Madoka Magica - Episode 05 Discussion / Poll

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

What? You make it sound like there can only be one selfish person between them. The point is, there are ways around that fight. Sayaka didn't make an effort to get past Kyoko any way possible and instead intended to fight her to win all the way through. Sayaka didn't see Kyoko just as an obstacle to getting to the familiar but as an enemy who opposes her ideals. There IS a difference. Sayaka is not prepared to protect everyone.

You haven't watched or read enough literatures. When someone is deadset on blocking other's path, there really is no way around it. If they try to get through and run, exposing your back on the blocker is a death sentence. Suppose Sayaka managed to run past Kyoko and catched up on the familiar, what's stopping Kyoko to stab her in the back when Sayaka's busy fighting the familiar?

And you know what? I'd be surprised if any morally-good people didn't get pissed off at Kyoko. Look at what happened to Uncle Ben when Peter didn't catch the thief.

[Honoakari]

Originally Posted by Mentar

As a little side-note: The instrument playing the "Ave Maria" during Kamijo's performance was definitely the deepest violin I've ever heard ^_^

I'd rather think it was a viola.

I think it was a violin. The song gets a "deep" feeling because Kamijou is playing mostly on the lower strings. Also, the song doesn't go beyond the lowest note a violin can play.

[fukarming]

Everyone keeps thinking how Kyubei screw around Sayaka's wish (Kamijo's arm is healed by he cannot play the violin....etc). Had anyone thought of that Kyubei's wish is actually fair? Kamijo will recover fully in no time. But then Kamijo will likely say goodbye to Sayaka in the fashion of "I am going to Germany for a tour. Here is a ticket. Come see me play if you have time" and then Kamijo left Sayaka's life which Sayaka will be unhappy and things will happen.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by fukarming

Everyone keeps thinking how Kyubei screw around Sayaka's wish (Kamijo's arm is healed by he cannot play the violin....etc). Had anyone thought of that Kyubei's wish is actually fair? Kamijo will recover fully in no time. But then Kamijo will likely say goodbye to Sayaka in the fashion of "I am going to Germany for a tour. Here is a ticket. Come see me play if you have time" and then Kamijo left Sayaka's life which Sayaka will be unhappy and things will happen.

Course not, you silly person. Their obviously must be a catch! There has to be! Because if there wasn't, then that would force us to completely reevaluate our stated beliefs thus far, and we can't have that! Yes, I know there has been no downsides to wishes shown so far, but I just know there has to be!

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

And you know what? I'd be surprised if any morally-good people didn't get pissed off at Kyoko. Look at what happened to Uncle Ben when Peter didn't catch the thief.

Haven't you ever read in phlosophies that morality is emergant and subjective? It is naive to assume that what you consider as morally-good coincides with anyone else's, it can, but that does neither make true or correct. Kyouko is just cynically practical, and frankly more down to earth than self-proclaimed champions of justice.

[fukarming]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Course not, you silly person. Their obviously must be a catch! There has to be! Because if there wasn't, then that would force us to completely reevaluate our stated beliefs thus far, and we can't have that! Yes, I know there has been no downsides to wishes shown so far, but I just know there has to be!

I just don't understand why everyone is piling on Kyubei when the wish go wrong (It didn't technically go wrong, see my Mami example) instead of the MG - you should have make a more specific wish. So far we know about the wishes of two MG, Mami and Sayaka. Let's analyse Mami's case:

Mami is in about to die, she wish to live, Kyubei grant it to her. She lives.

Mami, however, lives an unhappy life, both because of losing her family, and because the MG job make her feel lonely. Why couldn't Mami, when making her wish, states that I want to be alive and happy! (Will that count as two wishes? ) How about rewording it as I want to live a happy life until 100 years old. This wish implied living and happy, and it sounds like one wish

I know I know, I am just teasing here. Mami is 5 sec to death and she probably didn't think too deeply.

But Kyubei is shown giving time to MG to think about their wishes (Sayaka and Madoka). They should have come up with a perfectly worded wish instead of blaming the wish granter when things went wrong. Kinda like people who blame they win the lottery and brought them misfortune. The lottery (Kyubei) is not at fault, the winner (MG) are if they get into trouble afterwards. (poor finance management/ poorly worded wish)

[J the Drafter]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

Haven't you ever read in phlosophies that morality is emergant and subjective? It is naive to assume that what you consider as morally-good coincides with anyone else's, it can, but that does neither make true or correct. Kyouko is just cynically practical, and frankly more down to earth than self-proclaimed champions of justice.

I'd feel much safer with Sayaka as my neighbor than Kyoko, especially if I had something valuable in my house.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by J the Drafter

I'd feel much safer with Sayaka as my neighbor than Kyoko, especially if I had something valuable in my house.

Yeah, I agree with that.

I don't think I'd characterize Kyoko as evil. Her position, at least so far, is intellectually defensible. It does make some pragmatic sense. But it is a very cold position, and perhaps a heartless one.

So, on the whole, I much prefer Sayaka's position, even if it is a little bit naive.

I'd rather have people that are a bit naive but very well-intentioned, then people that are very "with it" but only care about themselves.

[EroKing]

Homura being from the future seems very much possible and her concern towards Madoka, trying to kill Kyubey before he got to her in the 1st episode might also indicate that she is related to Madoka in some way like her daughter or granddaughter

[octoberasian]

After seeing episode 5 again for the umpteenth-time, it kind of hit me:

Spoiler:

... Now, I haven't been reading the forum posts as of late due to being busy with work so I'm not sure if this was ever suggested.

So here it goes.

The logic goes like this-- if what you wish becomes your unique power, then Mami isn't dead.

Think about it.

Sayaka wished for the power of healing to help her pseudo-boyfriend get healed completely. In return, Sayaka has an innate ability to heal herself of any injury inflicted upon her.

Now, take Mami. She was at Death's door in the mangled mess of her car. Her parents are dead. Kyuubei out of mere coincidence (?) appears in front of her and propositions her to make a wish to live and not die in the car crash. In exchange, she is contracted to Kyuubei for eternity to be a mahou shoujo.

It may be a loophole where Kyuubei mentioned that you cannot wish the dead to come back alive. If you can't wish others back to life, how about yourself? What if Mami's innate ability allows her to resurrect herself? Mmm, sort of like an auto-Reraise spell.

She made the wish to live and so if that's true, in theory her innate power has to be the ability to avoid death.

Up until now, we still have not seen her unique innate ability. Only the most obvious being Sayaka's auto-Regen (more or less). Each mahou shoujo specializes in one weapon-- Homura are either bows or mines if going by episode 3; Sayaka are swords; and Mami are guns. But, they aren't their unique abilities that define them who they are as a mahou shoujo and separate themselves from every other magical girl.

How about Homura then?

If that's the case, my best bet is that Homura seems to be foresight or precognition. Case in point-- of the two or three times that Kyuubei seemingly forces his hand upon Madoka to make a wish to become a magical girl, Homura is there at the precise moment before she even makes the wish. Could her wish be that she wanted to see the future? This goes back to the whole "time loop" theory I saw several times popped up here in these Madoka threads. Homura knows what will happen, and my guess is that the beginning of episode one is the one and last time that she'll probably be unable to stop Madoka from suffering the same fate as other magical girls that have died. Homura already has seen countless number of girls die doing this, and has made every effort she can to stop others from making the same... mistake.

This then comes up with another question: Why Madoka? Why is her attention solely focused on Madoka?

Depending on the fansub group who's subbing episode 5, she even apologizes for not paying attention on Sayaka telling me she has the majority of her attention devoted to Madoka.

I know it sounds crazy but it just hit me when I saw episode 5 again. Episode 3 is definitely not the last time we will see Mami again if my theory proves true if going by the contract-wish system in this anime so far.

[Cream]

Originally Posted by octoberasian

After seeing episode 5 again for the umpteenth-time, it kind of hit me:

Spoiler:

... Now, I haven't been reading the forum posts as of late due to being busy with work so I'm not sure if this was ever suggested.

So here it goes.

The logic goes like this-- if what you wish becomes your unique power, then Mami isn't dead.

Think about it.

Sayaka wished for the power of healing to help her pseudo-boyfriend get healed completely. In return, Sayaka has an innate ability to heal herself of any injury inflicted upon her.

Now, take Mami. She was at Death's door in the mangled mess of her car. Her parents are dead. Kyuubei out of mere coincidence (?) appears in front of her and propositions her to make a wish to live and not die in the car crash. In exchange, she is contracted to Kyuubei for eternity to be a mahou shoujo.

It may be a loophole where Kyuubei mentioned that you cannot wish the dead to come back alive. If you can't wish others back to life, how about yourself? What if Mami's innate ability allows her to resurrect herself? Mmm, sort of like an auto-Reraise spell.

She made the wish to live and so if that's true, in theory her innate power has to be the ability to avoid death.

Up until now, we still have not seen her unique innate ability. Only the most obvious being Sayaka's auto-Regen (more or less). Each mahou shoujo specializes in one weapon-- Homura are either bows or mines if going by episode 3; Sayaka are swords; and Mami are guns. But, they aren't their unique abilities that define them who they are as a mahou shoujo and separate themselves from every other magical girl.

How about Homura then?

If that's the case, my best bet is that Homura seems to be foresight or precognition. Case in point-- of the two or three times that Kyuubei seemingly forces his hand upon Madoka to make a wish to become a magical girl, Homura is there at the precise moment before she even makes the wish. Could her wish be that she wanted to see the future? This goes back to the whole "time loop" theory I saw several times popped up here in these Madoka threads. Homura knows what will happen, and my guess is that the beginning of episode one is the one and last time that she'll probably be unable to stop Madoka from suffering the same fate as other magical girls that have died. Homura already has seen countless number of girls die doing this, and has made every effort she can to stop others from making the same... mistake.

This then comes up with another question: Why Madoka? Why is her attention solely focused on Madoka?

Depending on the fansub group who's subbing episode 5, she even apologizes for not paying attention on Sayaka telling me she has the majority of her attention devoted to Madoka.

I know it sounds crazy but it just hit me when I saw episode 5 again. Episode 3 is definitely not the last time we will see Mami again if my theory proves true if going by the contract-wish system in this anime so far.

Very valid point. Of course, its pretty obvious we will see Mami again. They wouldn't just throw away such a perfect character like that , and it was so early in the series .

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

can't wait for next ep!!! XDD

Mawwrr hints to watch out! XD

[KaneDragon]

Originally Posted by Cream

Very valid point. Of course, its pretty obvious we will see Mami again. They wouldn't just throw away such a perfect character like that , and it was so early in the series .

She lives on, in the opening.

Such a stylish power, too... Withstood loneliness to create many guns, yet, those hands will never hold anything.

[applejuice]

Originally Posted by Cream

Very valid point. Of course, its pretty obvious we will see Mami again. They wouldn't just throw away such a perfect character like that , and it was so early in the series .

That's in your dream.

Knowing Urobuchi, (as I always say) it's better for Mami to stay death or she will be granted even disgusting hell.

[scr]

It seems that there is another hidden clause in the wish: you can't do any action that contradicts (either the spirit or the letter of) your wish. If you wish for a crippled someone to get better, you can't do action that harm him or her even if he or she is an asshole. Which is why Mami warned Sayaka against wishing for others. You can't control other people, at least not entirely. Similarly, Mami wished to live, live, and live. This is why she can't be melancholic, ever, even if catharsis would have been for the better of her psyche.

As for Homerun, it seems that in the previous world she wished for Madoka to be spared of the fate of a magical girl. So anything that bare even the smallest hint of the existence of magical girls to Madoka, _Homura_ can't do. Note that this applies to Homura and Homura only, nothing prevents Kyubey from offering the exaltation to Madoka or Mami to explain the things about MGs, partially or entirely, to Madoka. Of course, by the rule, Kyubey can't suggest what Madoka should wish for, but he definitely can arrange for situation where a wish would be appropriate. And boy, sure he has a lot of cards up his furry sleeves. Since Madoka is potentially much more powerful than other MGs, he doesn't care if Sayaka or Kyouko is going to be killed in his scheme. They are his pawns.

On Homura's side, she had the chance to kill Kyubey (and probably Mami too) _before_ the creepy critter get the chance to meet Madoka in person. But she failed at that. Now she can't kill Kyubey without antagonizing Madoka (and Sayaka), for the little devil presented itself as an ally to them. On the other hand, now that Kyubey and Mami divulged the information about MGs, nothing prevent Homura from _expanding_ the existing information to Madoka, as long as she doesn't drop a new basic information. she hopes that Madoka will be mentally scarred enough to never consider becoming an MG.

Crapola, now i imagine Homura applying flute to Madoka's- *is nearly banned for divulging information about KnM*

[TheDarkness]

Originally Posted by applejuice

That's in your dream.

Knowing Urobuchi, (as I always say) it's better for Mami to stay death or she will be granted even disgusting hell.

I personally think that we will see Mami again. She is still in the opening theme and in the official artwork. I doubt she would just be thrown out after 3 episodes. In my opinion, I believe that Madoka is going to become an MG so that she can wish for Mami to return.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by TheDarkness

I personally think that we will see Mami again. She is still in the opening theme and in the official artwork. I doubt she would just be thrown out after 3 episodes. In my opinion, I believe that Madoka is going to become an MG so that she can wish for Mami to return.

Mami wouldn't be the first major character to die early on in a major anime's run. In fact, she wouldn't even be the most famous to do so. That would probably be this guy (warning: don't click on that unless you're prepared to be spoiled on a major plot event in a prominent mecha anime from a few years back).

That guy never came back. Well, not in a clear-cut "it's not a dream" way, anyway...

Here's a key, though - Madoka Magica might get a new, or slightly altered, OP for Episodes 7 on (I'm just saying this based on precedent throughout anime as a whole). If that happens, look for Mami in it. If she's not there, she's almost certainly not coming back. If she is there, then I'm with you, lol.

[Myssa Rei]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

*snips*

While I'm one of those who want Mami to come back as well, Gen Urobuchi has gone on to mention relatively recently on his Twitter that, had Madoka been greenlit 26 episodes instead of the 12 it had now, we WOULD be seeing Mami again... Or lookalikes anyway, to mess with Madoka's mind (he mentioned a waitress at a cafe, or a lifeguard at the beach as examples). So, don't trust the current OP.

As for this episode, I've already said my thoughts about it elsewhere. I'm looking forward to the one after this more, if only so we could see how Homura diffuses the situation between Kyoko and Sakuya.

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

While I'm one of those who want Mami to come back as well, Gen Urobuchi has gone on to mention relatively recently on his Twitter that, had Madoka been greenlit 26 episodes instead of the 12 it had now

Wait... did Urobuchi intend for Madoka to be 26 episodes, but it was for some reason cut down to 12? That's not too far from what happened with Angel Beats, except I think we're losing more here since I'm enjoying Madoka far more than I did Angel Beats (Though that show ruled also).

[Myssa Rei]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

Wait... did Urobuchi intend for Madoka to be 26 episodes, but it was for some reason cut down to 12? That's not too far from what happened with Angel Beats, except I think we're losing more here since I'm enjoying Madoka far more than I did Angel Beats (Though that show ruled also).

Not really. He replied to a tweet asking whether Mami would come back, and his reply started with 'If we had more episodes...' which I THINK alludes to the old-style 26-episode runs. So, no, 13 episodes was all that's ever been greenlit for Madoka, instead of being cut down from a longer episode run.