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View Poll Results: Shin Sekai Yori - Episode 18 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 24 | 38.71% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 23 | 37.10% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 9 | 14.52% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 4 | 6.45% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 1 | 1.61% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 0 | 0% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 0 | 0% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 1 | 1.61% | |
Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll |
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2013-02-03, 13:34 | Link #61 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Whoa, whoa...
You should watch Legend of Galactic Heroes. Also, as someone who lives in a nominally free and democratic country that is rotten to the core, I personally think that while the ideals of democracy are great, the execution thereof will never match up to them because humans will always be humans. Also, to return the topic to where we started - Squealer's little monologue in ep 17 about their colony being a ~democracy~ where each and every individual is valuable, unlike the old ways where they're just pawns to be sacrificed whenever needed, etc. etc..... this coming from Squealer was sketchy to start with, but after this episode? Where his actions pretty much went against of what he preached? Against the reasons he used to take the higher moral ground? Really... Quote:
Really - there's no "bad" side and "good" side in this story. There are just shades of gray (more than 50!). |
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2013-02-03, 13:46 | Link #62 | ||||||
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Yakomaru could be lying, of course, but it's hard for me to see why he would lie here. What does he have to gain by telling the humans of SSY that his people have embraced democracy and egalitarian ideals? Quote:
You wrote "It might be true the queer rats are becoming more human but is our own human society that the queer rats might be emulating really so great?" (bold emphasis mine) To which I replied "It's better than the human society in SSY, imo" Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I should have been, but what I meant by that is that I think that "our own human society" (i.e. modern human society in the real world) is better than the human society in SSY. So better for the Queerats to emulate historical human society than the human society in SSY, imo. Quote:
I have watched it. What's your point? Is there a form of government that you think is better than democracy? Quote:
I don't see anything that happened in this episode that is incompatible with what Yakomaru has already stated pertaining to the ideals that his people ostensibly adhere to. You can't have individual rights if you don't deal with more powerful beings that are oppressing you. That's pretty obvious, if you ask me. At worst, it's an exception that proves the rule. Quote:
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2013-02-03 at 13:59. Reason: Added in reply to kuromitsu. |
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2013-02-03, 14:01 | Link #63 | ||
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Join Date: Aug 2007
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Keep in mind we heard Yakomaru mention democracy but we actually haven't seen that at work. The only thing we have seen is again the way society has advanced from a technological stand point (including these weapons of mass destruction) and turning the queen into a baby factory. Anyways when I said the humans the queer rats are emulating I didn't mean any specific human society but humanity as a whole. I personally don't necessarily have such a bleak view of humanity but I do see a dark side of humanity that is repeating itself within the queer rats. Being human isn't bad per say but that doesn't mean becoming more human has to be something good. Quote:
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2013-02-03, 14:21 | Link #64 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
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In that case I'm sure you haven't missed all its discussion of democracy, the relative merits thereof, etc...
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Sure, he has few choices now. But it's not like he's a victim of the circumstances. Quote:
In the meanwhile... he cooks up a ruse where members of his own allies are murdered in order to deceive the "gods," treats soldiers as pawns to be sacrificed... oh yes, and their queens are so unique individuals with equal rights that they have been turned into lobotomized baby machines. Oh, and his allience includes former colonies that have been annexed by force... Is it just me or is there a tiny bit of hypocrisy here? Quote:
ETA: for what it's worth, I'm not saying that the way the bakenezumi are oppressed is right. I'm also not saying that they shouldn't fight for their rights. I'm only saying that neither side is "better" than the other, and that, in my personal opinion, Squealer is not exactly a heroic freedom fighter who nobly leads his people into battle for Democracy and Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité. And that in my personal opinion, someone can fight for the rights of his people and still be a repulsive individual. Last edited by kuromitsu; 2013-02-03 at 14:45. |
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2013-02-03, 14:41 | Link #65 |
Hiding Under Your Bed
Join Date: May 2008
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Democracy is a political tool to keep the plebians in line. As political tools for that purpose, there are far worse, but the fact that actual rational adults believe in all the fluffy fairy-talk when it comes to what democracy is, simply proves how effective the idea of seeming inclusion is when it comes to a method of rule.
Individuals who want power came to realize that it's easier to keep the rabble in line with high-ideals and seeming inclusion, than tight-fisted authoritarianism and hang-em-all attitude. I'm not arguing for, or against it. I'm of the mind that most people, including me, really don't give two shits what form of government exists when the chips are on the table (as opposed to sitting in the comforts of our modern societies that let us live in ways most of human history wouldn't be able to imagine, as we sip our wine and make high-minded remarks about things on the internet), as long as we get to live our lives below a certain stress level. I do think, of the varied methods of ruling people, democracy has a lot of positives, in that I suspect the stress relief valve on the system is far higher than most other political systems (ie: the point where the people say enough is enough and go about overthrowing things). The major downside is that the illusion of inclusion makes for a poor government when something requires a quick response. Also, while I love Legends of Galactic Heroes, it still managed to retain a bit of naive idealism, despite everything it did to shed a cynical light on the interweaving of politics and society. Nothing particularly wrong with that, but I've often wondered what kind of show it'd have been if it had gone all in on laying out how things (can) work. Lastly, I don't think the purpose of this show is to judge democracy. The rats are obviously an allegory for humanity (an Animal Farm for our times? ), for the purpose of the viewer, so it makes plenty of sense that they'd bring democracy into it. I thought it incredibly amusing (and ironic) when Saki made her remarks about how they shouldn't judge the rats by human ethics/morality. I don't really buy into the idea of species-level self-flagellation, myself, so if the intent of the show (or anything else) is to make me sit in self-reflection and /wrist over the state of humanity, I chuckle and enjoy the story, and move on. I see the story ending in one of two ways (if I'm wrong, please don't tell me via pm): 1) Going all in and ending with the rats as the dominant life form on the planet. As Saki is narrating this story, from what is presumably the "future", this seems unlikely, though if the author had a personality like mine, this entire story would be the result of Saki as a slave to the rat kingdom, in a state of near-catatonic shock, thinking back to her happier times. 2) Taking a more idealistic approach of a more balance partnership between humans, rats, and human's approach to their "power", resulting in a new world that probably doesn't answer any of the zillions of questions of how it would work, but at least ends on an upper, rather than a downer. I'd prefer #1. However, no matter how tragic a story, it usually doesn't earn all sorts of awards and gain mass appeal, like this one apparently has done, if it ends in such a depressing way, so I'm guessing some sort of bloody immediate future is going to result in both the humans and rats to self-reflect and realize the status quo can not work any longer (putting aside whether it can or not from the viewer's perspective).
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2013-02-03, 14:56 | Link #66 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
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This is getting very off-topic so I'll just leave this here--
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I admit I was a bit surprised to see how some people reacted to the show bringing it up (especially with the context it did so), although I guess I shouldn't have been. But frankly, it's made into a bigger deal here than it's supposed to be. |
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2013-02-03, 15:24 | Link #67 | ||||||
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The Queerat living area we most recently saw (the one that Yakomaru showcased to Saki and Satoru just prior to the most recent time-skip) struck me as being considerably more advanced and comfortable than the Queerat living area we saw way back in Episode 4 or so. So I don't think it's just their weapons that are improving. If I did think that, my view on the Queerats would be a bit more cynical, and closer to Kirarakim's. Quote:
When Yakomaru and Kiroumaru both met with the humans an episode ago, my impression was that the humans were making it clear that they weren't taking sides in the obviously brewing Queerat War because they found Yakomaru's story vaguely possible. Basically, I thought that the humans were proclaiming neutrality on Yakomaru's group vs. Kiroumaru's group. Otherwise, why not get directly involved in the war, Satoru-style? Quote:
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Yes, modern society is light years better than what we had in medieval times. And I don't think it's a coincidence that such modern societies tend to be democratic ones. In less democratic societies, people don't always get to "sit in the comforts of their modern societies that let them live in ways most of human history wouldn't be able to imagine, as they sip wine and make high-minded remarks about things on the internet". Quote:
I'm viewing your No. 1 as the best likely end. Part of the reason that I view your No. 2 end as unlikely is that it makes all of "future Saki's" utter doom and gloom narration seem a bit excessive.
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2013-02-03, 15:31 | Link #68 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
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I see something at least more akin to No. 1 of Creb's choices although maybe not exactly in those terms. But if it does turn out to be No. 1 then I don't think I can say that the queerrats are more righteous if they just turn around and do the same thing the humans did to them but then I do expect something like that.
As for Saki I at least hope she and Satoru will escape that fate.
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2013-02-03, 16:16 | Link #70 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Looking forwards to the next episode. Hopefully Squeeler will unleash his secret weapon, whatever it is, and the PKers will start dropping like flies. I know that Saki needs to survive to tell the tale, but as for the rest of them......
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2013-02-03, 16:22 | Link #71 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
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By default, humans don't meddle in colony affairs unless they feel they have to, otherwise they keep it to a minimum level. (Really, aside of using them for manual labor and such, they pretty much leave the bakenezumi alone. Sure, there is oppression in the form of having to obey humans who have power over them and can kill them if they see fit, but otherwise they're relatively autonomous.) As Saki said, even if the bakenezumi have to submit forms for surprise ambushes and the like, the humans won't tell the other side about it because it's not their concern. They keep tabs on bakenezumi in order to know how many of them are there, what they are up to, etc., this where Saki's and Inui's departments come into the picture. In this particular case, the problem was an unannounced attack on a colony belonging to Kiroumaru's colony cluster that is the main labor force provider for humans. This is why it was brought before the council. As Satoru said, this was a breach of rules, that points toward a disrespectful attitude toward humans and a potentially dangerous behavior, and it also affected humans more directly as an attack on their labor force. But since the situation wasn't entirely clear, Kiroumaru and Yakomaru were called in to testify. Since Yakomaru was so good at lying they had to adjourn the meeting without deciding who was at fault. Instead they decided to let the bakenezumi fight it out among themselves. Saki and Inui weren't there for sightseeing, they were there to observe the battle. (If you remember, Saki's boss also went to observe another battle.) And then the rest of the story happened. After everything was done and Kiroumaru's forces were wiped out, it became obvious that 1) the whole conflict between the two small colonies was just a ruse 2) whose aim was to destroy Kiroumaru's forces, 3) and the one behind it was Yakomaru who deceived humans and lied into the council's face, 4) oh and he also has some sort of superweapon. At this point, human intervention against Yakomaru's alliance was guaranteed. And there's no way in hell Yakomaru didn't know that this would happen. So it's not that the bakenezumi were just minding their own business, warring among each other, and the humans unfairly decided to intervene and punish a colony for whatever reason, and the poor things are now fighting for their lives... Yakomaru basically provoked a war with humans while at the same time he dealt with a very powerful potential enemy (Kiroumaru). Last edited by kuromitsu; 2013-02-03 at 16:47. |
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2013-02-03, 17:05 | Link #72 | |
Banned
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I choose number 2. Peace is still the best, in a child's view point. |
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2013-02-03, 17:06 | Link #73 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Austria
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I do wonder about the background, and I can't help but think that it all goes back to the tarantula colony early on. We still don't know why they invaded (or why they captured rather than killed Saki and Satoru). My hunch is that they had a plan that would have challanged the status quo, which Kiroumaru didn't like (since he liked his top-rat position), but which sounded nice to Squealer (since he didn't like his bottom-rat position). At this point, I'd like to mention Saki's introductory narration, which amounted to "silly us; we thought we had nothing to fear". This is a society of cantus users who function on a very tight margin of social control. See the reaction Yakomaru already elicited from Tomiko? The rats attacked the festival for a reason, I'm sure. We might be looking at psychological warfare of the worst kind. What will happen when the first of the villagers snaps? Chain reaction? Oh, and if the rats do have a cantus user (very likely), they may be risking the same thing among themselves. No guarantee their "weapon" won't just blow up in their faces. Would they prefer a fiend or a karma demon, I wonder. |
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2013-02-03, 17:14 | Link #74 | |
Senior Member
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I admittedly had forgotten that little detail. Yes, Yakomaru was clearly snubbing his nose at the humans.
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2013-02-03, 17:15 | Link #75 | |
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2013-02-03, 20:32 | Link #76 |
Math Ninja
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Ventura County CA
Age: 59
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Just out of curiosity, what year was the novel written? Even when authors are writing about another time or another place, they inevitably use imagery from their own world. When Yakomaru talks about the equality and democracy of queerat society, he reminds me of Fidel Castro or Mao Zedong or Nikita Khrushchev. When the queerats who climbed the tower turned out to be wearing suicide vests, it reminded me of al-Qaeda. They do not strike me as "the good guys."
That said, individuals who would ordinarily be "good guys" can be drawn into terrorist-style acts by a leader who's charismatic enough or if they're subject to oppression beyond what they can stand. The humans remind me of the European colonial powers who dominated much of the world through the 19th and 20th centuries, and who the Japanese tried to imitate in the years between the world wars. Spoiler for Don't know if venturing into this territory is allowed here, so...:
The humans carry the seeds of their own destruction. They're all too aware of the obvious one - Cantus without appropriate mental conditioning - but they're blind to their imperialist arrogance toward the queerats. And as for the queerats, they need a Ghandi, not a bin Laden. Somehow, though, I don't think they're going to get one. |
2013-02-03, 22:08 | Link #78 | ||
Behold! We are the Nine!
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Sendai, Japan
Age: 38
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I've never said that they can't say their opinions, I only said that I don't agree with them. I am allowed to voice my thoughts, right? The second part of your post is kind of irrelevant to the issue here. It's not about "what will happen next" but "what do you think about what will happen next". Just because people are going to die doesn't mean that we should cheer for their death. Quote:
And as many people above already said, Yakomaru provoked the human to wage war against him. Everything happened is "keikaku doori". |
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2013-02-03, 23:22 | Link #80 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Age: 38
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I looked it up and Novel was published back in 2008 if that helps.
Okay I'd like to clarify cheering for the death of all the entire village. I'm just saying it is a necessary that needs to be done to wipe the slate clean.
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