[Manga] Naruto Chapter 592 Discussion

[Destined_Fate]

Well, Anko finally showed up again and... She's going to be used as a plot device still.

Hopefully this doesn't end with her losing her body to Orochimaru or dying.

[mystogan]

so Jugo and Suigetsu finally showed up, and just what did they gave sasuke,
and orochimaru is still alive!!,
sasuke is going to meet someone who knows everything, looks like sasuke is upto something big,
looks like things are taking a new direction

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Vindi89

Which wasn't believable at all now considering the stunt Kish pulled giving Orochimaru the ability to Edo summon 1st and 2nd Hokage. I'm sure he intends for Itachi>Orochimaru (especially since Oro's strength is Ninjutsu-weak against Sharingan user), but looking at what we know of the 1st Hokage now... you have to ask yourself why didn't Oro use him to deal with Itachi.

Back in the days I always supported the idea on how Orochimaru was way stronger than what readers gave him credit for, specifically because of Edo Tensei, many people back then understimated this Jutsu true capacities.

But, with Itachi and Sharigan was the use of Genjutsus and How Itachi could had just traped Oro into a Genjutsu and Make him release Edo Tensei, at least, that is one reason on why Oro could had tought Itachi was stronger.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Shining Celebi

Where before he was basically a match for the First with Enma, even as an old man, we now know that the First was actually a jillion times stronger than anything he revealed in that fight. Heck, back then Orochimaru was a top-tier ninja who could paralyze Kakashi with fear from his killing intent alone.

there is definitely some power level changing going on between these characters, but kishi has done a pretty decent job of covering it up with retcon material imo, starting with the explanation kabuto told deidara about the differences between his and oro's ET which accounts for the 1st and 2nd being weaker than normal. also, don't forget that characters like kakashi kept training and vastly improved after the destruction of konoha arc while orochimaru just stagnated and got sicker with the loss of his arms and techniques and then had to settle on an inferior body (at least compared to the highest level shinobi bodies) he did fight toe to toe with 4tails naruto in that body after after all so he wasnt really weakened story-wise. sasuke just absorbed him at his weakest state.

i do agree that sarutobi was downgraded post timeskip but i was still never under the impression that he was better than minato even back during the first series. and no one ever said he was inferior to the 2nd. its just the 1st who's been blown out of proportion

Originally Posted by Rurik

But, with Itachi and Sharigan was the use of Genjutsus and How Itachi could had just traped Oro into a Genjutsu and Make him release Edo Tensei, at least, that is one reason on why Oro could had tought Itachi was stronger.

itachi was always way stronger than orochimaru from the beginning of both character arcs and orochimaru knew this. that is why he hunted a younger weaker sasuke. it was the only way he could compete with itachi. itachi's training as a child shocked an adult orochimaru. itachi was just on another level completely

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

since it happened back when oro was in akatsuki it is reasonable to assume that he didnt even know ET at that time. maybe he researched ET and got the 1st and 2nd dna because of how weak he was in that instant vs itachi and he realized he needed to use other ninja's powers to fight superninjas like itachi and sarutobi.

Plausible, but still doesn't explain why he feared Itachi after developing it.

also, itachi usually doesnt even let his opponents attack unless they are super strong. he always starts fights in control with sharingan. oro didnt have a chance from the second itachi sensed his intent

Except you're forgetting that Oro doesn't even need to be within Itachi's sight to have an Edo Zombie fight him. And are you insinuating that Itachi only LETS super strong people attack? How sportsman like of him.

If I had to analyze Itachi I would say that he was given a way overpowered ability Tsukuyomi that no one could fight against. Gai really should have been able to but Kish loves Itachi too much for that. But notice how that ability ended with his death. Not even uber Madara is using that ability on the kages right now because for readers its no fun to have a bad guy look at the opponent and for the fight to be over. I bet if Kish could change things he would have toned that ability down alot (evident by its omission in other Uchiha fights).

Originally Posted by Rurik

But, with Itachi and Sharigan was the use of Genjutsus and How Itachi could had just traped Oro into a Genjutsu and Make him release Edo Tensei, at least, that is one reason on why Oro could had tought Itachi was stronger.

Same thing here, he didn't need to be near Itachi to have an Edo Zombie attack him. Its pretty clear that Kish never intended for the 1st to be the powerhouse he's hyped to be now, especially when he had Itachi say 'only someone with a sharingan can defeat me' back then (which obviously isn't true).

[DarthDestroiar]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

itachi was always way stronger than orochimaru from the beginning of both character arcs and orochimaru knew this. that is why he hunted a younger weaker sasuke. it was the only way he could compete with itachi. itachi's training as a child shocked an adult orochimaru. itachi was just on another level completely

Nothing more to add.

[Nintendo]

with whats her face still with her curse seal, does this mean that oro is infact voldermort and the curse seal is his Horcruxes?

[HasuMasu]

^ Well he certainly has the looks and snake motif down.

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by Nintendo

with whats her face still with her curse seal, does this mean that oro is infact voldermort and the curse seal is his Horcruxes?

Doesn't Sasuke still have his Cursed Seal as well? I don't recall him ever losing it.

Still, it's a shame Anko is made off to be so weak since she was said to have just as much potiential as a young Sasuke when she was a kid.

Seems like they'll use her to bring back Orochimaru or at least use her body, cursed seal, to temporary bring him back so they can ask him questions. Or they're just bringing her along because our peaceful giant might just think she's hot.

Or they use Kabuto to bring Orochimaru back or put Orochimaru in his body. Considering that he's more snake than man now, though he calls himself a dragon, he would make a very good host for Orochimaru.

Or Sasuke will just use some hax to bring him back for questioning.

[james0246]

^When Orochimaru escaped from Sasuke's body he took the curse seal with him. So, Sasuke does not have a curse seal any longer (though his body is still changed from the experience, as evidenced by Juugo being able to graft his skin on Sasuke's body).

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

itachi was always way stronger than orochimaru from the beginning of both character arcs and orochimaru knew this. that is why he hunted a younger weaker sasuke. it was the only way he could compete with itachi. itachi's training as a child shocked an adult orochimaru. itachi was just on another level completely

I think the training part is anime filler. Either way is not a question what was said 400+ chapters ago, is what is been shown now, Im not questionng if Itachi was stronger than Orochimaru.

Originally Posted by Vindi89

Same thing here, he didn't need to be near Itachi to have an Edo Zombie attack him. Its pretty clear that Kish never intended for the 1st to be the powerhouse he's hyped to be now, especially when he had Itachi say 'only someone with a sharingan can defeat me' back then (which obviously isn't true).

Im not even thinking about the first, if Oro could summon 3 different Kages would had still proved a difficult task because they cant be killed.

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by james0246

^When Orochimaru escaped from Sasuke's body he took the curse seal with him. So, Sasuke does not have a curse seal any longer (though his body is still changed from the experience, as evidenced by Juugo being able to graft his skin on Sasuke's body).

Ah, thanks for refreshing my memory. It seems like so long ago. Still, they could bring Orochimaru back through so many ways and none of them looks like it well end well for Anko unless she can get away beforehand provided she wakes up.

[mystogan]

okay orochumaru is back, but wasn't he permanantly sealed away into itachi's susano, using that special sword can't remember it's name, or it was just a part of orochimaru that was sealed away.

Now kabuto does have orochimaru's cells inside him, but that's pretty much to gain orochimaru's abilities, i don't think his life form will be inside him too, and kabuto is under genjutsu already, so can't really think orochimaru would pop out of his body

May be orochimaru's existance is linked with the masked man, cause in the manga they did show a shot of him at the end

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by mystogan

okay orochumaru is back, but wasn't he permanantly sealed away into itachi's susano, using that special sword can't remember it's name, or it was just a part of orochimaru that was sealed away.

It's power inflation apparently, the main characters can do more stuff as time passes, now Sasuke can even reach Orochimaru apparently.

It could be that Itachi gave the sword into which Orochi is sealed to Sasuke, that would make Sasuke's perfect susano a beast that's even better than Madara's susano, having an amaterasu-sword in one hand and the Totsuka sword in the other hand.

Anyway, even if Orochi comes back he will probably be just Sasuke's bitch.

One could say that Sasuke's thinking now probably resembles that of the younger son of the sage of 6 paths, by that i mean that his objective is probably shifting from the mindless rage against Konoha to the idea that this world must be ruled by power. That can be called the 3rd power. The other one is Naruto who is similar to the older child of the sage of 6 paths. Then there is Tobi who seems to be the one who wants to end the world as we know it, by having the 2 other powers annihilate each other. Maybe Tobi was some enemy of the sage of 6 paths and he wants to destroy the ninja world which was the sage's creation. And both the older and younger sons of the sage were part of that, so he wants both sides to die. So if Tobi was the enemy of the sage then he could even be the spirit of the 10-tails as some people already speculated, or he could be from his family/clan (my favourite is if he and the sage were both from the Uzumaki clan), or both if he was a human but made of himself a 10-tailed monster (Orochi made a snake of himself to gain power and immortality).

[Marsala]

You guys are missing some implied information in the chapter about Orochimaru.

1. Sasuke realized that Orochimaru was still alive and was "the one who knows everything" when he read the scroll with the plan to control the war/whole shinobi world. So Sasuke recognized something in the scroll that Suigetsu didn't, something that Orochimaru absolutely had no business knowing which implied he was still alive.

2. Sasuke is leaving the cave to find Orochimaru, even though practically every theoretical method of Orochimaru's true return is still in the cave. Kabuto and his snake? In the cave. Anko and her curse seal? In the cave. Sasuke himself? In the cave. If Kabuto found one of the snakes that escaped Itachi's Totsuka and Amaterasu and grafted it to himself, that snake is in the cave! If Sasuke wants to summon Itachi back with Edo Tensei in order to release Orochimaru from the bottle, he could force Kabuto to do it using Anko as sacrifice. EVERYTHING is in the cave!

So why is Sasuke leaving the cave? Not only does he know that Orochimaru is still alive, he also knows that Orochimaru is currently someone who is not in the cave. We just have to figure out who and where that someone - who "knows everything" about the clan and village - is.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Marsala

1. Sasuke realized that Orochimaru was still alive

He didn't realize that he is alive, he realized just how much Orochimaru has discovered about the secrets of the world. Sasuke simply wants to extract information from Orochi, and he simply said that Orochi didn't vanish, which doesn't mean that Orochi is alive. For example Naruto meets his father and mother and they give him a lot of information, but that doesn't mean they are alive.

Originally Posted by Marsala

Orochimaru absolutely had no business knowing which implied he was still alive.

Orochimaru knowing secrets doesn't imply that he's alive. It imlied for Sasuke that he has to meet Orochimaru in order to be able to answer the questions that Sasuke made in the 1st pages of this chapter.

Originally Posted by Marsala

2. Sasuke is leaving the cave to find Orochimaru, even though practically every theoretical method of Orochimaru's true return is still in the cave.

The only theoretical method to return someone to life is to return his soul in the living world and give it a body to be in. So Kabuto, Anko, etc. do not matter if Orochi's soul cannot be returned. And Orochi's soul is sealed in Itachi's sword. So there's nothing in the cave that is important for Sasuke, since he doesn't want to revive Orochimaru, he just wants to extract information from him. Unless you believe that Orochimaru has become something like Agent Smith in the matrix, that is he can make copies of himself (of his soul in this case). But in the Naruto-world a soul cannot be copied, thus humans are unique.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Unless you believe that Orochimaru has become something like Agent Smith in the matrix, that is he can make copies of himself (of his soul in this case). But in the Naruto-world a soul cannot be copied, thus humans are unique.

Considering Orochimaru's lost arms, a soul can obviously be split (Voldemort style). So, who knows what Kishimoto has cooked up for some more Orochimaru action...

(Personally, I though Sasuke would use Anko's curse seal, specifically the chakra that Orochimaru injects into the seal. I expected some sort of 'reunion' similar to Naruto meeting his father and mother (who both left a smidgin of chakra behind in Naruto infused with their personalities and memories). But, since Sasuke is leaving, it is unclear what he will do.)

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Vindi89

Plausible, but still doesn't explain why he feared Itachi after developing it.

because as we recently saw, even ET doesn't cause fear in itachi. he broke free from ET, defeated ET nagato, then beat the user of the technique with little trouble. breaking free was the only tough part, but that's not really part of this conversation since itachi would be alive in these cases. and to top it off, kabuto's ET was way more powerful than what orochimaru was capable of. kabuto had an army of superninjas, all fighting at their peak powers and he was in a remote distant location. itachi is just a beast. orochimaru knew that ET wasn't enough. he thought that an uchiha body in sennin mode was necessary

Except you're forgetting that Oro doesn't even need to be within Itachi's sight to have an Edo Zombie fight him.

actually he did need to be near the fight. orochimaru's ET required his full control of the ET ninjas. we can't assume that he had the telepathic vision and control ability that kabuto had

And are you insinuating that Itachi only LETS super strong people attack?

not what I meant. I just meant that only very powerful ninjas like nagato would be able to even get a move in on itachi in a fight. we saw how strong people like deidara and orochimaru were beaten before the fight even began when itachi is serious. he was ready with kisame too when they first met on the bridge, but kisame had a good idea who he was dealing with and soon became his bitch instead of a rival

If I had to analyze Itachi I would say that he was given a way overpowered ability Tsukuyomi that no one could fight against. Gai really should have been able to but Kish loves Itachi too much for that.

it is a very powerful technique, but it can be broken by some of the more poweful ninja. sasuke broke it pre-MS after all. also, itachi did respect gai. he told all of akatsuki not to take him lightly

But notice how that ability ended with his death.

not sure what you mean. nobody else has been said to have that technique. its not like sharingan genjutsu is gone and its basically the same thing just less powerful, like what sasuke used on B, C, Danzo, etc...

Not even uber Madara is using that ability on the kages right now because for readers its no fun to have a bad guy look at the opponent and for the fight to be over.

We don't know if madara even knows that technique, but he did put raikage under a genjutsu rather easily with a clone. the reason he hasn't used genjutsu much is because he's fighting 5 opponents who can break each other out. it may also be less fun for him. he seems to prefer actual carnage over mind rape

sharingan staring fights have happened many many times in the series. i enjoy them, others dont. kishi obviously does but he also likes and needs to change things up from time to time or it will get boring

I bet if Kish could change things he would have toned that ability down alot (evident by its omission in other Uchiha fights).

i disagree. it was used quite a bit and makes perfect sense as a MS ability. moreso than other powers. and when it was omitted, it was usually replaced by far more powerful (and kinda dumb) ocular powers like izanagi and izanami. kishi actually toned it up

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by james0246

Considering Orochimaru's lost arms, a soul can obviously be split (Voldemort style).

Copying and splitting are very different things. Splitting would also mean that the original one lost part of it's soul, and then Orochimaru should have lost his arms regardless of how many body switches he does. Regaining his soul-arms by switching bodies was kinda stupid.

To answer questions about copying and splitting we would have to define what is a soul and does it need to have a unique personality (memories, consciousness, will, and whatver else we can call the properties of a mind). That is what defines the mind of a person. I would tie it to the soul. But we see that chakra also can have a will of it's own, as we see when kage bunshins can think on their own, and they think of themseves as a real person thinks of himself. But there should be a distinction because a kage bunshin knows that he is a kage-bunshin, the distinction can be that it remembers the act of his creation, that is when the original created him by using the jutsu. And so a kage-bunshin is not afraid to die, since it considers itself as only a part of the original, also when it suicides (dispells itself) then it's memory returns to the original. Then there were the clones of Minato and Kushina in Naruto's body, these were copies of the mind of Minato and Kushina, but just chakra copies and not the real thing. So the mind of a person resides in the soul, and the mind can be copied just like the body by using chakra, but those copies are not the real thing because the chakra is slowly consumed and these go away.
That is why i wrote that for the real return of Orochimaru the soul is needed, and it is unique, it cannot be copied, neither can the body.

BTW the recording and movie industry would be so happy if perfect digital copying of their music and movies would not be possible Movies being downloaded from the internet would decay and vanish over time, only the originals would exist Funny thing is they made advertisments suggesting that digital copies are broken

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

because as we recently saw, even ET doesn't cause fear in itachi. he broke free from ET, defeated ET nagato, then beat the user of the technique with little trouble. breaking free was the only tough part, but that's not really part of this conversation since itachi would be alive in these cases. and to top it off, kabuto's ET was way more powerful than what orochimaru was capable of. itachi is just a beast. orochimaru knew that ET wasn't enough. he thought that an uchiha body in sennin mode was necessary

I really hate when a simple conversation turns into a wall of text and that's exactly what's happening here. You're diverging on numerous tangents and ignoring the point of my statement. I'm not even going address most of what you said because its irrelevant and I don't agree with it anyways. I would like to refrain from calling you biased Itachi fanboy but you're making it really hard with some of your statements. Itachi broke out of ET by LUCK, defeated Nagato with help, defeated Kabuto with help. None of it was easy or by skill alone.

As beastly as you think Itachi is, he couldn't stand toe to toe with the 1st Hokage as far as he's been hyped up to be. Orochimaru could have been far OR near. Kept his eyes closed... look in the other direction... whatever pleases you... and still have the 1st Hokage wipe the floor with Itachi. That's the point I was making.

On the other issue of Tsukuyomi, you proved my point for me, there has been no other Genjutsu based attack as powerful as it since Itachi's death. The others you mention carry a high price and can never be used multiple times without an even higher sacrifices (killing numerous Uchihas and stealing their eyes). Tsukuyomi is an Genjutsu that hits instantly and give Itachi complete control over your perception of time and apparently only another Sharingan of sufficient power or Rinnegan user could stand up to it. Do you really think if this ability was passed onto Sasuke that anyone could been him with EMS spamming this over and over again? He'd look at the world and win...