(L) Seirei no Moribito (Guardian of the Sacred Spirit)

[wao]

Originally Posted by MrProphet

Yeah? Ever seen the ratings for Code Geass or Haruhi? They were dismal, even lower than the ones for E7. But the DVDs are selling like crazy.

I'm just saying. "Teenagers" the guy was referring to above don't watch anime at 8:00 am, no matter how you slice it. Moreover, "teenagers" don't watch anime on a satellite channels much either. So "teenagers" (i.e. prime time shounen viewers) aren't really factored in the equation that much.

And, forgive me to say, but "negative publicity"? Methinks you are just projecting your personal attitude toward E7.

And Code Geass and Haruhi also had dismal ratings but sold better than E7, and they were clearly aimed at anime otaku not like E7 which did try to aim at other audiences (if that worked, surely there should have been some sort of. Apparently it did better on a late-night rerun, strangely enough, but I don't have any stats to back it up.

As for negative publicity -

Spoiler for offtopic:

if you've browsed the 2ch anime board while Eureka was airing you'd see that the anti-E7 threads were pretty active while the main one used to get a lot of antis coming in, and while this even happens for shows like Haruhi, there's something strange when the antis even set up their own wiki showing what's wrong with the show (along with a page of many interviews, some where people in the industry like Yoshikazu Yasuhiko make criticisms of the show)

Of course 2ch isn't everything, but it's a lot (and most of the actual audience that would watch it goes to the anime boards there). I am guessing you may find more negative than positive reactions to it on the Japanese blogosphere too...
There are obviously positive reactions to it as well, people who really do like it and participate in doujin activity and all, and the DVDs didn't sell badly either despite the ratings; but I don't think it succeeded as well as the producers were hoping - most of the negative reactions to it must have been because of all the hype before it aired which kind of raised the bar too high.

I'm not making it up, at any rate. The negative publicity for Eureka 7 was definitely more than there is for Seirei no Moribito. That is dangerous when you put in a lot of budget and planning into a show, especially where the show's sucess is determined by people who wil make the decision to buy the DVDs. It's true that I don't like the show as much as you, but I wish you wouldn't assume I'd throw in such statements about other people to get my agenda across. There's no point in me doing that in this thread of all places.

And since I have gone disgustingly off-topic I'm not talking about it in this thread anymore.

Although I would like to hear some official comment as to why on earth they chose that timeslot anyway. Maybe they spent so much on the show they couldn't spend more to get a good timeslot as well... If that is true I think it's an interesting risk.

I was rereading the official press statement from Geneon that talked about the very fund that was used to create this anime, and the factor of overseas sales really seems to be very important. So maybe they're really counting on overseas sales to balance out the somewhat strange timeslot. If the timeslot is really making a difference.
Since they mentioned working with the internet and mobile phones as media we could hope that they have some online streaming service for this show... in America.

[orion]

Originally Posted by wao

Although I would like to hear some official comment as to why on earth they chose that timeslot anyway. Maybe they spent so much on the show they couldn't spend more to get a good timeslot as well... If that is true I think it's an interesting risk.

I was rereading the official press statement from Geneon that talked about the very fund that was used to create this anime, and the factor of overseas sales really seems to be very important. So maybe they're really counting on overseas sales to balance out the somewhat strange timeslot. If the timeslot is really making a difference.
Since they mentioned working with the internet and mobile phones as media we could hope that they have some online streaming service for this show... in America.

This is based on a children's story that's going to be a classic, right? So maybe 8 AM was the best that NHK could offer. Kaze no Shoujo Emily didn't fair any better. It got a 7:25 AM airing. Les Miserables: Shoujo Cossette is the only children's classic to get a decent start time. It starts at 7:30 PM according to mahou. Maybe this type of production isn't popular in Japan either and fans have to record them to view them. They are prob relying heavily on the DVD and streaming sales.

Now Geneon is already setting up its streaming side with Vuze and XBox Live Marketplace, but it needs have dedicated cable channel programming packages like FUNimation and ADV imo with this title being one of the required titles imo.

[Sorrow-K]

Ep 9.

Yes, I have run out of words to describe how good this series is. For now, all I can say is "bring on more". Other than the plot, which has yet to even look like taking a step-wrong pace-wise (let alone writing-wise), there were a few more hints in this ep about Balsa's background. It's inevitable that they'll eventually deal with it, but I seriously can't wait until they do, since only an amazing background could do justice to an amazing character, and the indications I'm reading so far is that it's very unlikely it's going to be anything but.

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Subs are now through ep 9.

Does anyone else think this must be a rather risky series for I.G.? It seems awfully unconventional for an fantasy adventure show given how many episodes have no real "action" (at least in the physical sense) at all. Another show like Blood+ woud seem like a safer bet than Seirei.

Seirei airs ahead of Saiunkoku Monogatari on Saturdays at 8:00 am on NHK/BS2, a time when most teenagers are dead asleep. If I.G./NHK see this as a good complement to SaiMono, they must be targeting the josei audience. NHK's live-action interview show with the VAs in SaiMono showed an audience dominated by ladies in their twenties and up. Is that the target for Seirei no Moribito?

Seirei never appears in the ratings so I can't tell how popular it is (I don't think ratings are published for BS2 since it's a pay service.). Yet it's obvious that a lot of time, love, and money has gone into this show. I.G. probably has pretty deep pockets for an anime house, but still, I hope they get rewarded for taking on this project. I know I'll be buying the R1 discs when they come out, though I think the "pre-licensing" deal may turn out to backfire when they discover there's no built-in audience for SnM upon its arrival in the States.

It's the DVD sales that will make or break this series financially, and I, for one, unquestionable plan to buy this series (barring an unforseeable nosedive in the later episodes... and no one wants to or expects to see that). I don't expect it to do brilliantly in Japan, since there's no mass appeal with this series, but I expect it to sell enough to at least recover costs. And while I have nothing to base that on past blind speculation and optimism that there are people out there that appreciate quality anime, I just can't help but think that they wouldn't make this series unless they expect at least some profit. I mean, I'm pretty sure GITS sold, right?

Hell, it's already licensed, so I'm sure that's gone some way towards I.G. making some money.

[7Th]

I'm pretty sure teenagers weren't E7 main audience... the best show for a comparison there is Gurren-Lagann, both shows' intended demographics is pretty much the same even if the second one is even more confusing due to the heavy classic references.

[orion]

Originally Posted by 7Th

I'm pretty sure teenagers weren't E7 main audience... the best show for a comparison there is Gurren-Lagann, both shows' intended demographics is pretty much the same even if the second one is even more confusing due to the heavy classic references.

But G-L also has a card game component which was skewing it to teens and slightly lower and an online video game component according to wiki. It is competing with Precure for viewers and losing. However, its fanservice component was ratching up the maturity level and prob makes it unsuitable for the Precure audience imo.

Then there's this from ANN...

Originally Posted by ANN

More Distractions Lead to Falling Kids' Anime Ratings
Hollywood Reporter reviews the decline in the primetime audience of children's anime in Japan due to games, afterschool activities, and other distractions. Specifically, Sgt. Frog (Keroro-Gunsō) had to move from Friday evenings to Saturday mornings this past April, and One Piece had to move to Sunday mornings. Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo tried moving from Saturday evenings to Saturday mornings in 2004, but was canceled in 2005. The National Congress of the Parents Teachers Association reported in December that 92% of fifth-graders have game systems.

So maybe Serei no Moribito needs to be a MMORPG also.

[7Th]

Originally Posted by orion

But G-L also has a card game component which was skewing it to teens and slightly lower and an online video game component according to wiki. It is competing with Precure for viewers and losing. However, its fanservice component was ratching up the maturity level and prob makes it unsuitable for the Precure audience imo.

Heh, sadly for Konami most of the Gurren-Lagann profits will not come from little kids... I don't think that was Gainax's intended audience at all, although the first Gurren-Lagann model sale numbers weren't bad at all... but mechanic figurines are mostly bought by otaku or the like.

And wao... I don't think 2ch "anti-" threads mean much at all, LuckyStar has a pretty active number of negative topics and you can still see the popularity.

[orion]

I agree that it wasn't Gainax's intended audience from the content which sealed its own doom in that demographics, but Konami seems to be still aiming for the younger population.

Originally Posted by wiki

An online video game developed by Konami will be released called Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann Chouzetsu Hakkutsu ONLINE (天元突破グレンラガン 超絶発掘ONLINE, Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann Chouzetsu Hakkutsu ONLINE?). Beta testing has ended as of April 16, 2007. The player takes up the role of a driller and drills for treasures in first person view. There is a shop to purchase drills — the shopkeeper is an original character named Asaki. The player can also collect digital trading cards.

But, Lucky Star has the might of Kyoto Animation behind it.

[Sorrow-K]

Originally Posted by 7Th

And wao... I don't think 2ch "anti-" threads mean much at all, LuckyStar has a pretty active number of negative topics and you can still see the popularity.

Generally, the more popular something is, the more people there are that will deride it.

I'm sure there's a train of thought out there from a PR point of view that the masses criticizing something is almost a good thing, since at least people are talking about it, increasing the public's awareness of it.

[Joojoobees]

One way or another, I'm in for the R1 release.

As to whether there is an American market or not, I think they have to be careful about how they present it. It may be a "children's classic" but it will appeal a lot more to an older crowd than to teenagers. I know anime releases never get this kind of treatment, but it would be a really good idea for them to create a trailer and attach it to theatrical releases of some art-house production. Basically try to rope in the folks who would watch Studio Ghibli, not Bleach.

I'm sure they can make this look good on the big screen.

[kujoe]

I was wondering if this series would eventually be released in either Blu-ray or HD DVD.

Will there even be a difference in visual quality if that were the case? After all, the visuals of the anime have an emphasis on color and scale, and I would be seriously thinking about spending extra for this wonderful series if it would mean getting the better version—assuming of course, that the series continues to prove itself worth it up to the very end.

Then again, until this format war finally ends maybe I shouldn't be holding my breath for such a release. Besides, I have no problem with dvds.

[TinyRedLeaf]

If it comes out on Blu-Ray, I'd have yet another reason to buy a PS3.

Not that I'm actually looking forward to that, to be sure. It'll also mean having to buy a new HDTV, the cheapest ones of which still cost around S$2,000 or so.

[4Tran]

So far, Seirei no Moribito is definitely a quality show. The main things I liked about it are the artwork and animation, the overall setting, the characters, and the attention to the environment. All in all, it's easily one of the best new shows of this season.

Most people have already covered its highlights, so there's no real need to repeat their efforts. However, I'd like to point out a couple of things in particular. The fight scenes are some of the best ones I've seen in anime in years (basically since Jubei-chan 2). Instead of using the anime standard of still shots and lighting effects to connote the action, Seirei no Moribito actually illustrates the motion. Moreover, the action isn't of the herky-jerky nature where there are so few frames used that it's hard to tell what's actually going on. This is the closest I've seen to live-action fights in a long time, and the show deserves major kudos for that. Next, I'm a real sucker for shows that try to draw the viewer into its story by paying a lot of attention to detail, and by giving the setting itself a sense of interaction. Seirei no Moribito does this from the very first scene, but in terms of visceral impact, episode four easily surpasses it. It's not a huge surprise that the other outstanding shows airing also feature this. Finally, I think that this show finally disproves the naysayers who say that animation was better when they used cel techniques. While there are a few advantages using traditional methods, many of the scenes in Seirei no Moribito simply couldn't have been done the old fashioned way - the chase through the canyons and the funeral scene come immediately to mind. At the very least, the show would have been prohibitively expensive to produce.

On an interesting note, I generally think that there's a lot of similarity between shounen action shows and wuxia. In the case of Seirei no Moribito, this feeling is particularly pronounced. Up to episode 8, everything played out like one of those martial arts fantasies with a little bit of magic added in: from the setting, to the characters, to the plot, and so forth. While the swordsmith's anecdote is presented fairly unusually for anime, it's a staple for wuxia. There's a reason why TinyRedLeaf's comparisons are so apt.

In terms of comparison, I don't think that Seirei no Moribito is all that similar to Twelve Kingdoms. They both take place in a quasi-Asian country where there's a lot of attention placed on the setting and environment, but that's really about it. In terms of the actual story structure and themes, they're really nothing alike. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if fans of the one happen to like the other as well.

[gaguri]

Originally Posted by 4tran

Finally, I think that this show finally disproves the naysayers who say that animation was better when they used cel techniques.

I think it's only fair to exploit the advancing technologies that are available to the fullest, if the result is something no other techniques could produce through traditional methods. Renzo Piano the architect said something similar on the usage of advancing technologies on architecture to reflect it adaptating to changing history and values of society.

And it is true that the comparison to the first thirteen episodes of Twelve Kingdoms I made is becoming less valid as the show progresses. They both seemed like an epic and intense journey of one character in a world filled with fantastic wonders. Serei is however is placing far less focus on the main character, and instead building up other characters and the world as a whole. In addition, despite few fantasy elements, it feels closer to settings in period dramas of China/japan/etc. Compared to this, Twelve Kingdoms is filled with fantastic elements that provides intrigue and reflection of the ideas such as kingship, denial and loyalty. My impression from the earlier episodes that the show is taking the path closer to Twelve Kingdoms was completely off. Regardless of how interesting these 'building up' scene are, I'm still really hoping for Balsa to continue the journey she embarked upon since episode 1, that relentless and restless journey of her struggling to reach that destination no matter the odds. I would have thought many others shared my interests but I guess most are fine with watching people talking pretty much about anything than Balsa's journey.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by gaguri

Serei is however is placing far less focus on the main character, and instead building up other characters and the world as a whole.

Actually, you can say the same thing about Twelve Kingdoms. However, the direction it chooses in accomplishing this is different from the one Seirei chooses. The former delves into history, different character perspectives and concepts of morality, whereas Seirei chooses to portray how its characters deal with their current situation in the slice of life sense: Balsa raising Chagum, Chagum adapting to his new life, Shuga and co. coming to grips with the loss of their prince, etc.

[7Th]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

So far, Seirei no Moribito is definitely a quality show. The main things I liked about it are the artwork and animation, the overall setting, the characters, and the attention to the environment. All in all, it's easily one of the best new shows of this season.

Most people have already covered its highlights, so there's no real need to repeat their efforts. However, I'd like to point out a couple of things in particular. The fight scenes are some of the best ones I've seen in anime in years (basically since Jubei-chan 2). Instead of using the anime standard of still shots and lighting effects to connote the action, Seirei no Moribito actually illustrates the motion. Moreover, the action isn't of the herky-jerky nature where there are so few frames used that it's hard to tell what's actually going on. This is the closest I've seen to live-action fights in a long time, and the show deserves major kudos for that. Next, I'm a real sucker for shows that try to draw the viewer into its story by paying a lot of attention to detail, and by giving the setting itself a sense of interaction. Seirei no Moribito does this from the very first scene, but in terms of visceral impact, episode four easily surpasses it. It's not a huge surprise that the other outstanding shows airing also feature this. Finally, I think that this show finally disproves the naysayers who say that animation was better when they used cel techniques. While there are a few advantages using traditional methods, many of the scenes in Seirei no Moribito simply couldn't have been done the old fashioned way - the chase through the canyons and the funeral scene come immediately to mind. At the very least, the show would have been prohibitively expensive to produce.

On an interesting note, I generally think that there's a lot of similarity between shounen action shows and wuxia. In the case of Seirei no Moribito, this feeling is particularly pronounced. Up to episode 8, everything played out like one of those martial arts fantasies with a little bit of magic added in: from the setting, to the characters, to the plot, and so forth. While the swordsmith's anecdote is presented fairly unusually for anime, it's a staple for wuxia. There's a reason why TinyRedLeaf's comparisons are so apt.

In terms of comparison, I don't think that Seirei no Moribito is all that similar to Twelve Kingdoms. They both take place in a quasi-Asian country where there's a lot of attention placed on the setting and environment, but that's really about it. In terms of the actual story structure and themes, they're really nothing alike. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if fans of the one happen to like the other as well.

FLCL did that better.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by gaguri

And it is true that the comparison to the first thirteen episodes of Twelve Kingdoms I made is becoming less valid as the show progresses. They both seemed like an epic and intense journey of one character in a world filled with fantastic wonders. Serei is however is placing far less focus on the main character, and instead building up other characters and the world as a whole. In addition, despite few fantasy elements, it feels closer to settings in period dramas of China/japan/etc. Compared to this, Twelve Kingdoms is filled with fantastic elements that provides intrigue and reflection of the ideas such as kingship, denial and loyalty.

I'm afraid that you're a little bit off in your comparison. The first story arc of Twelve Kingdoms is more about world building than anything else - even character interaction is partially sacrificed to explain how things work. The big difference here is that while Seirei no Moribito so far displays a world that's not too unfamiliar to anyone who's familiar with Fareast Asian history, the world of the Twelve Kingdoms is quite different in many fundamental respects.

Originally Posted by 7th

FLCL did that better.

I'm afraid it didn't. People who talk about the advantages of cel techniques don't argue for a purely technical standpoint; they are quite likely to do so from emotional ones. Moreover, many of them will bring up arguments like character design and choreography. Regardless of FLCL's technical merits, it's first an OVA and second not a particularly realistic show. Seirei no Moribitio is different in both respects; which is why it's a much better example for this purpose.

[gaguri]

Originally Posted by kujoe

Actually, you can say the same thing about Twelve Kingdoms. However, the direction it chooses in accomplishing this is different from the one Seirei chooses. The former delves into history, different character perspectives and concepts of morality, whereas Seirei chooses to portray how its characters deal with their current situation in the slice of life sense: Balsa raising Chagum, Chagum adapting to his new life, Shuga and co. coming to grips with the loss of their prince, etc.

That's not the case when I look at Youko from 12 kingdoms and Balsa from Seirei. The way Youko is explored from the beginning to the thirteenth episode is incredibly intense, while Balsa is not. Youko's struggle to survive and find herself a strength from a helpless girl is relentless. This is done through her exploration of the world, which then helps build up the world at the same time as her development. Compared to this, Balsa making Chagum 'adapting to his new life' doesn't have as much impact on her as a character at the moment, and the focus has shifted from Balsa developing as a character through her conflicts in this world (which was the impression I got from the first few episodes) to giving more insights into other side characters and their relationships, etc. To me this is an obvious difference in focus those two shows are placing on.

Originally Posted by 4tran

I'm afraid that you're a little bit off in your comparison. The first story arc of Twelve Kingdoms is more about world building than anything else - even character interaction is partially sacrificed to explain how things work. The big difference here is that while Seirei no Moribito so far displays a world that's not too unfamiliar to anyone who's familiar with Fareast Asian history, the world of the Twelve Kingdoms is quite different in many fundamental respects.

The difference is that in 12 Kingdoms you have a world building up through the intense struggle of Youko, while right now Seirei is looking at entities outside Balsa to establish the worlds. Sure, you have insights from Swordsmiths about her purpose in spear wielding, Balsa's pasts with her raising Chagum, these are all done in a subtle way to give more backgrounds to her character. This will probably help in the later episodes when Balsa actually fight for her ideals, but right now this is giving her a 'time-out' and letting other aspects a chance to shine. This is completely different from what Youko went through.
I think you're misunderstanding me on the fact that I'm thinking (if over-simplified) '12 kingdoms is on characters, Seirei is on the world'. What I'm thinking is 'They both build up their worlds successfully (essential for the genre) but their focus on Youko is obviously lot stronger than Balsa, while Seirei is interested more on the overall relatinoships (from relationships between Chagum and his brother, tutor, Balsa, and Balsa with her friends, father, etc.).

You must also understand that we are only speculating here about Seirei and only take what we've seen so far as something to ponder on. Those aspects of Seirei seems to be hinting at such things, but remember that my impressions on the first few episodes are clearly different from what the latest episodes are doing, so nothing is definite.

And 'FLCL's animation is better than Seirei' is a foolish argument because both shows are aiming to paint completely different worlds while expressing completely different feelings.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by gaguri

That's not the case when I look at Youko from 12 kingdoms and Balsa from Seirei. The way Youko is explored from the beginning to the thirteenth episode is incredibly intense, while Balsa is not. Youko's struggle to survive and find herself a strength from a helpless girl is relentless. This is done through her exploration of the world, which then helps build up the world at the same time as her development. Compared to this, Balsa making Chagum 'adapting to his new life' doesn't have as much impact on her as a character at the moment, and the focus has shifted from Balsa developing as a character through her conflicts in this world (which was the impression I got from the first few episodes) to giving more insights into other side characters and their relationships, etc. To me this is an obvious difference in focus those two shows are placing on.

My focus was more related with regard to how both stories build up their respective settings. In this sense, I agree with 4Tran when s/he says that Twelve Kingdoms is more about world building than anything else—the way it thinks, its laws, history and culture, and ultimately its people. Compared to where the story of Seirei is right now, it's perspective is more far-reaching; it's characters drawn with broader strokes. Seirei on the other hand (for now perhaps), centers more on its main characters, hence the slice of moments it portrays, Chagum's coming of age and the similarities it shares with the wuxia novel genre.

[gaguri]

Ah ok. In that case I agree partially because the world of Twelve Kingdoms is fascinating, given that we're not comparing the struggles and journey of the main character, which was previously my point of discussion.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by gaguri

Ah ok. In that case I agree partially because the world of Twelve Kingdoms is fascinating, given that we're not comparing the struggles and journey of the main character, which was previously my point of discussion.

Well, just to clear up some confusion I may have caused with my comments earlier, my response was directed at that line I quoted you on.