[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Battler wouldn't say he was "progressing the game" in other words unpausing it after that if he was just editing past scenes.

No, this is not what that line means. It may have been the effect afterwards, but all it says directly is "make your next move".

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Battler wouldn't say he was "progressing the game" in other words unpausing it after that if he was just editing past scenes.

Yeah, progressing. Erika 'paused' it to ask for some confirmations in red. While that happened, no time passed in the Game Board. This have been happening since Ep2, the game aways pauses when the Detective is talking with the Game Master. The GM may or may not skip the time a bit after it, but it wasn't what happened.

Originally Posted by Judoh

And really how does that work in human terms? It happened instantly? I still see a timing issue.

She placed it before even entering the room. Heck, she may have sealed it at any point she wanted. For a more specific point, I believe she would have placed the seals in the windows after the adults agreeing with the split in two rooms and before she they actually all went there. The game is vague about what happened in the between, but we know they hadn't rushed to the rooms, as it was said Erika at last had time to interrogate every servant.

PP:

Originally Posted by Kit

If we consider the fantasy scenes, or any scene involving Shannon and Kanon alone, it's very possible for Shannon to be both Shannon and Kanon at the same time (if not also Beatrice).

The fantasy scenes must be considered, but not trusted. The red don't effect then, for one thing.

Originally Posted by Kit

So I'd like to rephrase - I think it's in many ways illegal to say that Kanon doesn't exist in the bedroom if Shkanon is true. If Kanon is killed in the second twilight - when that takes place is probably at the time of the logic error - then it would be illegal to say that Kanon entered the door when his persona has clearly passed. But this is evidently not the case since his persona persists until he lets Battler out of the room while Erika examined the shower. Unless, somehow, Erika was the one responsible for the second twilight like she was the first, Kanon must exist in the bedroom unless his personality is killed "again" by Shannon, when it was already killed earlier on.

I fail to see why we must consider Kanon death to be at any point of time. Also, just because he 'died' in the Second Twilight, it don't mean he really died. Battler also died in the First Twilight, but it is very alive latter.

[Kit]

The above is what is suspicious - Battler is "Dead". Are we supposed to believe that? Ange was also listed as dead at the end of Episode 4. Her death was offscreen. Are we supposed to then suppose that Ange was not killed? What does that mean about the rest of the Game Records? Battler is killed in the first twilight, and is listed as thus, so I'm personally at a crossroads about whether or not Battler is alive, and in some theories concerning two Battlers, this issue becomes crucial.

[winter 923]

wait shkannon can not escape no matter what.
Know that it is forbidden for blue truth to be used if based on the argument that the window seals of the next room over were torn at the time of the logic error.At the time the next room over was sealed, Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo were in it. And, the number of people in the next room over was five. No one existed there except for those to whom those five names referred! All people can only use their own names!!
I know that Erika was given method X but only for arguing's sake of the things wich will happen next. So here is my blue:It is impossible to put tape on 2 rooms and windows at the same time just after leaving one of them. therefore !Kanon! escaped the cousins room while Erica was sealing it off. realtering the timeline is sci-fi and not mystery.

How did Kanon escape? after helping Battler? Battler and Kanon are different people.
There was no reason to state that if it was impossible for Kanon to escape without help. Therfore Kanon used this method to escape.

The game ended while I was inside the guest room, so I did not undo the chain lock that I had previously set. So, it can't be that he escaped behind my back after I left the room.
Erika did not undo the chain lock that she set. Kanon did, then he used the Masterkey to capture Erika and sealing the room again.


FurFur:Unknown/Jessica
Zepar:Unknown/George
Goats:Fantasy
if you go by the number of these 2 demons they can form Sayo and Yoshiya. furfur is the 23. deamon SaYo. Zepar is 16. 4+4+8= YoShiYa
Goats are to believed a natural disaster, in ep 2 the bomb goes off while rosa tries to escape to the shore. in ep4 the tunnel collapses.

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by Kit

The above is what is suspicious - Battler is "Dead". Are we supposed to believe that? Ange was also listed as dead at the end of Episode 4. Her death was offscreen. Battler is killed in the first twilight, and is listed as thus, so I'm personally at a crossroads about whether or not Battler is a live or not, and in some theories concerning two Battlers, this issue becomes crucial.

I think what we can infer from that is the End Roll lies. Maybe it show how it appear for the world. It seemed Batter and Kanon died in the First and Second Twilight (Kanon 'death' would be when he 'disappeared').

For example, lets say Juuza don't really kill Ange in the end, but pretend he did so. The End Roll list her as 'dead', even tough she is alive.

PP:

Originally Posted by winter 923

wait shkannon can not escape no matter what.
Know that it is forbidden for blue truth to be used if based on the argument that the window seals of the next room over were torn at the time of the logic error.At the time the next room over was sealed, Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo were in it. And, the number of people in the next room over was five. No one existed there except for those to whom those five names referred! All people can only use their own names!!

You are misunderstanding a few things. None of these red truths said the seal of the window was sealed at the time of the Logic Error. It also do not said the 5 was inside during the Logic Error, just that they were inside when the room was sealed. Therefore, if Shannon is Kanon, she can scape from the window after Erika leave the room.

The forbidding of the blue truth don't really mean nothing. Just that that theory couldn't be presented, even if it was true. Anyway, that 'seal' was latter removed so Erika could present her own blue truth using the window.

Originally Posted by winter 923

I know that Erika was given method X but only for arguing's sake of the things wich will happen next. So here is my blue:It is impossible to put tape on 2 rooms and windows at the same time just after leaving one of them. therefore !Kanon! escaped the cousins room while Erica was sealing it off. realtering the timeline is sci-fi and not mystery.

Damn, are you even reading the other posts? This is what we have been discussing just now. The seal were palced at same time just after Erika leaved the Next Room Over. Or, better said, Erika sealed retroactively the windows and, after leaving her room she sealed the doors.

[Moogleking]

So, I was really worried reading this since Shannon=Kanon was being laid on really thick and that would be pretty lame. However, at the end, it was completely denied.

I feel like we finally got a solid answer as to who Asumu's Battler is - Kanon.
The reason Kanon can escape from the guest room is clear, and they pretty much spell it out for us. If Kanon's name was Purupurupikoru, then he would have had to be in the sealed room, because "everyone else" was in that room.
It is explained that "everyone else" does not include the 6 people "dead" or the 5 people in the next room over. That means Kanon can escape as long as his name is the same as one of those 11. Also, people can only use their own names. Since Shannon is confirmed as one of the 5 in the sealed room, and nobody else can use Shannon's name, she pretty much has to be in there. This rules her out as a possible savior for Battler. Kanon has to take one of the other 10 viable names, and conveniently, we know the real names of everyone else listed. This means the only possible name to pick is one we know there exist 2 of - Battler.

So Kanon's real name is Battler, born of Asumu. Whether he got out of the window or wasn't even in the room when Erika sealed it is irrelevant.

The next question is, how did he disappear from the guest room? Given how we've gotten this far, it should be pretty clear by now how he managed that.
He switches from being Kanon to being Battler, but a different Battler than the one being talked about.

If you have 2 Battlers, then red text "Battler does not exist in this room." and "Battler does exist in this room." can both be valid!

If you're curious as to where he was hiding, since Erika opened the closet, he was probably under the bed!

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Heatth

I think what we can infer from that is the End Roll lies. Maybe it show how it appear for the world. It seemed Batter and Kanon died in the First and Second Twilight (Kanon 'death' would be when he 'disappeared').

For example, lets say Juuza don't really kill Ange in the end, but pretend he did so. The End Roll list her as 'dead', even tough she is alive.

You know, I think this is the trap the fanbase has gotten itself in to... deciding that everything lies. "I'll never believe anything other than red text!" 8)

Actually it seems like we might get more mileage out of deciding that people *aren't* lying and are actually telling the truth.. but their own subjective truth. Like for example when Maria says she really did see magic; she's not lying. Of course she doesn't know HOW that magic was performed.. of course...

Ok, so technically we know the End Roll is lying. But what if it's not lying; what if it's merely reporting on something else, like the fake murders the servants are running. It seems to be some kind of end report to that, instead...

Maybe this is what Ryukishi says, if you have no love you can't discern 視る it. 8)

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

You know, I think this is the trap the fanbase has gotten itself in to... deciding that everything lies. "I'll never believe anything other than red text!" 8)

Actually it seems like we might get more mileage out of deciding that people *aren't* lying and are actually telling the truth.. but their own subjective truth. Like for example when Maria says she really did see magic; she's not lying. Of course she doesn't know HOW that magic was performed.. of course...

Ok, so technically we know the End Roll is lying. But what if it's not lying; what if it's merely reporting on something else, like the fake murders the servants are running. It seems to be some kind of end report to that, instead...

I agree with you. I believe nothing but the red is 100% trustful. However, I believe everything is worth or interpretation. Including the End Roll. That is why I proposed the End Roll actually report how things seemed to happen. Your proposal is valid too.

Originally Posted by Moogleking

So, I was really worried reading this since Shannon=Kanon was being laid on really thick and that would be pretty lame. However, at the end, it was completely denied.

I feel like we finally got a solid answer as to who Asumu's Battler is - Kanon.
The reason Kanon can escape from the guest room is clear, and they pretty much spell it out for us. If Kanon's name was Purupurupikoru, then he would have had to be in the sealed room, because "everyone else" was in that room.
It is explained that "everyone else" does not include the 6 people "dead" or the 5 people in the next room over. That means Kanon can escape as long as his name is the same as one of those 11. Also, people can only use their own names. Since Shannon is confirmed as one of the 5 in the sealed room, and nobody else can use Shannon's name, she pretty much has to be in there. This rules her out as a possible savior for Battler. Kanon has to take one of the other 10 viable names, and conveniently, we know the real names of everyone else listed. This means the only possible name to pick is one we know there exist 2 of - Battler.

So Kanon's real name is Battler, born of Asumu. Whether he got out of the window or wasn't even in the room when Erika sealed it is irrelevant.

The next question is, how did he disappear from the guest room? Given how we've gotten this far, it should be pretty clear by now how he managed that.
He switches from being Kanon to being Battler, but a different Battler than the one being talked about.

If you have 2 Battlers, then red text "Battler does not exist in this room." and "Battler does exist in this room." can both be valid!

If you're curious as to where he was hiding, since Erika opened the closet, he was probably under the bed!

Again, there is no clear hint for Kanon being Battler. They don't even have the same age (and Kanon do see to be a lot younger).

Also, look at this:
"[Request: 'The six first twilight victims are located at the places where they were discovered. Natsuhi is in her room, Eva is in the VIP room, Kyrie is in Krauss's study, Rosa and Maria are in the parlor, and you are in the guest room!'] I acknowledge it." (emphasis mine) From Umineko Wiki.

When reporting when the victims were, Battler was the only one not mentioned by name. Therefore, even if Kanon was named Battler, this don't mean nothing, as it was never said that "Battler was in the guest room".

Anyway, This hardly "completely deny" Shkannon.

Also, lets make something clear: I also agree Shkannon is lame. However, after all these 'trial of love', '3 souls being one' and 'two loves who couldn't be fulfilled at same time' talk, I also thing that Shkannon not existing is even more lame. What would be the point of these scenes that took half of the Episode?

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Heatth

Damn, are you even reading the other posts? This is what we have been discussing just now. The seal were palced at same time just after Erika leaved the Next Room Over. Or, better said, Erika sealed retroactively the windows and, after leaving her room she sealed the doors.

Actually I just checked and the seals themselves don't seem to be the retroactive move that was used. It's true Battler retroactively gave Erika sticky duct tape, however the splitting of people into rooms and sealing them inside didn't happen until much later and at different times. In short the sealing of the rooms themselves were not a retroactive move. The privilege that Erika was allowed to use the duct tape for the seals was, but she seems to have taken her sweet time with it.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Actually I just checked and the seals themselves don't seem to be the retroactive move that was used. It's true Battler retroactively gave Erika sticky duct tape, however the splitting of people into rooms and sealing them inside didn't happen until much later. In short the sealing of the rooms themselves were not a retroactive move. The privilege that Erika was allowed to use the duct tape was.

However, the sealing of Battler's guest room was retroactive. And Battler didn't know about that until Erika told him. So, if she placed the seals on the cousins' room and the next room over before checking everyone's location, everything works out.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Heatth

Also, lets make something clear: I also agree Shkannon is lame. However, after all these 'trial of love', '3 souls being one' and 'two loves who couldn't be fulfilled at same time' talk, I also thing that Shkannon not existing is even more lame. What would be the point of these scenes that took half of the Episode?

Honestly the longer I mull it over the more I want to answer "Who cares? They sucked." I'm pretty sick of some of the board's least compelling characters and relationships getting shoved in my face like I'm supposed to care. Give me two minutes of Krauss and Natsuhi over any amount of George/Shannon. Or Kanon/Jessica. Or Battler/Beatrice honestly. Hell, I think the lesbian undertones with Dlanor and Erika are more compelling.

I just hope it's a meta-meta-meta troll and Hachijou really is a bad writer who gets torn to shreds by a new message bottle that rips her theories apart. Ah well, we can dream...

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

So, if she placed the seals on the cousins' room and the next room over before checking everyone's location, everything works out.

However the basis for the theory is we don't know that she did that.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

Honestly the longer I mull it over the more I want to answer "Who cares? They sucked." I'm pretty sick of some of the board's least compelling characters and relationships getting shoved in my face like I'm supposed to care. Give me two minutes of Krauss and Natsuhi over any amount of George/Shannon. Or Kanon/Jessica. Or Battler/Beatrice honestly. Hell, I think the lesbian undertones with Dlanor and Erika are more compelling.

I just hope it's a meta-meta-meta troll and Hachijou really is a bad writer who gets torn to shreds by a new message bottle that rips her theories apart. Ah well, we can dream...

Well, it's sounding more and more as though you just don't like the genre Umineko's in. That's not a matter of quality, it's a matter of tastes.

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by Renall

Honestly the longer I mull it over the more I want to answer "Who cares? They sucked." I'm pretty sick of some of the board's least compelling characters and relationships getting shoved in my face like I'm supposed to care. Give me two minutes of Krauss and Natsuhi over any amount of George/Shannon. Or Kanon/Jessica. Or Battler/Beatrice honestly. Hell, I think the lesbian undertones with Dlanor and Erika are more compelling.

Frankly, I agree.

Nothing against Battler/Beatrice, but Shkannon, Jessica and George are far from being my favorite characters. If we are talking about shipping, Krauss/Natsuhi and Dlanor/Erika are certainly more interesting, if only because Natsuhi and Dlanor are awesome and deserver every bit of screen time they get. If for character alone lets have more Gohda! We need him being as awesome as he was at EP2! And more Rosa and Maria as they were at the end of EP2 too.

Anyway, I hope this episode is the conclusion of the cousins/servants bit. Hope we move on for more interesting character next Episode.

Originally Posted by Judoh

Actually I just checked and the seals themselves don't seem to be the retroactive move that was used. It's true Battler retroactively gave Erika sticky duct tape, however the splitting of people into rooms and sealing them inside didn't happen until much later and at different times. In short the sealing of the rooms themselves were not a retroactive move. The privilege that Erika was allowed to use the duct tape for the seals was, but she seems to have taken her sweet time with it.

My point is when the room were sealed, that is it, when Dlanor said "the complete sealing of both the cousins' room and the next room over has been GUARANTEED.", Erika was in the corridor after leaving the Next Room Over. No time seem to have passed, implying the seal was placed in a 'instant'. For this to make sense from the Game Board POV, the seal of the window must have been placed beforehand.

Also, notice how Dlanor phosphatase " the complete sealing". This may mean the it was incompletely sealed until that point. That is it, just the windows were sealed.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Well, it's sounding more and more as though you just don't like the genre Umineko's in. That's not a matter of quality, it's a matter of tastes.

That's an uncharitable assumption.

I just happen to think the parents' relationships are a lot more realistic, sensible, interesting, and to be quite honest, romantic. Krauss and Natsuhi bumbling through their relationship in spite of their rather massive personal insecurities and problems is what makes their romance compelling.

George is portrayed as a sappy emotionally abusive weirdo. Shannon is an enigma who may be several other people and Beatrice. Jessica's alright, but Kanon just sort of spins his wheels until halfway into ep6 and may not exist in the first place, so that's a wash.

And what's happened to Beatrice over time is pretty much just a travesty. I get that she wasn't really evil. Was it really necessary to try to tug at my emotions by halfassedly "killing" her, then killing her "for real," then swearing she can't come back, then bringing her back (essentially, if not in fact) anyway, within the span of barely two episodes? She was barely even cold before she was back in ep6.

Believe me, this thing is a lot better as a mystery or a fantasy than it is as a romance. Unless that's the point.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Heatth

My point is when the room were sealed, that is it, when Dlanor said "the complete sealing of both the cousins' room and the next room over has been GUARANTEED.", Erika was in the corridor after leaving the Next Room Over. No time seem to have passed, implying the seal was placed in a 'instant'. For this to make sense from the Game Board POV, the seal of the window must have been placed beforehand.

Also, notice how Dlanor phosphatase " the complete sealing". This may mean the it was incompletely sealed until that point. That is it, just the windows were sealed.

And My point is that someone let Kanon out of the room before or at the same time she left the next room over. Meaning he left via the door or the window [whatever was available at the time] before it was completely sealed and thus wasn't in there. Nothing contradicts.

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by Judoh

And My point is that someone let Kanon out of the room before or at the same time she left the next room over. Meaning he left via the door or the window [whatever was available at the time] before it was completely sealed and thus wasn't in there. Nothing contradicts.

So, you are saying Kanon left the room just after Battler confirming he was inside it (moments after Erika getting out of the Next Room Over) and just before Erika sealing it (also just moments after Erika getting out of the Next Room Over). Actually, since we are talking about meta discussion here, probably no time at all have passed since Erika leave the room until ask Dlanor to seal the rooms.

And, anyway, if I am correct then the seal were placed, (retroactively) before Erika asking Battler to confirm the position. Therefore, Kanon can only be live the room if he was never there.

PP:
I agree with pretty much all Renall said as well (not that anyone cares).

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Heatth

So, you are saying Kanon left the room just after Battler confirming he was inside it (moments after Erika getting out of the Next Room Over) and just before Erika sealing it (also just moments after Erika getting out of the Next Room Over). Actually, since we are talking about meta discussion here, probably no time at all have passed since Erika leave the room until ask Dlanor to seal the rooms.

And, anyway, if I am correct then the seal were placed, (retroactively) before Erika asking Battler to confirm the position. Therefore, Kanon can only be live the room if he was never there.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree here. It's pretty much a stalemate between my claim and your claim and it's not going to go anywhere until EP7 explains it (if it does at all) at least.

[Disz]

If Shkannon is true, Kannon died twice.


Also,when they killed Rosa and Maria,are you implying she pretented to be Kannon,killed Rosa and changes herself, and kills Maria.

What?Disregarding the love trial which was fake,why wouldn't it just be said as Shannon killed both of them other than Kannon killing one and Shannon killing the other.

Also about your theory on the half souls,I've also come up with one.

Beatrice/Shannon gave her love of Battler to someone else.I think it's Jessica.

Now regarding the other soul Kannon,I will forEver continue to fight the Skannon theory.Simply because it outright contradicts the fact of Kannon being a soul at all.You cannot say that Beatrice and Shannon AND Kannon are together simply because Shannon gave Beatrice to someone else.And Beatrice being a half soul,found someone else.Kannon.Now the trick is finding out who he is,and I will not say Beatrice found Shannon.That is condratiction.

[winter 923]

Originally Posted by Heatth

You are misunderstanding a few things. None of these red truths said the seal of the window was sealed at the time of the Logic Error.

Yes that is true but if i am not allowed to argument that the seal is broken it becomes irrelevant if it is broken, i can not use it. the removal of that seal was also only stated in black. does that tell us that red can be removed at will from the creator? well hello mass fake death theories.

Also this is like "person X escaped with method Y" "IMPOSSIBLE! allow me to remove rule A so i can thing of something. Okey i now know a way" "oh yes that is totaly method Y" this is considered cheating and again retroactive. You can not do move 2 before move 1 at least i'd like that. I proclaim that the logic error has been avoided!! 'The chain lock is still set! And without any contradictions with any red truth made up to this point!'

Damn, are you even reading the other posts? This is what we have been discussing just now. The seal were palced at same time just after Erika leaved the Next Room Over. Or, better said, Erika sealed retroactively the windows and, after leaving her room she sealed the doors.

I write slow i am sorry. English is not my native language. I know that it is supposed to be retroactive but i am not accepting it.

The same with Battler's room. i do not accept the seal on the door BEFORE Erika gets there. not that it changes anything. retroactive? they tell us that magic is nothing more than trickery but bending Time is fine?. Okey maybe i do accept this one if the loophole works

I am not against Shkannon i just want to try every viewpoint i can find to see if there were other possibilities. Also It is possible for Kanon the rescue himself.

I'd say the final scroll is the ritual. you need to kill everyone off acording to the twilights to reach the "goal" and in EP6 it clearly shows that they do not need to be REALLY dead.