Macross Frontier - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll [END]

[Ithekro]

So then the question goes...what will be the next Macross they focus on. Will it be a serious show on fighters and combat, the ever present love triangles, a male or female idol singer, or a band? Will it be sillier?

[Saber024]

got confused.

who's picture was Birle's looking at? Ranka's mom or Minmei?

[magnuskn]

The latter.

[magnuskn]

I am putting my response to Ozuma-Rii from the movie thread here, because it is germane to the series, not the movie:

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

Aha! Gotcha on my turf, magnuskn!
Again with the episode 21!

I think you have a deep misunderstanding as a newcomer whose "turf" you are on.

Only because we veterans don't have much to say these days, because we a.) won and b.) already said it all ten times over, doesn't mean that we don't have an opinion. One honed in a thousand arguments with Ranka shippers.

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

I would like you to review Ranka's character. Do you know that she left to protect frontier? Do you know that she was responsible for both races, the Vajura and the Humans's survival? Heck, if I wereher, I would make th same decisions.

She ran away, because she couldn't deal with Alto preferring Sheryl and because she couldn't deal with the responsibility thrust upon her. She left on a fools errand, a suicide mission with a high chance of killing her and leaving her home unprotected. If things hadn't come together perfectly at the end, she would have been the catalyst of Graces galactic domination. Great job, Ranka, great job.

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

Note that in episode 21, she left on part that she could communicate with the vajura, and that she was also a human, making her the bridge between humanity and the vajura. If you are the hybrid of both race, and you see both races at war because of misunderstanding,would you just leave one race to die? You forget, I say, the importance and gravity of this question on the 16 year old ranka. The fact that she made the decision to attempt to save the frontier and the vajura by doing so is the turning point of her character development, showing how she was maturing and that she was no longer the kid that threw pans at her brother for something stupid. She was willing to forsake herself being with Alto to protect frontier. And, don't go all SDF over me.

Even if we go by your characterization of her ultimate decision to leave Frontier ( and I'd say there are very good grounds to contest it, especially on the topic of how Alto played into her motivations ), it still was a stupid decision. She was running off on a guess and leaving her whole home, her family, her friends to deal with the consequences. She did not have the information that Luca had developed a new countermeasure to block the Vajra communication, that he had developed new weapons to deal with them. She did not know that Sheryl would develop the same song capabilities that she had, due to her illness reaching the terminal stage. For all that Ranka knew, she left Frontier completely helpless. What a great character development!

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

While Ranka grew. Kawamori did the right decision from square one, but because of fan pressure he had to change it. The fans did not understand how this made her grow. Whereas, Sheryl, whom they view to have not betrayed humanity, "takes the center stage" for two episodes.

Uh, and your sources on Kawamoris decision process are?

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

In further episodes, you would find that it is not that Ranka made bad decisions, it is that she was being human. She still suffers emotional trauma, she still is being controlled by Grace. She is not some Mary-sue Messiah like character where she will always make the right choices. So of the "choices" you perceive to be are Grace's coerceing and exploiting of Ranka's emotional weakness. So, there.

No hard feelings, guys.

She continually makes wrong decisions on an emotional whim. She shows little loyalty to her home. She expects to be saved all the time. Sorry, that is a weak character. If you like to think that being continually wrong makes her somehow more likeable, that's your choice. I prefer characters who show some backbone and do the right thing, which is why Alto is my favorite male character. He always tried to do the right thing, even if he did not have all the correct information at times, and thus ended up helping the villains further their plans.

Sheryl was given the option to prolong her life multiple times, but always chose to put the well-being of others before her own. That is an admirable trait, one which is not purely ficticious, but can be observed by different people throughout human history.

[Ozuma-Rii]

Heh...
If only I could debate better against you, but I shall go get some advice from my seniors.
From my perspective it is...

Your point : fool's errand
My point : She was with Brera. Brera Sterne. The godmode Kira Yamato of the series. An Android. The best fighter in the whole story. If I were Ranka I'd go too, knowing I am in safe hands.

Your point: Kawamori's thought process
I' apologize for that...
Baseless argument on my part, maybe I was high on drugs :P

May I find some other time to reply? It is taxing to type on my phone...

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

Heh...
If only I could debate better against you, but I shall go get some advice from my seniors.
From my perspective it is...

Your point : fool's errand
My point : She was with Brera. Brera Sterne. The godmode Kira Yamato of the series. An Android. The best fighter in the whole story. If I were Ranka I'd go too, knowing I am in safe hands.

Funnily enough, in the Macross universe, combat is a group sport. If you go up against masses of enemies, normally you want to do it in a team.

Ranka could have no reasonable expectations of immortality due to Brera being really good. She was going up against a planet full of Vajra.

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

Your point: Kawamori's thought process
I' apologize for that...
Baseless argument on my part, maybe I was high on drugs :P

May I find some other time to reply? It is taxing to type on my phone...

Sure.

[Ozuma-Rii]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Funnily enough, in the Macross universe, combat is a group sport. If you go up against masses of enemies, normally you want to do it in a team.

Ranka could have no reasonable expectations of immortality due to Brera being really good. She was going up against a planet full of Vajra.

Er... my point is... have you seen how many times one fighter has been able to go against don't-know-how-many-with-impossible-odds but succeeded? Macross evidenced it more than once, I forgot where the exact citations are, though. And Brera was doing well until Grace showed up in her VF-27. I am sure Brera is not the irrational type, and as impulsive as the others.

Second: I am sure we all know that Ranka was singing at that point of time, thus acting as a EMC. She was effectively confusing the Vajura while she was flying towards the planet. Blame damned Grace, I guess?

And, to quote...

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I am putting my response to Ozuma-Rii from the movie thread here, because it is germane to the series, not the movie:



I think you have a deep misunderstanding as a newcomer whose "turf" you are on.

My bad. I am used to by debate style in the school debate club, I am sorry for that!
"Got you now, on my turf!"
Yep, I frequently say that in debates. If they are not the national debate variety.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Only because we veterans don't have much to say these days, because we a.) won and b.) already said it all ten times over, doesn't mean that we don't have an opinion. One honed in a thousand arguments with Ranka shippers.

I do not fear the experienced. Just saying.
Doesn't mean I do not respect the experienced, though. *Respects*
No, I mean it. Seriously. Perhaps, if you were to perceive it as sarcasm, please allow me to clear the air.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

She ran away, because she couldn't deal with Alto preferring Sheryl and because she couldn't deal with the responsibility thrust upon her. She left on a fools errand, a suicide mission with a high chance of killing her and leaving her home unprotected. If things hadn't come together perfectly at the end, she would have been the catalyst of Graces galactic domination. Great job, Ranka, great job.

Last straw. Ranka in no way as evidenced in the anime at that point of time not be able to deal with Alto's "preferences". In fact, she took it cool and was still able to ask Alto out before she went off to end the war.
Fact is, in your next quote, you are using the basis of that nobody knows what would happen next, and that Ranka is guilty because of not having foreseen the possible consequences. I also want to use the benefit of Ranka not knowing that Grace was the real enemy here too.
She did do a good job, stepping out of her lack of confidence and finally making a choice for someone else. She has been the one to ask for things from others most of the early series, being the child she is, but she grew up in the span of the series and made a choice that in her view helped everyone. There. Justified.

But I will admit to you saying that Ranka was not able to shoulder the responsibility. However, she chose to shoulder it another way. In her own way.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Even if we go by your characterization of her ultimate decision to leave Frontier ( and I'd say there are very good grounds to contest it, especially on the topic of how Alto played into her motivations ), it still was a stupid decision. She was running off on a guess and leaving her whole home, her family, her friends to deal with the consequences. She did not have the information that Luca had developed a new countermeasure to block the Vajra communication, that he had developed new weapons to deal with them. She did not know that Sheryl would develop the same song capabilities that she had, due to her illness reaching the terminal stage. For all that Ranka knew, she left Frontier completely helpless. What a great character development!

She knew that for all she could, that she could be able to end it all by successfully nipping the flower in the bud. She knows that she has the abilities to stop the war. Your assumption is made on the basis that she was being irresponsible, which she was not. Since she was able to communicate with the Vajura, she decided to go and end it all, rather than stay at Frontier and cause more Vajura and people to die from the attacks. Besides, as evidenced when she was at the rooftop of the building in Episode 20, she was already emotionally unstable when it comes to killing the Vajura, and her songs only agitated the Vajura. In fact, it was better for her to leave Frontier to help Frontier by ending the war at the root cause. Not that I am saying Frontier doesn't need her.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

She continually makes wrong decisions on an emotional whim. She shows little loyalty to her home.

Her "little loyalty" is justified, being that she was part-Vajura too. Being that, she has to decide between Frontier and the Vajura--and her ultimate decision was both. Both were important to her, thus she left on her journey--to find a way to save both her home and what her relations held her to.

Er... Ranka... is... a... kid. Seriously. She is not a Mary-Sue. She learns and grows by the final episode.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

She expects to be saved all the time. Sorry, that is a weak character. If you like to think that being continually wrong makes her somehow more likeable, that's your choice. I prefer characters who show some backbone and do the right thing, which is why Alto is my favorite male character. He always tried to do the right thing, even if he did not have all the correct information at times, and thus ended up helping the villains further their plans.

Sheryl was given the option to prolong her life multiple times, but always chose to put the well-being of others before her own. That is an admirable trait, one which is not purely ficticious, but can be observed by different people throughout human history.

Ranka's trip was the counter to Sheryl's sacrifice. Both are risking life and death to save Frontier, except that Sheryl's sacrifice is obvious to the citizens, and Ranka... she sacrificed herself in the dark, which is also admirable. Except that it was risking, not visual sacrificing yet.

Her continuous wrong choices are not what makes her likable, it is what makes her human. I have not seen a human to date who does not act on emotional whims. And Ranka's wrong choices were justified with either lack of knowledge, or her being human. No human would be fine after a heartbreak, unless he or she is Mikhail.

No wait overrule the last point. Even Mikhail can feel sadness.

And her expecting to be saved? She did not know whether she needed saving until she did...

Anyways, I anticipate your counter to my point.
I justified all I could to the best of my ability based on the points I have, and with reference to some other Ranka debaters.

[LoveMeKags]

^
I have to say, Ozuma; I am impressed, you took the words out of my mouth.

[Ozuma-Rii]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

^
I have to say, Ozuma; I am impressed, you took the words out of my mouth.

Your complement means a lot to me
Thanks for affirming my debating.

After all, Ozma must help his little sister Ranka~

[magnuskn]

Oh, boy. I actually have an exam coming up on Friday 21st, one which is very important. As such, please consider that I am taking time away from that to discuss Macross Frontier minutae. I won't keep that up, because I can't risk my future because of old BS like this.

That being said, here's a timeline of important events regarding Ranka, extrapolated from watching the relevant parts of the episodes right now. I find those events are crucial in understanding what Rankas inner motivations were, often opposed to her stated motivations:

- Episodes 12-14: Ranka gets abducted by Vajra, yells a lot "Save me Alto-kun!", has an important encounter with a Vajra queen where she learns that the Vajra queen can communicate with her and show human illusions... and forgets to tell anyone else about that. The only explanation I have ever found which does not assume overwhelming stupidity on Rankas part is her disassociative amnesia. It was never really spelled out on the show, however.
- Episode 16: Ranka lets herself get bulldozed over by Graces management, changing up her songs. She agrees to use her music to protect Frontier against the Vajra.
- Episode 17: Ranka manages to completely torpedoe her chances at a relationship with Alto by behaving like a pre-teen kid. Alto obliges by totally treating her as such. She is shown as being insecure about her commitment to using her music against the Vajra.
- Episode 18: Ranka helps the fleet escape a big Vajra attack, stating clearly that by her own will she wants to protect the fleet.
- Episode 19: Ranka decides that, no, she actually doesn't really want to sing for her home, but only for Alto. Misinterprets Altos flying team making a heart as a personal love declaration from Alto.
- Episode 20: Ranka flips her shit about Sheryl and Alto having a moment and nearly destroys Frontier by exciting the swarms of Vajra larvaes which had hidden themselves in the sublevels. Can't control her negative emotions to calm the Vajra, can't work up any show of friendship when her best friend gets severely hurt right before her eyes, gets Michael ( and thousands of other people ) killed.
- Episode 21: She finally manages to get herself enough under control the bring the Vajra towards her and get Frontier saved. Then ditches her responsibility for protecting Frontier and flees the fleet, after entreating Alto to throw his live away on a mission which, to the best of his knowledge, would be a complete suicide mission. Because, hey, Ranka just demonstrated in the last episodes that she can not always make the Vajra love her. Nope, she runs off with Altos biggest rival and leaves the fleet in a ditch.
- Episode 22: Feels Sheryl and Alto making love. ^^
- Episode 23: Gets to Planet Vajra and, thankfully for her, contact works out. Until it doesn't and she gets abducted by the Vajra. Hey, I wonder what would have happened to Alto at this point, with him not being the super haxx cyber ninja that Brera is? Or even Brera, if godmode Grace would not have shown up. Well, anyway. Ranka also states that she wants to persuade the Vajra to make peace with Frontier, which at least gives her a better outward motivation than what she stated to Alto, about just wanting to take Ai-kun back to his family.
- Episode 24: Ranka gets super-easily turned toward evil purposes by Grace screwing with her mind and begins using her powers against her home.
- Episode 25: Things perfectly fall into place for Ranka to allow her to return home and not be hung from the highest tree as a traitor. She also saves Sheryl's life, redeeming herself somewhat. She then petulantly refuses to be graceful and not pursue Alto anymore, wasting that redemption. Le sigh.


I now could give a point-by-point rebuttal to your post, but that will lead to more time-consuming nitty-gritty, and I'd like more to establish some fundamentals here about how I believe Rankas motivations were constituted.

So, to summarize, three main motivations seem to have guided her actions.

1.) Her stated intention of making peace between humans and Vajra. Not much to elaborate on that point, although I think that you are overstating her connection to the Vajra. At the point she made the decision to leave Frontier, she only knew that they responded to her. And not always positively. Direct communication on the "talking" level still was waaaay beyond Rankas means. Making her mission one taken on a hunch, with extremely low survival odds.
2.) Putting some distance between herself and Alto. She very obviously believed that Alto had chosen Sheryl, which resulted in her emotional breakdown. Which was Rankas own damned fault for a.) misinterpreting the relatively benign "embrace" on that rooftop and b.) suddenly focusing all of her own motivations on wanting a romance with Alto.
3.) Getting away from the responsibility of protecting Frontier. She said it herself. Multiple times. She could not deal with the pressure anymore.

So, basically Ranka convinced herself that, yeah, 100% surely the Vajra would totally welcome her and not kill her when she'd suddenly would show up at their home planet. Grantedly, that would have worked out, but the basis on which she took that decision was pulled right out of her ass. Factual evidence, as seen in the episodes just prior, showed that she could not be 100% sure that everything would work out. I'd personally say it was a total crapshoot. That things fell into place for her was not assured (realistically seen, of course in storytelling terms things were pretty much guaranteed to).

And, unless someone can present me actual evidence from the show to the contrary, Ranka totally left Frontier in a ditch. I repeat from my last post: She had no evidence that Luca had built better communication countermeasures, no evidence that the new munitions were available to Frontiers pilots, no evidence that Sheryl would suddenly develop singing powers equal to her own. She left people to their deaths and just hoped that her suicidal mission would work out.

Ranka is immature, true. But she must also be monumentally stupid to not ascribe her motives of maliciousness or at least severe neglect in how she treated her own responsibilities to her home, friends and family. And that is the kindest thing I can say about her in that regard, which is truly sad.

[Darthtabby]

I think Ranka's feelings for Alto actually became a negative influence on her later in the series. Early on they helped her come out of her shell. But later on she let what Alto thought take precedence over her own judgement. She had doubts about using her singing as a weapon against the Vajra, but agreed to do it as soon as Alto told her he thought it was a good thing. Then after agreeing to use her singing as a weapon against the Vajra she failed to do so when Frontier was under attack because she saw Alto hugging another girl.

I think letting go of Alto and moving on would have been a good thing for TV series Ranka.

As for Sheryl being a "static" character (as was claimed in the other thread), I think it's worth pointing out that her motivations changed drastically over the course of the series.

[Ozuma-Rii]

Maguskn, if you have an exam, then go for it, after all real life is more important...

Ok, I will rebut whatever I can right now on the top of my head with a handphone keyboard.

First, about the many "no evidences" that you were Ranka knew that she could be the ECM if she sung, so she She was also with, with your own words, "super haxx ninja Brera", thus it is effectively double assurance that they would succeed. She had no evidence that Grace would show up, no evidence that Grace knew what her song was doing and how to even control her, also, Ranka is shouldering all the responsibility for the Vajura and Frontier, which would escalate to the whole galaxy in due time, unmentioned. She realized she could not take the responsibility that frontier entrusted to her, that way, so she took on the responsibility another way, in her own way.

And the point about Ranka misinterpreting the embrace--at that point of time, she was about to confess to Alto. The immediate first impression of the embrace with someone else other than her. No sane person would go calmly and ask Alto "Hey, what happened?". It is also noted that Sheryl did not even bother to explain to Ranka, merely slapping her and telling her to be professional even when she was emotionally upset.

And about the point that she was easily brainwashed and Mind-controlled: I am going to stop it so hard that even if it were Brera, it will still never rise again.
Let me drive the point home: Ranka was being emotionally traumatized by Grace. She was shown her past. She was still in shock. She was being weighed down by a myriad of things . This allowed Grace to exploit her emotional weakness. Ranka was, I repeat, in no condition to fight back, seeing the "sins" committed and what her songs "did". She has no evidence as to what her songs did other than confuse, and perhaps calm the Vajura. She had no evidence to her past. As I know, humans have a self-protecting system that deals away emotional trauma that one cannot accept, causing selective amnesia. Thus, there is no position to argue that Ranka could have fought back against Grace, seeing that she is not the fighter type (I mean physically fighting) nor is she some sort of iron-willed Messiah, capable of laying down her emotional trauma like nobody's business.That is what makes Ranka human and relatable.

And, what do you mean by Ranka giving up Alto to be graceful.
I would already give her a medal of honor for actually going on a risky mission (actually it is not that crapshoot. You are talking about a ECM and the best pilot here). She already redeemed her mistake in episode 20, IF you consider it a mistake.
She has done all she possibly could. The part where you said that she forgot to tell everyone about the visions? Let's just say that you are putting a 16 year old with the personality of a 12 year old into a horror situation. The trauma is enough to put your point to rest.
And about the part about her changing songs--she doubted the new song to begin with, and only because she is still a "kid" and she still sought opinion and approval. With encouragement she naturally changed her song like an adult tells a child to do something.
There.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

Maguskn, if you have an exam, then go for it, after all real life is more important...

I just can't spend several hours rebutting stuff line by line, which is what normally happens with LMK posts, where she just deluges you with gigantic paragraphs.

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

First, about the many "no evidences" that you were Ranka knew that she could be the ECM if she sung, so she She was also with, with your own words, "super haxx ninja Brera", thus it is effectively double assurance that they would succeed. She had no evidence that Grace would show up, no evidence that Grace knew what her song was doing and how to even control her, also, Ranka is shouldering all the responsibility for the Vajura and Frontier, which would escalate to the whole galaxy in due time, unmentioned. She realized she could not take the responsibility that frontier entrusted to her, that way, so she took on the responsibility another way, in her own way.

So, you are saying "She knew that she would succeed". How? Are you seriously suggesting that she was so deluded that she thought Brera could take on a whole planet of Vajra? If you care to look again, he was forced to hide after being chased around by the crapton of Vajra coming for him after Ranka was in their hands and only was saved because Grace showed up. Alto, Rankas original choice for an escort, would have been chopped sushi at that point.

And, please, show me real evidence that Ranka knew that her song would work. I mean, real hard fact evidence from the show. Please remember that just two episodes before she was not able to control the Vajra and they wrecked Frontier, killing untold numbers of people. Consider that the best Ranka could do at the point she chose to leave Frontier was project emotions at the Vajra, because she just learned to "talk" to them in the very last episode.

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

And the point about Ranka misinterpreting the embrace--at that point of time, she was about to confess to Alto. The immediate first impression of the embrace with someone else other than her. No sane person would go calmly and ask Alto "Hey, what happened?". It is also noted that Sheryl did not even bother to explain to Ranka, merely slapping her and telling her to be professional even when she was emotionally upset.

Yeah, treating her like an adult person and telling her to control her emotions, like a true entertainer. Note that Alto didn't bother to tell her what was going on, either.

And, uh, many sane persons would actually go and ask. Or just quietly leave. Not saying that having an emotional episode is uncommon, but saying that "no sane person" would react otherwise? Please.

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

And about the point that she was easily brainwashed and Mind-controlled: I am going to stop it so hard that even if it were Brera, it will still never rise again.
Let me drive the point home: Ranka was being emotionally traumatized by Grace. She was shown her past. She was still in shock. She was being weighed down by a myriad of things . This allowed Grace to exploit her emotional weakness. Ranka was, I repeat, in no condition to fight back, seeing the "sins" committed and what her songs "did". She has no evidence as to what her songs did other than confuse, and perhaps calm the Vajura. She had no evidence to her past. As I know, humans have a self-protecting system that deals away emotional trauma that one cannot accept, causing selective amnesia. Thus, there is no position to argue that Ranka could have fought back against Grace, seeing that she is not the fighter type (I mean physically fighting) nor is she some sort of iron-willed Messiah, capable of laying down her emotional trauma like nobody's business.That is what makes Ranka human and relatable.

Wait, wait, wait. You are saying that every person has disassociative amnesia? That'd be new to me and, I guess, the thousands of people suffering from PTSD.

Furthermore, you are essentially confirming what I said about Ranka being weak-willed. Yeah, people made of sterner stuff would not broken so easily under Graces pretty obvious manipulation.

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

And, what do you mean by Ranka giving up Alto to be graceful.

Because she knew that she had lost when she left Frontier in ep 20. I guess Alto is at fault a bit for going with that "you are both my wings" line, although I found it pretty unromantic from the standpoint of the girls. Even if it were meant as romantic, which it wasn't.

Anyway, Ranka could have shown that she had actually grown up due to her experiences by stepping aside and accepting with grace that Sheryl and Alto were together. Like superior!Ranka in the movie did. But, nope, she has to issue a laughable final challenge to Sheryl.

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

I would already give her a medal of honor for actually going on a risky mission (actually it is not that crapshoot. You are talking about a ECM and the best pilot here). She already redeemed her mistake in episode 20, IF you consider it a mistake.
She has done all she possibly could. The part where you said that she forgot to tell everyone about the visions? Let's just say that you are putting a 16 year old with the personality of a 12 year old into a horror situation. The trauma is enough to put your point to rest.

No, no it damned isn't. The very next day she tries to doggy-jump Alto in the hospital. That's not exactly deep trauma she was exhibiting there.
Hell, she was interviewed multiple times just before that and she either didn't mention what happened or, and I am again pretty forgiving in even suggesting that, forgot it due to her disassociative amnesia.

And you cannot just discount the factual evidence from what actually happened on the show for your own dreamt up interpretation of things. Ranka leaving Frontier has huge problems in the narrative, because her stated reasons for leaving ranged from "idiotic" to "suicidal" ( and that is based on the facts the character was aware of at the moment of her departure ) and the unstated reasons reason was quite clearly about running away from her situation on Frontier.

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

And about the part about her changing songs--she doubted the new song to begin with, and only because she is still a "kid" and she still sought opinion and approval. With encouragement she naturally changed her song like an adult tells a child to do something.There.

Sheryl is one year older and makes her own decisions. Alto is one year older and makes his own decisions. I'm sorry if I expect her to behave on more or less the same level and not like a pre-teen kid who wants to push away all important decisions on her elders.

[Ozuma-Rii]

Hold it right there, that last sentence.
May I suggest looking through what Alto and Sheryl have been through compared to Ranka. You cannot really compare maturity with the other two cause the other two, one year older, have been through family breakups, and for Sheryl, a lot more.
Consider the fact that Ranka was heartbroken by the part in episode 20 when she was atop the rooftop. A normal sane person would, let me rephrase my point, but a heartbroken person would not, especially when there is a love rival involved.

I shall give you a better answer with fancy colours when I have my keyboard back. Until then!

I just received an avalanche of work, may not be able to rush out the essay today... I will be back!

[Ozuma-Rii]

May I know your point for bringing up the point that the Vajura could show illusions?
And I always thought the front part of every episode was included for comedic relief. And it was so segregated from the story, I did not notice. Ah well I will have to go through everything and give you a good answer.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

Hold it right there, that last sentence.
May I suggest looking through what Alto and Sheryl have been through compared to Ranka. You cannot really compare maturity with the other two cause the other two, one year older, have been through family breakups, and for Sheryl, a lot more.
Consider the fact that Ranka was heartbroken by the part in episode 20 when she was atop the rooftop. A normal sane person would, let me rephrase my point, but a heartbroken person would not, especially when there is a love rival involved.

Yeah, it's not as if Ranka had been through months of war by this point, too and had coped pretty well with that most of the time. I forgot how they stuffed her in locker and just let her out to get her heart broken.

Come on, man. If you want to use a double standard on how the characters get to be treated, then don't expect me to take your argument very seriously. You can't have it both ways. When I say that Ranka is pretty weak-willed, you cannot say "No, she isn't!", then cite various examples where she is just that.

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

May I know your point for bringing up the point that the Vajura could show illusions?

Because it was a crucial moment of revelation in episode 14? One which totally fell under the table for the protagonists, because Ranka did not tell anyone? If you care to remember, at that point the other people on Frontier ( outside of Grace ) thought the Vajra to be only brainless monsters, completely alien to human comprehension. Telling them "So, hey, their queen can talk to me and show me images" would have changed quite a bit of stuff, maybe even made Altos hate for the Vajra less virulent.

[Ozuma-Rii]

Just a quick rebuttal: I did not say that her will was strong or weak. It hangs somewhere in the balance.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

Thus, there is no position to argue that Ranka could have fought back against Grace, seeing that she is not the fighter type (I mean physically fighting) nor is she some sort of iron-willed Messiah, capable of laying down her emotional trauma like nobody's business.That is what makes Ranka human and relatable.

I'd say that alone counts as trying to gauge her emotional strength. ^^

[LoveMeKags]

I'll answer a few quick things.

- Episodes 12-14: Ranka gets abducted by Vajra, yells a lot "Save me Alto-kun!", has an important encounter with a Vajra queen where she learns that the Vajra queen can communicate with her and show human illusions... and forgets to tell anyone else about that. The only explanation I have ever found which does not assume overwhelming stupidity on Rankas part is her disassociative amnesia. It was never really spelled out on the show, however.

I'll start off on this by saying she is not truly given a chance after the encounter to speak, for it is Brera who rescues her. This is a new person to her, one she's only met twice, a stranger whom hasn't spoken to her, and one that likely won't understand. After the encounter, all the immediate changes leave her baffled enough. She forgets all about it with everything else going on. Attach real life to your TV in this case and you'd understand that factor. But given that the only time she got to see Alto after the encounter was with Sheryl in the hospital, who is still ill to her understanding, and it likely wouldn't be good for her health to speak of such matters with them, as Sheryl might collapse from her illness (being as Ranka doesn't know what it is). But once again, she is distracted by things around her, as Sheryl starts to sing her song, they join in a duet, and finally, the government comes to claim her. After that, when is she given a chance without being distracted to actually tell someone? Never.

If she had, imagine what would've happened to her. She's gonna tell the whole fleet that she's somehow attached to the enemy trying to kill them all. I can just picture it now: prison or execution, and the second only being the extreme consequences. The government would then use her as a puppet (which Alto already disagreed to countless times) for their own measures. She would've been traumatized once again, forgotten the present (dissociative amnesia is caused by trauma), and caused worse problems for Frontier. Please don't go putting your foot in your mouth by saying "she should tell someone" because she honestly couldn't. The only person she trusted at that point that she saw enough to even do so was Alto, and the timing was never right until the respective episode in which she left. Remember for an instant here that her time with Ozma decreased to almost nothing and then he had to go into hiding, thus leaving her behind to deal with everything on her own.

- Episode 16: Ranka lets herself get bulldozed over by Graces management, changing up her songs. She agrees to use her music to protect Frontier against the Vajra.

This all started back in episode 13 with her desire to help those she loves in any way. What is on Frontier? People she loves. She wants to do whatever she can to help even if she is misled into those options. However, I will state that in real life, a change in command is not something you should question in the music business, it is likely the label company selling you off (for budget reasons) or changing their genre of music (in which case if you only do one type). For Ranka, she won't question it because it was likely to her that Elmo sold her off. We are given no proof that Ranka and Elmo spoke beforehand. So that is my argument. As for her songs: label companies usually give an OK to a song before it is released. There are countless songs that are amazing but are never released because the label company doesn't allow them. In this case, Grace is just doing what all producers do, and that's changing the song for the purpose it is intended for. If Ranka had a problem with that, she would've lost her job, possibly.

- Episode 17: Ranka manages to completely torpedoe her chances at a relationship with Alto by behaving like a pre-teen kid. Alto obliges by totally treating her as such. She is shown as being insecure about her commitment to using her music against the Vajra.

I don't see this. Speaking as a girl, inviting a boy to your bedroom, your private sanctuary, for the first time is always unnerving. For one, look at her room. His impression of her might change, even if only a little. She was very mature about it, allowing him to come in, and not changing her attitude one bit that she wanted to spend time with him. But her reactions are out of complete embarrassment that he has to see her room as such: a child's. Given that it is her personal sanctuary, she is entitled to her own design. If she wants stuffed animals, so be it. That doesn't mean she'll have them whilst being married. Also, it doesn't mean she won't be embarrassed for showing her romantic interest these things.

However, she is allowed to be insecure about her commitment, given the fact she knows very little about her connection to the Vajra at this point or what her songs can truly do, or even what the government's plans are; she is allowed to be concerned about whether it's the right or wrong thing to do. We've had this discussion before about little information causing character flaws. Ranka is like Alto in this case: only hearing one half of the story and not knowing the truth. For all she knows, he could be there to monitor her like all the others, although both would hate that. The point is that being insecure about things you can't control or don't understand, even know, is human.

- Episode 19: Ranka decides that, no, she actually doesn't really want to sing for her home, but only for Alto. Misinterprets Altos flying team making a heart as a personal love declaration from Alto.

Let me stop you for five seconds. She never said that nor implied it. She said her songs are for him. Her lyrics and voice, the person she is trying to reach out to, is Alto. That was their sole purpose from the beginning to her. It doesn't mean she doesn't want to protect her home or sing for it, but her songs and lyrics are always for another. It is quite obvious to see that she loves her home. Think of it this way: Sheryl doesn't sing for Galaxy or Frontier, her songs and lyrics are for Alto, and she decides in the end to use those songs written for Alto to protect Frontier. It is a mirror of Ranka in this respect.

Ironically, she couldn't have been the only one shocked about the heart. Alto was the one person who knew of the performance (shouting to Michael and Luca when another performance was needed) and personally shot through the heart himself. Seriously, what kind of non-romantic decides to perform something like that for a girl he doesn't have feelings for? If it wasn't a design from his boss, then it was his personal creation, and therefore it not only leaves Ranka in shock but the audience too.

- Episode 20: Ranka flips her shit about Sheryl and Alto having a moment and nearly destroys Frontier by exciting the swarms of Vajra larvaes which had hidden themselves in the sublevels. Can't control her negative emotions to calm the Vajra, can't work up any show of friendship when her best friend gets severely hurt right before her eyes, gets Michael ( and thousands of other people ) killed.

You're in the wrong here. I'll explain why. Remember that you are not the actual character. For this exact episode, there was no initial proof that she was connected to the Vajra in such a way that her emotions affected them. That was never studied by anyone aboard Frontier. They said her songs were effective. Quite honestly, how would she have known that negative emotions would also cause them to appear? After they appear, it is just a vent of overwhelming emotions, given that her love has chosen another, her purpose for singing is being lost, her attachment to the Vajra, all the sudden changes, and a variety of other things that I won't state, but mostly that her heart is broken. Her songs are for Alto but he doesn't understand them. How shattering do you think it would be for you to realize that everything you ever did for another was all for naught? I think that would crush you too.

Ranka is not to blame for Michael's death. What could she have possibly done at that point to help? Her songs were already proven ineffective given her state of emotion so it was bound to make the situation worse. You lose that argument.

- Episode 21: She finally manages to get herself enough under control the bring the Vajra towards her and get Frontier saved. Then ditches her responsibility for protecting Frontier and flees the fleet, after entreating Alto to throw his live away on a mission which, to the best of his knowledge, would be a complete suicide mission. Because, hey, Ranka just demonstrated in the last episodes that she can not always make the Vajra love her. Nope, she runs off with Altos biggest rival and leaves the fleet in a ditch.

I would go over all the ways you are wrong in this but I doubt you'll listen.

One thing to note is the arrival of Ai-kun turned the atmosphere for the worse in that visit and conveying her original message would've failed. Having realized this, she left without stating her information. She is not to blame for Alto's misinterpretation of her feelings or motives, given that he should by now know her better, not like a stranger. Whatever he misinterpreted, it just adds to the war that he had feelings for her and watching her leave with another man off to some strange planet with questionable motives kills him inside. He should believe in her by now, given that they are friends. His lack of belief in her is handed right to whose side she's at: Brera Sterne.

I am to laugh at the fact you admit Brera was Alto's rival, given that everyone loves to say that neither fights over Ranka. You contradict that.

- Episode 22: Feels Sheryl and Alto making love. ^^

Not true in any way. She is feeling lonely and lost, trying to understand her thoughts and motives. After all, she made a big decision and now has to live with it. Your sarcasm towards the scene is ridiculous. By that point, she has already suffered heartbreak. Don't you think her reaction would've been different had she actually felt that?

- Episode 24: Ranka gets super-easily turned toward evil purposes by Grace screwing with her mind and begins using her powers against her home.

I chop most of her control-ridden self up to the fact she's just finally remembered her real past and all the bad things that have happened out of her control. She was just a child but is allowed to blame herself for things that took place that long ago. But the pile of those crimes is a heavy burden. She is thus overwhelmed due to her mental insecurity and Grace easily takes over her mind under the pressure.

- Episode 25: Things perfectly fall into place for Ranka to allow her to return home and not be hung from the highest tree as a traitor. She also saves Sheryl's life, redeeming herself somewhat. She then petulantly refuses to be graceful and not pursue Alto anymore, wasting that redemption. Le sigh.

I'll state that Ranka is unaware of anything that happened on Frontier while she was gone. The only encounter she had with the other two in the triangle was in the fold space, and thing seemed typical. I'll disagree to high hell that Alto chose Sheryl, but given the situation, neither girl knew the truth, and so neither is at fault for saying "I'll fight for him" when no words of love have been spoken to either girl in this respect.

2.) Putting some distance between herself and Alto. She very obviously believed that Alto had chosen Sheryl, which resulted in her emotional breakdown. Which was Rankas own damned fault for a.) misinterpreting the relatively benign "embrace" on that rooftop and b.) suddenly focusing all of her own motivations on wanting a romance with Alto.

This is not entirely true. In respect to her character, she still needed time to figure out how she truly felt about Alto. After all, being a person who's never fallen in love with another besides a family member, the whole matter probably confused her. It had been doing that since episode 10 and continued to plague her throughout episode 12 and 13, until it finally hit her in episode 19. Just look at your character trying to discover her love for Alto; she was just as lost. Neither girl had been in love with a boy before, and both were thrown for a loop with it or how to convey it.

However, given the situation, it is not wrong for her to so-called "misinterpret" the embrace between Alto and Sheryl. After all, she walked in on what appears to be a romantic moment between them. It is actually Alto's fault, and slightly Sheryl's, for not stating his intentions or the reason behind the embrace. But he is clearly guilty when she runs away. And part of this is all Sheryl's fault, as she makes absolutely no move to help matters or explain the situation, just stares dumbfounded. How do you explain that?

And, unless someone can present me actual evidence from the show to the contrary, Ranka totally left Frontier in a ditch.

Episode 23 likely is the best proof of why she left Frontier, to discover her powers and connection to the Vajra and understand them. However, she did not expect those memories to be so horrid, a characteristic I find to be very human.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I just can't spend several hours rebutting stuff line by line, which is what normally happens with LMK posts, where she just deluges you with gigantic paragraphs.

For the sake of not being banned, I won't curse you out; but I want to. That is a personal attack that was not needed, and I don't mislead. I state my opinion. How is that any different from you? So please shut your mouth. That is uncalled for.

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Once again, don't feel like shortening it. Must go to class.

[Ozuma-Rii]

^Kags, you have stolen 90% of what I wanted to say from me...
I was planning on a grand counterattack, but I guess you lay down a heavy blow for me...

Well, gotta love how you talk around here, and nope, there is really no need to get angry over this (Well yeah I was both fuming and giggling at the post from magnuskn: Fuming over some parts, and giggling at the counterattacks I can make... I got a lot of weird stares from the commuters on the MRT)