Shakugan no Shana III - Episode 15 Discussion / Poll

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by Deathscyther

Yes, it's been confirmed (by Centerhill at least) that the creation of Xanadu will bring back the PoE that was consumed by the tomogara to this world and that the storm in the rift will die down. So the creation of Xanadu is a good thing indeed.

What Centerhill and Shana fear though is what happens after Xanadu is created. Virtually nothing is known about Xanadu. The only things they know is that Yuji said that it will be a copy of this world and that it would be a world specially for the tomogara. Since it will be a copy of this world, a world where the balance is in danger, wouldn't Xanadu face the same problems as this world? It will be a world made for tomogara, so this could mean that lots of PoE will be consumed/used. Wouldn't the balance over there be in danger this way?

This world, Guze and Xanadu will be connected. They will be part of a 'greater world'. So if the balance of one world crumbles, it might affect the other worlds as well. Creating Xanadu won't solve the problem. Xanadu would just become another world which could cause the balance of the 'greater world' to crumble. As Centerhill says: 'we will fight against the selfish mind creating a new, innocent world.' This is why Centerhill and Shana decide to stop Xanadu from being created...and this should be a good enough reason for all flame haze to fight, since they are fighting to protect the balance in the end. Now it's time for the other flame haze to make their choices.

I think Shana is 100% sure about her choice to stop Yuji's/SnH's plan. She doesn't seem to doubt her choice at all. She just isn't sure about how to stop this war, how to save Yuji and how to really solve the problem. Her goal is to make a path where she and Yuji can walk together (her Shana half), while protecting the balance (her flame haze half), after all.

When you have to constantly reassure that you're doing the right thing means that you're not. Then again it could just be a flaw in the script.

There's too many "what ifs", going through with war on a "what if" is irresponsible and reckless. A positive "what if" is, what if the denizens end up building their own countries, cities, etc, living out their lives. But they're immediately jumping the gun on the most negative outcome. I don't think the SoF is capable of creating human life, if he did, then he can just make people to consume PoE for eternity, then that'll just be a moral issue.

[Mad_Scientist]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

I don't think the SoF is capable of creating human life, if he did, then he can just make people to consume PoE for eternity, then that'll just be a moral issue.

He said Xanadu would be a complete copy of the world and would bear life. CenterHill also seemed to be concerned that Denizens would continue to eat humans in Xanadu. So I think humans will exist in the new world, though I'm not sure if they'll all be copies of the humans in the real world or something else.

That said, I don't think the Snake's plan is for the Denizens to just continue to eat humans in Xanadu, I believe Xanadu is supposed to provide Power of Existence without that being needed. But just because it is not needed doesn't mean it won't happen.

[Rising Dragon]

I doubt Yuji would've gone along with the plan if that were the case. Chances are the Power of Existence there will be tied with the Reiji Maigo and its Power-restorative capabilities.

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by Mad_Scientist

He said Xanadu would be a complete copy of the world and would bear life. CenterHill also seemed to be concerned that Denizens would continue to eat humans in Xanadu. So I think humans will exist in the new world, though I'm not sure if they'll all be copies of the humans in the real world or something else.

That said, I don't think the Snake's plan is for the Denizens to just continue to eat humans in Xanadu, I believe Xanadu is supposed to provide Power of Existence without that being needed. But just because it is not needed doesn't mean it won't happen.

Well just because it'll bear life, doesn't mean there will be humans. If anything the world would be a perfect existence if humans didn't exist.

[Mad_Scientist]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Well just because it'll bear life, doesn't mean there will be humans. If anything the world would be a perfect existence if humans didn't exist.

Well, if I was just going by the Snake's words, I wouldn't be as confident. But CenterHill mentioned the possibility of the Denizens behaving in the new world as they have behaved in the old, and how that could bring about disaster. The only thing I could imagine him referring to by that is eating humans: what else could the Denizens do in the new world that would cause problems?

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by Mad_Scientist

Well, if I was just going by the Snake's words, I wouldn't be as confident. But CenterHill mentioned the possibility of the Denizens behaving in the new world as they have behaved in the old, and how that could bring about disaster. The only thing I could imagine him referring to by that is eating humans: what else could the Denizens do in the new world that would cause problems?

Again he's going on assumptions, if this was a court hearing, he wouldn't be able to back it up. The "Sure this world would be saved, but what if so and so happen in the new world." is a very weak statement, I'm sorry only a child or radical would accept those words without question.

What I gathered from Flame Hazes as a whole (with very few exceptions) is that they're vindictive, self serving and very self righteous. I don't trust any of them.

[Mad_Scientist]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Again he's going on assumptions, if this was a court hearing, he wouldn't be able to back it up. The "Sure this world would be saved, but what if so and so happen in the new world." is a very weak statement, I'm sorry only a child or radical would accept those words without question.

What I gathered from Flame Hazes as a whole (with very few exceptions) is that they're vindictive, self serving and very self righteous. I don't trust any of them.

Come on now. The Snake said he would make a "complete copy" that would bear life, and CenterHill thinks the copy will have humans on it. Is that 100% certain? No. But it's not a ridiculous belief, as it does fit the Snake's words, so I think CenterHill is probably correct on this point.

It's not like the mere existence of humans in the new world would automatically make the Snake's plan bad anyways.

[Guido]

I think that for this episode the explanations were pretty much dense for me to understand even I have to go and rewatch for as many times deem necessary.

The rundown is that Centerhill along with the one of the Four Gods of the Motherland chose to interfere in the battle, because the would be creation of Xanadu by Serpent of the Ritual will entail the creation of a new world replenished with Power of Existence that once was consumed but will return into that world for Tomogara.
The gist is that Xanadu would become another sum of a world becoming part of an even greater world, and thus whatever catastrophe in Power of Existence affects Xanadu irrevocably would be affecting the balance of the rest of the Greater World: Guze + Earth + (Xanadu) + storm rift.

And, Centerhill clearly said that the Gods of the Motherland can only police the actions of whatever happens in the Earth, but not at the other side of the storm rift where Xanadu would be placed.
So, if the Tomogara go unchecked at Xanadu and do what they please with Power of Existence in that would be world of theirs, then there will be no stopping the universal balance of all the worlds from crumbling.

That said so, if I may add for best characterization of this arc, Samuel Demantius and Zinitra shared their last moments of companionship with epicness.

It was just to bad to witness the fall of a veteran hound, but Samuel exceeded his own expectations to save as many if not all the wounded Flame Hazes and buying time with his body and existence at the Tower.

Even if he only appeared just in this season and lasted for about more than 10 episode appearances, Samuel Demantius will always be remembered.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Guido

And, Centerhill clearly said that the Gods of the Motherland can only police the actions of whatever happens in the Earth, but not at the other side of the storm rift where Xanadu would be placed.
So, if the Tomogara go unchecked at Xanadu and do what they please with Power of Existence in that would be world of theirs, then there will be no stopping the universal balance of all the worlds from crumbling.

If that scenario is possible, then Yuuji should've noticed this as well (he's always been depicted as witty and excel at sensing loopholes and such). We know that Yuuji is doing what he's doing, which implies this scenario as unlikely.

Also, I've been thinking whether if what Yuuji had in mind is something like the subversion of the "even if it looks the same, it's not the same" trope which was often used as a protagonist's reason to reject temptation-illusory attacks. Perhaps with this reasoning, Yuuji thought that even if the other world is an exact copy down to the existence of individual humans, they are ultimately of no importance to the original world.

But there's also the line of reasoning of "everyone and everything is a special, unique existence" which could put a grayer moral standpoint to the existence of humans of Xanadu (which would be the denizens livestock). It depends on what things Yuuji is putting his priorities in.

Of course, all this is assuming that the PoE in Xanadu will exist as humans or other living beings. Maybe The Snake could simply flood PoE to Xanadu until the very air is saturated by it.

Though, the ultimate question remains, where will the energy to create Xanadu comes from? As long as the answer to this question remains unclear, or unsatisfactory, there is still a solid reason for the Flame Hazes to oppose The Snake imo.

[Deathscyther]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

If that scenario is possible, then Yuuji should've noticed this as well (he's always been depicted as witty and excel at sensing loopholes and such). We know that Yuuji is doing what he's doing, which implies this scenario as unlikely.

Also, I've been thinking whether if what Yuuji had in mind is something like the subversion of the "even if it looks the same, it's not the same" trope which was often used as a protagonist's reason to reject temptation-illusory attacks. Perhaps with this reasoning, Yuuji thought that even if the other world is an exact copy down to the existence of individual humans, they are ultimately of no importance to the original world.

But there's also the line of reasoning of "everyone and everything is a special, unique existence" which could put a grayer moral standpoint to the existence of humans of Xanadu (which would be the denizens livestock). It depends on what things Yuuji is putting his priorities in.

Of course, all this is assuming that the PoE in Xanadu will exist as humans or other living beings. Maybe The Snake could simply flood PoE to Xanadu until the very air is saturated by it.

Yuji/SnH said nothing about what will happen in Xanadu. Will humans exist there? Who knows. Since it will be a copy of this world, it's possible.

I too think that Yuji won't let the tomogara do what they want in Xanadu though, since he really hates the idea of humans disappearing and being forgotten. It's one of the reasons he started this plan in the first place. He's smart and has the god of creation working with him, so he has probably thought of a way to avoid this scenario.

But since the flame haze don't know Yuji personally and since he's working with the leader of the tomogara, who would believe him if he says that this won't happen. Even if Shana would believe him, she wouldn't be able to convince the other flame haze of this.

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Though, the ultimate question remains, where will the energy to create Xanadu comes from? As long as the answer to this question remains unclear, or unsatisfactory, there is still a solid reason for the Flame Hazes to oppose The Snake imo.

I agree. I know for sure that Yuji won't sacrifice humans for his plan, so he has to other way to do it. Maybe SnH's original body has enough PoE for the plan to work, maybe he'll use the Reiji Maigo in some way or maybe Hecate's 'unlimited' pool of PoE will be used. Maybe there's something in Misaki City (it being the maelstrom of warfare and all), since they're going there now.

But from the flame haze point of view....since they don't know how he's going to pull it off, they'll have to try and stop him. The real body of SnH entering this world already had an effect on the world, so who knows what will happen when he'll actually use his power.

All in all, there are still more than enough reasons for the flame haze to fight.

[klare]

one of the "4 gods" ended just like that, without even being showed how he die...

anyway, welcome back Margery

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by Deathscyther

Yuji/SnH said nothing about what will happen in Xanadu. Will humans exist there? Who knows. Since it will be a copy of this world, it's possible.

I too think that Yuji won't let the tomogara do what they want in Xanadu though, since he really hates the idea of humans disappearing and being forgotten. It's one of the reasons he started this plan in the first place. He's smart and has the god of creation working with him, so he has probably thought of a way to avoid this scenario.

But since the flame haze don't know Yuji personally and since he's working with the leader of the tomogara, who would believe him if he says that this won't happen. Even if Shana would believe him, she wouldn't be able to convince the other flame haze of this.



I agree. I know for sure that Yuji won't sacrifice humans for his plan, so he has to other way to do it. Maybe SnH's original body has enough PoE for the plan to work, maybe he'll use the Reiji Maigo in some way or maybe Hecate's 'unlimited' pool of PoE will be used. Maybe there's something in Misaki City (it being the maelstrom of warfare and all), since they're going there now.

But from the flame haze point of view....since they don't know how he's going to pull it off, they'll have to try and stop him. The real body of SnH entering this world already had an effect on the world, so who knows what will happen when he'll actually use his power.

All in all, there are still more than enough reasons for the flame haze to fight.

Whatever happened to settling things peacefully? I'm 100% certain considering Yuji's personality, he would like nothing more than to do so. If they'd simply ask Yuji about the details, there wouldn't be so many unnecessary deaths. But you know them flame hazes, shot first and never talk (except to insult).

[Mad_Scientist]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Whatever happened to settling things peacefully? I'm 100% certain considering Yuji's personality, he would like nothing more than to do so. If they'd simply ask Yuji about the details, there wouldn't be so many unnecessary deaths. But you know them flame hazes, shot first and never talk (except to insult).

Be fair to the Flame Hazes now, Yuji didn't exactly try and talk things out with the them either. He was planning assaults on their bases early on, and waited to proclaim the details of the Grand Order till after many battles had been fought. Even with Shana, he just said things like "I'm going to change your destiny and protect you!" without actually telling her how he planned to do that. And when he finally did proclaim the Grand Order, his Denizens continued to attack the panicked Flame Hazes.

Now, the implication the anime has given is that this was NOT what happened when the Snake was first sealed 3,000 years ago. There were at least two references to "the hunters the Snake invited" sealing him, or something like that. So I got the impression that 3,000 years ago the Snake tried to do things peacefully and it backfired badly for him. So I understand why he (and Yuji as a result) would decide to take the violent route this time. Still, it kind of sucks for the Flame Hazes of today to suffer for something ancient Flame Hazes did 3,000 years ago.

[Deathscyther]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Whatever happened to settling things peacefully? I'm 100% certain considering Yuji's personality, he would like nothing more than to do so. If they'd simply ask Yuji about the details, there wouldn't be so many unnecessary deaths. But you know them flame hazes, shot first and never talk (except to insult).

Even if the flame haze had asked Yuji about the details, I don't think it would have changed much. Just like now some would have been shocked at first, but after thinking about it more they'd probably have come to the same conclusion. Since protecting the balance is the mission of a flame haze, they'd have fought to protect the balance of the 'greater world'.

Yuji probably anticipated this and took action. Fighting the flame haze was probably inevitable. In order to make his dream come true, he had to do it this way.

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by Deathscyther

Even if the flame haze had asked Yuji about the details, I don't think it would have changed much. Just like now some would have been shocked at first, but after thinking about it more they'd probably have come to the same conclusion. Since protecting the balance is the mission of a flame haze, they'd have fought to protect the balance of the 'greater world'.

Yuji probably anticipated this and took action. Fighting the flame haze was probably inevitable. In order to make his dream come true, he had to do it this way.

We don't even know what the full details of Xanadu. The only thing we do know, is that it'll restore the current world. Everything else is mere assumptions. Pointing a weapon at someone due to a "what if" just makes you look bad.

It's like someone killing your dog because they're afraid of the possibility of your dog biting them.

[Mad_Scientist]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

We don't even know what the full details of Xanadu. The only thing we do know, is that it'll restore the current world. Everything else is mere assumptions. Pointing a weapon at someone due to a "what if" just makes you look bad.

It's like someone killing your dog because they're afraid of the possibility of your dog biting them.

You seem to be forgetting that Yuji has already been waging war on the Flame Hazes. It's not like he came to them and said "I have a plan to fix the world" and they responded with "DIE!"

Also, it restoring the current world is an assumption as well. Did you forget that the only one who said anything about something like that happening was CenterHill... the same person who believes that the Snake's plan will ultimately lead to disaster?

Yuji has been waging war against the Flame Hazes, and has not been very forthcoming with what he plans to do. Even now, he's not very specific about some aspects of his plan. He may have good reasons to behave like this. But regardless, this conflict is not some simple, black and white conflict where the Snake is obviously good in every way and all the Flame Hazes are all evil or stupid.

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by Mad_Scientist

You seem to be forgetting that Yuji has already been waging war on the Flame Hazes. It's not like he came to them and said "I have a plan to fix the world" and they responded with "DIE!"

Also, it restoring the current world is an assumption as well. Did you forget that the only one who said anything about something like that happening was CenterHill... the same person who believes that the Snake's plan will ultimately lead to disaster?

Yuji has been waging war against the Flame Hazes, and has not been very forthcoming with what he plans to do. Even now, he's not very specific about some aspects of his plan. He may have good reasons to behave like this. But regardless, this conflict is not some simple, black and white conflict where the Snake is obviously good in every way and all the Flame Hazes are all evil or stupid.

Of course there's a gray area in any conflict, but the creation of Xanadu is sound because of it's location. Yuji/SnH claimed it to be so, and CH confirmed it. He used the "maybe they'll wreck havoc on the new world the way they did this world." to bait Shana and the others into fighting.

[Mad_Scientist]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Of course there's a gray area in any conflict, but the creation of Xanadu is sound because of it's location. Yuji/SnH claimed it to be so, and CH confirmed it. He used the "maybe they'll wreck havoc on the new world the way they did this world." to bait Shana and the others into fighting.

CenterHill gave no indication that he was evil, petty, or ruled by hatred. Not in any of his interactions with other Flame Hazes, and not when he sacrificed his life. If he says he has concerns about the new world, then I feel his concerns are things he truly believes. He may be wrong, but at the very least he is honest in his beliefs.

At least that's the impression I got.

[Deathscyther]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

We don't even know what the full details of Xanadu. The only thing we do know, is that it'll restore the current world. Everything else is mere assumptions. Pointing a weapon at someone due to a "what if" just makes you look bad.

It's like someone killing your dog because they're afraid of the possibility of your dog biting them.

I don't really agree here. I find it logical for the flame haze to fight.

Indeed, nobody knows what will happen in Xanadu. Yuji only said that it will be a world for the tomogara and that it will be a copy of this world. So this means that it is highly likely that the same thing what's happening in this world (tomogara eating humans resulting in the balance crumbling) will happen over there as well. Yuji/SnH said nothing to deny this. So the flame haze have to take this into consideration.

Since every world is connected, if something were to wrong over there, in time it would become problem of this world as well. Yuji's/SnH's plan won't solve the overal problem. The balance of the 'greater world' would still be at risk, just as it is now. The problem would just be shifted to another world. Since Yuji/SnH said nothing about this matter, even when he tried to make the flame haze stop fighting in episode 14, it seems to me that he has no answer/solution for this. I think he would have said something about this otherwise.

In the end the flame haze (well in this case Centerhill and Shana) decided not to risk it. There are still things that could go wrong when creating Xanadu, even though Yuji/SnH says it won't go wrong. So why risk the destruction of the world, why create a new world if the overal problem won't be solved. There are just more reasons to fight than reasons not to fight, I guess.

[Key Board]

Remember, that Yuji didn't propose a ceasefire after the speech. He just told them that their duty is over (and they should just shut up and die)

He's just as guilty of letting the conflict drag on

Though to be frank, I think the denizens would keep on attacking anyway.
They have too much bad blood with flame hazes.

But I agree that Flame Hazes not asking about the details are strange

In fact. it doesn't make sense. If they hate denizens so much and have every reason to doubt them,
why would they take Snake's words at face value and scatter like cockroaches?

If Iran said they discovered nuclear fusion and thus, ending the world's energy problem would the US take it at face value?