Senkaku/Diaoyu/Tiaoyutai/Pinnacle Islands dispute

[Ithekro]

Naw, they need something more advanced:

[ArchmageXin]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

Israel got actively attacked many times since 1948. I don't think what they are doing in Palestine is right either, but it is true that they are being attacked. What China is doing is simply ridiculous. A few rocks in the ocean? Really? It's obvious just a ploy to get the people pumped up while the 18th Party Congress stuff is going on.


The Cultural Revolution, Great Leap Forward, Anti-Rightist Movement, and such would all like a word with you. Those were even worse than the Japanese IMO who were at least just a foreign invader like the Mongols and would have at some point been repelled or assimilated. What the CCP totalitarian cult accomplished was internal societal rot. It's pretty messed up when famous authors are calling themselves names like "Don't Speak", to give a very recent example.

Chiang Kai-shek wasn't a very good leader but at least he wasn't willing to totally ruin national culture and heritage for the sake of his own power. If the Communists had somehow been the ones who escaped to Taiwan, the island would probably look like North Korea by now, but the KMT at least ended up allowing free elections and liberalization. The CCP on the other hand has somehow convinced people that dictatorship is a good thing.

That is a dumb argument, Chiang Kai-Shek ran off to Taiwan with much of the Chinese treasury then killed 30,000 people when they decided he was not worthy of leadership. Using your argument, if he was still in power in China, he would drown the nation in blood as well.

As for the rock in question, if it is just a rock, why the heck the west is so hot on it? Especially since Taiwan want it as well (In fact, Chinese internally are blaming the communist leader ship for failing to take a harder stance....especially since Taiwan was willing to pick a fight with Japan but its far larger brother was not willing)

[Ithekro]

In the current political climate, the United States picked its friends and enemies a long time ago. The US was supporting the Nationalist Chinese against the Japanese prior to World War II as the legitimate government of China. They continued to support Nationalist China after the war and when it moved to Taiwan, maintained that it was the "real" China until the 1970s. Communism was seen as a very bad thing. Especially after what happened to the Russian Empire following the Revolution and the problems the early Soviet Union had in the elary 1920s. It was considered worse post-War as now the US and USSR were officially rivals. The two superpowers with opposing viewpoints.

After that allies came in all forms as long as they were opposed to Communism. If the Nazi has risen in the age of the two superpowers, I can imagine the American allying with them to oppose the Communist as the Nazi hated Communists. (Note: Nazi Germany and the United States both supported various Nationalist Chinese against the Japanese and Communists. The Germans changed to supporting the Japanese because they felt the Japanese more capable of countering the Communists than the Chinese.)

Israel was one of the few Middle Eastern nations that was against the communists (this they had lots of American equipment while all their rivals had Soviet equipment). Sometimes you can't pick your friends based on what they do, but on who they are against in politics. It doesn't always work out for you in the end. See all the petty dictators the Americans have been allied with because they were against the Soviet led Communists. Following the end of the Cold War, a bunch of those turned on the Americans (or the Americans pulled funding and got bit because of it).

US foreign policy is still rather Cold War oriented. Mainly because it doesn't know what else to do. We were only a superpower post-World War II. Before that we were a Major Power that was isolationistic between the wars. Before that we were a major power with a wide spread but relatively small empire that generally was only interested in free trade and hoped to get out of foreign entanglements (wars). Before that we were a continental power that the Europeans mostly snickered at, but knew they couldn't invade due to the size of the country (and the size of the potental Army post-Civil War). Before that? An annoyance for the Europeans, but had the largest merchant fleet in the world (the Civil War damaged the merchant fleet greatly thanks to Confederate Privateers, Raiders, the Union Blockade, and conficated ships for both sides.).

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

As for the rock in question, if it is just a rock, why the heck the west is so hot on it? Especially since Taiwan want it as well (In fact, Chinese internally are blaming the communist leader ship for failing to take a harder stance....especially since Taiwan was willing to pick a fight with Japan but its far larger brother was not willing)

The west is hot on Senkaku? You may want to wait a bit longer before going revisionist on it. China is the one getting all hot and bothered over it. Nobody give two **** about what Taiwan wants, TW is all bark and no bite, and everyone knows it. What's TW gonna do? fight Japan with water cannons? And frankly, most people in TW, and most likely China (unless they fish there) couldn't give two **** about the Senkaku anyway.

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

You trolling? The IJA raped/murdered hundreds of thousands of people while advancing into the undefended Chinese capital. This was bad behavior even for them. Ever wonder why there was no "Peking Massacre?"


Also, we are derailing the thread.

Not sure if you got what I meant. Aside from stuff which we might argue about (like hell it was undefended), I'm basically saying given that the IJA was killing, burning, raping, looting all across the continent, how is Nanking any different from what was happening in the rest of the country?


Also, I support a combined China Discussion Thread.

[Ithekro]

Scale and location mostly. 300,000 people and it being the capital of China at that time. Makes it sort of important. Also because Shanghai didn't get it as bad in 1937.

[LeoXiao]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

That is a dumb argument, Chiang Kai-Shek ran off to Taiwan with much of the Chinese treasury then killed 30,000 people when they decided he was not worthy of leadership. Using your argument, if he was still in power in China, he would drown the nation in blood as well.

Of course he would kill people. He was doing this ever since 1927. But putting him on the same level as Mao is like putting the Kaiser in WW1 on the same level as Hitler or saying Nicholas II of Russia was just as bad as Stalin. Yes, the former examples killed people. The latter examples not only killed them but tried to install a culture of killing in place of the old one as well. Let's see:

Spoiler for Education about the differences between totalitarian and "normal" dictators:

- Mao said something like "our country has not had a war in a long time and our young people need to know how to fight". This was right before the Cultural Revolution in which the Red Guards ran rampant ridiculing/beating/killing teachers, destroying cultural artifacts, and then turning on each other.
- Hitler declared all sorts of people to be inferior and forced his country to fight a "war of extermination" against them. He also despised Christianity (though he could not be too open about this) because it preached compassion which was against his idea that a superior people has to be brutal.
- Stalin did not seem to like to publicize his bloodthirstiness in terms of ideology but he was systematically ruthless all the same. First he used his powers to arrest and kill all the other Bolshevik leaders. Then he continually purged his police, army and government, putting a large percentage of the Soviet population through lethal forced labor as an intended corollary to said purges. The people were forced to worship him, and at the same time knew that Stalin's government was the one that was causing them enormous suffering even if they would not admit it. This created a nationwide totalitarian culture of backstabbing, cynicism, and insincerity.

CKS and the KMT were bad, but even they had their limits. CKS did his thing, kileld some people and died. His successors were open to reform. Today Taiwan is democratic and rightly considered a free country. Mao and the CCP were bad, and seemed to have no limits. In the 1950s (attempted economic liberalization), 1979 (democracy wall in Beijing), and 1989 (Tiananmen) there were incidents of the PRC moving towards liberalization that were stamped out because they were deemed a threat to the CCP. Today the PRC is still a one-party state. Tibetans, Uighurs, the Falungong, and Christians are still persecuted, in many cases severely (such as having their organs harvested), and ordinary Chinese have no real representation in their government which instead is controlled by the CCP.

We cannot say for sure what a mainland China ruled by the KMT would be like but I'd suffice the guess that it'd be economically on the right track by 1960 or 70 instead of 1990 simply due to there being no Maoist collectivization/command economy BS.

As for the rock in question, if it is just a rock, why the heck the west is so hot on it? Especially since Taiwan want it as well (In fact, Chinese internally are blaming the communist leader ship for failing to take a harder stance....especially since Taiwan was willing to pick a fight with Japan but its far larger brother was not willing)

Because ever since 1945 (or the 1950s, since that's when the treaties got worked out) it has been considered part of Japan and nobody contested it it until recently. HMMMM I wonder why they bring it up NOW all of a sudden?

Not sure if you got what I meant. Aside from stuff which we might argue about (like hell it was undefended), I'm basically saying given that the IJA was killing, burning, raping, looting all across the continent, how is Nanking any different from what was happening in the rest of the country?

Others have already explained this with the atomic bomb analogy. As for undefended, it's my understanding that the NRA forces had already been destroyed en route to the capital, or they were running away to the South. It was allegedly because of the unexpected bitter resistance they put up that the Japanese troops were angry and took out their revenge on civilians.

[Ithekro]

Well technically it was considered US territory until around 1970 when they handed it back to Japan. But I don't recall China, nor Taiwan saying anything about their claims to those islands until the US was going to hand them over to Japan.

[LeoXiao]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Well technically it was considered US territory until around 1970 when they handed it back to Japan. But I don't recall China, nor Taiwan saying anything about their claims to those islands until the US was going to hand them over to Japan.

Yeah there we go. I think you or someone else mentioned this earlier multiple times, actually.

[Sumeragi]

Never mind that in Cairo, CKS gave up any rights to the Ryukyus, which included Senkaku, when Roosevelt offered the islands to him.

[RRW]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

Not sure if you got what I meant. Aside from stuff which we might argue about (like hell it was undefended), I'm basically saying given that the IJA was killing, burning, raping, looting all across the continent, how is Nanking any different from what was happening in the rest of the country?

Becouse it is the biggest one and happening in one place...

[ArchmageXin]

Israel got actively attacked many times since 1948. I don't think what they are doing in Palestine is right either, but it is true that they are being attacked. What China is doing is simply ridiculous. A few rocks in the ocean? Really? It's obvious just a ploy to get the people pumped up while the 18th Party Congress stuff is going on.

Forgot to address this, Israel through organizations such as Ingun that committed active terror that started the current mess. It seem the world, with U.S consent, actively forgotten how was Israel was formed.

We cannot say for sure what a mainland China ruled by the KMT would be like but I'd suffice the guess that it'd be economically on the right track by 1960 or 70 instead of 1990 simply due to there being no Maoist collectivization/command economy BS.

You know, there is another government known to be a one party dictatorship with a capitalist economy rebuilding a war torn nation through pro-industrial policy. What was that country again?

Oh yea....Nazi Germany.

Seriously. Saying Chiang was no where near as bad as Mao is such an dumb idea. Because the man was already out of power because he was shaping up to be bad as Mao. Even worse, his goal was to kill all the communists and "unite" the country before dealing with the invaders. What a brilliant idea!

Because ever since 1945 (or the 1950s, since that's when the treaties got worked out) it has been considered part of Japan and nobody contested it it until recently. HMMMM I wonder why they bring it up NOW all of a sudden?

Because Japan raise the issue with that buying of the island thing a couple months earlier. China wanted peace and harmony so it can start the Opera known as the 18th congress. Japan effectively threw the whole thing under a bus.

Well technically it was considered US territory until around 1970 when they handed it back to Japan. But I don't recall China, nor Taiwan saying anything about their claims to those islands until the US was going to hand them over to Japan.

That is because it is being handed to Japan of all people, which Taiwan nor China is fond of. And it was "given" to Japan to spite China because it was the height of the cold war.

The west is hot on Senkaku? You may want to wait a bit longer before going revisionist on it. China is the one getting all hot and bothered over it. Nobody give two **** about what Taiwan wants, TW is all bark and no bite, and everyone knows it. What's TW gonna do? fight Japan with water cannons? And frankly, most people in TW, and most likely China (unless they fish there) couldn't give two **** about the Senkaku anyway.

Taiwan is all bark and no bite? Heck Japan is the one who should be saying that. Do you think that island would still be an contested issue if Japan no longer have American protection?

Furthermore, TW raising hell is perfect from China's prospective, because Americans can't claim "Chinese evil-commie-world-domination Aggression" If their own "democratic" client state join the party.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

That is a dumb argument, Chiang Kai-Shek ran off to Taiwan with much of the Chinese treasury then killed 30,000 people when they decided he was not worthy of leadership. Using your argument, if he was still in power in China, he would drown the nation in blood as well.

As for the rock in question, if it is just a rock, why the heck the west is so hot on it? Especially since Taiwan want it as well (In fact, Chinese internally are blaming the communist leader ship for failing to take a harder stance....especially since Taiwan was willing to pick a fight with Japan but its far larger brother was not willing)

.....what are you saying man....if China claims something, of course Taiwan has to do so on principle because they ARE the Republic of China after all.

Taiwan is all bark and no bite? Heck Japan is the one who should be saying that. Do you think that island would still be an contested issue if Japan no longer have American protection?

Because Japan is somehow utterly incapable of defending itself against China? Because China has the required seaborne power needed to project over that swath of water to maintain superiority long enough before the situation spreads out of control? Because the Japanese economy going down won't drag the global economic situation down as well and its trade partners would stand by and do nothing? I think you really need to look at what you are saying and stop smoking propaganda weed

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

Taiwan is all bark and no bite? Heck Japan is the one who should be saying that. Do you think that island would still be an contested issue if Japan no longer have American protection?

Japan has the technical know-how and the economic strength to rapidly re-arm itself, including going nuclear, if it wishes to do, it simply doesn't need to because the US is footing the bill for its defense. Despite the relative small size of the JSDF, Japan more than anyone else in Asia has focused their military spending on modernization, and their capability frankly speaks for itself.

Taiwan on the other hand is entirely dependent on the US to supply it with any kind of semi-modern weapons, as it lacks the capability to really develop any comparable modern weapon system.

It's really not that difficult. Japan's military capability is limited by its own choice, Taiwan on the other hand is limited because they have no choice, comparing the two is frankly quite laughable.

[Random32]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

All I find it funny the west (At least the U.S) unconditionally support Israel because it could be "the holocaust" all over again if Israel back off in their aggressive defense of their homeland.

But when China make the same stance without firing a single bullet at anyone, suddenly it is "provocative" and "dangerous"

Both of them should be heavily ridiculed for carrying their stances.

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

It's obvious just a ploy to get the people pumped up while the 18th Party Congress stuff is going on.

Yeah. And Israel is a ploy to get Americans onboard with ridiculous ideas.

The Cultural Revolution, Great Leap Forward, Anti-Rightist Movement, and such would all like a word with you. Those were even worse than the Japanese IMO who were at least just a foreign invader like the Mongols and would have at some point been repelled or assimilated. What the CCP totalitarian cult accomplished was internal societal rot. It's pretty messed up when famous authors are calling themselves names like "Don't Speak", to give a very recent example.

The KMT also were much worse than Imperial Japan. The Taiwanese are relatively pro-Japan for a reason.

why the heck the west is so hot on it?

The West ISN'T hot on it. Actually, by far, China is the most hot on it. Even Japan didn't get anywhere close to as angered by the issue.

In fact, the whole "nationalization" of the Senkaku Islands was the Japanese government making sure that no one buys the islands and actually do something with it, i.e. the islands remain nominally Japan's, but not much actually happens to them. This move was intentionally misunderstood to help ease the governmental transition.

Taiwan want it as well

Of course they do. They are crazy, think they are China, thus everything that big China claims, they claim as well.

China wanted peace and harmony so it can start the Opera known as the 18th congress. Japan effectively threw the whole thing under a bus.

Actually, the Chinese government needed people to be united. The unfortunate timing of the nationalization of the islands was an excellent topic to get everyone behind the government with.

[ArchmageXin]

Originally Posted by kyp275

Japan has the technical know-how and the economic strength to rapidly re-arm itself, including going nuclear, if it wishes to do, it simply doesn't need to because the US is footing the bill for its defense. Despite the relative small size of the JSDF, Japan more than anyone else in Asia has focused their military spending on modernization, and their capability frankly speaks for itself.

Taiwan on the other hand is entirely dependent on the US to supply it with any kind of semi-modern weapons, as it lacks the capability to really develop any comparable modern weapon system.

It's really not that difficult. Japan's military capability is limited by its own choice, Taiwan on the other hand is limited because they have no choice, comparing the two is frankly quite laughable.

You still don't see the value of Taiwan in this equation.

It effectively neutralize America's game plan, which is to make the "evil Chinese communists" against the entire world.

If Japan choose to load to bear and go after the Island against Taiwan, and Taiwan could easily hide behind China, but it will put America in a difficult position. Which "counterbalance against China" will America lose.

Also, I find it amusing people say Japan has the economic power to rearm. Most of Japan right now is in a recession, and Japan completely lack mineral wealth for a completely industrial re-tool. It won last time before China was too busy shooting themselves and Korea/Indonesia etc was too weak to put up a fight.

I doubt they can just march into Manchuria and Philippines to re-gain those raw material without a fight a second time around.

Plus, a large part of Japan's manufacturing is actually overseas, it would be doubtful to see them able to re-tool their shrinking industrial base without American help.

Finally, Japan has 233% GDP for their public debt, as a comparison, Greece only has 165%.

[ArchmageXin]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

.....what are you saying man....if China claims something, of course Taiwan has to do so on principle because they ARE the Republic of China after all.



Because Japan is somehow utterly incapable of defending itself against China? Because China has the required seaborne power needed to project over that swath of water to maintain superiority long enough before the situation spreads out of control? Because the Japanese economy going down won't drag the global economic situation down as well and its trade partners would stand by and do nothing? I think you really need to look at what you are saying and stop smoking propaganda weed

Um, PRC and RPC are two different political entities. Unless you believe there is one China

I can tell you effectively without America, Japan is toast against China.

First, China is Japan's biggest Trading partner....Just fyi. And China wouldn't be doing the attacking-it is defending its own island All it need is force projection to that island alone. Japan would need to march its...I mean beg the American Navy to do anything.

Japan alone would need a miracle against China, it would need

-An united government first (Japan's government is pretty much close to banana republic)

-An Major reduction of debt....as I stated above, Japan has the highest Debt to GDP ratio in the world. If you think U.S has a borrowing problem....a "Greece credit panic" could already destroy Japan.

-An population-Xenophobia against immigration + Aging population = Bad formula for war. A few solid battles in South China sea and Japan could cease to exist as a nation--Not due to China, but because it will not be able to reproduce enough for the next generation.

-Oh, and as I stated above, natural resource limitations + limited industry.

[Terrestrial Dream]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

You still don't see the value of Taiwan in this equation.

It effectively neutralize America's game plan, which is to make the "evil Chinese communists" against the entire world.

If Japan choose to load to bear and go after the Island against Taiwan, and Taiwan could easily hide behind China, but it will put America in a difficult position. Which "counterbalance against China" will America lose.

Also, I find it amusing people say Japan has the economic power to rearm. Most of Japan right now is in a recession, and Japan completely lack mineral wealth for a completely industrial re-tool. It won last time before China was too busy shooting themselves and Korea/Indonesia etc was too weak to put up a fight.

I doubt they can just march into Manchuria and Philippines to re-gain those raw material without a fight a second time around.

Plus, a large part of Japan's manufacturing is actually overseas, it would be doubtful to see them able to re-tool their shrinking industrial base without American help.

Finally, Japan has 233% GDP for their public debt, as a comparison, Greece only has 165%.

I believe most of Japan's debt is internal, so I think comparing to Greece doesn't make much sense.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

You still don't see the value of Taiwan in this equation.

It effectively neutralize America's game plan, which is to make the "evil Chinese communists" against the entire world.

If Japan choose to load to bear and go after the Island against Taiwan, and Taiwan could easily hide behind China, but it will put America in a difficult position. Which "counterbalance against China" will America lose.

...I'm just at a loss for words here, the reality distortion field is strong with this one.

Japan AND Taiwan has zero reason to go to open conflict over the Senkakus, none, zip. Your scenario is downright crazy. Outside of political posturing, Taiwan couldn't give two **** about Senkaku, nor do they have the means to do anything about it even if they want to, which again, they don't. Japan on the other hand has even less reason to fight Taiwan.

Taiwan hide behind China? ffs, China is Taiwan's single largest adversary in the world. Japan is not the one with hundreds of missiles pointed at Taiwan here, and Taiwan isn't buying weapons from the US to protect itself from Japan. Good grief.

Also, I find it amusing people say Japan has the economic power to rearm. Most of Japan right now is in a recession

There was this one country that was just completely buried, not just a recession, but in a great depression. As I recall, that country managed to rearm itself just fine, in the process digging itself out of the depression. I'm gonna let you guess which country that was.

and Japan completely lack mineral wealth for a completely industrial re-tool. It won last time before China was too busy shooting themselves and Korea/Indonesia etc was too weak to put up a fight.

There is this one thing these days call globalization, where materials are traded and bought on the global market, look it up, it's pretty sweet. (Also completely ignoring the fact that the US and Allies would have zero issue supplying Japan with weapons ).

First, China is Japan's biggest Trading partner....Just fyi.

It cuts both ways, losing Japan and US would deal immense damage to China's economy, if not downright collapsing it.

And China wouldn't be doing the attacking-it is defending its own island All it need is force projection to that island alone. Japan would need to march its...I mean beg the American Navy to do anything.

LOL

China can't project its force to Taiwan, much less the Senkaku. Japan's navy is quite modern, and again, you can't simply remove the 7th Fleet from the equation.

Stop drinking the CCP propaganda kool-aid, or producing it for that matter.

[ArchmageXin]

There was this one country that was just completely buried, not just a recession, but in a great depression. As I recall, that country managed to rearm itself just fine, in the process digging itself out of the depression. I'm gonna let you guess which country that was.

That country was also blessed with the world largest industrial base and a non-deficit economy (by the time Pearl Harbor hits U.S. Which btw, it no longer have in both counts. And Japan had an even worse situation.

China can't project its force to Taiwan, much less the Senkaku. Japan's navy is quite modern, and again, you can't simply remove the 7th Fleet from the equation.

And who said the CCP has no force projection abilities at all? I mean, judging by all the howling by Japan and America lately about "Growing chinese military threat." China must be doing something. Are you telling me the Congress and the Diet are all are just chicken little?

It cuts both ways, losing Japan and US would deal immense damage to China's economy, if not downright collapsing it.

Well, given the way things are going, losing China would also sink the Japanese economy. They can't just keep printing debts and keep the train going forever.

http://rt.com/business/news/japan-tr...it-record-219/