American TV Animation as of now: Opinon?

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Rurik

Sorry I had a Typo , as I wanted to say “some of the best”. But the general idea was that original concepts where the ones that rather had less chance to be good. also Note that I said "until recently" as Im refering to 80's and 90's
...
And Animanics, Freakazoid and Pinky and the Brain had Steven Spielberg as executive producer -* You can’t really miss on that!

Ahh, understood. What I've also noticed is something you just pointed out... that the spikes in innovative programming are usually centered around one individual and then only for a couple of years (Spielberg and his team, Groening, Kricfalusi, etc) before the innovation gets snuffed for whatever reason.

[Ziv]

I don't remember there being any action cartoons growing up until Dragonball Z. The biggest thing I hated about supposed "action" cartoons was the complete and total lack of a competent, capable hero, and the substitution of a random incompetent child as the main character. Then again, maybe it was because all I had to watch was the abomination known as the Superfriends. Seriously! Who the heck wants to watch two random civilians run around doing stuff that the superheroes should be doing!? I wanted to see action!

And it wasn't just an isolated incident. It's as though every single action show HAD to have a random incompetent kid character who gets more screen time than the hero. (see Jackie Chan Advantures) I always cringed whenever the hero would constantly have to save the useless kid. Basically, think Inuyasha with Shippo as the main character. WHO THE HECK WANTS TO WATCH THAT!? What could possibly posses them to think that children wanted to fantasize about "helping" superheroes, rather than "being" superheroes!? I figure that's the main reason Dragonball Z became so popular. There was a complete lack of actual action shows, and Dragonball Z filled the void with Action, Action, and more action. Furthermore, it actually had characters who got injured or died! Even if they could be brought back to life, it was still way more dramatic than any of the junk that was on at the time.

Oh and someone mentioned Samurai Jack. I didn't think it was that good. Sure it had a nice visual style, but it didn't have enough character development to justify the dramatic focus and shots. There was a lot of eye candy, but without any character to provide substance to the drama, it was just an empty shell.

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

There's something not quite right about it that I can't seem to put my finger on. Whatever it is, I just can't seem to find it funny. I generally walk away from most episodes saying "meh".

It almost seems to focus more on character development than on comedy, which kind of confuses you as to whether you should take it seriously or not, which in turn lessens the impact of jokes.

[raikage]

Originally Posted by Ziv

I don't remember there being any action cartoons growing up until Dragonball Z. The biggest thing I hated about supposed "action" cartoons was the complete and total lack of a competent, capable hero, and the substitution of a random incompetent child as the main character. Then again, maybe it was because all I had to watch was the abomination known as the Superfriends. Seriously! Who the heck wants to watch two random civilians run around doing stuff that the superheroes should be doing!? I wanted to see action!

And it wasn't just an isolated incident. It's as though every single action show HAD to have a random incompetent kid character who gets more screen time than the hero. (see Jackie Chan Advantures) I always cringed whenever the hero would constantly have to save the useless kid. Basically, think Inuyasha with Shippo as the main character. WHO THE HECK WANTS TO WATCH THAT!? What could possibly posses them to think that children wanted to fantasize about "helping" superheroes, rather than "being" superheroes!? I figure that's the main reason Dragonball Z became so popular. There was a complete lack of actual action shows, and Dragonball Z filled the void with Action, Action, and more action. Furthermore, it actually had characters who got injured or died! Even if they could be brought back to life, it was still way more dramatic than any of the junk that was on at the time.

So I take it you missed Batman, X-Men, Spider-man, GI Joe?

Maybe even Thundercats and He-Man (my memory's a little fuzzy on those)?

[Ziv]

Originally Posted by raikage

So I take it you missed Batman, X-Men, Spider-man, GI Joe?

Maybe even Thundercats and He-Man (my memory's a little fuzzy on those)?

I do recall X-men and the Thundercats being on occasionally, (not often enough to watch regularly) but I don't remember any GI Joe, Spider-man, or Batman shows being on.

[Neopluto]

Originally Posted by Ziv

I don't remember there being any action cartoons growing up until Dragonball Z. The biggest thing I hated about supposed "action" cartoons was the complete and total lack of a competent, capable hero, and the substitution of a random incompetent child as the main character. Then again, maybe it was because all I had to watch was the abomination known as the Superfriends. Seriously! Who the heck wants to watch two random civilians run around doing stuff that the superheroes should be doing!? I wanted to see action!

And it wasn't just an isolated incident. It's as though every single action show HAD to have a random incompetent kid character who gets more screen time than the hero. (see Jackie Chan Advantures) I always cringed whenever the hero would constantly have to save the useless kid. Basically, think Inuyasha with Shippo as the main character. WHO THE HECK WANTS TO WATCH THAT!? What could possibly posses them to think that children wanted to fantasize about "helping" superheroes, rather than "being" superheroes!? I figure that's the main reason Dragonball Z became so popular. There was a complete lack of actual action shows, and Dragonball Z filled the void with Action, Action, and more action. Furthermore, it actually had characters who got injured or died! Even if they could be brought back to life, it was still way more dramatic than any of the junk that was on at the time.

Oh and someone mentioned Samurai Jack. I didn't think it was that good. Sure it had a nice visual style, but it didn't have enough character development to justify the dramatic focus and shots. There was a lot of eye candy, but without any character to provide substance to the drama, it was just an empty shell.



It almost seems to focus more on character development than on comedy, which kind of confuses you as to whether you should take it seriously or not, which in turn lessens the impact of jokes.

To that I'd say that they're trying to target kids with huge imaginations. I mean, I can't deny I enjoy watching that kind of thing from time to time because it implies that I can be that hero or be in that impossible situation. Of course, not all of them are spectacular. /makes a face

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by raikage

So I take it you missed Batman, X-Men, Spider-man, GI Joe?

Maybe even Thundercats and He-Man (my memory's a little fuzzy on those)?

As much as I liked Gi-Joe, I did had a trouble with the show…ever heard the expression “never bring a Knife to a Gun Fight” ?

Gi-joe were supposed to be soldiers, and they begun the battle with their Laser Guns (not rifles), but somehow along the way the bad guys and the good guys ended up fighting Karate between each other!

[Vexx]

Ya'll had to suffer through the late 70s and 80s of "omigodthinkofthechildrenandallthecartoonviole nce" ... it was a terrible time for action cartoons when naturally violent shows like GIJoe, Batman, Spiderman and such basically just faded out because they couldn't adapt the shows without looking stupide (hence --- Superfriends and characters the kids "could identify with" --- who were total losers rather than someone you'd like to fantasize being.

The other problem with many of those series even when they were still violent was that often they were *really* in-your-face 30 minute commercials. They would introduce 4 or 5 products every 10 seconds or so (GIJoe's Ultimate Tank Land Fortress!!! Holds 5 Joes and all their Accessory Gear!!!), utterly shoving any storytelling into about 5 seconds of the episode.

It really wasn't until the anime started seeping into the American landscape again in the 90s (nods to Pokemon and such) that things changed a bit for the better. The "thinkofthechildren" imagination-snuffers still keep things pretty much ruined though with "wtf" news items like the original Sesame Street season being "not recommended for children" recently (omigod, Cookie Monster *smokes* introducing Monsterpiece Theatre).

[JustInn14]

Originally Posted by Vexx

It really wasn't until the anime started seeping into the American landscape again in the 90s (nods to Pokemon and such) that things changed a bit for the better. The "thinkofthechildren" imagination-snuffers still keep things pretty much ruined though with "wtf" news items like the original Sesame Street season being "not recommended for children" recently (omigod, Cookie Monster *smokes* introducing Monsterpiece Theatre).

*sigh* Parents just won't realize that,,, Their kids are dumb. Nothing can be done about it. ESPECIALLY not changing already horrible TV programs to be more "Suitable" for their "Fragile" (weak) little minds, and nothing WILL be done about it. IMO, their kids should be able to be smart enough to know that "IT's a friggin' muppet. It's not human. It's not "Rea;", either.". There's my 1 cent for this topic.

[Solace]

Yeah the "think of the children" thing struck animation pretty badly back in the late 70's early 80's. It's a tired old banner that people take up, pretending to be a shield for others when they themselves are the ones actually offended.

Were cartoons violent? Perhaps. But in such an exaggerated way. GI Joe? WORST SHOTS EVER. They made the A-Team look like good in comparison. Almost every show was filled with "moral lessons" and commercialism. It's not a big secret that most cartoons are designed to be half hour advertisement blocks.

For some good old nostalgia, check out www.retrojunk.com. It's a kind of database of old television, mostly about cartoons and kids shows. They don't host any episodes but they do have a lot of the opening and closing sequences. Pretty fun for a trip down memory lane.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by JustInn14

*sigh* Parents just won't realize that,,, Their kids are dumb. Nothing can be done about it. ESPECIALLY not changing already horrible TV programs to be more "Suitable" for their "Fragile" (weak) little minds, and nothing WILL be done about it.

I think that's a bit harsh. The children are not dumb. In reality children will look up to various figures and try to mimic what those figures do, it's true. It's the job of the parents to ensure that the child grows normally and doesn't misbehave either way. Parents today are attempting to do this by cutting out what they perceive to be negative influences, rather than talking with their children and doing some actual parenting. I don't believe this is the right way to go about things.

Of course, it's easy to spout all of that off for those of us who aren't parents. If I had a young child I'm sure I'd be worrying at least a little every time they were exposed to something not quite OK, and wondering if they now thought it would be acceptable to do it. This would be especially true if I weren't able to spend as much time with them as I'd wanted to. (Perhaps I'm a budding control freak )

Originally Posted by Solace

Were cartoons violent? Perhaps. But in such an exaggerated way.

I remember someone saying something interesting about this once. They stated that the violence that we see in cartoons and games is really not too much different than the violence that young boys imagine while playing, it's just that now the mothers (and perhaps fathers who didn't play that way) can see it. It'd be quite a shock, and of course we all have different comfort levels about violence, even in play.

For example, does anyone remember the game Deus Ex? My friends and I played it quite heavily in high school. Being a sensitive individual who tends to get rather absorbed in games, I always opted to use the tranquilizers against "human" enemies until it simply became too difficult. To someone watching me play, I'm sure it would have looked like I'd just crossed over the border of caring about life and became homicidal. For crying out loud, I was even making head shots - why not simply shoot the enemies in the arm to make them run away? But then, those would be the thoughts of a passive observer who isn't worrying about having to deal with advancing through the level, or worrying about having to deal with regrouped enemies.

One of my friends played a bit differently, and took delight in getting to the rooftops of buildings in the city levels and sniping the homeless bums. Does that mark him as a homicidal maniac? We all thought it was a bit odd, but it hasn't erased his moral conscience, and he's a perfectly nice guy. But to the observer who isn't rooted in the game, or in the movie/show, you just pick up on random things and have to wonder about how the person engrossed in it is being impacted by it. It's a fault the vast majority of us share - we're too judgemental, even when we're not in a place to form a proper judgement.

[Ziv]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

I remember someone saying something interesting about this once. They stated that the violence that we see in cartoons and games is really not too much different than the violence that young boys imagine while playing, it's just that now the mothers (and perhaps fathers who didn't play that way) can see it. It'd be quite a shock, and of course we all have different comfort levels about violence, even in play.

Absolutely. It seems to me that whoever is overreacting to this has never seen any boys' drawings. I recall everyone I knew drew nothing but huge collages of stick-figures being massacred.

[HayashiTakara]

Is it a good thing that western animation has pretty much "died"? Sure theres some crap being churned up now and then, like Ben 10 and what not. But as a whole, from last I remember Saturday morning cartoons was like 90% anime. And Disney had to close down all their 2D animation studios as they were getting their butt stomped by eastern animation. Resulting in massive job loss.

My former animation teacher was a Disney employee who animated Mulan and other such movies.

Do you think this is a good thing, or a bad thing?

[Mystique]

By western animation, do you mean the crap that is churned out of Nickleodian, Disney Channel and Cartoon Network nowadays (aka American animation) compared to the glory days of the late 80's and 90's when we all rushed home from school, knowing that quality cartoons and shows were about to be aired.
Or the days when we would wake up extra early on Saturday mornings to catch all the kids shows for 3-4 hours on end?
Or you talking about something completely different?

I think animation still is very much alive in Europe and other parts of the world, only it doesn't get as much limelight or perhaps funding as America do, being the giants of the entertainment industry globally. It isn't simply limited to cell art, there's different kinds (I guess we're more famed for clay animation over here)

Is there an article or finding to support your claim, just curious as to where you're coming from before I add anything else.
Besides in addition, I suppose the internet has revolutionised the way we entertain ourselves as kids. Most are happy to play cheap ass flash games for hours on end or just stick with consoles, but I don't think TV holds as much power of us all as much as it did even just a decade ago.
Also as I've seen countless times, most are happy to jump onto crunchyroll and stream fansubs (without even realising it is fansubs) just to tune into naruto or bleach etc. We have more choice on what we wanna watch and where, compared to before, perhaps low viewer numbers are also influencing closing of studios and so on...

[HayashiTakara]

Yeah of course I mean the stuff that are out nowadays. 80's and 90's really were the glory days of american cartoons. And I had no idea europe made cartoon series.

No, no articles. Though I can probably find some. Also, you probably notice that Disney hasn't put out a animated movie in ages ( Pixar doesn't count ). Disney has pretty much made / making the move to doing 3d rather than 2d.

What I do know, is from former disney animators, like my past instructor as I mentioned.

[escimo]

It's a bit of both. I wouldn't call western animation dead. It's far from it. The focus has just shifted from 2D to 3D. And from series to full feature. There have been many quite excellent 3D animation films lately so in that sense I can't see this shift as a bad thing since most of the most recent 2D animations be that series of films have been total crap.

Job losses on the other hand can't be seen as a very positive thing.

[HayashiTakara]

Yeah, the job losses sucks... 2d for american animation is pretty much dead IMO, all the traditional animators here are forced to learn 3d if they want to continue their career as an animator. Many of them are already old too, and have difficulties learning the application.

While 2d in the east will probably be going strong for who knows how long.

I'm guessing we're to blame for this occurance? lol

[Daughter!]

I'm going to sound like a huge dick when I tell you I haven't watched a good western cartoon, or anime, in a long time. In America, most cartoons have turned to the computer-generated style you see a lot, which is ugly as hell and everyday is making real artists with real talent more and more obsolete. The only cartoon I won't loose sleep over is Spongebob.

The last animes I enjoyed were Azumanga Daioh and Lucky Star, probably because they're pretty similar. They were funny. I don't really understand a lot of Japanese humor but those two had me laughing. I also like Haruhi. I try out more serious anime and I just can't get into it. I hate anything where missing one episode means you won't know what's going on, that's anime's biggest problem. Sometimes it gets far too caught up in a plot too complex to hold itself up, to the point where it becomes absurd.

In short, I hate everything.

[nadare]

I still think 2D > 3D. Until 3D animations can make good human emotions like 2D can. When I say human emotion I meant facial animations.

I have a problem with current 3D animations as the characters look soul-less.

[solomon]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Ya'll had to suffer through the late 70s and 80s of "omigodthinkofthechildrenandallthecartoonviole nce" ... it was a terrible time for action cartoons when naturally violent shows like GIJoe, Batman, Spiderman and such basically just faded out because they couldn't adapt the shows without looking stupide (hence --- Superfriends and characters the kids "could identify with" --- who were total losers rather than someone you'd like to fantasize being.

The other problem with many of those series even when they were still violent was that often they were *really* in-your-face 30 minute commercials. They would introduce 4 or 5 products every 10 seconds or so (GIJoe's Ultimate Tank Land Fortress!!! Holds 5 Joes and all their Accessory Gear!!!), utterly shoving any storytelling into about 5 seconds of the episode.

It really wasn't until the anime started seeping into the American landscape again in the 90s (nods to Pokemon and such) that things changed a bit for the better. The "thinkofthechildren" imagination-snuffers still keep things pretty much ruined though with "wtf" news items like the original Sesame Street season being "not recommended for children" recently (omigod, Cookie Monster *smokes* introducing Monsterpiece Theatre).

Alright, Vexx with the oldhead perspective.

Wait what was that about SESAME STREET being bad for kids? SS is a goddamned american institution! (and like others has been exported and replicated world wide).

As for the whole 2d vs. 3d thing, I look at it as classical instruments vs. electronic music instruments. Neither is better. What matters is the skill, style and content of the music. At heart I am pro-2d more then 3-d though.

American animation is big buisness and EVERYONE KNOWS that big buisness cuts corners to get money or keep costs low. Until execs arent sitting in on studio production sites giving their "creative input" stuff from big studios will generally be more bland then more free studios (Pixar is an exception)

To pick up on Ledgers point about judgemental practices and lazy parenting and over sensitivity, check this;

In the US especially most kids before the 2000s grew up with Looney Tunes on TV, a national animation institution for DECADES. I've seen many relatively uncut Bugs Bunnys for YEARS as a kid. I never wanted to shoot a gun in my brothers face. As a kid as young as 5, I knew that If you drop something heavy on someone, you can get really hurt. So I can't pull an anvil stunt like Wile E. Coyote.

Thing is while during the 70s, various groups pushed for cencoring of violent gags, in the 40s, 50s and 60s millions of kids watched Popeye, Bugs and Droopy get blown up, evicerated, sawed in half, beaten until daylight AND THEY WERE JUST FINE. (Vexx you can back me up here right?)

[HayashiTakara]

My biggest gripe I see in 3d, particularily in video games, is that they move too much when they talk... I mean seriously... who bops their head and makes constant hand gestures when talking?

I do know why they do it... but, it just feels wrong to me.