[Manga] Chapter 401 Discussion

[DeDe]

Wait a minute...Itachi had a GIRLFRIEND? I guess he wasn't asexual. I am assuming "lover" means girlfriend or fiancee unless Kishi wanted Itachi to be the first out of the closet Naruto character.

Kishi needs to name her so ff.net will be flooded with Itachi x whateverhernameis for a few days. We also need Itachi x whateverhernameis fanart.

Hopefully we can now move onto other characters now that Sasuke has new clothes. Kishi is dragging. I miss Hinata and the Konoha gang.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by james3wk

The fact of the matter is, as Rahan has so kindly pointed out, that Itachi had plenty of time to tell Konoha about Akatsuki and Madara before he became a missing-nin and had to cut-off his communication with his country.

How do you know that he has never told about that to anyone, and whether he had cut-off his communication or not? He was a missing-nin for Konoha on the surface, but, in actuality he may not be so, especially for the leaders he was working for.

It is entirely possible that Konoha would have completely revised their opinions of the Uchiha crisis or revised their opinions of Itachi after he killed off the clan. Or any number of extra scenarios.

Sasuke was spared and Danzou had to wait for 5-6 years to even try to get rid of him. So, the plans were there. If you were referring to Konoha being aware of Madara's existence and his plans to get rid of both Uchihas and Konoha at the same time, what do you expect them to do? What kind of revisions do you propose? None? Or actually go with the first choice they currently have which put both sides in agreement. And, surprisingly being aware of Madara's plans would have actually given Danzou and the elders enough evidence to go with the Uchiha massacre, as it would also stop Madara's plans about Konoha, and he may actually help them with that problem.

The fact that Itachi withheld this information is extraordinarly damning to his portrayal as a "hero" especially considering the fact that Itachi was dealing with Konoha's original arch-nemisis.

The fact of the matter is, what you state as fact is definitely not a fact, but just a personal view.

Again, even Madara said Itachi was planning to stop Akatsuki from within, what makes you say that he had a better option than what he had already done? If Madara's words to be trusted and if he was aware of Itachi's intentions, maybe he was also aware of something we are not, like Itachi actually providing village with some insider information, though as little information as possible to prevent his cover to be blown.

Originally Posted by Rahan

Yeah, right. Sandaime who was against the genocide and trying to prevent it think Itachi definitely saved the shinobi world by making a genocide. After all, it's not like he was betrayed by Itachi who made the first strike (if what Sasuke saw was real, the Uchihas weren't going at war, so there was still time) and killed the negotiations ...

Doesn't change the fact that what you said is merely assumptions on your side. Sandaime was not someone without any mistakes. That is also true for Jiraiya and possibly Tsunade. Sandaime's mistake with Orochimaru had cost many lives. Why would you think he would try the same patience and forgiveness with the Uchihas, and in the Uchiha case, it was stated as more like obvious, that the other side would sooner or later attack? From what Madara told, he tried to negotiate, but at the end it failed. I think you are aware of what is expected to start after a negotiation is failed.

It was his responsibility to not tell Kakashi there were people after his student ? Too hard to put a lie like ANBU detected stuff or something ...

When did Akatsuki come after Naruto? Before or after Sandaime died? Was Naruto living a secure life till Sandaime's death or not? I think you know the answer to these questions.

It's pretty clear Akatsuki could have killed Oro whenever they wanted.

Really, I wonder why they didn't do that, considering that there were at least two Akatsuki members who wanted to get rid of him very much!

And it didn't change shit to the beasts sealing. Just took a little longer ... What a great hindrance it was. Itachi is the hero of the anti-Akatsuki forces.

That is a first. Delaying the plans for three years equal to not changing shit. Well, what can I say, that is indeed a first...

So it was planned and Itachi was even faking his surprise ? LOL

Or the simplest explanation, maybe Itachi didn't actually want to kill a Konoha ninja, Kakashi. Would this also be a surprise for you, after all you have heard from Madara?

And once again, if Itachi is a good guy, then Pein is a world hero ...

If you wish to see it that way, be my guest.

[Alleluia_Cone]

It all makes sense now. I should have known Itachi had AIDS.

[BlackShinobi07]

So was it true Itach had a girlfriend and some kind disease?

I just read a few spoilers and it appears, if I what I read was true, that Itachi could care less about Naruto and only came back to village after the 3rds death to make sure Sauske was okay. It is me, or has Naruto's significance in this mangas overall story diminished even more after this chapter?

[TooPurePureBoy]

It is me, or has Naruto's significance in this mangas overall story diminished even more after this chapter?

Is it even possible to go past zero in terms of significance? Naruto has long ago been cast into the void.

[BlackShinobi07]

Originally Posted by Nine-Tails-Nin

Is it even possible to go past zero in terms of significance? Naruto has long ago been cast into the void.

Oh. I thought I was the only one who saw it that way.

[ace_TZ]

Originally Posted by BlackShinobi07

So was it true Itach had a girlfriend and some kind disease?

Strangely all sasuke's powerful opponents ended up like this.
Deidara : Suicide
Orochimaru : weakened
Itachi : Tragic,Disease

It is me, or has Naruto's significance in this mangas overall story diminished even more after this chapter?

One of the reason they still have him in the manga is because of the brand name "Naruto" for the cash cow it is.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by ace_TZ

One of the reason they still have him in the manga is because of the brand name "Naruto" for the cash cow it is.

Well i think that for some reason....the manga may end at 1000 but...

In total probably (which i expect...the numbers are the chapters)

1-50 are about Naruto's past
51-300 are about Naruto the story itself
301-350 are about Sasuke's past
351-450 are about the History of the Uchiha
451-800 are about the Uchiha's (Madara, Sasuke, Obito, Itachi
801-900 are about the other characters
901-950 are about the Kyuubi and his past
951-1000 are about Orochimaru

This isnt in the correct order but if you would count them all...i would suspect something like this. The series Naruto will be mostly about others and more about Sasuke actually than Naruto itself.

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

1-50 are about Naruto's past
51-300 are about Naruto the story itself
301-350 are about Sasuke's past
351-450 are about the History of the Uchiha
451-800 are about the Uchiha's (Madara, Sasuke, Obito, Itachi
801-900 are about the other characters
901-950 are about the Kyuubi and his past
951-1000 are about Orochimaru

LOL for Orchi being back. (I think he will too.)

[Medalist]

Spoiler for Spoiler Pic:

Nothing epic, but it frustrating that there's so much back-story behind this.

[Rahan]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

This isnt in the correct order but if you would count them all...i would suspect something like this. The series Naruto will be mostly about others and more about Sasuke actually than Naruto itself.

Except that in the "Kishimoto talks" (you know, that page at the end of the volumes where Kishimoto talks about himself or the manga) of volume 402 Kishimoto said he was drawing "the last part"

The manga is clearly ending. The Uchiha mystery is being solved, Naruto's background has been given. All what's left is Naruto vs Pein, Kabutomaru (which doesn't look like it will be very important) and Madasuke plot against Konoha. People want a war arc, but after seeing Sasuke owning countless fodder and Naruto one-hit-ko one of the toughest guy of the Narutoverse, what would be the point ? Showing how much Narutoverse minus Team7 sucks compared to Team7 ? There can't be much left to do for guys who can't do anything but fight and who are at the level of legends like Madara or a Rinnegan user.

I would be surprised if the mangas went much farther than chapter 500. The manga just happens to be about Naruto, the one who is best friend (well, who thinks he is) with the character leading the plot, not about Naruto, a plot-leading main character.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by BlackShinobi07

So was it true Itach had a girlfriend and some kind disease?

The way you phrase this makes it seem like Itachi caught a venereal disease from his GF and that is why he died (Syphilis, anyone )?

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

How do you know that he has never told about that to anyone, and whether he had cut-off his communication or not? He was a missing-nin for Konoha on the surface, but, in actuality he may not be so, especially for the leaders he was working for.

Jiraiya died. That is all the proof you need. Tsunade would have never killed off Jiraiya if she knew, and Itachi would have only told Sarutobi who would have placed the information in a Hokage-eyes-only folder/scroll. So, since Itachi did not tell, Sarutobi and consequently Tsunade did not know, so Jiraiya's death is now mostly pointless. Sure he knows about Pein, but since most fans claim that Pein was number three on the totom pole, I doubt that knowledge is worth the loss of Jiraiya's life.

Additionally, considering the fact that Itachi had to show up, more or less, at Sarutobi's funeral to send a message to Danzou (that Itachi was alive and well, and more than willing to kill Danzou if he messed with Sasuke), I fell it is more than safe to assume that Itachi never told anyone Konoha about Madara let alone Akatsuki nor did he have any communique sent between himself and the village.

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

Sasuke was spared and Danzou had to wait for 5-6 years to even try to get rid of him. So, the plans were there. If you were referring to Konoha being aware of Madara's existence and his plans to get rid of both Uchihas and Konoha at the same time, what do you expect them to do? What kind of revisions do you propose? None? Or actually go with the first choice they currently have which put both sides in agreement. And, surprisingly being aware of Madara's plans would have actually given Danzou and the elders enough evidence to go with the Uchiha massacre, as it would also stop Madara's plans about Konoha, and he may actually help them with that problem.

Now who is stating facts based on little evidence, or only opinion based evidence (which is what Madara's "evidence" is) ? Just Kidding. I have no idea what other recourse for the Uchiha Clan Massacre there were. To guess, I would probably say Konoha could have blammed someone else, and kept Itachi around to kill Madara. Then again, who knows if the knowledge of Madara would have effected anything in regards to the Uchiha clan massacre. We can say wiithout a doubt, though, that the knowledge of Madara would have changed almost everything else in Konoha. Maybe Sasuke and Naruto would have been actively trained from a young age to deal with these growing threats? Who knows? But to claim that nothing would change at all, is simply perposterous.

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

The fact of the matter is, what you state as fact is definitely not a fact, but just a personal view.

Actually, I mentioned two facts and then based an assertion off of those facts. Fact 1: Itachi withheld this information. Fact 2: Itachi was dealing with Konoha's original arch-nemisis (Madara). My assertion, then based on these facts, was that Itachi might not be as much a Hero as others (including Madara) have claimed.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by james3wk

Jiraiya died. That is all the proof you need.

Proof for what? Proof that Itachi didn't give enough information. As I said, Itachi may not have detailed information on Pain. If Pain was critical to Akatsuki's success and Madara was aware of Itachi's intentions, why do you think that Madara has to give Itachi the information he may need? Itachi may not know a lot about Pain, and Jiraiya's death was his own choice to find out more about Pain. Maybe that choice was also depending on Itachi's future.

Tsunade would have never killed off Jiraiya if she knew, and Itachi would have only told Sarutobi who would have placed the information in a Hokage-eyes-only folder/scroll. So, since Itachi did not tell, Sarutobi and consequently Tsunade did not know, so Jiraiya's death is now mostly pointless.

I think you are presuming that Itachi as a member of Akatsuki needs to know every dirty little secret of the members. He doesn't have to. And, assuming that he has to is not logical. If Itachi knew little about Pain, then all he can give to Konoha is the little piece he knows, nothing more. And, I don't know why you assume that information on Itachi would be common knowledge among Hokages, just because Sandaime would be the information collection point. And, even if there is any, you should take into account the possibility that it may have been eliminated or it may have been passed through unusual means (if you remember Jiraiya's death, you can understand the possibility of something like that).

Sure he knows about Pein, but since most fans claim that Pein was number three on the totom pole, I doubt that knowledge is worth the loss of Jiraiya's life.

He knows about Pain but how much? That is the part neither of us have any information on. And, I don't see a reason to bring what other fans may claim regarding the hierarchy or whatever you are referring to. My question then would, so what? If Pain is key to whatever Madara was planning, Jiraiya's information on him would definitely be worth the cost.

Additionally, considering the fact that Itachi had to show up, more or less, at Sarutobi's funeral to send a message to Danzou (that Itachi was alive and well, and more than willing to kill Danzou if he messed with Sasuke), I fell it is more than safe to assume that Itachi never told anyone Konoha about Madara let alone Akatsuki nor did he have any communique sent between himself and the village.

That is assuming Sandaime was supposed to share what he has learned on Akatsuki through Itachi with Danzou and others. That is just an assumption, similar to the possibility that Sandaime wouldn't have to share anything with Danzou and others, who may have forced the issue further by maybe risking more lives and killing more others. Isn't this how you consider the peace loving Sandaime to be?

Anyways, if there is no information flow between Sandaime and the ones he doesn't trust, the remaining part would just become something to not consider.

Now who is stating facts based on little evidence, or only opinion based evidence (which is what Madara's "evidence" is) ? Just Kidding. I have no idea what other recourse for the Uchiha Clan Massacre there were. To guess, I would probably say Konoha could have blammed someone else, and kept Itachi around to kill Madara. Then again, who knows if the knowledge of Madara would have effected anything in regards to the Uchiha clan massacre. We can say wiithout a doubt, though, that the knowledge of Madara would have changed almost everything else in Konoha. Maybe Sasuke and Naruto would have been actively trained from a young age to deal with these growing threats? Who knows? But to claim that nothing would change at all, is simply perposterous.

We have also just recently learned that some information is better kept as a secret. The changes you expect by enclosing the information may be even worse than what you may have caused by just hiding them. And, it is sometimes better to just hide information on someone to prevent him forget his promises and actively search whatever he is looking for.

Actually, I mentioned two facts and then based an assertion off of those facts. Fact 1: Itachi withheld this information. Fact 2: Itachi was dealing with Konoha's original arch-nemisis (Madara). My assertion, then based on these facts, was that Itachi might not be as much a Hero as others (including Madara) have claimed.

The problem I have with your facts are they are not facts. We don't know anything about your Fact 1. There has been no mention of such a fact. And, your Fact 2 was already reduced to less important level currently by Madara's explanations. He may be lying, I don't know. But, at this point, it is better to trust those, rather than to ignore them.

[BlackShinobi07]

Originally Posted by Medalist

Spoiler for Spoiler Pic:

Nothing epic, but it frustrating that there's so much back-story behind this.

I wouldn't even call that a spoiler pic. Its just like what weve been looking at in the last 3 or 4 or 5, whatever number it may be, chapters.

[TooPurePureBoy]

Sasuke looks like he just took one mega bong rip in that spoiler pic. That's all I got out of it. Otherwise it's the same facial expression he's had for about a month.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

Proof for what? Proof that Itachi didn't give enough information. As I said, Itachi may not have detailed information on Pain. If Pain was critical to Akatsuki's success and Madara was aware of Itachi's intentions, why do you think that Madara has to give Itachi the information he may need? Itachi may not know a lot about Pain, and Jiraiya's death was his own choice to find out more about Pain. Maybe that choice was also depending on Itachi's future.
I think you are presuming that Itachi as a member of Akatsuki needs to know every dirty little secret of the members. He doesn't have to. And, assuming that he has to is not logical. If Itachi knew little about Pain, then all he can give to Konoha is the little piece he knows, nothing more. And, I don't know why you assume that information on Itachi would be common knowledge among Hokages, just because Sandaime would be the information collection point. And, even if there is any, you should take into account the possibility that it may have been eliminated or it may have been passed through unusual means (if you remember Jiraiya's death, you can understand the possibility of something like that).

What are you talking abut? Jiraiya went to Ame to find the Akatuski Leader. If Itachi had provided any info on Akatsuki, then Jiraiya would have known who the Akatsuki Leader was Madara. Itachi's knowledge of the other members is inconsequental, or at least did not matter that much to Jiraiya's mission of finding the Akatsuki Leader.

As to why other Hokages would know about previous Hokage's efforts, well most countries in the real world have presidental diaries that are only accesible by the President and other high ranking officials. The fact that Sarutobi would write down important information like, i don't know, Madara's involvement in the Uchiha massacre, would be a given for any half-way competent leader. Unlesss you are calling Sarutobi a complete failure as a Kage, which would be the only excuse if Sarutobi did not write down or plan for such an important crisis like the rise of Madara.

Itachi not providing adequete information seems to be the only aswer for the current information. But, I fully admit that some other outrageous new information could be revealed in the future that makes Itachi look even greater than he currently is .

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by james3wk

What are you talking abut? Jiraiya went to Ame to find the Akatuski Leader. If Itachi had provided any info on Akatsuki, then Jiraiya would have known who the Akatsuki Leader was Madara. Itachi's knowledge of the other members is inconsequental, or at least did not matter that much to Jiraiya's mission of finding the Akatsuki Leader.

Maybe there was a reason for not telling about Madara to Jiraiya. And, still that doesn't prove Itachi was not giving any information on Akatsuki. Also, I don't agree that information on Pain would be inconsequental. If that would be the case, he wouldn't be created to be a descendant of the ninja god, or whatever that is.

As to why other Hokages would know about previous Hokage's efforts, well most countries in the real world have presidental diaries that are only accesible by the President and other high ranking officials. The fact that Sarutobi would write down important information like, i don't know, Madara's involvement in the Uchiha massacre, would be a given for any half-way competent leader. Unlesss you are calling Sarutobi a complete failure as a Kage, which would be the only excuse if Sarutobi did not write down or plan for such an important crisis like the rise of Madara.

Real world? Well, no countries in real world would have to deal with tailed beasts or ninjas with elemental techniques. The information gathered as a Hokage may not have to be passed down to the future Hokages if it is solely intended for that person's use, rather than Konoha's. If Sandaime were to be trusted with such an information to be the sole carrier, and shares that information, that time, he would be stamped as a failure and an incompetent leader. Yondaime passed the information on Kyuubi's seal to Jiraiya not to Sandaime, even though the matter was a Konoha matter.

Itachi not providing adequete information seems to be the only aswer for the current information.

I am sure both Itachi and Jiraiya are aware of the difficulty of satisfying a third party's curious interests. For them, what they had may be as adequate as it can get.

[X_Danny_X]

Originally Posted by Nine-Tails-Nin

Is it even possible to go past zero in terms of significance? Naruto has long ago been cast into the void.

sad chain of events, but alas it is true. i hope for goodness sakes that this manga lasts long enough for Naruto to get the necessary build up and spotlight, and not just defeat some bad guys by using Shadow clones and Rasengan and then it is all over.



i say, where was it mentioned that this manga is going to end quick or evidence of it?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

Maybe there was a reason for not telling about Madara to Jiraiya. And, still that doesn't prove Itachi was not giving any information on Akatsuki. Also, I don't agree that information on Pain would be inconsequental. If that would be the case, he wouldn't be created to be a descendant of the ninja god, or whatever that is.

It was inconsequential for Jiraiya's mission, which was looking for the Akatsuki Leader. In the respect of Jiraiya's mission, Pein's abilities, no matter how powerful or amazing he may be (possibly even greater than Madara), for the purpose of the mission that Jiraiya was assigned, he failed to find the Akatsuki Leader, who was known, all along by Itachi, even before he left Konoha.

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

Real world? Well, no countries in real world would have to deal with tailed beasts or ninjas with elemental techniques. The information gathered as a Hokage may not have to be passed down to the future Hokages if it is solely intended for that person's use, rather than Konoha's. If Sandaime were to be trusted with such an information to be the sole carrier, and shares that information, that time, he would be stamped as a failure and an incompetent leader. Yondaime passed the information on Kyuubi's seal to Jiraiya not to Sandaime, even though the matter was a Konoha matter.

You seem to have completely ignored my point simply becuase I mentioned the "real world". Despite the pressence of magical powers and demons galore, Konoha functions similiarly to a military organization you will find in the real world. To think that the Hokage would not have a detailed log of events seems horrendously preposterous. Not only would there be no way for a future Hokage to understand their village (especially if the previous Hokage suddenly dies, as was the case with the Second Hokage), but it would be impossible to keep a working order of the various secrets that the village has if a record of events is not kept.

Right now, Sarutobi already looks partially incompetent since Tsunade has not once mentioned that Itachi was potentially working for Konoha (here is hoping that she will mention this to Naruto or at least Kakashi/Sasuke in the next few chapters to at least verify some of what Madara has said.) But, even if Sarutobi did not write down the events surrounding the Uchiha Massacre (for whatever reason), he would have mentioned and prepared for the existance of Madara if he had known. There is no way he would not have prepared for Madara's onsluaght considering the fact that he challenged Konoha upon its foundation. Sarutobi already looks a little stupid if he did not include the "truth" of the Uchiha massacre in some type of scroll for a future Hokage, but if he knew about Madara's involvement, and never attempted to warn others or construct a plan against Madara, then he would be, quite honestly, the worst Hokage in history. In fact, he would have done more to try and destroy Konoha than Orochimaru or even Madara every did.

[james0246]

^Lol, I loved Sasuke collar on his new shirt. Very Hip 1980s style that Kishimoto is showing off for Sasuke .