[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[k//eternal]

The other question is, why doesn't he just tell him? He seems to have a chance to do so.

[Tyabann]

I always figured that Rudolph was the one to make the switch, and that he's referring to Battler and Kyrie being extremely, extremely pissed at him when he says he'll "probably be killed".

Not everything has to be sinister or deeply connected to the murderers.

[Marion]

My issue: Why would Kyrie willing give her child to Asumu, the woman she has hated for over 18 years. It makes no sense for her to do so.

As for Rudolf being behind it, I can't see it either. I'm pretty positive that he married Asumu because of obligations to take care of her child. Like Kyrie said - if she gave birth and not Asumu then Rudolf would have broke off the engagement and simply marry her. Whether he would carry an affair with Asumu or not is something that may be beyond answering, but fact is he married Asumu because she gave birth. Or so it seems.

I think that a hospital error occurred and Asumu accidentally received Kyrie's child. It's not too uncommon to hear about people now in their 40's finding out their parents aren't biologically related to them, due to clerical errors. The hospital at one point told Rudolf about it (being the one who impregnated both women and all) and Rudolf didn't have the heart to tell Asumu about it or Kyrie.

[Tyabann]

I'm saying that Rudolf switched the children because he wanted Kyrie's son to inherit the title of "Ushiromiya", and all that would imply. He may also have given the other child to Kinzo for whatever Kinzo-is-crazy reason.

I'm also suggesting that neither of them actually had a miscarriage.

But that is a bit far-fetched, and your theory works better, so...

[Knicknevin]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

I'm saying that Rudolf switched the children because he wanted Kyrie's son to inherit the title of "Ushiromiya", and all that would imply. He may also have given the other child to Kinzo for whatever Kinzo-is-crazy reason.

I'm also suggesting that neither of them actually had a miscarriage.

But that is a bit far-fetched, and your theory works better, so...

If Rudolph wanted Kyrie's son to be a legitimate heir, he would have married her, right? Why the cloak and daggers approach? On the other hand, we know the Sumaderas have a vested interest in the Ushiromiya fortune.

Also...I'm simply not going to accept that it's just a coincidence that Rudolph dies first in 3 of 4 games when we know he has a secret that 'will probably get him killed if he tells it'. Or that Asumu and Kyrie's babies were switched by some clerical error. That's not the sort of thing that makes you feel your life is in danger.

And so what if Kyrie hated Asumu? We know she was 'envious' of her, but perhaps that was because she knew Asumu was raising her real son, and she couldn't do anything about it. Kyrie isn't the head of the family. If the elders told her to do this, she might not have any room to refuse. Hell maybe she really wanted to marry Rudolph in the first place but this was the only option available to her.



Regardless. What the secret is wasn't as central as the idea that Rudolph dies early in almost every game because of this secret. And we can probably narrow the list of suspects by looking at the games in which he doesn't die. Beyond that, we probably can make some suppositions about this secret by looking at the game where Rudolph might have told it to Battler. He certainly had the opportunity.

Also. I can think of two reasons Rudolph is only bringing this up now- If he learned this secret only recently (like from Kyrie's contacts) he may not have had any chances to bring it up. He might have found out right before they left for the island for all we know.

Or- this secret might have some significance to Rokkenjima, so he wanted to discuss it there.

[Renall]

Yet Rudolf has every opportunity to tell Battler in ep3. He doesn't. Why not? Or if he does, he's never shown telling Battler in ep3 or ep5. If it's so important, why doesn't he ever get around to it?

If it's important enough, the murders should only make him more eager to tell Battler. If it's not that important, it might make sense why he forgets. But if it's not that important, it's an odd thing to dangle over the reader.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Renall

Yet Rudolf has every opportunity to tell Battler in ep3. He doesn't. Why not? Or if he does, he's never shown telling Battler in ep3 or ep5. If it's so important, why doesn't he ever get around to it?

If it's important enough, the murders should only make him more eager to tell Battler. If it's not that important, it might make sense why he forgets. But if it's not that important, it's an odd thing to dangle over the reader.

Maybe Rudolf didn't think Battler needed the extra baggage.

I mean six people just died and then suddenly "your mom isn't your mom". I mean, it's not something appropriate to say. Timing is a big thing in this.

[Knicknevin]

Originally Posted by Renall

Yet Rudolf has every opportunity to tell Battler in ep3. He doesn't. Why not? Or if he does, he's never shown telling Battler in ep3 or ep5. If it's so important, why doesn't he ever get around to it?

If it's important enough, the murders should only make him more eager to tell Battler. If it's not that important, it might make sense why he forgets. But if it's not that important, it's an odd thing to dangle over the reader.

Well, remember that the siblings were in their conference all night. Once they finally decided to call it a night, they discovered the murders. Rudolph lives through the first twilight, so the opportunity was there, but the timing seems pretty bad for a heartfelt family discussion.

And we don't know what this secret is. Just as an example, let's say that Shannon is the real child born to Asumu and Battler is Kyrie's son. Telling Battler about this right after she's murdered seems pretty tactless.

The fact that Rudolph doesn't bring it up in Episode 3 might be a clue as well.

[Renall]

Is it possible Battler was told in ep5? There's a lot of suspect perspective there and Battler is not as reliable a witness as he was in other episodes. Had Rudolf told Battler in ep3, we'd be largely forced to accept it. But him not telling Battler in ep5 doesn't prove anything, as we can't be sure what Battler and the others really talked about at the conference.

And note, in ep5: Battler has found the gold (resolving everyone's financial problems), Kyrie and Rudolf are both still alive (indeed, everyone is right now), and everybody's together in the same place. Why didn't he take them aside then? Or let them know right away? Heck, he has the entirety of the 4th in every episode yet he never tells Battler and Kyrie about it until late in the night. What's he waiting for?

Or is it just not that important? I mean it's possible it really isn't anything major. But we know it's about his birth, which seems awfully important. Or at least worth mentioning at some point.

[Knicknevin]

Originally Posted by Renall

Is it possible Battler was told in ep5? There's a lot of suspect perspective there and Battler is not as reliable a witness as he was in other episodes. Had Rudolf told Battler in ep3, we'd be largely forced to accept it. But him not telling Battler in ep5 doesn't prove anything, as we can't be sure what Battler and the others really talked about at the conference.

And note, in ep5: Battler has found the gold (resolving everyone's financial problems), Kyrie and Rudolf are both still alive (indeed, everyone is right now), and everybody's together in the same place. Why didn't he take them aside then? Or let them know right away? Heck, he has the entirety of the 4th in every episode yet he never tells Battler and Kyrie about it until late in the night. What's he waiting for?

Or is it just not that important? I mean it's possible it really isn't anything major. But we know it's about his birth, which seems awfully important. Or at least worth mentioning at some point.

It seems odd that Rudolph would say something like 'If I tell you this, I'll probably be killed' if it was something mundane.

As for whether Rudolph told him or not... Well, Battler was in the mansion the whole time of the conference, so it would seem like there should have been a chance. If there wasn't... well, maybe someone present made it hard to talk about. Earlier I suggested Rudolph survived the third games first twilight because the person that usually kills him died. Comparing lists, that would make it appear that Shannon, Kanon and Genji are most likely the person or people threatening him.

Personally I think it'd be more interesting if Battler was told. But it could still be informative to think about why he wasn't.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Knicknevin

It seems odd that Rudolph would say something like 'If I tell you this, I'll probably be killed' if it was something mundane.

It's Rudolf... I don't think he's capable of taking very much seriously. He was probably exaggerating.

[TheDarkLatias]

I've Never Played The Games, So I Wouldn't Know About Any Of This...Heh

Are The Games Any Good?

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

It's Rudolf... I don't think he's capable of taking very much seriously. He was probably exaggerating.

I don't think an 18 year secret that can possibly cause Battler to leave home and Kyrie to get beyond angry at him is something not serious.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by TheDarkLatias

I've Never Played The Games, So I Wouldn't Know About Any Of This...Heh

Are The Games Any Good?

they are awesome if you ask me, 'though I wouldn't really call them "videogames". They are more like multimedia novels with music sounds and graphic, the game part is more about trying to solve the riddles which happens outside the product itself.

[Judoh]

Isn't Kyrie alive in episode 3 past the 1st twilight? Could it be possible that the reason Rudolph doesn't tell Battler his secret about his birth in episode 3 is because he wanted to tell it to him when he's alone? I'd suspect that Kyrie doesn't know it either. If she knew that he was switched at birth she probably would've told him anyway.


@Renall Everyone was holed up in the dining hall in that episode, and they were in survival mode too. So it probably wasn't a good place to talk about it. In fact I guess you could say that survival became more important than his secret in that episode. You need to keep a calm head in those situations. Rudolph's judgment could be: "If I told him now that dumb son of mine would be completely useless".

I don't think that this secret of Rudolph's has any relevance to the culprit. I think it might be red herring.

However it might also be possible that the topic of Battler's birth might bring up a completely different topic that somebody would be willing to kill for. We really don't know.

[Knicknevin]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Isn't Kyrie alive in episode 3 past the 1st twilight? Could it be possible that the reason Rudolph doesn't tell Battler his secret about his birth in episode 3 is because he wanted to tell it to him when he's alone?

Hmm. That is possible. But when Rudolph mentions it in Episode 1, he talks about it to both Battler and Kyrie, saying he wants to talk to the two of them about it. Thats why I've been assuming it's something Rudolph knows but Battler, and presumably Kyrie, does not. The hook about Rudolph getting in touch with some snoops we saw in Episode 5 makes me suspect that this might be something Rudolph only learned recently. He certainly didn't learn anything useful to use against Krauss, did he? He already knew Krauss's businesses were failing one after another.

Still, maybe he wanted to get the two of them someplace private and never got the chance.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

It's Rudolf... I don't think he's capable of taking very much seriously. He was probably exaggerating.

But he was killed... Doesn't seem like much of an exaggeration after that happens, now does it?

[Zork]

This is a few pages back, but I wanted to address it. Sorry that it's a bit off-topic from the current discussion.

Originally Posted by TeeHee

Are there any other theories out there regarding the chapel that work? So far, we have:

1) "Unlocked Chapel" Theory. (Incompatible with unlocking scene.)
2) "Additional Envelope" Theory. (Compatible with unlocking scene.)

For what it's worth, I actually have one:

Spoiler for A Third Chapel Key Theory:

There's a bunch of red text which more or less guarantees that the key in Maria's envelope was the key to the chapel, and that it sat in Maria's handbag until Rosa opened the envelope the next morning. To make any theory regarding the chapel work you have to get around all of this somehow, so I came up with this idea:

Rosa opened the envelope some time before she went to sleep that night, which would technically be that morning so long as it was after midnight. The culprit killed the others some time after this and then returned the key to Maria's handbag. Thus, when Rosa went to get the key after she woke up, it was actually the second time she had done so that morning.

Assuming this theory works, it's compatible with the unlock scene and anyone but the victims could be the culprit. Rosa is included, though it doesn't make much sense for her to go through all that effort to engage in a ruse which makes her look really suspicious.

The assumption about morning seems somewhat reasonable given that they go on about the changing of the day at midnight more than once through the series. The rest of the argument could go something like this: that night something prompted those involved in the family conference to investigate the chapel. Say, for example, they received another letter with the word "chapel" in it. Rosa figures out that the key is in Maria's envelope, takes it and uses it to unlock the chapel, and the meeting moves inside.

Then, like Rosa has done in both episodes one and five, she leaves the family conference before it's over. Some time later, the culprit swoops in, kills the remaining six, and then locks the chapel before returning the key to Maria's bag. She never mentions this previous visit because she doesn't want to further incriminate herself.

[Moogleking]

Here are my thoughts on the babies and why Rudolf thinks he will be killed.

First, Kyrie's baby died in a miscarriage. That is less than 20 weeks of pregnancy, so there is NO CHANCE the baby is alive.
You could say maybe she is lying about it for some unknown reason, or that the scene is totally false, but then you're basically eliminating hints without basing it on any clues.
Additionally, I don't think Battler being Kyrie's son really adds anything to the story. It is more of just a "Ok, so?" kind of thing.

Also, Rudolf probably does not think he would be killed over saying Battler is Kyrie's son.

It is pretty clear Kinzo got together with the original Beatrice and had Beatrice #2, the one who talks to Rosa in the flashbacks from when she was a child. Now, the timing of that event, Battler's supposed birth, and Natsuhi's flashback of receiving a childfrom Kinzo and it falling off a cliff are all too convenient.

What I think is likely is that Beatrice #2 had a child with someone and this child is the Battler we know. After Rosa got Beatrice #2 killed, Kinzo had an extra child, so he tried to give it to his eldest son who didn't have a child. Natsuhi, being crazy, pushed it off a cliff. Perhaps the servant died saving the child, we're not really sure what happens to the child from Natsuhi's account.

So now, Kinzo still has the child with nobody to raise it. He probably wants this child to be the heir, because it is from the Beatrice lineage. He approaches the next oldest sibling without a child, Rudolf. Rudolf has been two-timing it with Asumu and Kyrie (and maybe Beatrice #2!!!) and is probably about to get married to one of them.

As part of my grand theory, Kinzo does not like the Sumadera, so he doesn't like Kyrie and doesn't want Rudolf to end up with her. Kinzo may have approached Rudolf and Asumu saying that if they raised Beatrice #2's child, he would let her in the family. Kinzo probably said he would make sure to take care of their real child and raise it safely. He also may have promised that the child he is giving them is going to be the heir. The child he takes from Asumu, Ushiromiya Battler, would be raised by Kinzo in the Fukuin house under another name, Shannon?

I'd like to call attention to the scene where Beato has a flashback of Virgilia (Kumasawa) fixing a vase she broke. In this scene, she always mentions Grandfather's vase, Grandfather's mansion, Grandfather would be mad, etc. This would mean Beato is a grandchild? This pretty much guarantees Beatrice is one of 3 people: Maria, Jessica, or Shannon (who is actually a grandchild as well). Additionally, Kumasawa calls the person "princess", so I'm pretty darn sure it is a girl.

It's really late, so I've kind of lost track of where I was going. I'll stop here for now.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Moogleking

Here are my thoughts on the babies and why Rudolf thinks he will be killed.

First, Kyrie's baby died in a miscarriage. That is less than 20 weeks of pregnancy, so there is NO CHANCE the baby is alive.

Kyrie's baby died in a stillborn, not miscarriage. Trust the anime, trust me, unless you want to get wrong for the whole "who is Battler's real mother".

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by ijriims

Kyrie's baby died in a stillborn, not miscarriage. Trust the anime, trust me, unless you want to get wrong for the whole "who is Battler's real mother".

After so many changes that don't match the VN at all, I really doubt the anime is anything reliable.
The term used in the VN was 流産. Unless you claim it is abortion (which is unlikely considering Kyrie), there is little to no way to twist it.

stillbirth would have been 死産.