Character Discussion - Shirley

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

If Shirley was Japanese she'd have a fundamentally different life. Even if one is to assume personality is somewhat an inherited trait, she'd probably be Girl!Suzaku.

Girl Suzaku? LOL, you really think so? Well, if it means she gets to kick ass then by all means

But yeah, for consistancy's sake I'd say everything about Shirley would remain the same except that she would be Japanese.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Girl Suzaku? LOL, you really think so? Well, if it means she gets to kick ass then by all means

But yeah, for consistancy's sake I'd say everything about Shirley would remain the same except that she would be Japanese.

Belief-wise, not necessarily in other attributes.

I can't say Shirley would be exactly the same. She was raised in Britannia, and aside from being accepting of other cultures, doesn't show much of a problem with the "crush the Numbers under their boot" thing (neither does the rest of the Student Council that aren't revolutionaries or soldiers for that matter, but one might chalk this up to lack of screen time).

[bladeofdarkness]

sheirly lived a sheltered life with little to no pain or suffering, and so she became the cheerful, swimsuit wearing, lulu chasing girl we all know and love
her biggest concern in life (at least, at the start of the show) is "what do i do to get lulu to notice me"

had she been raised in post war japan under the conditions that the japanese people did (like suzaku and kallen did) i'd expect her to be considerably less cheerful, and considerably more jaded
which seems to be the standard

i'd expect she would support zero, but only because of the hope he represents, not so much because of any personal feelings

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Belief-wise, not necessarily in other attributes.

I can't say Shirley would be exactly the same. She was raised in Britannia, and aside from being accepting of other cultures, doesn't show much of a problem with the "crush the Numbers under their boot" thing (neither does the rest of the Student Council that aren't revolutionaries or soldiers for that matter, but one might chalk this up to lack of screen time).

That is one thing that always bugged me about their presentation of Shirley and the Student Council. They seem to be good natured people and very accepting of all people, regardless of ethnicity, for the most part. I think the thing about Shirley and the SC though is that, while it's possible that they may not approve of the number system and the oppression of the Japanese people, they just aren't inclined to do anything about it. Take the war in Iraq for example. Many American citizens don't approve of it and think it was a horrible mistake for us to go in their, but most people don't really do anything about it. They don't even actively speak out and make their opinions known. I think it's pretty much the same case.

@blade: A very fair assessment. I guess it is hard to be cheerful when your county has been demolished and your people oppressed. Still, it's not impossible I guess. I guess it depends to what degree you think she's naturally cheerful and optimistic and how much of it is just influenced by the circumstances around her.

[synaesthetic]

Well, the writers were free and clear to write most of the student council in that way since Nina already filled in the "token racist" category among that little group...

She got better, though. One of the few things R2 got right.

Out of all the student council members other than Lelouch, Kallen and Suzaku, Shirley got the most screen time and focus, but I wish she had been more integral to the plot. Especially in R2; she seemed to exist (and cease to exist) there just to push Lulu further toward the Dark Side.

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

sheirly lived a sheltered life with little to no pain or suffering, and so she became the cheerful, swimsuit wearing, lulu chasing girl we all know and love
her biggest concern in life (at least, at the start of the show) is "what do i do to get lulu to notice me"

had she been raised in post war japan under the conditions that the japanese people did (like suzaku and kallen did) i'd expect her to be considerably less cheerful, and considerably more jaded
which seems to be the standard

i'd expect she would support zero, but only because of the hope he represents, not so much because of any personal feelings

I don't know about that. Suzaku and Kallen were jaded and cynical due to their personal lives (Suzaku's issues with guilt over his father and Kallen's internal family drama) rather than any general oppression from Britannia. Others like Ougi and the 3 Ikaruga operators were able to be friendly and cheerful enough despite being Japanese. Assuming Shirley still has no drama she could more or less have a similar personality.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

I don't know about that. Suzaku and Kallen were jaded and cynical due to their personal lives (Suzaku's issues with guilt over his father and Kallen's internal family drama) rather than any general oppression from Britannia. Others like Ougi and the 3 Ikaruga operators were able to be friendly and cheerful enough despite being Japanese. Assuming Shirley still has no drama she could more or less have a similar personality.

Yeah, I'd agree with that. No matter how bad things are I think it's possible to find joy in life. I don't think every Japanese citizen was downright miserable (but close to it).

Anyway, this whole subject ties in to another question I had in mind. We've talked often enough about the possibilites of "If Shirley had survived would she help Lelouch" and all that. A lot of people denounce that idea since she probably wouldn't be capable as a pilot and has no stake in the Japanese reclaiming their nation, but I don't think impossible. So here's the question, could Shirley possibly join up with the Black Knights?

Whether or not she'd be all that useful or not is irrelevant, but...well, I guess the question I'm really asking is would Shirley want to join the Black Knights? I mean, she could've still helped Lelouch out without becoming a member or being directly involved with them. C.C. didn't really have any stake in Japan's future and she more or less became a member (she certainly hanged out with them enough) But what about the personal aspect? Yes, Shirley would definitely want to help Lelouch because he's, you know, Lelouch. But do you think she could see the importance of the Black Knights' mission and sympathize with the Japenese's struggle?

[ginran]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Whether or not she'd be all that useful or not is irrelevant, but...well, I guess the question I'm really asking is would Shirley want to join the Black Knights? I mean, she could've still helped Lelouch out without becoming a member or being directly involved with them. C.C. didn't really have any stake in Japan's future and she more or less became a member (she certainly hanged out with them enough) But what about the personal aspect? Yes, Shirley would definitely want to help Lelouch because he's, you know, Lelouch. But do you think she could see the importance of the Black Knights' mission and sympathize with the Japenese's struggle?

In Code Geass, anything is possible. but, on a more serious note, yes, I think Shirley couldve found a place in the Black Knights. I could see her becoming something like...a bridge bunny type and of course, offering emotional support to, not only Lelouch, but the other crew as well. I can honestly see her being that, "ray of sunshine", with that cheerful optimism that she's known for. As for technical stuff, she could be taught how to use some of the computer related things, possibly the Knightmares...but I honestly don't think Lelouch would want her piloting a mech. Though it's possible she could learn the basics, just in case of emergencies.

[incorrupts]

I am not sure if Shirley could become a BK, or a valuable-something to them. I believe, she would be helping Lelouch emotionally with her Shirley-ish speeches, and probably would hang around the bridge and stuff, but that's it.
As if she could sympathize with Japanese-struggle, i am not really sure, if she could totally overlook the fact, that because of that struggle, innocent people die as well, her papa included. I would be more eager to say, that Lelouch's story with papa and missing sis, would touch her {as it did anyway, looking back Turn 13} and she would focus on that more.

[ginran]

Oh! Lol I forgot to answer the part about the Japanese struggle and Shirley's feelings...but I agree with Sky. I don't think she could overlook the lose of innocent lives(especially given what happened to her father). I could see it becoming a two sided thing, where Shirley wants to join both for Lelouch and for making sure her father's death wasn't in vain. Of course, since it's Shirley, she would feel badly for the Japanese, but I don't think that would be her main motivation.

[Nobodyman9]

Good arguments. You make a very good point sky about how, even if Shirley may sympathize with Japan's oppression, it may be hard for her to overlook the loss innocent lives. But then again, it depends how much she blames it on Lelouch and how much she blames it on the Black Knights. From what we've seen she mainly blames her father's death on Lelouch/Zero, but she forgives him. So if she could make peace with Lelouch I think she could make peace with the Black Knights since they're only his followers.

As far as her being concerned for the Japanese, I still think Lelouch would be her primary motivation I would have to have seen a little subplot or something where she comes to understand the strife of the Japanese. Perhaps a little exchange with Kallen where she explains what she's lost (her brother, etc.) as a result of the Britannian occupation. For that matter, it would also be interesting (I always thought it would be interesting) to see Kallen confessing that she was the one that caused the landslide.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Good arguments. You make a very good point sky about how, even if Shirley may sympathize with Japan's oppression, it may be hard for her to overlook the loss innocent lives. But then again, it depends how much she blames it on Lelouch and how much she blames it on the Black Knights. From what we've seen she mainly blames her father's death on Lelouch/Zero, but she forgives him. So if she could make peace with Lelouch I think she could make peace with the Black Knights since they're only his followers.

As far as her being concerned for the Japanese, I still think Lelouch would be her primary motivation I would have to have seen a little subplot or something where she comes to understand the strife of the Japanese. Perhaps a little exchange with Kallen where she explains what she's lost (her brother, etc.) as a result of the Britannian occupation. For that matter, it would also be interesting (I always thought it would be interesting) to see Kallen confessing that she was the one that caused the landslide.

I did not say, that Shirley would hunt down the BK with Michael's from Friday 13th butcher-knife, but she would not be exactly "hooray guys, let us embark on the next mission!!1" with them. It would probably be a situation, somewhere in the middle. I cannot really use Lelouch, as a comparison-meter, because Lelouch for Shirley is like God. She can overlook certain things she might not have done for anyone else, exactly because it is him.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

I did not say, that Shirley would hunt down the BK with Michael's from Friday 13th butcher-knife

Neither did I

but she would not be exactly "hooray guys, let us embark on the next mission!!1" with them. It would probably be a situation, somewhere in the middle. I cannot really use Lelouch, as a comparison-meter, because Lelouch for Shirley is like God. She can overlook certain things she might not have done for anyone else, exactly because it is him.

Yeah, I think I can pretty much agree with that. Still, she is a naturally kind and caring person and is often more compassionate and understanding than most. Heck, part of her whole theme was forgiveness, so it would be kind of hypocritical of her to give the BKs the cold shoulder without even trying to understand them. I imagine she would at least get along with Kallen fairly well. Some others like Ougi, or Diethard, or Tohdoh she may have some troubles with.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Neither did I


Yeah, I think I can pretty much agree with that. Still, she is a naturally kind and caring person and is often more compassionate and understanding than most. Heck, part of her whole theme was forgiveness, so it would be kind of hypocritical of her to give the BKs the cold shoulder without even trying to understand them. I imagine she would at least get along with Kallen fairly well. Some others like Ougi, or Diethard, or Tohdoh she may have some troubles with.

You cannot be really forgiving when it comes to the killing of your own father, no matter what the circumstances were.
She is a kind and a noble person, but up to a point. Lelouch was the only one, she was willing to strach the even-"super-kind"-limits for.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

You cannot be really forgiving when it comes to the killing of your own father, no matter what the circumstances were.
She is a kind and a noble person, but up to a point. Lelouch was the only one, she was willing to strach the even-"super-kind"-limits for.

Oh really? How can you be so sure? We never really got her insight into the Black Knights and how she felt about the rest of them. So with that we pretty much just have to take her character into account. I think given time she could grow to forgive/understand them. And besides, as I said before, Lelouch is the mastermind behind it all. If she can forgive him than I think she can forgive his followers who were only obeying his orders.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Oh really? How can you be so sure? We never really got her insight into the Black Knights and how she felt about the rest of them. So with that we pretty much just have to take her character into account. I think given time she could grow to forgive/understand them. And besides, as I said before, Lelouch is the mastermind behind it all. If she can forgive him than I think she can forgive his followers who were only obeying his orders.

Because my father was killed in a terrorist attack and i happened to have the hots for their leader. 8D
Lol, i never said i was "sure!!111" i just expressed my opinion. It is an "if" into an "if" anyway. I could just see Shirley, being more hung up to Lulu and his close surrounding, seeing as this would be a totally non-natural field for her.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Because my father was killed in a terrorist attack and i happened to have the hots for their leader. 8D
Lol, i never said i was "sure!!111" i just expressed my opinion. It is an "if" into an "if" anyway. I could just see Shirley, being more hung up to Lulu and his close surrounding, seeing as this would be a totally non-natural field for her.

LOL, all right yeah, forget the "sure" thing. Well, the way you say it now I can agree with you more. I think she would stick very close to Lelouch and possibly Kallen. You know, people she knows, until she gets the hang of things. But yes, the whole Black Knights fighting for Japan thing is very foreign to her. Maybe at the start she could just sort of help Lelouch and other BKs from time to time and then maybe once she got to understand them more and if she felt inclined to help them with their struggle than she could become a full-fledged member.

[TiaxZatch]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Whether or not she'd be all that useful or not is irrelevant, but...well, I guess the question I'm really asking is would Shirley want to join the Black Knights?

I'd think so. After all it is Lelouch leading them. But she also says in her final moments that she acknowledges the fight Lelouch wages on against Britannia. I'm thinking it has to do with Geass and how it completely changed her life by rearranging her memories and I'm getting from her last episode that she was willing to fight with Lelouch because of all of that happening. Know that makes me want to go watch that episode to understand it fully again. Oh well.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by TiaxZatch

I'd think so. After all it is Lelouch leading them. But she also says in her final moments that she acknowledges the fight Lelouch wages on against Britannia. I'm thinking it has to do with Geass and how it completely changed her life by rearranging her memories and I'm getting from her last episode that she was willing to fight with Lelouch because of all of that happening. Know that makes me want to go watch that episode to understand it fully again. Oh well.

Good point. Still, this is more about Shirley and her sympathizing with the Black Knights and their struggle and the suffering of Japan. But a good assessment nonetheless. BTW, what do you mean "Oh well"? You could watch the fansub if you want. Actually, I think Bandai may have fully uploaded CG episodes on their Youtube account as well. Just sayin'.

[TiaxZatch]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Good point. Still, this is more about Shirley and her sympathizing with the Black Knights and their struggle and the suffering of Japan. But a good assessment nonetheless. BTW, what do you mean "Oh well"? You could watch the fansub if you want. Actually, I think Bandai may have fully uploaded CG episodes on their Youtube account as well. Just sayin'.

I meant that I don't want to watch her death episode again lol. Too sad for me =/