Madoka Magica - Episode 09 Discussion / Poll

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Solace

According to Kyubey, they are. I have found it odd that he contradicts himself sometimes. He tells Madoka that her powers would be so great as to warp reality itself. When she asks if Sayaka could be saved, he says that he couldn't do it, but she could. He tells Kyouko that Magical Girls surpass all reason. In this aspect he is correct, the powers of all the girls defy the laws of reality. If he isn't lying about the entropy story, he's admitting that the energy from the souls of Magical Girls bypass the laws of thermodynamics.

Basically he's saying that Magical Girls are an impossibility, and yet, here they are. This contradicts him telling Homura that it was impossible to save Sayaka. He also admits that he isn't all powerful by telling Madoka he couldn't save her either. So the question is how is he so certain about impossible things when he also admits that Magical Girls and their Souls are impossible existences of reality?

Kyubey said that Puella Magi defy reason, not reality. According to him, only Madoka has that power.

If Kyubey claims that Soul Gems and Griefs Seeds produce energy from emotions, then it makes sense that their very existence defies reason. If Kyubey is emotionless, his understanding of emotions is limited.

The fact that Kyubey isn't omnipotent calls into question why he's so certain about impossibilities, and because his credibility on impossibilities is uncertain, Kyoko can take what Kyubey's words to mean that she is free to come up with a brand new method to save Sayaka.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by taofd

Either way he wins. He doesn't actually know if it's possible, but at the same time, it seems anything is possible with logic defying magic. He'll introduce the idea, let Kyoko try it. If she succeeds, then he wins, if she doesn't, well Madoka will still become a Mahou Shoujo, so he wins in that scenario as well.

Exactly. The Xanatos Gambit at work.

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

Yes and also remove the excuse "we don't have emotions so we have to use you", Undoing what has been done and/or destroying the system may be beyond the power of a wish but not beyond Madoka's power if Kyubei is not lying. One possible ending i'm expecting is for her to expend nearly all her power to do that and end herself ala Kyoko.

Madoka's mom's words on doing the right thing is not always right still resounds as something important to the finale, especially if it is a time loop effect

Homura has the death flag at the moment, since we don't know what will happen with Madoka. It is possible that Homura has been jumping through time over and over to find the solution to the no win scenario. In the Kobayashi example, Kirk took the test three times before he took the Third Option.

Originally Posted by ninryu

I thought of that Witch's Poem: "nine is one" - there's only one Mahou Shoujo left in this episode; "Ten is none" - could Homrun die next episode?

Did I already say how Madoka's seyuu deserve an Oscar for her voice acting?

I doubt Homura will die next episode. Ten is none (if it follows the poem) probably references that even though she is the only one left, she may as well not be a Magical Girl because she cannot defeat the Walpurgis witch by herself.

I think all the voice acting was really well done, there's a wide range of emotion and subtleties that really bring the characters to life.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Kyubey said that Puella Magi defy reason, not reality. According to him, only Madoka has that power.

If Kyubey claims that Soul Gems and Griefs Seeds produce energy from emotions, then it makes sense that their very existence defies reason. If Kyubey is emotionless, his understanding of emotions is limited.

The fact that Kyubey isn't omnipotent calls into question why he's so certain about impossibilities, and because his credibility on impossibilities is uncertain, Kyoko can take what Kyubey's words to mean that she is free to come up with a brand new method to save Sayaka.

Defying reason in that context means defying reality. What I mean is that people don't normally stop time, unleash an arsenal of guns from under their skirt, or summon giant flaming spears. Stopping time could be possible but the point is that Magical Girls can do things that humans normally cannot by using the "magic" in their soul. They make the impossible possible.

Even if Kyouko's failure supports Kyubey's confirmation bias (was it possible? obviously not, so it must be impossible), that doesn't mean that she was wrong and he was right. It may be that she failed because her approach was not the correct one. If he truly is a being of no emotion who considers information from a purely logical, utilitarian standpoint, his certainty of what is possible and impossible hardly feels scientific.

To be honest, he doesn't feel any more or less advanced than the humans he's making miserable.

[jeroz]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

The fact that Kyubey isn't omnipotent calls into question why he's so certain about impossibilities, and because his credibility on impossibilities is uncertain, Kyoko can take what Kyubey's words to mean that she is free to come up with a brand new method to save Sayaka.

Statistics. Fun tool.

I love/hate how Kyubey is able to generate false hope by keeping silent on some aspects.

[guuchan]

Originally Posted by Crontica

Wow.. Anyway the ED says it all. You guys are so hung up on trying to defend Kyubei that you're not even trying anymore. Moving onward to the Homura camp.

Amen.

I give up, really. I give up on admiring the story and instead, I will admire a certain character, namely Homura. This episode tries so hard to make her look cool so fine, I will buy it. But please, for anime god's sake, don't let Homura turn out to be Madoka's mom/baby-sister/daughter (I had this wild idea suddenly last night that she could be Madoka's future daughter). Please no. Pull all the KnM you want, Urobuchi, but please spare me from family love here.

Even though I didn't mention in last episode's thread, those men's conversation on the train already felt very unnatural and forced, feeling like just to be there to push Sayaka over the edge in the fastest possible way. This episode... I'm not going to comment on how a show of carefully written script so far has suddenly turned into self-contradictive in multiple places, I'm not going to comment on the fact that I have no idea anymore whose words I should take, I'm not going to comment on how moronic it is that Kyuubee would even think he could defend himself in front of Madoka with that story of his. I give up.

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

@guuchan

i'm with you. i don't want familial love bet. them. i want yuri!! LOL. anyway, i still love the story..XDD

[sa547]

My decision as to whether I should keep on watching? I'd say it's more of a test of a viewer's character, an intense examination of different forms of ethics between worlds, a morality play couched in the disguise of a cute show, and I want to see where this show will be leading us to, wondering if it might replicate the feat done by a certain 26-episode psychological thriller back in 1996.

So far, I'm enjoying the ride, and I'm spending considerable amount of time reading the threads here.

I'm keeping this, and I'm a sucker for iconoclasts and multi-faceted characters.

[Cosmic Eagle]

The last lines to Sayaka before she took them both out.....Kyoko never looked more lovely....At least those two are together now and won't be lonely anymore.

Also I'm strongly beginning to suspect that the true reason for Kyuubei's existence is so people can strangle him over and over....

And his heat death of the universe story has a giant gaping hole in it....the heat death doesn't work like that....I don't know if this is due to psuedo-inaccurate science or because he's flat out lying again...

Originally Posted by guuchan

Amen.

I'm not going to comment on how moronic it is that Kyuubee would even think he could defend himself in front of Madoka with that story of his. I give up.

He's not really defending himself...if anything I get the feeling he's mocking her.....

and why would he need to defend himself when he's basically slowly driving her against a dead end?

[Demon Eyes]

I am so looking forward to Magi Madoka summoning all infinite QB's and obliterating their existence.

Ah! Good times!

So the little furry said that huge amounts of energy is released when the transformation into witches occurs, right? Is it condensed into the grief seed or is it released right there and then when the soul gem shatters?

And if it is the latter, then when Magi Madoka, a Magi powerful enough to be a God turns into a a Death God after releasing that energy QB needs (the universe needs? Yeah right!), then what?

QB leaves since the universe is saved but what about us Humanity? Who is gonna save us from Darth Madoka?

Unless Magi Madoka does something before she turns into a witch, basically, ladies and gentlemen....

Are we fucked or what?!

I guess it is time to give up on this reality as well good Citizen Homura!

Spoiler for Zetsubou:

Also, am I the only one (Not counting HomuHomu of course) who totally loved Madoka's character through and through from the first second of the show?

To put it bluntly, Madoka seemed way out of place in this show even more than HomuHomu. Others hated her for her uselessness but to me she was the most useful and most intact character so far!

I see little to no bad points in her.

Oh wel...

[ednaeleva]

I'm sensing a kind of "reset" finale, like the first arc of Sailor Moon, I don't remember if it's in the manga or the anime, but at the end everything and everyone is dead, she's about to die 'cause she used all her power to defeat the evil queen, and someone is trying to grant her a wish, so she wishes a world where she and her friends don't have to fight again, she doesn't want to be a mahou shoujo anymore, so everything returns at the beginning, the girls doesn't know each other but Luna is still there.
So, if Modoka whishes start everything once more Kyubey is going to be there...

[Seihai]

Originally Posted by Demon Eyes

Also, am I the only one (Not counting HomuHomu of course) who totally loved Madoka's character through and through from the first second of the show?

To put it bluntly, Madoka seemed way out of place in this show even more than HomuHomu. Others hated her for her uselessness but to me she was the most useful and most intact character so far!

I see little to no bad points in her.

Oh wel...

I also like Madoka's character a lot. I'd say for the same reasons as yours, too. Though if it's an intact character it's gotta be him, yeah... Kyubei. And I still prefer Homura over Madoka but that's just opinion stuff.

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Of course, there is a good chance the "dark vision" is merely QB's invention and entirely false. We only have his word for it, and what good is his word, really?

No, I think the idea that everything has a price, that good must be balanced by evil, that nothing is got for nothing, is not at all QB's invention. It reflects a philosophy we are all familiar with, and represents the anime's point of view. The girls themselves articulate it; and the narrative follows the course in which neophytes such as Sayaka and Madoka learn its tenets.

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

He convinces them by forming a contract with him they'll be given a wish to help out the ones they care for.

Yes. But they have these wishes independently of QB, and would presumably want to realize them however they can. QB or a genii in a bottle, whatever works is fine.

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

From my understanding the wish itself causes the imbalance which happens unnaturally so its is corrected by bringing an terrible fate upon the wisher to counteract the wish. You basically can't get free miracles someone has to pay for it. I don't think they were saying that doing a good deed means a bad one will occur because of it.

A good, interesting argument. But I think what counts as natural is precisely the fact that there are no free lunches, and this is true in every case, and not only in respect to the subset of miracles. Kyoko's family pays the price of Kyoko's miracle much more than she does, and they have made no contract. Let's see what happens to Kyosuke. When Mami, Kyoko, and Homura discuss these issues, they express themselves in general language, and articulate a philosophy of life, rather than the technical specifications limited to mahou shoujo thaumaturgy.

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

QB is not a triviality because he's the one who offers these things knowing fully what will happen in the end. He has to take moral responsibility not some abstract conception of good and evil. Then all the tyrants could blame it on the all the saints of the world for causing them to do what evil they did.

To the extent QB is morally responsible the girls are not, and the anime is in that measure less interesting. Pardon me, but QB as the villain amounts to a cop-out. He is _a_ villain no doubt, but as such is a mirror to the moral consequences of the girls' own choices.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

To the extent QB is morally responsible the girls are not, and the anime is in that measure less interesting. Pardon me, but QB as the villain amounts to a cop-out. He is _a_ villain no doubt, but as such is a mirror to the moral consequences of the girls' own choices.

Whether it's interesting to you or not, from the moment Madoka declared Incubator the enemy for being unable to care for individual life, he became the antagonist. This is the core issue from now on I think. If you think about it, Madoka's values reflect on Homura too: from these girls' perspective (Madoka, Homura, and even Kyoko) it's not about saving the world (or the universe), it's about saving those you love. Those values contradict directly with Incubator's, who doesn't care about individual life and just see the big picture. This conflict's what the climax is about.

This is not a tragedy. In fact, I doubt it ever was.

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Whether it's interesting to you or not, from the moment Madoka declared Incubator the enemy for being unable to care for individual life, he became the antagonist. This is the core issue from now on I think. If you think about it, Madoka's values reflect on Homura too: for these girls perspective (Madoka, Homura, and even Kyoko) it's not about saving the world (or the universe), it's about saving those you love. Those values contradict directly with Incubator's, who doesn't care about individual life and just see the big picture. This conflict's what the climax is about.

This is not a tragedy. In fact, I doubt it ever was.

If this was a conventional magical girl show, you would be right. But what is really unusual about Madoka Magica is that it has systematically called into question all the assumptions of the genre. So I don't think the show will give us the conventional ending in which Madoka will manage to save all those she loves. So far, the evidence is totally to the contrary, what with the shocking death of Mami, Sayaka's horrific transformation and execution, and Kyoko's de facto suicide. Hadoka and Homura want to save those they love, and have failed at every point.

If this is not tragic, what is?

I don't think of QB as "the antagonist:" he and the girls have almost no common ground on which to carry out a dispute.

Still, you and I are fortunate in that we will find out which of us is right. If the narrative amounts to a conflict between QB and the MSs, we will see a denouement in which the girls defeat QB, or not, and gain a happy ending, or not. In that case I'll cheerfully admit you were right.

I have no idea how the show will conclude--we are so far outside of genre expectations I am completely at sea. What a great show.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

If this was a conventional magical girl show, you would be right. But what is really unusual about Madoka Magica is that it has systematically called into question all the assumptions of the genre.

I don't care about genre conventions; I'm just fallowing plot development. If the conflict of values between Madoka and Incubator wasn't to be addressed by the narrative, it shouldn't have been brought up to begin with. Not now right before the climax.

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

If this is not tragic, what is?

If Incubator was really just a plot device, this would be a tragedy (in the narrative sense), but that's not the case. Incubator is an acting characters because he has stakes on the matter, and he's the antagonist because his values are directly in opposition to those of the protagonist. How is this going to play out, I don't know. Oh, this is drama btw, not tragedy.

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

Still, you and I are fortunate in that we will find out which of us is right. If the narrative amounts to a conflict between QB and the MSs, we will see a denouement in which the girls defeat QB, or not, and gain a happy ending, or not. In that case I'll cheerfully admit you were right.

I suppose we can agree on this.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

This is not a tragedy. In fact, I doubt it ever was.

Well, perhaps in the broadest sense of the term, there is tragedy here.

But it isn't a Greek tragedy any more, imo.

In a Greek tragedy, a character is undone by a personal failing, acting out of its own accord. The tragedy of a Greek tragedy is that the character is his or her own worst enemy.

However, a key part of Kyubey's plan all along was to dupe Sayaka and have events play out in such a way that she'd descend into a witch. Sayaka never in her wildest dreams (or nightmares) thought that Kyubey intended to use her becoming a witch to fight universal entropy. So Sayaka was simply victimized by Kyubey, in my opinion. Sure, her personal failings contributed to her fall, but free of Kyubey's intentional deceptiveness and meddling, Sayaka would have been fine.

Kyoko was likewise manipulated and victimized by Kyubey.

[Candyshark]

I'm going numb from all this depression and grim mood of the anime. If they start to cut Madoka with rusty knife i would not care. Shinbou/Gen take the tension from the series away.

Sayaka disapointed me with that move so acompony Sayaka is better oprion than support Homura through Walpurgisnacht. I hoped she had more backbone. Fighting against all odds doesn't seem as an inspiring virtue, hmm? Defeatism last thing i excpected from her. It is heart-wrecking how torn apart girls are and whither away in the loneliness.

And on an isuue of QB killing for peace still makes you murderer.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, perhaps in the broadest sense of the term, there is tragedy here.

Yes, there's some tragedy elements no doubt. I agree with the rest of the post too.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Yes, there's some tragedy elements no doubt. I agree with the rest of the post too.

Why all this talk about tragedy? Despite the fact that Kyoko "died" (didn't see her body, so... still hopin') last episode, I feel this was the most uplifting episode yet. Our wavering girl Madoka is finding her resolution, Kyoko has passed the torch to Madoka, and there have been hints that there is a "3rd" solution as the posts above me have mentioned.

Why must it end as a tragedy? At this point, there can be a good end, and STILL have it taste like an Urobuchi plum (bitter-sweetness).

Originally Posted by Candyshark

I'm going numb from all this depression and grim mood of the anime. If they start to cut Madoka with rusty knife i would not care. Shinbou/Gen take the tension from the series away.

Sayaka disapointed me with that move so acompony Sayaka is better oprion than support Homura through Walpurgisnacht. I hoped she had more backbone. Fighting against all odds doesn't seem as an inspiring virtue, hmm? Defeatism last thing i excpected from her. It is heart-wrecking how torn apart girls are and whither away in the loneliness.

And on an isuue of QB killing for peace still makes you murderer.

Yes... GIVE into the dark side and your [Soul Gem's] corruption will be complete!

Originally Posted by Candyshark

I'm going numb from all this depression and grim mood of the anime. If they start to cut Madoka with rusty knife i would not care. Shinbou/Gen take the tension from the series away.

Sayaka disappointed me with that move so accompany Sayaka is better opinion than support Homura through Walpurgisnacht. I hoped she had more backbone. Fighting against all odds doesn't seem as an inspiring virtue, hmm? Defeatism last thing i expected from her. It is heart-wrecking how torn apart girls are and whither away in the loneliness.

And on an isuue of QB killing for peace still makes you murderer.

I think people should approach QB's situation similar to that of the infamous (and not true) Churchill Dilemma.

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I don't care about genre conventions; I'm just fallowing plot development. If the conflict of values between Madoka and Incubator wasn't to be addressed by the narrative, it shouldn't have been brought up to begin with. Not now right before the climax.

But the writers of the show do care about genre expectations, and part of the way in which they construct the narrative (the plot development that you do care about) is to make a point about genre conventions. For example, to discover that QB is a villain is shocking, not just because the viewer has followed the narrative to this point and is surprised, but because the viewer has watched Sailor Moon, Card Captor Sakura, etc and has learned to expect that the cute creature is always the heroine's best buddy. It's the upsetting of genre expectations that makes this show so mind-blowing. I am amazed you don't care about that.

You make a nice contrast between the girls' desire to save particular individuals, the ones they love, and QB's abstract goal of saving the universe in general. But does this really represent "a conflict of values between Madoka and Incubator?"

Is there really a conflict? Don't MSs want to save the world? I seem to recall that was part of both Sayaka and Kyoko's motivations for becoming magical girls. And QB is willing--for a dreadful price--to save any particular individual the girls happen to love. So where's the conflict?

Yes, Madoka does identify QB as an enemy, because his willingness to sacrifice individuals for his conception of the greater good conflicts with her moral idealism. But the real question is whether Madoka's idealism fits with the world as it really is. The conflict here lies not between values, but between the moral idealism that characterizes the magical girl genre, and the real world.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

If Incubator was really just a plot device, this would be a tragedy (in the narrative sense), but that's not the case. Incubator is an acting characters because he has stakes on the matter, and he's the antagonist because his values are directly in opposition to those of the protagonist. How is this going to play out, I don't know. Oh, this is drama btw, not tragedy.

None of this makes sense to me, but that doesn't matter. If it is really QB's fault that Madoka (and Sayaka and Kyoko's) naive idealism doesn't work, then he really is the antagonist, as you say: he can then be beaten, and we can have a happy ending. Look, Ma! no tragedy! But if the idealism doesn't work because that's the way the world is, and the point of the narrative is for the naive girl to be disillusioned, and thereby to gain an adult apprehension of the world as it is, then--no matter what ending we get, even one in which QB is shoved out of the picture somehow--QB is not the antagonist, the world is essentially a tragic place, and tragedy is only resolved by the device of growing up, and bearing the pain and suffering as the inevitable weight of adulthood.

My money is on the latter sort of ending. Madoka will grow up.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

No, I think the idea that everything has a price, that good must be balanced by evil, that nothing is got for nothing, is not at all QB's invention. It reflects a philosophy we are all familiar with, and represents the anime's point of view. The girls themselves articulate it; and the narrative follows the course in which neophytes such as Sayaka and Madoka learn its tenets.

No, good is not balanced by evil here. It's just evil (QB) disguising itself as being good, and tricking young girls to their deaths.

You are treating QB like he is somehow not responsible for his own actions. Well, I say QB and his people can get stuffed. If there is a problem of heat death, humans will solve it ourselves.

QB is getting what he wants, for nothing. Where is his price to pay?