[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Workworkwork]

Like I said, sympathy points.

Not to mention she's like, the only character in Umineko that wears pantyhose aww damn where are all the Erika foot fetish images Japan

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by Workworkwork

Like I said, sympathy points.

Not to mention she's like, the only character in Umineko that wears pantyhose aww damn where are all the Erika foot fetish images Japan

I think Natsuhi wears them too... and Lady MARIA.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

This is why Ep5 is such a fucking farce. I know it's intended to be, but if Ryukishi wasn't as talented as he is, I'd be a lot angrier that we seem to be forced into accepting this.

Furthermore, Dlanor's red only works if Erika is actively looking for secret passages.

Invasion Entrance X can exist so long as the detective does not look for it, which Battler NEVER did in previous Eps.

I don't think it's a farce, it's just that we haven't been told all the rules. The two players in EP5 are Bern and Lambda, so it's only natural that we don't know all the rules and everything that went on during the first play-through of the game. If they made a rule at the beginning of the game that Erika could find all secret passages, then it's just like a chess piece. No one complains that a queen can move all the way across the battlefield instantly to capture a castle when most real queens were not capable of such a thing (as far as I know...) Seems to me like they just added a few rules that ruin the spirit of Beato's game, but not the actual game itself.

[luckyssol]

I agree. Ronove was able to see how they were playing the game before Battler was there and said it lacked love and was dishonorable.

Dlanor explained some problems to Battler when they were outside the game board:
-Dlanor gave Cornelia the red text to guard that window but she couldn't use it.
-Bern and Lambda were playing like they didn't know Kinzo was already dead.

I think that the game board for episode 5 is still under Beatrice's rules but the players are not playing the game the way it was intended to be played.

Beatrice's rules:
-Only red/gold truth can be trusted regarding events of the game board.
-All blue truth must be countered by red truth before the game ends.
-During the game an attempt must be made to murder people according to the epitaph.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

I don't think it's a farce, it's just that we haven't been told all the rules. The two players in EP5 are Bern and Lambda, so it's only natural that we don't know all the rules and everything that went on during the first play-through of the game. If they made a rule at the beginning of the game that Erika could find all secret passages, then it's just like a chess piece. No one complains that a queen can move all the way across the battlefield instantly to capture a castle when most real queens were not capable of such a thing (as far as I know...) Seems to me like they just added a few rules that ruin the spirit of Beato's game, but not the actual game itself.

But the real world doesn't work this way. The meta-world is conceptual, it should have no actual effect on reality.

All the things Erika said she did and we're told is capable of doing, breaks willing suspension of disbelief entirely. It's just stupid.

I'm sort of inclined to side with Jan-Poo and believe that the real world we're shown in Ep5 isn't the real world at all.

[ijriims]

From the extra TIPS "Bernkastel letter", Bern said that the Rules X, Y and Z were like this:

1. Rule X: it pointed to the heart of the witch. Just like in Higurashi, the fact that "the incident started after the festival and Rika died whatsoever" pointed to a plot and suspects behind the scene. In Umineko, the killing started from 4th Oct and finished at the end of 5th Oct while no one was able to survive in the end normally was the situation. The heart of the witch is the identity of Beatrice.

2. Rule Y: In Higurashi, people got killed in the violent ways and different people became murderers in different conditions. This pointed to the truth of Oyashirou: Hinamizawa Syndrome. In Umineko, even though people were killed in different order, the killing was accorded to the epitaph. Rule Y pointed to the nature and motive of serial killing.

3. Rule Z: In Higurashi, Sonozaki family was posed as culprit behind all previous deaths. In Umineko, magic and Beatrice confused the exact nature of Rule X and Y. Bern said that while Rule Z in Higurashi is fixed (like a maze with fixed structure), rule Z in Umineko is indefinite but still take a form (a maze changing its structure in each episode.

(The three rules are my interpretation, anyone could interpret them differently.)

Interestingly, the letter seemed to be writing to an entity even higher to herself (to Hanyuu? or to Rika?). She stated also that Beatrice was close to that entity and suffered from the same "disease".

Spoiler for Bern's letter (translated by someone else):

小冊子

コミックマーケット７４で配布された小冊子の抜粋です。
原文そのままなので誤字もあります
[編集]前文

■この小冊子は、『うみねこのなく頃に』エピソード３をクリアされた方を前提にしています。


　先に読んでもよくわからないだけです。
　どうかぜひ、エピソード３を終えてからお読み下さい。


　読んでもいいけど、どうせ意味、わかんないわよ…？
　まぁ、エピソードを終えてから読んでも、どうせわからないと思うけど。
　くすくすくす。



ベルンの手紙
Bern's letter
　親愛なる友へ。
To my beloved friend

　お元気ですか、というお約束的な挨拶は、今の貴方にはきっと皮肉。
　だからこう聞く方がきっと親切。
　まだ生きてる？親愛なる友よ。
'Are you feeling well?'; such a conventional greeting would most certainly sound like sarcasm to you now.
That's why it'd be more kind of me to ask like this.
Are you still alive, my beloved friend?
　先日はお返事をありがとう。
Thanks for the reply the other day.

　まさか貴方に、未だ筆を取るだけの気力が残っていたとは驚きです。
　まぁ、返事を書くように促したのは私なのだけれど。
　それでも貴方が、私の為に筆を取るだけの気力を奮い起こしてくれたこと自体がとても驚き。
あるいは奇跡。
I got very surprised that you still had energy to at least write to me.
Well, the one who urged you to write an answer was me, though.
Even so, the fact that you mustered energies to at least write for me, for my sake, was a great surpise.
Or a miracle.

　そして貴重なる助言をありがとう。
　私も貴方の意見に同感。
多分、黒幕はラムダデルタ。
　あの子は私に復讐するためだけに、私ともっとも相性の悪い魔女を見つけ出し、私が誘き出され てくるのを待 っていたのでしょう。
　まんまとあいつの罠にはまったわけです。
　…なるほど。
それが可笑しくて貴方は筆を取ったのかしら。
貴方の意地悪な笑い顔が、手に取るようにわかるわ。
And also, thanks for the valuable suggestion.
I agree with your opinion too.
Perhaps, the wire puller is indeed Lamda-Delta
That girl probably found a witch who has the worst affinity with me just to take revenge on me and awaited for me to be lured.
And I fell to her trap like a duck.
... I see.
I guess this is so ridiculous it made you write to me.
I feel you're wearing your malicious smile.

　ただ、貴方の病気を考えると、私にとって彼女は貴重な存在かもしれない。
　彼女が私よりもはるかに高位の魔女であるならば、つまりそれは、それだけあなたの病気に近い ということ。
　つまりそれこそが、貴方を、いえ、私たちを蝕む病気から逃れる唯一の方法であり、彼女はそれ を実践してい るということ。
…そして皮肉にも、彼女はそれを私に教えてくれているということ。
　まぁ、どうでもいいことかもね。
でも、あの子の茶番に付き合うことで、貴方の病気が少しでも快方に向かうのならば。
どうかぜひ、私に力を貸してほしいの。
But, when I think about your disease, maybe she is a precious being to me.
If she is a much more high ranked witch than me, it means that that is very close to your disease.
In other words, it means that that is the only way to escape from the disease that eats into you, no, into us, and she is putting it into practice.
... And ironically, it also means she is teaching it to me.
But, if by getting on with that girl's farce, your disease will get better.
I'd like you to please lend me your strenght.

　ラムダデルタは、このゲーム盤に私は“絶対”に勝てないと豪語している。
　その時点で逆説的にルールＸは判明しているの。
本当に馬鹿な子ね。
　つまり、物語が常に６月２０日から始まるようなもの。
恐らくこれが、ベアトリーチェなる魔女の心臓部でしょう。
Lambda-Delta boasted that I will 'absolutely' not be able to win in this game board.
At that time, I paradoxically identified the rule X.
She's really a stupid girl.
In other words, it's like the story that always starts from June, 20th.
Probably, this is the core of the Witch Beatrice.

　なるほど、だとするとこのベアトリーチェという魔女は確かに面白い。
　私もあの子も、そして貴方も知らなかった世界を、彼女は切り拓いている。
　それを魔法の根源とするルールＹ。
　ラムダデルタも少し触れたようだけど、彼女の域には到底及んでいない。
　もしこれこそを魔法と呼ぶならば、ベアトリーチェを除き、私たちは誰一人魔女などと名乗れな いに違いない わ。
　その意味において、自らの魔法体系を組み上げた彼女は、魔女としては初心の部類に入りながら も、その域は 魔女をすでに凌駕して、…貴方の域にまで踏み込み掛けていると言えるかもしれない。
　もし彼女がそれを強く意識し、理解したならば。
　私は愚か、ラムダデルタさえも足元には及ばない。
……そして多分きっと、貴方と同じ病に冒されることでしょう。
　しかしそれにしても、実に面白い。
このルールＹこそが、魔女ベアトリーチェの存在そのものではないかと見ているの。
Indeed, if we consider it that way, this Witched named Beatrice certainly is interesting.
She opened up a world that I, that girl and you didn't know.
The rule Y that makes it into the source of the magic.
It seems Lamda-Delta touched it a bit but too, but she can't possibly reach her level.
If we call this very thing as magic, except for Beatrice, certainly no one of us can be called a witch.
In that sense, we may say that since she put together her own magic system, even if she enters the begginers class, as a witch, her level already surpasses the witches, ... and she is starting to step even into your level.
If she were strongly aware of that and comprehended it.
Not even Lamda-Delta would be a match for her, and I even less.
And most probably, I'll be afflicted from the same disease as you.
However, even so, this is really interesting.
I see this rule Y as the very existence of the witch Beatrice.

　そう。
ここまでは私も解析できた。
　そしてもう一つ、ルールＺがあるのは間違いないの。
　だってルールＸとＹだけでは説明できない現象が余りに多数、観測されているから。
That's right.
I managed to analize so far.
And certainly there's one more rule, the rule Z.
Because the number of phenomenona being observed that can't be explained with rules X and Y alone is way too big.

　ルールZの正体は不明。
　ラムダデルタの言動から探るに、どうもこの要素が私にとって致命的に相性が悪いものの様子。
　“それ”がヒントなのだとしたら、……いったい何なのかしら。
Rule Z's true colours are unknown.
By Lambda-Delta's speech, it seems that this component has a lethally bad affinity to me.
If we take 'that' as a hint, ...... what on eath would it be?

　私は取り合えずこのルールＺを、真相から煙に巻く、迷路的な存在だと仮定してみた。
　つまり、ルールＸとＹに私を近付けまいとする迷路ね。
For now, I assumed that this rule Z is a maze-like existence putting haze over the truth.
In other words, a maze to not let me come close to rules X and Y.

　私の力は、百年を掛けて迷路の全ての分岐を確かめて地図を書き上げるのに似ている。
　つまり、どんなに複雑な迷路であろうとも、いつかは必ず攻略できるということ。
（ちなみにラムダデルタの場合だと、出口に辿り着くまで、千年を掛けようとも右壁に沿って歩き 続けるような ものなのかしら。
いいえ、出口まで一直線に一切回り道をせず、全ての壁に穴を開けて通り抜けていくような感じね ）
My power is just like writting up a map, making sure of all the forks of the maze, spending a hundred years.
In other words, no matter how complex is the maze, one day, I'll certainly be able to walk through it.
(By the way, if it was Lambda-Delta, I guess she'd just keep on walking along the walls until she arrived at the exit, even if it took a thousand years.
No, it feels more like she would cut through all the walls, by making holes, in straight line, until the exit, without taking detours at all.)

　そんな私と“相性の悪い迷路”とは一体何…？
　考え付くのはひとつしかない。
　つまり、……地図を書いていくことが意味のない迷路。
　例えば、ぐにゃぐにゃと常に形を変える不定形の迷路とでも言えばいいのか。
　なるほど、この概念なら、ラムダデルタの言うジャンケンでも説明できるかもしれない。
…私の力でも攻略できない迷路でも、壁を貫いてゴールに向かえる彼女にはまったく障害ではないわ けだし。
What on earth would be such a maze with bad affinity with me...?
There's only one thing I can think of.
In other words, ...... it is a maze where it's meaningless to write maps.
Would it be alright to say that, for example, it is a maze of indefinite shape, that constantly changes the shape, flexibly?
I see, if it is this general ideal, I may be able to explain it with the Jan-Ken-Po game that Lamda-Delta speaks of.
... Even if it is a maze I can't walk through with my power, it must not be an obstacle for her, who can go towards the goal through the walls.

　……概念では理解できるの。
でもルールとして捉えようとすると、全く理解ができない。
　だってルールとは本来、不変なものでしょう？
　不定形なるものがルールであるなんて、私の知る常識を超えている。
　固体でなければならないのに、液体である一面を持つなんて。
……まるで水銀ね。
　水銀はラテン語で“生きた銀”。　
そして不老不死に通じると信じられ、錬金術師たちの研究対象として珍重された。
　皮肉ね。
つまりはまさに、彼女の自称する魔女や錬金術につながるということ。
　このルールＺが解けない限り、……いいえ、解けないからこそ、ベアトリーチェはまさに魔女で あるというこ と。
... I can understand through this general idea.
But, if I try to grasp it as a rule, I can't undestand it at all.
Because, originally, rules are immutable things, right?
Indefinite things being rules are beyond my common sense.
Even though it should be solid, it possesses a fluid face.
...... Like mercury.
In latin, mercury means 'living silver'.
They believed it lead to perpetual youth and it was highly valued as research object of the alchemists.
It's ironic.
In other words, it links to the alchemy and the witches, as she calls herself.
Unless I can unravel this rule Z, ...... no, just because I can't unravel it, Beatrice will be exactly a witch.

　……あぁ、ここまで書いていて腹立たしくなっていったわ。
　あなたはここまでを読んで、絶対に笑っているわ。
えぇ、賭けてもいい。
　そろそろ私の困り顔を見て、さらに嘲笑ってやりたくなってきたころでしょう。
...... Aah, after writing so much, I got irritated.
If you did read until here, you must be laughing.
Eeh, you can bet.
Very soon you'll want to sneer at me even more after seeing my troubled face.

　近いうちに貴方のところへお見舞いに行くわ。
　見舞いの品は私。
好きなだけ嘲り笑うといい。
好きでしょう？そういうのは。
　だから久し振りの友人を迎える為に、どうか生き返ってちょうだい。
Before long, I'll go to pay you a visit.
The get-well gift will be me.
You can sneer at me as much as you want.
You like it, right? To do that.
So, so that I can meet a friend I haven't seen for so long, please, revive.


　　　　　　　　　　まだ親愛であると信じている貴方の友人　　　ベルンカステルより
From Bernkastel, your friend who still believes to be dear to you



Then there's a lot of text of Ryuukishi talking about anti-fantasy x anti-mystery
The some babbling with Beatrice and Ronove.

And then, some poems.



愛とは幻想、勘違い。
相思相愛とは、互いに愛されているという相互の勘違い。
そして婚約とは、その勘違いから生涯目覚めないことの誓いである。
　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　────Ｒｏｎｏｖｅ

Love is an illusion, a misunderstanding.
Mutual love is a mutual misunderstanding of being mutually loved.
And engagement is a vow to not wake up for your whole life from that misunderstanding.
Ronove



彼の部屋からいろいろなものが見付かった。
それらの証拠から、私はあなたに愛されていると推論できる。
Many things were found from his room.
From those evidences, it is possible to deduce that I am loved by you.

私の部屋からいろいろなものが見付かった。
それらの証拠から、私もあなたを愛していると推論できる。
Many things were found from my room.
From those evidences, it is possible to deduce that I also love you.

彼女の部屋から何も見つけられなかった。
しかし未発見の浮気の証拠Ｘの存在を、私は否定できない。
　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　────Ｆｒｅｄｅｒｉｃａ　Ｂｅ ｒｎｋａｓｔ ｅｌ
Nothing was found from her room.
However, I can't deny the existence of an undiscovered evidence X of unfaithfulness.
Frederica Bernkastel

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by Maho Momo

I think Natsuhi wears them too... and Lady MARIA.

Yeah, but Erika is a likelier candidate because she's like, 16 years old with a flat chest.

[Jan-Poo]

I'd like t to know how chrono and Ssol interpret the "lack of love" Ronove is talking about.

In other words, what is this love Ronove is talking about? Certainly a game where people get killed in gruesome ways doesn't look like something a person would define "filled with love" in a conventional sense. You can't even think there is respect or care for the characters seeing at how Kanon was mocked in Ep3 or the Jessikanon and George+Shannon scenes of Ep2. What love is there for people who get their faces completely smashed or get their stomaches open and filled with sweets?

I think there is only one possible interpretation, and that's the one Dlanor explains. "Love" in this case is the bond of trust that is created between the writer and the reader. It naturally goes both ways, the writer must create a story for the reader to use and the reader must have faith that the writer isn't "cheating".
The definition of what is "cheating" and what is not is expressed by the Knox rules themselves. As Dlanor said, her father created those rules for this very reason.

In conclusion, imho, if a story is solvable then there is love, if a story isn't solvable then there's no love. But Lambda's game shows no love as stated by Ronove. This is why I say Lambda's game is not solvable. Not because "I gave up", but because saying that is solvable goes against what it is said in the story itself.

[Jellyfish Marine]

Is it only me who read Bernkastel's letter and was somehow reminded of BT-san? ;_; *sobs*

Ryukishi-san is really trying to wreck our brains throwing references to Higurashi here and there. I guess that beside from solving the murder, how higu and umi relate to each other (or whether they have any connection at all) is a mystery he throws in for us to solve...or just to distract us?

I am interested in Battler's new status as a GM at the end of EP5 and how it will affect his final game with Beatrice (assumes that there will be one). If the GM status is kept until that time then we will have 2 GM playing against each other, freely modifying the game board per turn as they wish? (Something like Beato carrying out the murder VS Battler saving everyone?)

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by Jellyfish Marine

Is it only me who read Bernkastel's letter and was somehow reminded of BT-san? ;_; *sobs*

Ryukishi-san is really trying to wreck our brains throwing references to Higurashi here and there. I guess that beside from solving the murder, how higu and umi relate to each other (or whether they have any connection at all) is a mystery he throws in for us to solve...or just to distract us?

I am interested in Battler's new status as a GM at the end of EP5 and how it will affect his final game with Beatrice (assumes that there will be one). If the GM status is kept until that time then we will have 2 GM playing against each other, freely modifying the game board per turn as they wish? (Something like Beato carrying out the murder VS Battler saving everyone?)

...Battler TOOK OVER Beato's position as GM.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I'd like t to know how chrono and Ssol interpret the "lack of love" Ronove is talking about.

In other words, what is this love Ronove is talking about?

It was covered in the prologue.

I already gave two specific examples in my previous post.

Here is the text from the game:

Spoiler for ”Episode 5 Text”:

Originally Posted by ”Virgilia”

They’re using the same game board, so they couldn’t do anything this child couldn’t do. However, they could do things that she wouldn’t do.

Chess pieces exist for the sake of playing chess. You couldn’t use them to play cards. That is something you ‘cannot do’. However, you could use one to stab your opponent in the eye, or scratch lines in the chessboard. Those sorts of things aren’t impossible, but they would be a disgrace for any player to carry out. People ‘wouldn’t do’ those things.

Then Ronove came and Battler asked how the game was going. He then made the “It lacks love” comment. Battler asked him what he meant by love and he said that to a man it would be dishonorable.

Originally Posted by ”Ronove”

At first glance, I feel it appears not dissimilar to milady’s game. However, its foundation is quite different.

Originally Posted by ”Battler”

They’ve changed the rules from Beato’s game?

Originally Posted by ”Ronove”

No, the rules remain unchanged. It would seem that Lady Lambdadelta understands milady’s set of rules expertly. However…

あきらめないで下さい！ Please don't give up

[Tyabann]

All those lines mean is that we can trust the red we're given: Not that the game is solvable in any way.

You can still write an unsolvable mystery using the same, classic, Knox-approved techniques... the way to do it is to not give out enough information to the reader.

[chronotrig]

Alright, here's that gold text theory that I keep going on about:

Spoiler for gold text theory:

Spoiler for The Game Board:

The game board is the set of possible worlds within each game.

Before the game starts, we have the infinite kakera that represent all possible worlds (see Higurashi). The goal of the game is to find one single kakera that explains the events that occur on Rokkenjima.

The game is only concerned with kakera that fit inside "The Cat Box of Rokkenjima", which is a set of all possible things that could have happened during the time the island was closed off by the storm. During this time, it was impossible to witness anything on the island from any place outside the island, which is what leads to the Schrodinger analogy.

This means we can eliminate all kakera which differ from the story before the game start time. For example, Kinzo is dead before the game starts, so he must be dead in every game because his death could be "witnessed" before the cat box closed over the island. Any kakera with Kinzo alive in it cannot be part of the game. The set of remaining kakera (those which weren't eliminated) can be considered the game board.

However, if we follow Higurashi's example, truly random events do exist, so there are many possibilities within the cat box. To pick out a single kakera, all opposing kakera must be eliminated. The laws of cause and effect and the laws of physics still apply within each kakera, so kakera which are self-contradictory or contain magic cannot exist.

Spoiler for The Gold Text:

Gold text is a way of creating a true fact within the game.

The first rule of the game. Anything said in gold text must be true in any valid kakera after the gold is used. In other words, saying something in gold eliminates all kakera which contradict it from the game board. For example, saying "Kinzo's corpse was at location X at time Y" in gold eliminates all kakera where his corpse was somewhere else at that time.

As Lambda says to Battler, "I see, that thing you're thinking of doesn't contradict any of the previous red in this trial". In other words, gold text must not contradict other gold text or the start conditions of the game, because this would eliminate all kakera from the game board.

This includes both direct contradiction and indirect contradiction. For example, if you say "There is one master key in Natsuhi's room at 12:00", you can't later say "There are 5 master keys in the dining hall at 12:00" if there are only 5 master keys total. However, you also can't say "There are 5 master keys in Kuwadorian at 12:01" unless there exists some physically possible way to transport a master key across the island in less than a minute and someone with a reason to do such a thing.

Nothing stops the gold text from being tied to the meta world. For example, if the Game Master says in gold: "Everything the Game Master shows the player through the viewpoint of the detective must be true", then the Game Master must always show only things that are possible through the detective's viewpoint. In a sense, everything the detective sees would become gold truth automatically, so making him see something definitely false would contradict all possible worlds and eliminate all kakera from the game.

When Beato goes off to "set up the game board" in each game, she's actually saying a list of gold truths which define how the next game will turn out.

Spoiler for The Red Text:

Red text is a way to inform an "observer" of the truth.

The red text is used to facilitate the game. You can say anything with the red text as long as it is true for all kakera on the game board.

So anything that happened before the game start time can be spoken of with the red ("Kinzo is dead at the start time for all games"). Anything spoken with the gold can also be spoken with the red, but only after the gold has been used. Also, anything that must be true given the current set of gold text and the laws of cause and effect can be said with red text (after the previous gold text example, you could say "There are less than 5 master keys in Kuwadorian at 12:01" in red if no such method of transport exists).

Simply put, the gold text changes the game board, but the red text merely describes the game board.

Spoiler for The Blue Text:

Blue text is a way to show your claim or viewpoint to an "observer".

While the gold text can whittle off large chunks of possibilities, the game cannot be won until a single truth is found. The blue text is a way to propose a version of this single truth. Absolutely anything can be said with the blue text, but the blue text has no meaning unless it explains all the events of a particular game.

The blue text is only a claim that one person makes to another (an observer). It can be destroyed when overwhelming evidence (like red text) which denies it is shown to the observer. When it is successful, it has 2 separate uses. These are actually the same thing, but look different because they occur in different contexts.

The first use of the blue text is when the Game Master "sets up" the game board. This is "the Game Master's truth" and is no more or less than the story we read. The events shown to Battler in EP1-4 are all of this sort. While it is technically possible to include any amount of lies in this viewpoint, keeping it as close to real as possible is part of the "art" of the game. However, if the gold text specifically limits the blue that the Game Master can use to set up the game, the Game Master cannot use blue which would eliminate all possible kakera. (It may also be true that other rules limit what the Game Master can show the player. Still working on this part.)

The second use of the blue text is at the end of the game. These are "the players' truths" and represent the theories of each player. A player "wins" the game only if they have constructed a blue truth which follows all possible red text at the end of the game AND explains every major event in the game. If two players construct a blue truth like this, it is then left to a verdict, which decides which of the two theories is more likely. If no self-consistent truth can be found for a game, then it starts over from the beginning again. The details of what happens after someone "wins" a game are currently unknown, but the kakera selected by the game is presumably given some significance, possibly becoming the "real world" for the player in question.

Spoiler for Magic:

Uso da!!!

As Battler guesses in EP5, magic is a code word for lies. This is incredibly apparent in the future and past scenes of EP4, where Ange and Maria create comfortable lies in an attempt to ease their suffering and loneliness. We can describe these kinds of lies as "white magic". The letters in the bottles from 1998 are an example of lies created to hurt or confuse, or "black magic".

In the beginning of EP3, when Virgilia fixes the vase with "magic", she claims that a witch of her caliber can only use magic that lasts a short time. In other words, the lie she told: "This vase is not broken" only lasted as long as it took for her to find a convenient cat to place the blame on. A lie which would last for eternity, or the Endless Magic, would have to be about a situation whose events could never be viewed and whose result was shrouded in mystery. In other words, a lie about the contents of a perfect cat box. The reason Beato holds the title of Endless Witch is because she is the master of Rokkenjima's cat box.

Magic can only be seen if everyone who supposedly observes it lies about it. If anyone else sees the same event and doesn't play along with the lie, the lie fails and so does the magic.

A note about magic. Because magic is a lie, it cannot be used to create a valid truth. Therefore, the magic side, which claims that the crimes were carried out with magic, is always playing to lose. In this sense, it seems likely that Beato only ever claimed witches exist as a way to force Battler to think and solve the crimes. In other words, Beato's motive from the beginning has been to teach Battler the rules of this game and have him solve the mystery. She might have been forced into doing this in a roundabout way by Lambda herself (like the rule about Ange not telling Battler her name). Because Beato has effectively "won" EP1-4 (or at least EP1-3) by preventing Battler from creating a valid theory for everything, the games have always repeated. It seems likely that the only way to break the cycle around Rokkenjima (hence チル) is for someone to finally create a complete theory.

Sorry it's so ridiculously huge, but I think it explains all pretty much everything about the game, and it's actually pretty simple once you get it.
So far, no one has been able to discount it yet, and I haven't heard a different theory which explains everything. Though it does have a few weaker points.

[luckyssol]

I wonder if gold text really existed prior to episode 5...

Originally Posted by Battler

You can't trust anything, you can't trust any words that aren't red...!!

However, I think your theory is great. Very impressive work. It definitely sounds like the rules for the gold text... from episode 5 onward.

If it existed prior to to episode 5 then the previously quoted red next binds it to be untrustworthy. There could not have been a rule that said "Gold text is trustworthy" because then the red text Battler used would have been impossible.

Gold text was created in episode 5. The exact rules of it are unknown but it is similar in some aspects to red text.

I think Chronotrig's theory works as a good explanation for now though.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Ssol

I wonder if gold text really existed prior to episode 5...



However, I think your theory is great. Very impressive work. It definitely sounds like the rules for the gold text... from episode 5 onward.

If it existed prior to to episode 5 then the previously quoted red next binds it to be untrustworthy. There could not have been a rule that said "Gold text is trustworthy" because then the red text Battler used would have been impossible.

Gold text was created in episode 5. The exact rules of it are unknown but it is similar in some aspects to red text.

I think Chronotrig's theory works as a good explanation for now though.

Spoiler for size:

Well, the theory doesn't really work unless the gold text existed first, since that sets up the rules of the games. It's possible that gold text created red and blue text in the first place, but not the other way around.

Also, Battler says you can't trust anything that isn't red. However, anything said in gold can then also be said in red (in fact, hearing it said in gold should be enough evidence for anyone to say it in red themselves), so I don't see any contradiction. He says you can't trust 赤くない言葉 or non-red words, and a gold sentence is also a red sentence by definition.

Plus red text doesn't automatically apply to all games, and Battler himself didn't hear any gold text in EP4. The line can also be translated "I can't trust anything, I can't trust any of the non-red words...!!"

Edit: Or, let's add on a third reason: Battler personally couldn't trust anything said in gold because didn't know about that rule. It's very possible for someone to say something true that still has low credibility from a certain point of view. If Battler blindly accepted anything said in gold without knowing what it was, he'd be outright stupid. Unless the rule about the gold was confirmed by red text. You see my point.


In any event, Dlanor trusts the gold text at the end of EP5, so I seriously doubt that line of red text applies here at all.

Oh, and thanks for reading it

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Also, Battler says you can't trust anything that isn't red. However, anything said in gold can then also be said in red (in fact, hearing it said in gold should be enough evidence for anyone to say it in red themselves), so I don't see any contradiction. He says you can't trust 赤くない言葉 or non-red words, and a gold sentence is also a red sentence by definition.

Ah, since they both represent the truth, 赤き真実　＝　黄金の真実？ That effectively gets around that red truth of Battler's.

That makes it possible that the gold truth has been around from the beginning and Battler just never saw Beatrice use it. If he didn't learn how to use it from Beatrice then how did it learn to use it?

Since Battler is the new game master he will need to use it to setup the new game. Then we will know all the rules. (Hopefully in episode 6)

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

*gold text theory*

I'll think about this more tomorrow, but I will say this:

Sure, magic is lies. But the way you're putting it, they sound like magic lies.

Basically, magic exists conceptually rather than in reality, right? But the way gold text seems to work, it still has to effect reality on some strange metaphysical level.

It reminds me a lot of how stuff in the Nasuverse works, actually.

[Jan-Poo]

Chronotrig's theory is sound and very interesting, but I still think it is overly complicated.

My personal idea of the gold is a little different.

It certainly is something that only the Gamemaster can use and the game master creates the games so it is perfectly logic to assume that the gold can be used to "create" the game.

However I believe that gold is only limited to the gameboard and can't have any effect outside of it.

Red on the contrary can be used for any event that is real. We have proof that it has been used to affirm things that happened in a distant past.

This is exactly why, imho, Battler could not say in gold that "Kinzo died before the game", because that's an event outside the gameboard, however he could say that (here, right now) there is Kinzo's corpse.

This kind of interpretation clearly explains why gold is by no means superior than red, matching with what Dlanor said.

To translate it in actual facts, when Battler said in gold that "this is Kinzo's corpse" he created inside the game a situation where he found "without a doubt" Kinzo's corpse.
At that point Dlanor couldn't counter anymore, because that became the reality inside the game. The proof of that event happening was provided by the gold itself.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

I'll think about this more tomorrow, but I will say this:

Sure, magic is lies. But the way you're putting it, they sound like magic lies.

Basically, magic exists conceptually rather than in reality, right? But the way gold text seems to work, it still has to effect reality on some strange metaphysical level.

It reminds me a lot of how stuff in the Nasuverse works, actually.

Spoiler for size:

I'm not sure where you're coming from, so sorry if this is a bit off...
In each individual kakera, "magic" does not exist. When people hear and believe a lie about magic, they might think magic was used, but it wasn't really used because magic is impossible.

We only see magic because Beato includes it as part of the Game Master's Truth when constructing the game.

Also, the colored texts don't count as magic because they can only select kakera, not change them. In other words, whatever the final kakera at the end of the game ends up being, it must have existed from the very beginning. The game is merely a way of finding that world which already exists.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Spoiler for size:

Chronotrig's theory is sound and very interesting, but I still think it is overly complicated.

My personal idea of the gold is a little different.

It certainly is something that only the Gamemaster can use and the game master creates the games so it is perfectly logic to assume that the gold can be used to "create" the game.

However I believe that gold is only limited to the gameboard and can't have any effect outside of it.

Red on the contrary can be used for any event that is real. We have proof that it has been used to affirm things that happened in a distant past.

This is exactly why, imho, Battler could not say in gold that "Kinzo died before the game", because that's an event outside the gameboard, however he could say that (here, right now) there is Kinzo's corpse.

This kind of interpretation clearly explains why gold is by no means superior than red, matching with what Dlanor said.

To translate it in actual facts, when Battler said in gold that "this is Kinzo's corpse" he created inside the game a situation where he found "without a doubt" Kinzo's corpse.
At that point Dlanor couldn't counter anymore, because that became the reality inside the game. The proof of that event happening was provided by the gold itself.

Spoiler for size:

While I agree my theory looks complicated, it's actually pretty simple if you can accept the basic premise: you start the game with a large set of kakera and whittle it down to a single possible one. This premise is also the only part of the theory which isn't directly supported (I think) with evidence from the game. It might look like I made some of that stuff up off the top of my head, but there's actually a reason behind each and every line.

Also, it...uh...sounds like your theory is basically the same as mine Strictly speaking, gold is used to change the game while red is used to confirm certain facts. Since you can't change anything before the game starts, it makes sense that you wouldn't normally use gold for anything that occurs before the game. Whether or not there's a rule against using the same gold twice doesn't really change the theory much.

Oh, but in this case, there's another reason: if Battler didn't confirm that that corpse was Kinzo's, he wouldn't have been able to prove that he wasn't the detective later on (because Kinzo is the only person who can't be mistaken by sight). So he wouldn't have wanted to use the gold text to say just "Kinzo is dead" anyways.

[Jan-Poo]

Well it's just a small difference, it's not like what I said completely goes against your theory, but the way you have put it looks like red is based on gold, which imho ins't a general rule, though inside the game it might work that way, but merely because gold sets a "truth" inside the game, not because red itself depends on gold. That's how I see it.