Log Horizon - Episode 13 Discussion / Poll

[Tenzen12]

I mentioned NES (not game console) cause it has transit between medias. FR doesn't have such thing.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by aohige

*snip*

I really have to agree with aohige on this one. I suppose some people like the virtual reality explanation because it feels more "reasonable", but when you actually examine the mechanics of it, it's entirely unreasonable. This isn't like Sword Art Online where VR was an existing technology that everyone was familiar with. The mere existence of THAT kind of technology would be fantastical in our world.

You then get into the issue of how hundreds of thousands of people were transported from their homes and into a location where they could be hooked up into VR sims. This either involves Star Trek teleportation, or an army of ninja's with knock out drugs simultaneously kidnapping hundreds of thousands of people world wide and moving them undetected to hidden VR sim stations. At a certain point you realize this is all just as absurd as getting transported to an alternate reality.

Perhaps the most *mundane* explanation is that this IS a sophisticated virtual reality simulation prison inside a hyper sophisticated computer...but due to the logistical problems of kidnapping hundreds of thousands of people, it's most likely that only a tiny handful of Adventurers were actually kidnapped, and that the hyper majority of Adventurers were AI simulations like the People of the Land.

Originally Posted by monir

Point taken. However, let me ask you this,.... how is alternate universe scenario is any less "Haruhi level of madness" than a virtual copy? For me, I'm not yet ready to dismiss any theories yet considering every theory requires a significant stretch of the imagination to accept that world.

Because the VR idea is the weaker theory.

Alternate world theory
-Pro: Our senses tell us we're in an alternate world
-Con: No idea how we got here

Virtual reality theory
-Pro: Nothing
-Con: No idea how we got there

All the VR theory does is nitpick the alternate world theory by postulating that "maybe" our sensory input isn't reliable. It's a big old "proving a negative" conundrum. It's a fascinating *theory*, but with no active proof, why should anyone take it seriously?


edit: There's also the fact that the Virtual reality thing isn't a particularly useful explanation for the Elder Scrolls in particular. Once you start taking the Snow Globe theory to it's natural conclusion, there's no particular reason to assume that the world the Adventurers previously lived in was real either. Ethereal alien space bats could just as easily fake the modern day world as they could the World of Elder Tales.

Originally Posted by WhiteJoker

then the equally ludicrous "there's a secret society using Elder Tales to create a perfect virtual world with AIs" is just as valid.

That actually sounds more ludicrous. Why the heck would a nefarious organization with access to mass Teleportation and Strong artificial intelligence bother being a "secret society", rather than overt global overlords? People with god like power don't try to hide their activity from insects.

A fantasy world based on an MMORPG (complete with Adventurers who use user interfaces) is fantastical, but not THAT outrageous once you've factored and accepted the hypothetical potential for infinite numbers of different alternate realities. At least the world is internally consistent.

[Johaocarl]

Well, everyone is throwing crazy hypothesis and not using spoiler tags, so I will throw my crazy hypothesis.

In the distant future, after the end of our civilization, the Alvs had a very advanced technology that is not different from magic. They are similar to the "Humanity Has Declined" faerie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanity_Has_Declined). But now there are only half-alvs, so we can presume alv civilization too fell.

The alvs, before fell, used a "spell" for capture people from the past and send them to their world. That are the adventurers.

So, the adventurers are living at our world, but at a distant future. Alv "magic" too made the adventurers be immortal.

There is no way to return to our world, that ruins everyone see around are our world...

[monir]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Elder Tale world theories, speculation and discussion (spoilers)

In this thread we debate the world of Elder Tale. Where did it come from? Is it a real world? If not, who created it? Why? How did the players get caught up in this mix? How is the world changing after the Catastrophe?

Be it theories, wild speculation or facts, this is the thread for such debates.

Warning: Since it's virtually impossible to get into the nitty-gritty details without diving into the novels, this thread will contain heavy spoilers. Anime watchers, beware.

Good title. The thread, however, is going to be spoiler free. This discussion is interesting because there are people who are speculating about the world based on the anime. The novel readers will have to walk a tight rope by not spoiling or hinting anything and can only dispute/disagree with any theories from the information that are available in the anime. It would be a good place for everyone to poke their head in and say their piece about the Elder Tale world.

Anyway, I'll copy some of these relevant posts from this thread and kick start that thread.

edit: Thread's up.

[Roger Rambo]

One other thing to consider about the VR simulation theory. If we're going into the territory of postulating about all sensory input being false from this being a simulation...why isn't scrutinizing the Adventurers memories equally valid? If you have the ability to create sophisticated artificial intelligence and virtual reality, why can't false memories be in the equation?

How can the Adventurers know they ever had lives in our world? Perhaps they really ARE just automatrons that inhabited this world, who somehow were imbued with artificial memories and personalities. That certainly would mesh with the People of the Land's perspective from before the Apoc.


So yeah. Adventurers should be careful about going down the rabbit hole deciding certain things aren't real out of hand.

[hamazura]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

One other thing to consider about the VR simulation theory. If we're going into the territory of postulating about all sensory input being false from this being a simulation...why isn't scrutinizing the Adventurers memories equally valid? If you have the ability to create sophisticated artificial intelligence and virtual reality, why can't false memories be in the equation?

How can the Adventurers know they ever had lives in our world? Perhaps they really ARE just automatrons that inhabited this world, who somehow were imbued with artificial memories and personalities. That certainly would mesh with the People of the Land's perspective from before the Apoc.


So yeah. Adventurers should be careful about going down the rabbit hole deciding certain things aren't real out of hand.

so everyone is like protagonist of fate/EXTRA where he is actually an AI?

[Sheba]

Back to episode 13. In the beach scene, Marielle and Shou were seeing lots of bubbles from underwater. Does it hint at the fishmen seen in the OP?

[Marina2]

I know this isn't important but I just want to know..

Question to novel readers or anyone who can read end credit: Were two princesses(?) who joined Crusty and Princess Raynesia near the end have names? and who are their VAs.

[LKK]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Back to episode 13. In the beach scene, Marielle and Shou were seeing lots of bubbles from underwater. Does it hint at the fishmen seen in the OP?

That's my guess. To be honest, I couldn't tell exactly what they saw in the water. But since whatever they saw was in the water, I assumed it was related to the OP's fishmen.

[Johaocarl]

Originally Posted by Marina2

I know this isn't important but I just want to know..

Question to novel readers or anyone who can read end credit: Were two princesses(?) who joined Crusty and Princess Raynesia near the end have names? and who are their VAs.

Daughters of nobles. Probably barons,but japanese culture will consider them "hime", princesses. Raynesia is a graunddaughter of a duke (above baron and just bellow a king) and I think european culture will consider her a princess.

So, if the landers have an eurpean culture, only Raynesia is a princess, if the landers have japanese culture all that girls are princesses.

[Johaocarl]

Originally Posted by LKK

That's my guess. To be honest, I couldn't tell exactly what they saw in the water. But since whatever they saw was in the water, I assumed it was related to the OP's fishmen.

Sahaugin. A D&D mob. It's a better name than "fishmen".

[Ickarium]

I'm just waiting impatiently for the 'back to back badasses' moment in the opening with Isaac and Krusty.

As for the sorcerer at the end, he's the mystic of a lake, and there was tons of fog after he teleported in. My guess he uses water magic, and as a side effect of his spell, he pulled the water out of the plants, dehydrating them or something. So they shrivel.

[Kamui04]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

Perhaps the most *mundane* explanation is that this IS a sophisticated virtual reality simulation prison inside a hyper sophisticated computer...but due to the logistical problems of kidnapping hundreds of thousands of people, it's most likely that only a tiny handful of Adventurers were actually kidnapped, and that the hyper majority of Adventurers were AI simulations like the People of the Land.

But that would beg the question of how did they construct those AI adventurers, their thinking and memories? The handful of real adventurers have their friends on their list, if they start to ask questions among their friends they may poke holes. Lest not forget that originally they lived in a world closer to ours where such advanced AI or mind reading/brain scanning might not even exist.

And on another topic

With so many people just throwing theories out. I'll say the ET world is a conspiracy involving the chemtrails, vaccinations, the freemasons & the illuminati. And I bet Jesuschrist, Abraham Lincoln, Elvis and JFK are in the ET world hunting vampires. I think my theory is just as logical as many of the others proposed in this thread.

Joking aside, my take on the ET world is the multiverse one.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Kamui04

But that would beg the question of how did they construct those AI adventurers, their thinking and memories? The handful of real adventurers have their friends on their list, if they start to ask questions among their friends they may poke holes. Lest not forget that originally they lived in a world closer to ours where such advanced AI or mind reading/brain scanning might not even exist.

Responding to you in the spoiler free theories page, since this is a bit OT from the talk about ep 13 and adorable trolled princess.


I will say that the Freemasons sounds the most plausible theory to me.

[NorthernFallout]

I haven't really been a fan of Krusty up until now.

But now. Oh yes, he might just be my favorite male character because he's just trolling so hard. And the awesome armor helps a fair bit.

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by NorthernFallout

I haven't really been a fan of Krusty up until now.

But now. Oh yes, he might just be my favorite male character because he's just trolling so hard. And the awesome armor helps a fair bit.

This pretty much. Now that we're getting to see more characters, I'm really enjoying Krusty and his trolling. It makes me wonder what he did back home. Also, love your Krusty avatar.

[meh]

On the subject of what world really is Elder Tales, given the what we've seen so far, isn't it most likely to be future Earth? It seems to me by far the easiest explanation.

[jpwong]

Originally Posted by meh

On the subject of what world really is Elder Tales, given the what we've seen so far, isn't it most likely to be future Earth? It seems to me by far the easiest explanation.

I dunno, how would you explain the fact that the planet's surface area decreased to 1/3 of what it used to be while retaining it's shape? I mean it's possible, but the theory of parallel worlds or they've all been drugged and hooked up to the world's very first VRMMORPG as beta testers sounds way more likely.

[orion]

Originally Posted by jpwong

I dunno, how would you explain the fact that the planet's surface area decreased to 1/3 of what it used to be while retaining it's shape? I mean it's possible, but the theory of parallel worlds or they've all been drugged and hooked up to the world's very first VRMMORPG as beta testers sounds way more likely.

but....unless someone goes out, explores and documents their world, the exact available land mass hasn't been verified.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by jpwong

or they've all been drugged and hooked up to the world's very first VRMMORPG as beta testers sounds way more likely.

Don't you even realize how much of a logistic and media nightmare it would have been? You may come up with a lie to cover the disappearance of ten people in the same day, but hundreds of thousands?