Ore no Imouto - Episode 8 Discussion / Poll

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Yes, I agree. This episode provides a perfect illustration of the "problem" and hints very clearly at the answers. This is why the argument with the anime writer is important, and the reasons for his wanting to re-write the story (and the argument that convinced him and the rest of the producers to change their mind) was shown. This episode was the very epitome of "Kirino being Kirino" (acting with presumptive arrogance and generally being unworthy of being saved) and "Kyousuke being Kyousuke" (debasing himself for Kirino's sake) but for the first time they actually pulled back the curtain and, through both example and deliberate questioning, opened the door to actually resolving the key issues between the two characters. He said he hates her. He admitted he was jealous of her. They illustrated clearly that she doesn't "deserve it" and that -- just like the viewers in this thread! -- there's real reason to wonder why she shouldn't be left to fail rather than having Kyousuke bail her out. He could be like Kuroneko postulated and gloat in her failure but, in the end, he doesn't. (Neither does Kuroneko, importantly enough.) They left Kyousuke with the question "Why do you go so far for Kirino?" What's the truth? It's a logical follow-up to episode 6 (which put this very problem on display), and flows nicely into the twist at the end, which should bring the issue to a head. We're now on the road to the conclusion, right where you'd expect to be with 4 episodes left.

Indeed, I'm expecting the next episode to explode with rage. The way the development has been progressing, the only likely outcome of Kirino's final request is gonna be a doozy.

I also have a feeling that someone spilled the beans on what happened in the meeting as well.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Yes, I agree. This episode provides a perfect illustration of the "problem" and hints very clearly at the answers. This is why the argument with the anime writer is important, and the reasons for his wanting to re-write the story (and the argument that convinced him and the rest of the producers to change their mind) was shown. This episode was the very epitome of "Kirino being Kirino" (acting with presumptive arrogance and generally being unworthy of being saved) and "Kyousuke being Kyousuke" (debasing himself for Kirino's sake) but for the first time they actually pulled back the curtain and, through both example and deliberate questioning, opened the door to actually resolving the key issues between the two characters. He said he hates her. He admitted he was jealous of her. They illustrated clearly that she doesn't "deserve it" and that -- just like the viewers in this thread! -- there's real reason to wonder why she shouldn't be left to fail rather than having Kyousuke bail her out. He could be like Kuroneko postulated and gloat in her failure but, in the end, he doesn't. (Neither does Kuroneko, importantly enough.) They left Kyousuke with the question "Why do you go so far for Kirino?" What's the truth? It's a logical follow-up to episode 6 (which put this very problem on display), and flows nicely into the twist at the end, which should bring the issue to a head. We're now on the road to the conclusion, right where you'd expect to be with 4 episodes left.

There's a happy medium between not coddling someone, and outright gloating when someone fails. Unless I missed something, nobody on this thread has said that Kyousuke should stop helping Kirino out of every tough situation she finds herself in, and then turn around and gloat if/when she gets burned. Many people on this thread have just said that he needs to let her handle her own problems herself more.

Putting that aside, the problem with the anime pulling back the curtain and raising these questions that we the fans are asking is that Kyousuke's answer "Because I'm her brother" isn't particularly compelling in and of itself.

Sure, what the anime is doing with this episode could lead into a good conclusion, but that's by no means certain. Let's wait and see if the anime manages to do that or not before we take that as a good defense of the massive changes this anime made for this particular episode.

[Dr. Casey]

Fuck yeah, this episode got Avatar posting again.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Many people here, including myself, have argued that this anime episode is showing Kyousuke going way too far for his sister. That he's spoiling or babying or coddling her by doing what he does for her in this episode.

Out of curiosity, why do you think he's babying her with this? I'd agree if he was asking them to cater to some of the more silly ideas like having a new opening and closing for every single episode, but the anime company was going to bastardize her story to the point where the adaptation was almost pointless because it barely even resembled the original work. Bastardizing someone's story might be more of a gray area than stealing it, but I still think that in both versions Kyosuke was just defending Kirino from someone that was wronging her; it's disrespectful to both the author and the story itself to change someone's work to the extent that the company intended to, and since the meeting's express purpose was to tweak the anime, Kyosuke was just doing something they basically invited him to do (And which Kirino couldn't do because she was sick). I do think that Kyosuke might pamper her in general and that this episode might reflect more poorly because of that overall tendency, but taking this episode as an isolated incident I was definitely cheering him on.

And moving on to a random thought, I don't think she was being a spoiled brat in making so many demands at first, since I know that some people here at AnimeSuki and elsewhere have thought that. I just think she's young and doesn't know how the anime world works or the amount of resources that are needed for some of the things that are done; maybe she's just wowed by all the special effects and sweeping orchestras and crap in anime and assumed anime companies could easily do anything. Kirino's only 14, and I know that when I was 13 I had plans to make epic RPGs on my computer that would have been completely impossible even for the early PS2 games of the time.

[Hypernova]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

I just think she's young and doesn't know how the anime world works or the amount of resources that are needed for some of the things that are done; maybe she's just wowed by all the special effects and sweeping orchestras and crap in anime and assumed anime companies could easily do anything. Kirino's only 14, and I know that when I was 13 I had plans to make epic RPGs on my computer that would have been completely impossible even for the early PS2 games of the time.

She may be young but she is a also a working model, she does have experience working with a team/crew, in fact one would expect her to have better grasp of working with professionals than the average 14 year old.

[HayashiTakara]

People need to realize that people cannot handle everything themselves. There will always come a time when people need help. This is true in all facets of life. Kirino is a hard worker, she works herself to exhaustion that's what one of the scenes was portraying. Kyousuke just happens to fill in those gaps in which she needs that certain someone when she has no one to turn to.

Kirino is self-sufficient and independent, therefore has a hard time turning to help. This adds to her tsundere personality. She's proud and headstrong, making it difficult to show a weaker side. I do not fault her for this, as it's an excuse for her behavior. There are some tsundere characters that are bitch by default without no true bearings for their personality, it's just how they are.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Putting that aside, the problem with the anime pulling back the curtain and raising these questions that we the fans are asking is that Kyousuke's answer "Because I'm her brother" isn't particularly compelling in and of itself.

You don't say...

His "Because I'm her brother" answer on its own is a cop-out. It's a pat answer that just seemed like an obvious way to dodge the question given that he may not be able to (or want to) articulate the full reason. But it isn't an entirely wrong answer either, and Kuroneko's "must be nice" reply showed some understanding of that.

This was an episode about jealousy, and where the resolution of the central plot revolved around the guilt and shame of having that jealousy exposed and an appeal to show Kirino some consideration. In the context of this story, I'd say that's some pretty important stuff.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Sure, what the anime is doing with this episode could lead into a good conclusion, but that's by no means certain. Let's wait and see if the anime manages to do that or not before we take that as a good defense of the massive changes this anime made for this particular episode.

If the writer was in the habit of making arbitrary changes that were nonsensical and didn't contribute to the narrative, I might agree with you. But the same writer planned the entire script for this anime and has written every episode so far. He was astute and intentioned enough to make major changes in an episode whose plot revolved around an anime making major changes to the source material (while the subject switched from novel to anime to reflect the medium of the adaptation). Despite the novel summaries given, the changes made in this episode still seemed intentioned and focused -- they keep this season of the anime revolving around one central theme (rather than expanding too much in other directions that could be explored in future seasons). The episode also actually affirmed the questions that you and other viewers have been asking yourselves for weeks now. Given all of this, I don't see why we should question whether this is all going to add up in the end. But then again, I am of the opinion that things have been adding up so far.

Contrary to your insinuation elsewhere, I do not always feel this way, but I am not inclined to talk at length about things I find illogical or nonsensical. To me, this show is neither of those things; at least to me, it makes sense.

[Himeji]

Pretty good episode, actually, as it explains a lot about Kyousuke's backgrounds. The insights into the animefication of a novel are interesting as well.
Kyousuke says two times this episode that he hates Kirino - but it was they way he said it. You only say something that way when you want to convince yourself of it, because in reality you're feeling quite the opposite.
This is showing how much he has come to like Kirino already, a good way of development from the beginning where he actually did hate her.

The reason for Kyousuke's hate becomes very apparent from Kuroneko's speech. Kirino is some sort of "King Midas" - whatever she touches, turns into gold. She's very successful in school, she's very successful at sports, she's very successful as a model, and now she's very successful with her novel, so that it gets an anime. Kyousuke probably had a hard time dealing with all that, because himself was always pretty average. So he's always been living in Kirino's shadow, seeing how she frequently got praised by the parents for her achievements, while he didn't have any. Over time, comparing himself with Kirino, Kyousuke must've developed a very low self-esteem, thinking of himself as totally useless, and started to hate Kirino out of envy for her being so successful.

When he then discovers her secret anime/eroge hobby, his image of the "perfect" little sister starts to change. Her hobby, and the problems that it brings with it (e.g. no appreciation from her father and her model friends) shows him that even his sister which he thought to be "perfect" has problems of her own, and he starts feeling with her and stops hating her.

Now on the issue why he's always helping her, most times even without getting anything in return. This is because he had developed a very low self-esteem, constantly comparing himself with always successful Kirino. When her father found out about Kirino's hobby, Kirino recognised this as a chance - his very first chance to actually prove his self worth, to prove that he's not totally useless. First and before anything else, he wanted to prove his self worth to himself, not to anyone else. So he defends her in front of his father, even at the cost of destroying what little reputation he still has, to show to himself that he's not useless, that he can do something and help his little sister. Same goes for the other times he helps her, he wants to prove his self worth, and he's glad that he can finally help her with something (something he deemed impossible this far, which contributed to him feeling useless). If he can help her with his actions and can make her feel better, that alone is already reward enough to him, even if he doesn't get anything in return.

That he's totally spoiling her with that is quite another matter still. Kirino is showing some development as well, even if she is unable to fully show how grateful she actually is, and can't properly express herself there. She did make an attempt at showing her affection by going on a date with him, but due to Kyousuke being so uber-dense (see his reactions towards Manami), and due to them being so totally different, this didn't work well.

Kirino's development at the end of this episode shows that she is starting to feel uncomfortable at her big brother doing anything for her and standing himself back, and she is starting to feel guilty for it. That's why she said that the next "life counseling" will be the last time. This will undoubtingly change their relationship - it remains to be seen in which way.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Most of Kirino's requests I felt were reasonable. Suggesting some specific voice actors, requesting a specific artistic team... that seems reasonable to me.

But a different OP for each and every anime episode?
When it's 52 episodes in length?

In complete seriousness, it wasn't just that she had some requests - which would be fine - but it was the sheer number of them, and the outlandishness of some of them.

Yes, most of Kirino's suggestions were reasonable (like suggesting voice actors), but with other things (like expecting 52 episodes) she goes totally overboard. You'll have to consider though that she's got no experience as to what is realistic and what is not, and also, she's used to always be successful.
It would've probably been better for her character growth if they had insisted on doing *some* changes (e.g. making the main character male), withouth going totally overboard on their side and changing it into something that hardly resembles the novel anymore.

[Kotohono]

Originally Posted by Himeji

Yes, most of Kirino's suggestions were reasonable (like suggesting voice actors), but with other things (like expecting 52 episodes) she goes totally overboard. You'll have to consider though that she's got no experience as to what is realistic and what is not, and also, she's used to always be successful.

Kirino never asked for 52 episodes , she asked for 52 SONGS, she specifically asked "Would it be possible to change opening and ending every episode? So, 52 total Songs." And 52 / 2 = 26 episodes, which is the standard length for a full season anime, a reasonable assumption, or so I thought anyways

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Contrary to your insinuation elsewhere, I do not always feel this way, but I am not inclined to talk at length about things I find illogical or nonsensical. To me, this show is neither of those things; at least to me, it makes sense.

What's the point of setting up all the questions for the audience easy-bake style? YES, we have been asking these questions, and now they raise them to the audience clearly for anyone to see it in plain site.

Now despite may what happen in the future episodes, this episode was a waste of time in plot progression. It did nothing to help it, especially considering that our main focus in this story (Kirinio) has no idea what happened. All it has accomplished is that it is now setting the show up for a massive failure if they cannot adequately answer the questions presented for the most of the audience.

Moreover, I express a large amount of doubt that the writers for this anime are going to be able to present to us a reason large enough to justify the actions of these characters. There's no tension underneath each scene to hint at it at all. We have only ever had 1 scene where Kirino told Kyousuke, "Now you choose to act like a big brother."

But here we are again... This is why I talk about Kirino being such an unlikable character so much. She HAS EVERYTHING she could possibly want and dream of at this time of her life and she's only freaking 14. What could honestly have been so bad that its still causing Kirino to act the way she does towards HER BROTHER. It just doesn't add up. If there was honestly something so life changing, she'd be acting different IN GENERAL.

This sir, does not make sense, and I doubt it will ever make sense. Kirino is simply a badly written character,and it's going to be hard to change my mind on that front (This goes beyond simple dislike).

[Dr. Casey]

I miss the days where 26 episode series were the standard and longer ones weren't that uncommon. I hope the "almost every show ever is one cour" crap from the last few years ends at some point.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Himeji

Now on the issue why he's always helping her, most times even without getting anything in return. This is because he had developed a very low self-esteem, constantly comparing himself with always successful Kirino. When her father found out about Kirino's hobby, Kirino recognised this as a chance - his very first chance to actually prove his self worth, to prove that he's not totally useless. First and before anything else, he wanted to prove his self worth to himself, not to anyone else. So he defends her in front of his father, even at the cost of destroying what little reputation he still has, to show to himself that he's not useless, that he can do something and help his little sister. Same goes for the other times he helps her, he wants to prove his self worth, and he's glad that he can finally help her with something (something he deemed impossible this far, which contributed to him feeling useless). If he can help her with his actions and can make her feel better, that alone is already reward enough to him, even if he doesn't get anything in return.

I guess my read is a tiny bit more cynical in a way. I think it does have to do with self-esteem, but there's also a bit of guilt as well. Certainly finding out that his oh-so-perfect sister actually needed the oh-so-normal him for something must have been a bit of an ego boost. He found out that she actually does have a flaw, and that in turn makes her more human. In the process, though, he realized that she's actually a hard worker who does care for more than just herself and her own image, and that's when I think the guilt over his jealousy started to play a role. In a way, I think he is "paying amends" for not having been there for Kirino in the past. It's sort of natural to defend Kirino for the one thing that brings her down to a human level in his mind; that's the only way he has to relate to her. Without that, she'd go back to being on an entirely different level out of his reach again, and I don't think he actually wants that. Which is why the twist of the "last counselling session" is important -- they'll have to actually define what their relationship is "for real" now. To progress, they have to be able to see each other as equals at some point, and there's still a fairly big gulf that separates them. Basically, I don't think Kyousuke really liked the distance from Kirino anymore than she did; he put up with her attitude and selfishness thus far in no small part because the alternative was renewed estrangement, and I'm not sure if that's really the sort of life he wants. So to end this show in the next 4 episodes, I am assuming that the story will have to present Kyousuke with a possibility to return to his earlier "normal" life estranged from Kirino, but have him reject that and make the choice -- deliberately -- to after her and pursue the relationship further. This ties us back to the start of episode 1, and closes the loop at least for this season.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Reckoner

What's the point of setting up all the questions for the audience easy-bake style? YES, we have been asking these questions, and now they raise them to the audience clearly for anyone to see it in plain site.

Now despite may what happen in the future episodes, this episode was a waste of time in plot progression. It did nothing to help it, especially considering that our main focus in this story (Kirinio) has no idea what happened.

They didn't just setup the questions -- they setup the answers to them. It was a transition point. We finally see exposed Kyousuke's jealousy of Kirino, his "hatred" of her, and the question of why he's doing this. This has been running in the back of some viewers minds for a while, but without being directly addressed by the anime (a complaint from some last week). It doesn't matter whether Kirino does or doesn't find out about what Kyousuke did for her at the meeting, because what is at hand is his feelings for her. Until now the anime hasn't really given all that much insight into it.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

But here we are again... This is why I talk about Kirino being such an unlikable character so much. She HAS EVERYTHING she could possibly want and dream of at this time of her life and she's only freaking 14. What could honestly have been so bad that its still causing Kirino to act the way she does towards HER BROTHER. It just doesn't add up. If there was honestly something so life changing, she'd be acting different IN GENERAL.

Because until recently she didn't have a brother. He was so frickin' jealous of her that he ignored her; they had no relationship at all. As he said in this episode, he hated her. And now all of a sudden he decides to put on the big brother act. Wouldn't you be a bit mistrustful if you were in her shoes? It's not like there's some single traumatic event -- it's much worse. It's a long, continued pattern of resentment that builds up over time. Those are the hardest wounds to heal. You can't expect her to be like "oh, hey, Kyousuke, I've been waiting for the last <x> years for you to stop treating me like a stranger, but now that you are I'm okay with this". Neither of them have ever even apologized.

[Yuutsu]

Oh my god. Do I ever hate Kirino with a burning passion....

She seemed fairly cute, albeit somewhat bitchy, in the first 2 or 3 episodes, but any good impression that I had for her quickly derailed once I realize that she was composed of 99% bitchy, 0.10% cute, and 0.90% of the highest quality I-am-trying-my-best-to-make-you-hate-me.

I'm normally a pretty mellow guy, but even I got into a bad mood after watching how she acted near the end of episode 8, where she thought that it was her plea that convinced the studio to change their minds - or whatever she thought she accomplished. I'm not even going to ask why Kyousuke puts up with this crap. At this point, I don't care.

That being said, Kuroneko/Manami ending, pl0x.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

I do think that Kyosuke might pamper her in general and that this episode might reflect more poorly because of that overall tendency, but taking this episode as an isolated incident I was definitely cheering him on.

As an isolated incident, it's fine. Nothing wrong whatsoever with Kyousuke helping out Kirino with an issue like this every now and then. The problem is that it's becoming part of an overarching pattern of behavior for Kyousuke where he refuses to let Kirino handle any of these sorts of things herself.

Kirino is doing great at school and as a fashion model - things that might not require a great deal of social skills. Anything involving good communication or social skills (handling a dispute with a parent, handling a dispute with a best friend, handling a tough negotiation with an animation studio), Kyousuke keeps helping Kirino out. This may be harming the development of Kirino's social skills.

And while watching someone's creative work get a significantly less than faithful anime adaptation is certainly not pleasant, it's just not on the level of actual creative theft. Stealing a popular creative work (and claiming it as your own) is a serious and very harmful crime. It's definitely the sort of thing that if it happens to a close family member of yours, you try to help him or her out, imo.

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Kirino is self-sufficient and independent, therefore has a hard time turning to help.

She's self-sufficient and independent when it comes to career and school success. But she has leaned very heavily on Kyousuke from the very first episode of this anime for help with anything of a more social nature. In addition to what I wrote before, remember that Kyousuke played a key role in helping Kirino make friends with Kuroneko and Saori.

Kirino's "people skills", for lack of a better term perhaps, are not getting a chance to develop or grow.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

This was an episode about jealousy,

The original LN material (that coincides with this episode) dealt plenty with jealousy.

...and where the resolution of the central plot revolved around the guilt and shame of having that jealousy exposed and an appeal to show Kirino some consideration. In the context of this story, I'd say that's some pretty important stuff.

I didn't really get a sense of guilt or shame from Kuroneko or Kyousuke here. Just a frank admittance. It might be good that the anime is raising some of the same questions that we fans are. Now it's up to the anime to answer them in a compelling fashion.

If the writer was in the habit of making arbitrary changes that were nonsensical and didn't contribute to the narrative, I might agree with you.

In my opinion, the original LN story (as described by Undertaker under a spoiler section) made for a much more enjoyable story and sounder character development than what we had in this episode. Now, future events may render these changes worth it. But there's no reason yet to assume that they will.

Because barring such future positive events, the changes we saw with this anime episode may just be such nonsensical changes.

Despite the novel summaries given, the changes made in this episode still seemed intentioned and focused

That doesn't mean they weren't a mistake.

E8 in Haruhi 2009 was very clearly intentioned and focused. A lot of people would also say it was a mistake on Kyoto Animation's part.

they keep this season of the anime revolving around one central theme (rather than expanding too much in other directions that could be explored in future seasons).

I don't see where the original LN story would constitute going too much in other directions. If anything, I think that many fans would be relieved by it, as from my take on what Undertaker wrote, it finally showed a softer and less demanding side of Kirino. Which we're certainly not getting with this anime episode. This anime episode is taking a real risk of turning a lot of fans off from Kirino entirely, and just totally giving up on her. I personally was hoping that something was finally going to give in this episode, and we'd see a softer and different side of Kirino. And we probably would have saw that if the anime had chosen to stick more closely to the LN.

The episode also actually affirmed the questions that you and other viewers have been asking yourselves for weeks now.

True. But the original LN story would not have merely affirmed these questions; it may have started the process of putting them to rest. Whether this anime original approach does or not remains to be seen, imo.


Edit:

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

And now all of a sudden he decides to put on the big brother act.

If this is an act, Kyousuke should be getting an Academy Award.

Wouldn't you be a bit mistrustful if you were in her shoes?

Why should she be?

He saved her entire anime/eroge/manga collection from a strict father.

He took a fall in order for her to maintain a close friendship.

He bought her expensive jewelry at her request.

Unless this is some shady person trying to seduce you, these are not the actions of someone you can't trust. Quite the contrary, these are clearly the actions of a brother who wants to make a closer bond with his sister. A lot of us here on this thread just want Kirino to start reciprocating for all of this, and be nice to the poor guy for a change.

[DragoZERO]

Hmm... I think everything has been said in the past seven pages, so yeah.

Really, great episode. Kuroneko sure did make things interesting too. I'm surprised Saori didn't speak up more too.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

They didn't just setup the questions -- they setup the answers to them. It was a transition point. We finally see exposed Kyousuke's jealousy of Kirino, his "hatred" of her, and the question of why he's doing this. This has been running in the back of some viewers minds for a while, but without being directly addressed by the anime (a complaint from some last week). It doesn't matter whether Kirino does or doesn't find out about what Kyousuke did for her at the meeting, because what is at hand is his feelings for her. Until now the anime hasn't really given all that much insight into it.

Little difference because there were no available answers. Now they have they have to go through the trouble of setting up the answers all over again. How is this not a waste of time?

Personally I saw episode 6 as more of a transitioning episode than this one. Episode 6 showed how Kyousuke normally lives life before he got involved in Kirino's affairs and then it raised the question of "what is he going to do now?" So far it seems like he's been ignoring the question or feigning ignorance and its getting a little tiresome.

And we already knew he was annoyed by his sister. Having him reaffirm that this episode just makes the character look confused and irrational. If for some reason they cannot provide an adequate explanation for his actions... What then?

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Because until recently she didn't have a brother. He was so frickin' jealous of her that he ignored her; they had no relationship at all. As he said in this episode, he hated her. And now all of a sudden he decides to put on the big brother act. Wouldn't you be a bit mistrustful if you were in her shoes? It's not like there's some single traumatic event -- it's much worse. It's a long, continued pattern of resentment that builds up over time. Those are the hardest wounds to heal. You can't expect her to be like "oh, hey, Kyousuke, I've been waiting for the last <x> years for you to stop treating me like a stranger, but now that you are I'm okay with this". Neither of them have ever even apologized.

Hold up. He's hated her, sure. But you're insinuating that the one who made the gap between them was Kyyousuke himself. There's no evidence about that yet.

Who was the one who started this chian of resentment? Often jealously stays below the surface, and doesn't necessarily directly affect the relationship until it hits a breaking point. I find it hard to believe that Kyousuke would be such a resentful character, when he's been shown from the very beginning of this show to be anything but that (Unlike Kirino).

I suppose time will tell on this one.

[HayashiTakara]

Spoiler for snip:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

As an isolated incident, it's fine. Nothing wrong whatsoever with Kyousuke helping out Kirino with an issue like this every now and then. The problem is that it's becoming part of an overarching pattern of behavior for Kyousuke where he refuses to let Kirino handle any of these sorts of things herself.

Kirino is doing great at school and as a fashion model - things that might not require a great deal of social skills. Anything involving good communication or social skills (handling a dispute with a parent, handling a dispute with a best friend, handling a tough negotiation with an animation studio), Kyousuke keeps helping Kirino out. This may be harming the development of Kirino's social skills.

And while watching someone's creative work get a significantly less than faithful anime adaptation is certainly not pleasant, it's just not on the level of actual creative theft. Stealing a popular creative work (and claiming it as your own) is a serious and very harmful crime. It's definitely the sort of thing that if it happens to a close family member of yours, you try to help him or her out, imo.




She's self-sufficient and independent when it comes to career and school success. But she has leaned very heavily on Kyousuke from the very first episode of this anime for help with anything of a more social nature. In addition to what I wrote before, remember that Kyousuke played a key role in helping Kirino make friends with Kuroneko and Saori.

Kirino's "people skills", for lack of a better term perhaps, are not getting a chance to develop or grow.




The original LN material (that coincides with this episode) dealt plenty with jealousy.



I didn't really get a sense of guilt or shame from Kuroneko or Kyousuke here. Just a frank admittance. It might be good that the anime is raising some of the same questions that we fans are. Now it's up to the anime to answer them in a compelling fashion.




In my opinion, the original LN story (as described by Undertaker under a spoiler section) made for a much more enjoyable story and sounder character development than what we had in this episode. Now, future events may render these changes worth it. But there's no reason yet to assume that they will.

Because barring such future positive events, the changes we saw with this anime episode may just be such nonsensical changes.




That doesn't mean they weren't a mistake.

E8 in Haruhi 2009 was very clearly intentioned and focused. A lot of people would also say it was a mistake on Kyoto Animation's part.




I don't see where the original LN story would constitute going too much in other directions. If anything, I think that many fans would be relieved by it, as from my take on what Undertaker wrote, it finally showed a softer and less demanding side of Kirino. Which we're certainly not getting with this anime episode. This anime episode is taking a real risk of turning a lot of fans off from Kirino entirely, and just totally giving up on her. I personally was hoping that something was finally going to give in this episode, and we'd see a softer and different side of Kirino. And we probably would have saw that if the anime had chosen to stick more closely to the LN.




True. But the original LN story would not have merely affirmed these questions; it may have started the process of putting them to rest. Whether this anime original approach does or not remains to be seen, imo.


Edit:



If this is an act, Kyousuke should be getting an Academy Award.




Why should she be?

He saved her entire anime/eroge/manga collection from a strict father.

He took a fall in order for her to maintain a close friendship.

He bought her expensive jewelry at her request.

Unless this is some shady person trying to seduce you, these are not the actions of someone you can't trust. Quite the contrary, these are clearly the actions of a brother who wants to make a closer bond with his sister. A lot of us here on this thread just want Kirino to start reciprocating for all of this, and be nice to the poor guy for a change.

I'm sorry but you've missed her entirely. There is nothing wrong with Kirino's social skills. She's only blunt with Kyousuke, Kuroneko and Saori. She maintains a facade with everyone else to maintain the "perfect" girl image. The way she is at school and work is completely different from when she's with the others.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I didn't really get a sense of guilt or shame from Kuroneko or Kyousuke here.

The person who was shamed for his jealousy was the anime writer. The person who was vindicated for admitting her jealousy was Kuroneko. The person who has not yet admitted his jealousy is Kyousuke (but he did admit it to us as viewers). Instead, he shamed himself by prostrating himself before the producers and begging them to show Kirino some consideration. This is another way of dealing with his jealousy, but note that he doesn't want Kirino to know about it.

I'm not going to discuss the rest any further because you're using one person's un-vetted interpretation of the story as a reference for how the anime might have been better if it had been done differently. My argument is simply that the episode does in fact develop the anime's central plot in a significant way that appears to be largely overlooked by some.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Little difference because there were no available answers. Now they have they have to go through the trouble of setting up the answers all over again. How is this not a waste of time?

You're being rather literal. The whole episode was about developing the sub-theme of Kyousuke's jealousy of Kirino as (at least part of) the basis for his (previous) hatred of Kirino, using the anime writer as an illustration and Kuroneko's monologue as an enabler for that realization. That's insight into Kyousuke's character that we didn't have before except through insinuation. It's definitely not a waste of time in the slightest -- it's significant character development.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Hold up. He's hated her, sure. But you're insinuating that the one who made the gap between them was Kyyousuke himself. There's no evidence about that yet.

Who was the one who started this chian of resentment? Often jealously stays below the surface, and doesn't necessarily directly affect the relationship until it hits a breaking point. I find it hard to believe that Kyousuke would be such a resentful character, when he's been shown from the very beginning of this show to be anything but that (Unlike Kirino).

Jealousy isn't something that has a "breaking point". It's an insidious feeling that tends to tear people further and further apart without them really realizing it until all of a sudden you don't even speak to the other person anymore. Rather then there being some sort of single defining event, I think they just "grew apart"; Kirino's busyness and Kyousuke's jealousy caused them to basically stop talking to each other. At any point along the way I'm sure either of them could have taken the step and resolved the situation, but the more time passes the harder that becomes -- because taking the step sort of implies admitting that you were wrong. The whole situation presented in the anime's first episode provided them an opportunity to form a new relationship built around common good that allowed them to basically bypass the baggage they had in the past, but that baggage is still there and until they deal with it they'll never be able to move on.

From Kirino's perspective, Kyousuke's the one who's just been ignoring her and treating her like crap, so over time she learned to do the same. That much is certainly demonstrating resentment, and she continues to display that. From her perspective, I'm sure she doesn't believe she did anything to deserve it (and, in truth, she probably didn't). But the resentment on Kyousuke's end, caused by jealousy, would not be nearly as deliberate or pronounced, and would be killed immediately in episode 1 by discovering his sister's "great weakness". Her weakness became his strength. So now you have this awkward imbalance of Kyousuke appearing reasonable with Kirino appearing unreasonable, but that's only because of the starting point for the show. The amount of accumulated resentment on Kirino's end is only demonstrated through her treatment of Kyousuke and the odd comment here or there. That's why the revelation of Kyousuke's jealousy is important as a foundation for explaining how that came to be, and that jealousy is resurfacing now that she's turning even her "weakness" into a strength (through the success of her novel).

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

I'm sorry but you've missed her entirely. There is nothing wrong with Kirino's social skills.

Yes there's something wrong with her social skills.

When her father confronted her about her anime/eroge/manga collection, Kirino completely shut down. She was speechless and couldn't think of a single thing to say to him.

When she went to the female otaku meeting, she couldn't get a good conversation going with anybody, and these are people that she shares the same passionate hobby with. Saori had to basically force Kirino and Kuroneko to socialize with each other, and even then Kyousuke had to come along to make it work.

When Kirino's initial approach to Ayase wasn't working, she angrily turned to Kyousuke and basically demanded help from him.

When her suggestions to the anime staff where rejected, she took the rejections well, but she also totally gave up on her suggestions. There wasn't even an effort on her part of "Ok, maybe I asked for a bit too much, but can you at least meet the following few suggestions?", and then list them out. The girl clearly hasn't had to negotiate or haggle for anything in her life.

Kirino's friendships in school and at work are not due to any inherent social skill on her part; it's because her successful nature (and attractive appearance) draws admirers to her (as it did for Ayase). But when faced with anything a bit trickier than handling an admiring friend, Kirino doesn't know how to handle it. This has been shown time and time again.

[Master Chibi]

Wait, so this is more so about the reasons that he's helping her and the acknowledgement that he hates his sister? Did we not get lead up to this point about how he hates what how she acts before he found she was an otaku?

Ugh, the more I think about it the more I just abhor her.

[Daisu]

I really like the episode since it covers something that bothered me, animes not following the manga/LN. Though I do not follow this anime LN but I can get the jest that it also the result of a bit irony.

Anywho I like any scenes with Kuroneko