2007-05-07, 16:20 | Link #101 |
Blazing General
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Age: 37
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Well magic is an English word, of course they don't use it. Seid/Seidr/whatever is usually translated to 'sorcery' or 'witchcraft' so I'd think it's what you're looking for.
In Sayings of the High One Odin never describes his art as a 'magic' in my translation but he lists individual spells. Given that 'use of spells' is how we define magic I'd consider it a reference to magic as we use the term.
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2007-05-07, 16:52 | Link #102 |
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Join Date: Oct 2006
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Alright, so "sorcery" seems to be the closest so far... I'm hesitant to join spells and magic directly, as at one point the text I think you're talking about goes into the "Song of Spells" according to my translation. Outside of the title, the other time I see "spell" used is it is followed shortly by "when I sing that song". So unless the Norse had some other meaning behind "song" (all my research is independent so I'm not sure) I'm not entirely sure what he meant by spell. My dictionary also says that spell can mean "irresistible influence" which could clearly mean an amazing song.
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2007-05-07, 16:57 | Link #103 |
Blazing General
Join Date: May 2006
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Ah, in the case of Seid the spells were supposed to be invoked by songs. Odin's rune spells are described as being chanted too.
Odin specifically describes the effects; things like putting out fires, making making an enemy's weapons ineffective, etc. that are obviously 'magical' and not just the product of good singing.
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2007-05-07, 17:06 | Link #104 |
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Join Date: Oct 2006
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I've seen some amazing things done by people who were singing. Not to mention that I've read accounts of entire ships being saved by a group of people who suddenly broke out into song and found the strength to move a massive object (I think it was a mast) that they couldn't move before. Also, my translation says something about blunting weapons. Even with the little my school taught us about the Norse, we learned these were people whose armies featured warriors who the British claimed fought without shirts and who barely seemed to notice their wounds. Even more, the Norse won for quite some time. When they say "blunt" do they really mean ineffective or "it doesn't hurt as much as it should"?
Still, it would seem that the Norse did refer to something being along the lines of "magic" as opposed to divine intervention. Wait, didn't the Egyptians record books of charms and spells to aid the dead in their travels to the afterlife? Why aren't these part of the common concept of "magic"? Last edited by Woden; 2007-05-07 at 17:22. |
2007-05-07, 17:16 | Link #105 |
Blazing General
Join Date: May 2006
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Age: 37
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(Cut out a lot of the random verse but the descriptions of what they do are verbatim)
One which is called help and will help you against accusations and sorrows and every sort of anxiety One which need by known by those who wish to become physicians One which fetters my enemy, the edges of my foe I can blunt, neither weapon nor club will bite for them One so that if men put chains upon my limbs, I can chant so that I can walk away, fetters spring from my feet and bonds from my hands One so that if I see a dart fly amidst the army it cannot fly so fast I cannot stop it One if I see towering flames in the hall about my companions, it cannot burn so widely that I cannot counteract it One that if hatred flares between the sons of warriors I can bring settlement One to protect my ship at sea, the wind I can lull upon the wave and quieten all the sea to sleep. One if I see witches playing up in the air I can bring it about that they can't make their way back to their own shapes and spirits. One when leading loyal friends into battle, under the shields I chant and they journey inviolate One if I see a dangling corpse in a noose I can so carve and color the runes that the man walks and talks with me. One if i shall pour water over a young warrior he will not fall though he goes into battle, before swords he will not sink One to know the difference between elves and men (???) (from there on they're either very abstract and refer to previous uses rather than the actual effect or allow him to seduce women) At the very least I think that animating the dead is quite an achievement.
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2007-05-07, 17:33 | Link #106 |
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Yep, the Norse seem to have referenced something close to magic as being from something besides holiness. Yet the implementation they recommend hasn't made in into today's common perception of magic...
The reason I'm asking is that I'm wondering if the idea of "magic" isn't just a catch-all term created by the major monotheistic religions for things not using divine power or technology. |
2007-05-07, 17:52 | Link #107 |
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Join Date: Oct 2006
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Why don't you guys just check Wikipedia's article on the magic instead?
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2007-05-07, 18:39 | Link #108 |
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Join Date: Oct 2006
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Because it isn't exactly a reliable source, and is horribly unsatisfying. It isn't nearly comprehensive enough for the kind of studies I'm interested in, and when it comes to the actual ideas of magic itself lacks any depth deeper than you can get from a good look at D&D supplements. It is also fairly politically blind, which destroys half the fun for me.
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2007-05-07, 19:02 | Link #109 | |
Blazing General
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2007-05-07, 23:00 | Link #110 | |
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Anyway time for me to be off again. |
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2007-05-08, 00:44 | Link #112 |
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It is a sine wave AM carrier A*sin(wt + ǿ) , I thought I made it clear hmm. Maybe not since I did try to expain the physical dmg factor with dual properties with this as well. so maybe that got related to E=hf.
I like good argument so if this model does rasie problem to the floor I'm happy to debate it out . |
2007-05-08, 03:44 | Link #113 |
Blazing General
Join Date: May 2006
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If you're just saying that magical 'energy' has a waveform I don't have a problem.
If you're saying that magical energy is an EM wave, I do have a problem, mostly with the fact that EM waves have specific properties that don't include turning into glowing pink death balls because a little girl with a very fancy pocket calculator wanted them to.
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2007-05-08, 07:00 | Link #114 | |
~ I Do ~
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I second the notion that magical energy has a waveform property. I believe it also has particulate properties, which I'm sure would come in handy in some way, just can't think of what at the moment. Also, as an additional application of my anti-entropical theory on the nature of mana, is it far fetched to say that ceremonial spells appeal to the organized "living" characteristics of mana in order to cast them? As in, not just providing the maths to charge/aim/fire the spell, you also have to convince the magic to follow it?
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2007-05-08, 07:31 | Link #115 | ||
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Partical properties does only one thing in my book and that is to level cities , I guess H bonding will also use it. Quote:
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2007-05-08, 07:34 | Link #116 | |
Adeptus Animus
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2007-05-08, 08:11 | Link #117 | |
~ I Do ~
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Well I've got the problem of why ceremonial spells exist. They sound rather beseeching in nature. The presence of SB means that just a mute charging phase would suffice if one is delaying cast to charge power, so no help from there. Any ideas?
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2007-05-08, 08:36 | Link #118 |
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SLB and most of Nanoha's spells in genral uses a storage function in the IDs with a loading time and energy build up, (I tried to find the passage for this be failed).and maybe due to the "size" of the storage memory can not hold things like ceremonial spells with long incantations or such, they need to be chanted
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2007-05-08, 09:01 | Link #120 | ||
~ I Do ~
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Evolutionary baggage: Basically the parts and structures carried over from a previous species that the current one evolved from. May or may not have any beneficial use. Maybe the ceremonies still function as passwords to a higher power only because they were the predominant form of powerful magics that predated the modern IDs and SDs, and mages cling to it for cultural reasons?
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