2012-09-12, 22:11 | Link #101 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Hm, I don't know, it doesn't seem like he had a reason to lie to Konan. Konan knowing the truth wouldn't prevent him from his goal at that point, and he was going for the kill anyway. Also, I don't think there are any solid, confirmed connections between the Uzumaki clan and the Rinnegan, especially since its now linked to the sharingan. Tobi was seen with a lab full of sharingan, and obviously has access to the 1st hokage's dna. Madara also knows Nagato by name and its apparent now that there was an established plan for Nagato to resurrect him, so Nagato gaining the rinnegan 100% on his own seems unlikely.
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2012-09-12, 22:26 | Link #104 | |
Bubbly and super fun
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Doesn't look like Kansas
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He kept the charade even after he gutted her like a fish, he kept acting as Madara in front of Kabuto even after Kabuto had summoned the real Madara. Hell he did it even when talking in private with Zetsu. Kishimoto wanted his readers to believe Tobi was Madara but in doing so he went too far and filled his work with plotholes. No he was impersonating him, that's called lying. |
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2012-09-12, 22:33 | Link #105 | |
Fallen Angel
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Up until the summoning of Madara, it's fairly plausible that Tobi was the only one who knew the real Madara's body was somewhere else. And telling everyone that is a good idea, especially in Ninja Land where you never know who's listening/over-hearing. My uncle is a cop and he said when someone is undercover, they ALWAYS act like they're the undercover identity, even when they're alone. Because you NEVER know who's watching. I'd say Obito always referring to himself as Madara isn't a plot hole at all. It's darn good writing is what it is. |
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2012-09-12, 23:28 | Link #106 |
Bubbly and super fun
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Doesn't look like Kansas
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To people he had no need nor reason to lie to, to people who knew for a fact he wasn't who he claimed to be and to Zetsu who is in it and who talked to him without his mask? Yes that's what it is and no that's not good writing at all.
Good writing -among other things because this is a huge mess- would have been to build sentences that still made sense in insight instead of resorting to "it's amazing how the author made him act to the 4th walls"! |
2012-09-13, 01:56 | Link #107 |
Giga Drill Breaker
Join Date: Jan 2009
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i hope we get to see a backstory of how Uchiha Madara and Senju Harashima fought, i know its already implied that Madara got some flesh of Harashima and experimented with his cells/DNA and also its already been speculated that Madara may have use the perfect Izanagi to create Zetsu out of Harashima's cells/DNA too... but i wanna know the details of how he done it
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2012-09-13, 03:25 | Link #108 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
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that said, kishi is clearly not perfect, just reference A's suddenly grown back arm or edo-madara's un/cracked face to prove that the manga is not flawless. it may very well be a combination of intended lies and random mistakes. we won't ever know probably. we'll have a better idea when more is revealed but so far, i'm pretty content with the way things are shaping up. and i'm really excited to see where this flashback goes |
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2012-09-13, 03:35 | Link #109 | |
Fallen Angel
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1) Obito doesn't respond to Obito as his name. Meaning: He has abandoned that identity and no longer associates himself as Obito. So him not referring to himself as Obito in the past is NOT a plot hole. His exact words, "You can call me by that name if you want. To me it means nothing." 2) It does make sense. Because from the point his interactions ended with Madara, he no longer calls himself Obito. So all the sentences written in the past make perfect sense. If you woke up one day and decided that you would no longer be Hunter but instead, Ranger. You HATE Hunter because of some characteristic about him you didn't like, or maybe you believe after spending months turning into Ranger that it's your real name. Or maybe you don't believe in names at all and you just used Ranger as a nickname to hide your identity or give people something to call you. Would it make sense for your partners who you trust, to call you by two different names? Oh hey guys, we're in the secret private room so call me OBITO, even though I don't believe I'm Obito anymore and I don't care about that name! Hehehehehehehehehehehe we're so secret! Obito clearly gave up his ties to the Leaf Village and the name Obito during his encounters with Madara. From that point forward, he's not Obito anymore. And it makes PERFECT sense his closest allies don't call him Obito. Why would they, when they KNOW he gave that name up? "Hey Obito... Should we get the Nine Tails now?" "Why are you calling me that? I'm not Obito anymore." "Because it's a huge plot hole. We're in the secret private room so I should call you Obito to show the audience I know your real identity." "But I'm not Obito anymore..." |
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2012-09-13, 03:59 | Link #110 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Dark Side of The Moon
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Clearly obito is crazy. I mean, remember back when he first made himself known to akatsuki, and he was all goofy and funny... And obito-like?
The whole deidara-sempai gag, Honestly I wonder how kishi plans to explain the purpose of that Alsoo, if this plan was in motion for so long.. And tobi basically has the ability to escape almost all damage, anddd enough sharingan to spam izanagi... LOL really why wasn't the plan 'fuck giving nagato the rinnegan. Put it in my eye like I have now. Use my bijuu chains of death, teleport to every jinchuuriki when they're asleep Chain them up, activate izanagi, teleport them to my dimension, Run like hell Repeat until you have a jyuubi' The only real purpose of the akatsuki was to remove the bijuuu from its host in the sealing ceremony, with all the years that they've been planning this, tobi could have easily captured majority of not all of the jinchuuriki, especially during the times they bwere just implanted into the host so they had little control over the beast's powers' But yea no one would read that
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2012-09-13, 04:14 | Link #111 | |
Fallen Angel
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In fact, I'm willing to bet Tobi had the same thoughts as you back when he attacked the Leaf Village the first time. All it took was one Rasengan from Minato and he learned, "Crap! I'm not as powerful as I thought!" lol The same could be said for Orochimaru. Why go after Sasuke? Why not just possess a weaker Uchiha before they were slaughtered? Why not lead Sasuke to Itachi and wait for him to be weak from fighting Itachi before trying to possess him? It's all about risk. His body was already very delicate. No reason to risk it when you're limited to using one jutsu (likely the result of him losing half his body, he might not have the chakra flow of a normal shinobi). |
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2012-09-13, 04:30 | Link #112 | |
Ninja Emperor
Join Date: Oct 2004
Age: 38
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Somehow Madara must have survived the battle with the first Hokage and lived to old age, long enough to meet Obito after he was crushed by that boulder. Afterwards he probably died of old age but not before passing on some knowledge to Obito in order for him to fulfill the Infinite Tsukiyomi plan and revive him with Rinne Tensei no jutsu. Tsunade is 50 when she was introduced to the manga and would have been about 35 when Obito was injured on the battlefield. The 1st Hokage is her Grandfather so Madara must have been around 90 years old when he encountered Obito. Kabuto uses the DNA of the person he is summoning in order to bind their soul to his host and create his Edo Tensei zombies. He did mention to Obito that since he has their DNA he can make perfect replicas of them. Any injuries they had in life like say an missing eye or arm or bad leg would be present and in perfect condition since injuries are not a genetic trait. I'm assuming that the caster of Edo Tensei can make his zombies any age he wants so Madara could have died a very old man and been reanimated as his young self with all of the abilities that are apart of his genetic makeup including the powers of the 1st Hokage that he somehow absorbed during their battle.
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2012-09-13, 04:32 | Link #113 |
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 39
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First of all, if "he has no reason to lie", does he have a reason to tell the truth? Spilling all your guts to a character "just because they are about to die" isn't really received well among those who've read the Overlord's List.
Second, it's actually possible for Obito to be the one who gave the Rinnegan to Nagato. I mean, obviously Madara KNEW Nagato and had all these plans for him. But maybe the plan was to die first, and then have Obito give the Rinnegan to Nagato. This is also assuming that they are, in fact, Madara's eyes. I'm not saying the following is true, but it could be that Obito/Madara messed a bit with Nagato's genes to make him awaken to the Rinnegan naturally. It seems to be a thing that happens when Senju and Uchiha blood are combined. Nagato, being of the Uzumaki clan, already had Senju blood, so maybe they just introduced Uchiha DNA to his system? I dunno it's mere speculation, but it seems to work. This is, of course, ignoring the possibility that Obito was literally "being Madara" and speaking as though he were him. He may "not have any reason to do that", but did he have a reason NOT to do that? |
2012-09-13, 04:55 | Link #114 | ||
Ninja Emperor
Join Date: Oct 2004
Age: 38
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That is why he commented on Itachi not knowing all the secrets about his body when Itachi's Amaterasu embedded in Sasuke was activated to destroy Tobi. Remember also that his arm fell off during the battle with Minato. In Naruto you have people constantly being brought back from the dead by supernatural means. Madara was believed to have died in his battle with Hashirama. Some how he survived and lived to old age and some how he took a ninja child and enabled him to live in to adulthood. I'm guessing this jutsu involves the 1st Hokage's cells and some forebidden technique that defies the laws of nature allowing the dead to retain their bodies and consciousness under certain conditions. Quote:
use his reputation to bait the Ninja villages in to organizing a war against him. Obito was some goofy Konoha genin who was believed to have died on the battlefield as a kid. Madara was the former leader of the Uchiha who was legendary during his time and challenged the 1st Hokage for his title as leader of Konoha. Obito concealed his face to hide the fact that he was not Madara. Madara's face is known to all as he was famous and his likeness was chiseled in to a statue at the Valley of the End. Infinite Tsukiyomi seems to be Madara's plan so Obito was only crediting the true mastermind by taking on his identity. Once he was revived Madara probably would have taken charge from there.
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Last edited by MysticNinjaJay; 2012-09-13 at 10:02. |
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2012-09-13, 10:25 | Link #115 |
Ninja Emperor
Join Date: Oct 2004
Age: 38
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I just had a wild thought....
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What if Obito can SEE through Kakashi's eye?! It is his eye after all. That would explain how he knows about Rin's death. He didn't hear about it from a second hand source and he wasn't there but he SAW it. How does Obito know about Kakashi visiting his grave site? He's not in Konoha to witness it. I doubt he has Akatsuki spies watching his every move but if he can see through his eye he could spy on anything Kakashi witnesses. Now Kakashi only takes out his eye for battle so I don't know how Kishimoto would explain that one but it's not too farfetched that a ninja who has mastered Space-Time jutsu could possibly gain function of his lost eye implanted in someone elses body. Ninja have done even freakier things. If this theory turns out to be true it could even explain how Obito gained knowledge of the secret location where Naruto was being born. Perhaps Kakashi was one of the only people entrusted with the location by Minato and Obito used this knowledge to his advantage.
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2012-09-13, 11:01 | Link #116 | ||
Bubbly and super fun
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Doesn't look like Kansas
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The fact that Obito no longer care about his former self -and the world in general for that matter- has no bearing on that. What is the point to say to Zetsu that Rine Tensei should have been used for him when they both know he is not Madara? To say to Kabuto he took Hashirama's celsl during their battle when, again, they both know he is not Madara? To say the same to a dying Konan? To shout at Kushina's dying face that she has no idea how long he has waited for this? Remember when the Kyubi saw him and said "You...!" that's how it must be done : when you read this as face value it's the Kyubi recognizing Madara, in insight it could be the Kyubi recognizing Obito as Minato's student whom he had probably seen through Kushina's eyes. But even this one is inconsistant because with Kyubi and Naruto being instant best buddies why didn't the Kyubi said anything when they were all wondering his identity? Did he somehow forget the guy who set him on Konoha? Those are inconsistencies made only for the benefit of the readers to keep us off balance but in insight they just make no sense whatsoever. Remember when Deva Path gave orders to the others Path just before his assault on Konoha? Same thing : the readers weren't yet told that those were just all puppets under a single mind and the author tried to make us keep guessing even if in insight the scene is absurd. The difference is that it's one panel whereas there are scores of examples like this over the last 481 chapters for Tobito. Quote:
You're focusing on the "fact" that people who knew still called him Madara when by and large it's not even true (Zetsu called him Tobi and Madara calls him Obito which doesn't seem to bother him) but it's not the point at all anyway. It's not a matter of which name he answers to, it's a matter of which past(s) he thinks he has and unless Obito is insane (as in completely dissociativly psychotic) a large part of what he said is nonsensical. |
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2012-09-13, 11:13 | Link #118 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2012
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2012-09-13, 12:35 | Link #120 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
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Whatever the case, by jumping through hoops in order to hide Tobi's identity (and then making the identity the first character everyone suspected he would be), Kishimoto really created a lackluster twist filled with glaring plot holes and missteps. As with much of Kishimoto's work, the intent is clear and even interesting, but the execution ultimately fails (or is kept at a level only a 12 year old could really appreciate). Quote:
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