Question to Encoders: File Sizes getting out of hand?

[Wadjet]

I am just wondering what the general consensus on a normal file size (MB-wise) for a 24 minute anime ep.

Now it's not that I am complaining, it is just that I come from way back when we were trying to fit 3-5 eps on a cd and I look at file sizes now and I see 400 - 500 MB files @_@ Encoders used to push for file sizes to get smaller while retaining the same video quality. Now it seems it has all gone out the window...

I realize that resolutions have gone up, but I sometimes I see a group release an HD file at @ 200 MB and another @ 370 and I really don't see much of a quality change ( video-wise )

It is to the point now that I almost always download the LQ version of releases if a group makes them, not because my comp can't play it, but because I refuse to have 3 24-minute episodes take up 1.5 gigs on my hard drive.

So really my question is this: Is it just encoders have gotten lazy or bigger files is just how it is nowadays? Are some encoders just taking the HQ raws and muxing them with a sub script?

I love the h264 codec but does it cause video files to take up more space than say xvid?

Just wondering what an encoders take on this.

[KholdStare]

To me, this is only a problem if the group only chose to release in 720p, or possibly DVD rips with 6ch audio. Fortunately, most groups release 480p versions, so I'm still not very pissed at large file sizes yet, but I do mind them.

[Scab]

Originally Posted by Wadjet

I am just wondering what the general consensus on a normal file size (MB-wise) for a 24 minute anime ep.

Depends entirely on the content.

Originally Posted by Wadjet

Now it's not that I am complaining, it is just that I come from way back when we were trying to fit 3-5 eps on a cd and I look at file sizes now and I see 400 - 500 MB files @_@ Encoders used to push for file sizes to get smaller while retaining the same video quality. Now it seems it has all gone out the window...

You must be trolling... This hasn't changed one bit (and it should). 700/3=233, 700/5=140. How many new releases at SD resolution do you honestly see exceeding this? Also, seriously, go back and rewatch the XviD/MP3 fansubs you're referring to. They're nowhere near "retaining the same video quality" and nowhere near the same detail retention as the files you're now comparing them to. If this is seriously up for debate, take this 400-500 MB H.264 file of yours and put it side-by-side with one of the better old releases.

Originally Posted by Wadjet

I realize that resolutions have gone up, but I sometimes I see a group release an HD file at @ 200 MB and another @ 370 and I really don't see much of a quality change ( video-wise )

Don't underestimate the HD resolutions. 704x396 is a mere 30% of 1280x720, 13% of 1920x1080. You can thank H.264 for the fact that HD releases aren't ginormous, yet look miles better than any old 175 MB XviD release. Also, 200 and 370 for the same resolution? That would be a first for me.

Originally Posted by Wadjet

It is to the point now that I almost always download the LQ version of releases if a group makes them, not because my comp can't play it, but because I refuse to have 3 24-minute episodes take up 1.5 gigs on my hard drive.

Magnetic storage media is dirt cheap, CD's have been superseded by DVD's and Blu-Ray Discs, online storage is virtually free, Internet connections are faster than ever. <Oldschool fansubber mode on> Fansubs are not for archiving <Oldschool fansubber mode off>. Look, we're not in 1996, fansubs are in all honesty much smaller now than before in proportion to the storage space available to people. But, if the LQ files suit you better, well, that's what they're there for.

Originally Posted by Wadjet

So really my question is this: Is it just encoders have gotten lazy or bigger files is just how it is nowadays? Are some encoders just taking the HQ raws and muxing them with a sub script?

Some are, the vast majority are not. SD file sizes have not gotten bigger, HD files were always going to to be (hint: compare the size of DVD to the size of HD media).

Originally Posted by Wadjet

I love the h264 codec but does it cause video files to take up more space than say xvid?

Other way around.

[Sylf]

With the proliferation of ever faster internet, the higher quality raws are becoming more accessible. So many people nowadays work off of transport stream raws (straight off of DTV, no filters) or Blu-Ray. That means the encoders now have much better control over how much details to retain - most choose to retain more. If we do this with xvid, the file size would be even bigger. We're benefiting from the power of h.264 that the files are still kept at manageable sizes.

[KholdStare]

Don't start calling people trolls just yet. Some casual viewers only know two quality: streaming and "good." Thus, they may not care for some extra crispy increase in quality that is present nowadays.

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by Wadjet

So really my question is this: Is it just encoders have gotten lazy or bigger files is just how it is nowadays? Are some encoders just taking the HQ raws and muxing them with a sub script?

Encoders have gotten lazy combined with the advances in one button encoding instead of requiring any knowledge about what you are doing are the main causes. Also, being able to just mux a raw with a script and call it an encode is an equally big culprit. (Yes, this is great when you have an awesome encoded small file, but horrible when the average raws used are >175mb for SD.)

Originally Posted by Scab

You must be trolling... This hasn't changed one bit (and it should). 700/3=233, 700/5=140. How many new releases at SD resolution do you honestly see exceeding this?

The rule used to be that everything was 233/175/140, not between 233 and 140 which is where things are now. (People shouldn't be conforming to CD anymore but to DVD which means 170 instead of 175.)

Some are, the vast majority are not. SD file sizes have not gotten bigger, HD files were always going to to be (hint: compare the size of DVD to the size of HD media).

There is definitely SD file size creep. The number of 200mb+ SD TV encodes has been increasing recently. There is no reason for this from TV encodes for the most part. (Certain series are excused from this.)

[Waryas]

IMHO we should just release lossless x264
4-7GB/episode isn't going to kill anyone.

(People shouldn't be conforming to CD anymore but to DVD which means 170 instead of 175.)

I doubt there are that many people that still on DVDs.
HDs are just cheaper ...
Conforming filesize to CD or DVD nowadays is a pretty retarded thing to do.

[Daiz]

More like file sizes getting reasonable. About damn time, I say. 230MB 720p releases look like shit most of the time.

There is definitely SD file size creep. The number of 200mb+ SD TV encodes has been increasing recently. There is no reason for this from TV encodes for the most part. (Certain series are excused from this.)

That's mainly because people have been intelligent enough to move from 400p to 480p for SD. Also about damn time.

[Scab]

Originally Posted by KholdStare

Don't start calling people trolls just yet. Some casual viewers only know two quality: streaming and "good." Thus, they may not care for some extra crispy increase in quality that is present nowadays.

What's your point?

Originally Posted by bayoab

The rule used to be that everything was 233/175/140, not between 233 and 140 which is where things are now. (People shouldn't be conforming to CD anymore but to DVD which means 170 instead of 175.)

People shouldn't be conforming to physical media sizes at all. Stop aiming for specific file sizes and start aiming for specific quality levels.

[KholdStare]

My point is ignorance =/= troll, even though that's how certain people use that word these days.

[Scab]

I suppose that's possible. You just have to wonder when these observations are so deeply flawed.

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by Scab

People shouldn't be conforming to physical media sizes at all. Stop aiming for specific file sizes and start aiming for specific quality levels.

I'm sure you mean the opposite of this, but that is what people used to do. "It's 175 and looks awesome, but I'm sure I can make it look the same and smaller." (I'm sure you mean that they should aim for quality and ignore how bloated it gets.) Now it appears to be "It's 175 and this 1 frame looks like crap, guess I'll make it 233." Also, I don't see whats wrong with the standard <175mb XviD/h.264 quality if you subscribe to the school of:

Originally Posted by Scab

<Oldschool fansubber mode on> Fansubs are not for archiving <Oldschool fansubber mode off>.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by bayoab

Encoders have gotten lazy combined with the advances in one button encoding instead of requiring any knowledge about what you are doing are the main causes. Also, being able to just mux a raw with a script and call it an encode is an equally big culprit. (Yes, this is great when you have an awesome encoded small file, but horrible when the average raws used are >175mb for SD.)

There is definitely SD file size creep. The number of 200mb+ SD TV encodes has been increasing recently. There is no reason for this from TV encodes for the most part. (Certain series are excused from this.)

I don't see any big changes between Encoder competence/laziness in the past and nowadays. You always had and have a selection of very competent ones and lazy clueless bums. If you insist on trends, the overall competence nowadays is a tad higher because the tools in use have become more powerful.

The proper filesize decision needs to be based ENTIRELY on the source. And in order to avoid more pointless SD/MHD/HD discussions, I'll just say that as a rough rule of thumb, most shows that warrant a full 720p release require a 233-size release for the 480p version, if you want to avoid significant quality loss. The quality of transport stream sources exceed the quality of DVDs nowadays in most cases, and even in DVD times, release sizes of 340m per episode weren't unusual.

The rule used to be that everything was 233/175/140, not between 233 and 140 which is where things are now. (People shouldn't be conforming to CD anymore but to DVD which means 170 instead of 175.)

That kind of comment coming from YOU? O_o

Well, it also depends on the number of episodes. A 24- or 25-episode anime can be upgraded to 350/175 megs and still match DVD-R formats while maximizing CD restrictions. And according to my observations, most quality groups still adhere to the 340/233/171 scheme.

[Scab]

Originally Posted by bayoab

I'm sure you mean the opposite of this, but that is what people used to do. [...]

I meant exactly what I wrote. Also, in my world, wanting the video to look good and the audio to sound good does not require a desire to archive whatever it is I'm watching. Not that I'm necessarily saying you shouldn't, it was just an argument (hence the "mode" bit).

[Wadjet]

Again I'll just say I am not trolling, I just wanted to know how todays encoders are viewing the subject.

Not every group releases an SD or LQ version, and sometimes the LQ version of some groups really are LQ. Thats why I asked about the codec.

I thought that the better the codec the smaller the file sizes, but it just seems that the sizes are just getting bigger.

I just want to know if the encoder mentality now is to try to hit a certian file size, or whatever comes out thats what it is. It's true that storage is cheaper nowadays and bandwidth is faster, but let's not forget some people have bandwidth caps.


So yeah just wanted to know if an encoder runs an ep thru avisynth or whatever they do and it comes out at like 500.5 MB and it looks great do they actually try to bring the file size down some while keeping quality or just release as-is because bandwidth is faster and people have bigger hard drives.


Please don't flame I am just trying to gauge today's mentality. I know back in the day (yes 1996 ) encoders took pride in having the smallest file sizes and best quality

On a side note I dont archive anime I download, for one I HATE burning DVDs. I consider myself lazy enough that if I wanna watch a show and it's not on my hard drive, I don't wanna watch it anymore. I just keep certain series on my HD and once it starts to fill up I just delete older ones. That's the real reason why I posted this topic because the number of series on my hard drives is getting smaller and smaller...

[Scab]

Originally Posted by Wadjet

I thought that the better the codec the smaller the file sizes, but it just seems that the sizes are just getting bigger.

The better the codec the better the compression. This can be used in different ways, smaller file sizes being one of them. Keep in mind that older releases with older codecs are nowhere near perfect, so assuming your source allows it, it makes perfect sense to aim for a better-looking video rather than to just trim down the file size.

[False Dawn]

Considering lossless from transport streams can exceed 8GB, I think releases in the 500MB mark are still reasonable. You can't really compare the current releases with older releases because of the advances in technology and the encoding practices that have been put into place now. And can you really see anyone making a decent 720p release at 170MB? If I'm downloading hi-res releases, I want them to be as good as possible - otherwise I just dl the SD version, right? (assuming the group releases an SD version)

[Dark Shikari]

Part of it is better sources, so you need more bitrate to keep the original quality.

Part of it is people switching to HD, despite the fact that the vast majority of the sources are upscaled crap.

Part of it is the fact that people encode with a target bitrate instead of with CRF mode, so they waste enormous amounts of bits completely needlessly to get quantizers around 12.

I used CRF18 (way, way unnecessarily high quality) for the last SD anime episode I encoded: the result was 136MB including the audio. Most of the bitrates people use these days are totally unnecessary because they insist on making every episode, regardless of content, the same size; just use CRF and get over it. Nobody backs up to CDs anymore anyways.

[dj_tjerk]

I don't think CRF18 is that high, but then again I might be using totally different settings (I don't like using psyrdo for most anime). Also, how does crf scale with resolution?

[TheFluff]

Originally Posted by Waryas

IMHO we should just release lossless x264

just release the transport stream instead, 2gb of 1440x1080i mpeg2 per episode will just make people dance from joy, it's PERFECT QUALITY after all (and fuck you if your computer isn't fast enough to ivtc on the fly)

Seriously though, 340MB is perfectly reasonable for 720p HDTV broadcasts. There are cases where you can squeeze a bit more out without losing too much quality, and there are cases with a lot of grain and/or motion and/or 5.1 audio where you have to up the filesize a bit more, but most shows fit fine in 340MB.

SDTV broadcast shows (or upscaled SD shows capped off "HDTV") aren't really worth bothering with, they'll look like shit no matter what you do so just stick to 170MB. No one cares about SD anyway.

If you do DVD's and/or blurays though just go for the gold at whatever size you deem necessary; archive quality is archive quality after all.