Clannad - Q & A

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by typhonsentra

Well the dating sim aspect is there and it plays a fairly substantial part of the game on the school side, no? You do date most of the girls in this game after all.

Except the fact that you do also interact and take routes with characters you don't date at all.
Furthermore, Dating Sim refer to the type of game that doesn't give you almost any story, and solely relies on a real "dating simulation" where you have several choices to raise your "point meter" in order to hook with X or Y girl (as such, the prime goal is to please a girl, with lots of possible actions to lead to gain "points").

That is absolutely not the same as a galge visual novel. Even though you end up with a girl in such kind of game, the predominant aspect is the narration, plot and backstory. You do no do things to hook a girl, but getting in the said route will lead to the romance (as such, you end up with choices that lead you to be closer to a certain girl, and ONLY after a certain point, you are in her route, and you don't have to do anything, and over time, the romance is blooming).

[Tak]

Originally Posted by dgreater1

As for the Dating Sim, CLANNAD==>AFTER STORY isn't really labeled like that. Most dating sim games end with getting a girlfriend and ending with that. CLANNAD continues forward up to the whole story of the person's life, be it BAD END or GOOD END.

Not really. After Story is about Nagisa, and that is it. You can argue that After Story is more visual novel than dating, but the rest of the segments in Clannad is very much about dating, as well.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

That is absolutely not the same as a galge visual novel. Even though you end up with a girl in such kind of game, the predominant aspect is the narration, plot and backstory. You do no do things to hook a girl, but getting in the said route will lead to the romance (as such, you end up with choices that lead you to be closer to a certain girl, and ONLY after a certain point, you are in her route, and you don't have to do anything, and over time, the romance is blooming).

I am not sure if everyone would define it in this way as you do. Even in Japan, the definition is nowhere near as restricted as yours.

Clannad on Getchu is categorized as:

アドベンチャー、学園、恋愛、純愛 (Adventure, school, romance, pure love), which are categories that appear on most dating sims/visual novels. It does not specifically state that this is a visual novel and that is a dating sim. The fact is, its a bit of dating and a bit of visual novel, but whichever side you wish to lean on, its completely up to you.

Some of the definitions are reinforced by fans on the western side of the pacific, with no mirroring Japanese counterpart.

Although Tomoyo After would be a true visual novel. After all, there is no choice.

- Tak

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Tak

I am not sure if everyone would define it in this way as you do. Even in Japan, the definition is nowhere near as restricted as yours.

Clannad on Getchu is categorized as:

アドベンチャー、学園、恋愛、純愛 (Adventure, school, romance, pure love), which are categories that appear on most dating sims/visual novels. It does not specifically state that this is a visual novel and that is a dating sim. The fact is, its a bit of dating and a bit of visual novel, but whichever side you wish to lean on, its completely up to you.

Some of the definitions are reinforced by fans on the western side of the pacific, with no mirroring Japanese counterpart.

And that is the problem, because the western side always use definition erratically (such like hentai etc). The term used for dating sim is "ren'ai" (恋愛) which is really used for what is to be: a simulation (example: magical date).
By no mean you use "dating sim" for games you simply read and make a mere choice here and there, in waiting to see what is going next.

People really focalize too much on the "dating" aspect (which makes it even less true when you pull VN that involve non romance route), despite the important difference is "novel" and "simulation".

See Kj1980's post about these and the wikipedia articles for both Visual Novel/ADV games and Dating Sim.

Although Tomoyo After would be a true visual novel. After all, there is no choice.

That is again another misconception. Visual Novels may or may not have choices (and funnily enough, there IS choice in TA, but not for the best reasons). The thing is that visual novel in japan are seen as a "story that YOU are the hero and you select your path". Which is arguably nowhere close to dating sim, as you are gunning for a girl from the very start and it will just dwells into the possible outcome (or not).

[dgreater1]

Originally Posted by Tak

Not really. After Story is about Nagisa, and that is it. You can argue that After Story is more visual novel than dating, but the rest of the segments in Clannad is very much about dating, as well.



I am not sure if everyone would define it in this way as you do. Even in Japan, the definition is nowhere near as restricted as yours.

Clannad on Getchu is categorized as:

アドベンチャー、学園、恋愛、純愛 (Adventure, school, romance, pure love), which are categories that appear on most dating sims/visual novels. It does not specifically state that this is a visual novel and that is a dating sim. The fact is, its a bit of dating and a bit of visual novel, but whichever side you wish to lean on, its completely up to you.

Some of the definitions are reinforced by fans on the western side of the pacific, with no mirroring Japanese counterpart.

Although Tomoyo After would be a true visual novel. After all, there is no choice.

- Tak

I don't really want to argue more on this but you can see the difference here

Dating Simulation games are more of a statistical game while CLANNAD is an Adventure Game (Choose your own adventure game) and not really a statistical game. The word Simulation is the key word here and CLANNAD isn't a simulation. Just like Klashikari said.

You're probably mixing Renai games (Japanese term) with Dating Simulation (English term).

From Japanese wikipedia:

恋愛ゲーム（れんあいゲーム）は、登場するキャラクターとゲーム世界の中で交際し、
仮想恋愛を体験するゲームである。恋愛をテーマにしたゲームの中でも、
交際の疑似体験をプレイヤーに提供するところに特徴がある。
狭い意味では恋愛自体が目的のゲームを指すが、
広い意味ではプレイヤーをキャラクターに惚れさせる要素があるゲーム全般を指し、
恋愛ゲームとそうでないゲームとの境界は必ずしも明確ではない。

Renai Games are games where you will search and get introduced to a character,
you can also say it's a personal imaginative experience with love (love-making simulation in short)
where the player builds up his character.
In a nutcase (short term), the point of the game is love-making.
In long term, it's a game where you will make a character fall in love with you by means of elements.
Although, there are Renai games that aren't always defined like that.

基本的には男性プレイヤー向けの製品と女性プレイヤー向けの製品は明確に区別されるが、
「男女兼用恋愛ゲーム」という、ひとつのソフトで両方楽しめるゲームも存在する。

By basics, it's intended players are males OR females but
there are also games where both parties (male and female) will enjoy it.

Not every Renai games are Dating Simulation, that's our point. Although, you can say that Dating Simulation is a sub-genre of Renai games, CLANNAD is a Visual Novel (Choose your Adventure) game which is also a sub-genre of Renai games. I hope that clears some things.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

And that is the problem, because the western side always use definition erratically (such like hentai etc). The term used for dating sim is "ren'ai" (恋愛) which is really used for what is to be: a simulation (example: magical date).

You do understand that Getchu is the largest Japanese PC-game retailer on the web, yes? And that is how they categorize Clannad? A ren'ai game?

Link: http://www.getchu.com/soft.phtml?id=502245

Nobody define dating sims as 恋愛シミュレーションゲーム anymore, just as nobody use the word 'gay' to mean 'happy'. And definitely nobody will pull out that whole wikipedia definition when I go shopping for a particular ren'ai game. If I ask for ren'ai games, I would be pointed to a shelf with games like Tokimeki Memorial and Clannad in the same section.

I guessed that some of you would go through miles to define that term. But, if my Japanese acquaintances don't give a rats bottom, retailers don't give a rats bottom, and that the game companies don't give a rats bottom, I quite frankly don't see why I should give a rat's bottom about the strict use of the definition myself.

So you know, don't tire yourself doing so, its not going to help with the shopping.

- Tak

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Tak

You do understand that Getchu is the largest Japanese PC-game retailer on the web, yes? And that is how they categorize Clannad? A ren'ai game?

And so? You use some weird assumption that Getchu is the holy truth. Not like I don't use that site myself either heh.

And I still don't see how it is relevant to expect the classification of a game being really representative of the use of words, especially when it is basically not the case. You say yourself that it is not how we define dating sim anymore, with "ren'ai". Sure, let's say so, then? It doesn't exactly confirm either the nature of dating sim either you see. And let's imagine again that it is now how japanese translate ADV into this, it is certainly messing up with the western use of dating sim (which would be a plain and dumb "sim" game with romance in there, totally not the same thing as a plain visual novel with choices etc).

I guessed that some of you would go through miles to define that term. But, if my Japanese acquaintances don't give a rats bottom, retailers don't give a rats bottom, and that the game companies don't give a rats bottom, I quite frankly don't see why I should give a rat's bottom about the strict use of the definition myself.

Anyway, the point is, if we don't define the said games under strict restrictions, I don't see why any of you would need to tire yourselves doing so, especially in a session (here) that I consider to be nothing more than a casual conversation.

The point was to avoid misunderstanding and misconception of the already messed up western side you see. You probably don't care, but I feel correcting a term wouldn't be to the detriment of the readers though, so feel free to don't care about it, but I believe it was still interesting to touch this part, which is as messed up as misused words such like hentai, ecchi and otaku by the western side.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

And so? You use some weird assumption that Getchu is the holy truth. Not like I don't use that site myself either heh.

Sure, its not the holy truth, but if every Japanese retailer I been to does the same thing in categorizing such games, then... are you to say that they are wrong?

Anyway, the point is, making the definitions in detail (as you did) will not help with the shopping. It certainly won't help me, as I'd imagine some of the clerks in my favorite joins would give me a blank stare on the face, with an equivalent Japanese expression of wtf?

- Tak

[dgreater1]

Originally Posted by Tak

Sure, its not the holy truth, but if every Japanese retailer I been to does the same thing in categorizing such games, then... are you to say that they are wrong?

Anyway, the point is, making the definitions in detail (as you did) will not help with the shopping. It certainly won't help me, as I'd imagine some of the clerks in my favorite joins would give me a blank stare on the face, with an equivalent Japanese expression of wtf?

- Tak

Did you skip this part?

Not every Renai games are Dating Simulation, that's our point. Although, you can say that Dating Simulation is a sub-genre of Renai games, CLANNAD is a Visual Novel (Choose your Adventure) game which is also a sub-genre of Renai games. I hope that clears some things.

Anyway, we were just pointing out (discussing) the difference between Dating Sim to other Ren'Ai games which is CLANNAD. If you think CLANNAD is a dating sim, sure, we won't force you to think otherwise. Ren'Ai have some elements of a dating sim but at the same time it's also completely devoid of it. Ren'ai doesn't literally translate to "Dating Sim", Dating Sim is just a subgenre of Renai. Visual Novel which is Planterian, CLANNAD, Tomoyo After is also a subgenre of Renai. You can also say that Turn Based games are not the same as Real Time Strategy games yet both of them are STRATEGY games. CLANNAD is a RENAI game, classified as VisualNovel, it's story based, not statistical based where the word Simulation lands.

Renai games are Dating-Sim but not all Renai games are Dating-Sim, you don't classify them as one. Again, we're pointing out misconceptions, even if you think that's TRIVIAL to you, it is not to others.

[velvet]

Agreed with Klashikari and dgreater1 so far.
Although Tak's point cannot be dismissed altogether. The media appearance of CLANNAD did not help in this case, while showing all 5 main girls as if they were the main idea/core of this story.
I can understand though that it helps sell CLANNAD in the first place.

Originally Posted by Tak

Clannad on Getchu is categorized as:

アドベンチャー、学園、恋愛、純愛 (Adventure, school, romance, pure love), which are categories that appear on most dating sims/visual novels. It does not specifically state that this is a visual novel and that is a dating sim. The fact is, its a bit of dating and a bit of visual novel, but whichever side you wish to lean on, its completely up to you.

Some of the definitions are reinforced by fans on the western side of the pacific, with no mirroring Japanese counterpart.

Although Tomoyo After would be a true visual novel. After all, there is no choice.

Just curious, what did we get for TA's genre in getchu?
Is there any game that Getchu classify as Visual Novel?

Originally Posted by Tak

If I ask for ren'ai games, I would be pointed to a shelf with games like Tokimeki Memorial and Clannad in the same section.

Agreed. Refer to my points before that CLANNAD (at first) might have tried to sell itself via the 5 main girls, and that first impression might have formed a general opinion.
And there's nothing wrong with that.
Just like the fact that Kanon included ero-material in its first release, and up until now my acquintances still see it as an Eroge. Not to argue beside, well there is more to that.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

That is absolutely not the same as a galge visual novel. Even though you end up with a girl in such kind of game, the predominant aspect is the narration, plot and backstory. You do no do things to hook a girl, but getting in the said route will lead to the romance (as such, you end up with choices that lead you to be closer to a certain girl, and ONLY after a certain point, you are in her route, and you don't have to do anything, and over time, the romance is blooming).

Not quite sure I understand so,
Let's see..
In a dating sim we get this so called flag.
As we achieve flags, we get a certain relationship level with (a) girl(maybe more), leading through different ending(s).
As far as I recall, CLANNAD's flags is merely an opener to routes/stories. Once you go down a route, there is no way to decrease your relationship with a certain [target].
This could be perceived differently though, but in my PoV at least, the choices available in CLANNAD (though I don't recall perfectly) are not to deepen this relationship.
To even further contradict myself, there is some choices and Kyou and Tomoyo routes that indeed felt like a dating sim flags...
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
so Klashikari, are we on the same page here?

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by velvet

Not quite sure I understand so,
Let's see..
In a dating sim we get this so called flag.
As we achieve flags, we get a certain relationship level with (a) girl(maybe more), leading through different ending(s).
As far as I recall, CLANNAD's flags is merely an opener to routes/stories. Once you go down a route, there is no way to decrease your relationship with a certain [target].
This could be perceived differently though, but in my PoV at least, the choices available in CLANNAD (though I don't recall perfectly) are not to deepen this relationship.
To even further contradict myself, there is some choices and Kyou and Tomoyo routes that indeed felt like a dating sim flags...
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
so Klashikari, are we on the same page here?

Quite not, the mechanic is simply not the same.
In Dating Sim, the gameplay is comparable to what you can guess from its name: you actually select a girl and depending of your actions, you gain or loses affection (it is purely a stats system).

In a usual romance focused Visual Novel, you are actually choosing the characters actions, and some of them are the so called "flags" that allow you to enter in the said girl (or character) route. Past a point, you are in her route and depending of the VN, the romance is built immediately or way afterwards.
The difference stems on the fact that you are actually choosing the action depending of the said situation, while in a Dating Sim, you are purely trying to please the said girl to hook with.
Of course, in these kind of VN, you do choose the girl you are aiming for, but most of the time, the actions taken are here to "help" or "advence" in the plot, not trying to hook with the said girl. Logically, you have NOTHING to do so the said girl fall in love with the protagonist.

For example: in clannad, there is a 2 chances-only flag for Kotomi (meeting her in the library), which is purely not related to gain affection or whatsoever. In a dating sim however, you would actually try actions that would raise your love meter, that is.

That is to say, I'm not denying the fact that some VN are really close to dating sim when you are actually making some "datin sim"-like choices to get in a girl route. That is actually the "non dating sim" ren'ai that Dgreater1 was referring to.

[velvet]

I see. I remember Tokimeki now.
From my PoV, the choices available in CLANNAD just did not strike me as something that is pleasing/appealing to your [aim/target].
A good example you raised here. We consider the dating sim's flag as stats (in my prev post I refer to this as relationship level). Can't seem to find the right words for CLANNAD's flags.

[Ithekro]

Sort of like Clannad is a Visual Novel disguised to look like a dating sim for sales, yet is not a dating sim at all.

Sort of like how Kanon has ero-material to disguise it is a plot based visual novel to get more sales.

[Tyabann]

A lot of the better games out there (Chaos;HEAd, anything Type-Moon makes, this) disguise themselves as dating sims in order to sell copies.

It's just something they have to do to please the otaku market, though I'd love to see an unabashed "THIS IS NOT A DATING GAME" visual novel actually do really well.

[Bullet2k4]

Whats the reason for showing a sad ending then a happy ending?Just to give you an idea how things would be with or without Nagisa?

[Klashikari]

The good end would have never happened without the bad end. The series hinted from a good while about the supernatural element and how the "bad end" started everything.
See the Clannad ending thread.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by Bullet2k4

Whats the reason for showing a sad ending then a happy ending?Just to give you an idea how things would be with or without Nagisa?

Originally Posted by Klashikari

The good end would have never happened without the bad end. The series hinted from a good while about the supernatural element and how the "bad end" started everything.
See the Clannad ending thread.

To further this statement, the bad end coincides with the good end. It's not really so much that they're showing you how it would have went, but rather how miracles happen. In the recap episode, Tomoya said how he felt that all the tragic events happened long ago and this kind of points to how he achieved his happiness. Tomoya's willingness to help others gave him the opportunity to change his fate as long as he didn't regret meeting Nagisa, at least this is how I view things.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by velvet

Just curious, what did we get for TA's genre in getchu?
Is there any game that Getchu classify as Visual Novel?

On Getchu, you are not going to find a category that says 'visual novel'. In fact, it is a term that is hardly used these days. While we in the forum may still apply the term casually, the retailers in Japan don't.

As for TA, interestingly enough, it is not categorized, but this is probably due to the fact that the game is no longer produced.

- Tak

[Jeiku]

Out of curiosity, have episodes 23 and 24 of Clannad After Story ever been broadcast in widescreen? It's been nearly half a month since the widescreen version ended its run, and I haven't seen any fansubs pop up for them yet.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by Jeiku

Out of curiosity, have episodes 23 and 24 of Clannad After Story ever been broadcast in widescreen? It's been nearly half a month since the widescreen version ended its run, and I haven't seen any fansubs pop up for them yet.

I don't think those torrents have been released yet since I'm waiting for it as well. The last WS Clannad: After Story was episode 22 I believe.

[xShirayuki]

Umm. Just a question about the game...

How do you unlock After Story?

I have completed all the routes, in the order Misae > Tomoyo > Yukine > Ryou > Kyou > Kappei > Mei & Youhei > Kotomi > Fuuko > Koumura > Nagisa. But, only 6 lights are appearing in my menu screen and After Story isn't unlocked. So, I'm hoping I didn't miss anything because I already redid Ryou, Kyou, Fuuko, Koumura and Nagisa and I don't really want to waste my time redoing everything else. Any idea why this happens?