New Mobile Report Gundam Wing: Frozen Teardrop (2010 Novel)

[Nishiio]

Originally Posted by Deacon Blues

I'm working on Glory of the Defeated right now Should be out in a couple days. Anyone wanna help with QC? Kit?

If you still need help, I'd be happy to look it over. =)

[IkuzeMinna]

First of all, welcome Kyardan, mirei and Karla.

Those character designs... Variety isn't something they're big on in FT, is it? Seriously, Milliardo Naina looks manlier than her bro. And what's up with "colony leader Heero Yuy"? You'd think he'd be more jovial than our solemn sack of joy turned Gundam pilot. Or maybe he's just really tired of having Katrina interrupt his every sentence..?

Anyway, I'd like to pick up the previous conversation. Sorry to butt in, folks.

Originally Posted by Leave The Pieces

Holy crap, see, I knew Sumizawa's been reading too much fan fiction. 90% of the fan fics I have read out there has 2xH married, 6x9 having kids, Wu Fei barely given a role (which bothers me to no end, Wu Fei is awesome!), Trowa and Quatre staying by each other's side for the rest of their lives post EW, a 1xR reunion... and Relena a pathetic, hopeless romantic.

Sturgeon's Law says that 90% of everything is crap. I'd say he's right.

That aside, I don't think Sumizawa has read too much fanfic. If that were the case, Trowa would be mute, Wu Fei would be homophobic and referring to women only by 'woman' (or better yet, 'onna', because it makes total sense for a Chinese to speak Japanese ), Duo would be a loud idiot who'd play pranks all the time and Heero would be either hitting on Relena nonstop or angsting for five thousand pages "what those weird feelings are." Though I can see that last one happening in FT.
No, I think Sumizawa simply hasn't watched GW in a long time, but has watched plenty of other shows. It's the only reason I can think of of why Duo and Wu Fei suddenly have a Goku-Vegeta relationship or why some women are sobbing, lovesick idiots, who'd give up everything for the love of their life. Bah, the latter reminds me so much of Inu Yasha, especially the ending. Anyway.
I think the best way I can put it is that I believe Sumizawa doesn't know GW anymore, he only remembers it. At least, where the characters are concerned. He has a general idea of how they acted but he has forgotten about the details (like the majority of people who were fans back then). He's applying stereotypes.

I realize this is quite the statement to make, so allow me to elaborate.
As I mentioned, the relationship dynamics between Duo and Wu Fei are one of the things that had me raise my brow. Although Wu Fei taunted Duo in the series it was never in a hostile manner. So I was quite surprised about the whole "I never considered you a friend" thing. Not to mention that Kathy describes them as bickering kids.
Then there's Heero. The entire circumstances about him being frozen don't add up to me. He said he wouldn't kill anymore at the end of EW. Why on Earth would he agree to be further used as a 'weapon' then? What became of "I will survive!"? Not exactly living as an ice block, is he? That's what bothers me most about him in FT. At the end of the series he had stopped seeing himself as expendable. He wanted to live. And at the end of EW he wanted to live a life without killing. And now Sumizawa tells me he froze himself? To kill people? wtf.
Next one would be Duo. *sigh* What did he do to him? The guy grows up on the streets, loses his family twice, survives a war and still walks around with a smile on his face, albeit with a very cynic streak. And now Sumizawa expects me to believe that in FT he's turned into an self-pitying, unreliable bastard? What? The one who fought "so that no one else would have to", who went out of his way to save people in trouble and felt guilty when people suffered because of him suddenly marries the girl he calls his home because he wants to buy a motorbike, sets off into the wilderness without giving a damn about her or anything else and pretty much dumps all his responsibilities (namely a church) on her? What did he smoke?
Though I think Kit said something about having expected something like that. If you could elaborate, I'd be very grateful. Because I really can't see it.
Lastly, there would be the women. GW is one of the very few anime in which males and females are equally badass. All of them. We got soldiers, knife-throwers, guerillas and princesses, who keep their cool even though the very building they stand in is under fire. Now, let's look at FT. Is Angelina badass? No. Is Aoi? Nope. Hilde and Catherine seem badass, though. But they're also crazy. Punching people for not saying hi? Yeah, that's crazy in my book. Did something like that happen in GW? I can't recall an instance. And don't get me started on the whole love business. GW's greatest offender was Noin with counting the days since she last saw Zechs. And maybe Relena for constantly saying Heero's name, if you interpret it that way. But FT is dripping with sap. I know, that's not really an argument but it doesn't do anything to contribute to a GW feeling for the novel either.

In the end, I think that's what I want to say. FT doesn't really read like something related to GW. It doesn't "feel" like Gundam Wing.

Originally Posted by Kitsoru

As for uh... the 'fic', well, there's a reason everyone had that happening. It was easily predictable- everyone knew it was stuff that was going to happen if you took the events in series and manga to their logical conclusions.

Okay, you piqued my interest, Kit. Do tell, 10 years from the series' end, how do you picture the pilots? Actually, this is a question to everyone. What do you think would be the "logical conclusion"? Are the fic stereotypes or FT close to it?

Originally Posted by Kitsoru

In a situation like that where Heero's going off to die, and with the situation she's in here, you don't think she'd be thinking something like that? And beyond that.... I don't see why it's bad for her to be, as Duo says, sad that the person she loves has to kill her. That IS sad.

I'm with Leave The Pieces on this one. It is sad but as it has been said already, Relena doesn't tear up because of something like that. If it's for the greater good she'll muster up her courage and say "do it". It's what she did as Queen and in EW. If she was sad about anything it was because she believed she failed to achieve her goal, not because her beloved was about to shoot her. At least, that's what I think. The only time we see her cry because of Heero is at the end after Libra blows up, the war is over and Heero is safe.

Originally Posted by Kitsoru

Though if anything I like Wufei for his jerkiness.

You'd be surprised by how small the number of people who hate him is by now. Besides, Wu Fei is awesome and I won't have anyone blindly hate on him. Not when you can easily twist him into being either a tragic hero, a tragic romantic or just the plain badass kung fu guy. And although he is jerk, he isn't being a jerk about it. He'll only rub it in your face when you actually do something stupid.

Originally Posted by Kitsoru

(Either way this kind of annoys me too because you just know the shippers in denial will point to this and say, 'BUT HEERO NEVER SAID HE LOVED HER!!!'. Because people don't get he's a stoic! He wouldn't confess his love to anybody outright. Sigh.)

To this I only say: "I will kill you." And for the rest of the series and movie you see him rushing to her aid and protecting her all the time. Yeah, Heero is totally a man of his word. It definitely isn't a case of "actions speak louder than words". Or better yet, acting on your emotions.

[Nishiio]

...*slow clap*

Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna

FT doesn't really read like something related to GW. It doesn't "feel" like Gundam Wing.

I still have this surreal feel when I keep up with this thing and I think you summed it up perfectly. I mean, as mentioned, it's a miracle that they've decided to revive this series. I've been able to see great discussions and meet lots of new/old fans of this amazing series. But at the same time, it's as if they took everything Gundam Wing was and tossed it out the window.

Yes, GW IS a gundam series - mecha, action, explosions, etc. But I really loved the characters and all the development they went through. Relena went from being sheltered and somewhat ignorant to a girl who fought to keep her ideal of peace alive. I felt Heero was more developed in the beginning after reading Episode Zero but he definitely grew by the end of the series. He already valued life but I think he learned to value his own too. For him to decide to become a weapon again is too out of character.

Argh. Way too much stuff to recount but it had great stories and great characters...I don't quite understand how Sumisawa managed to forget all of this. =__=

Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna

That aside, I don't think Sumizawa has read too much fanfic. If that were the case, Trowa would be mute, Wu Fei would be homophobic and referring to women only by 'woman' (or better yet, 'onna', because it makes total sense for a Chinese to speak Japanese ), Duo would be a loud idiot who'd play pranks all the time and Heero would be either hitting on Relena nonstop or angsting for five thousand pages "what those weird feelings are." Though I can see that last one happening in FT.

LMAO I've definitely experienced all of those in fanfics, haha. *shudder* Though to be fair, I have read a few damn good fanfics that keeps everyone in character.

On a side note, I never understood why Wufei got all the hate he did. I mean, he was blunt but he had his own ideals about war and peace and I thought he made for a really interesting character. (His past in Episode Zero made me like him a lot more too. Maybe if they had put that in the series...?)


10 years after Endless Waltz? I'm going to go with the best case scenario and pray that the gundams were never remade (as much as I'd love to see that) and that war did not break out every other year. I feel the closing scene of Endless Waltz really made it for me: Relena will continue to promote peace and work with politicians; I feel Heero would either work to protect her or go on living a peaceful life, maybe even try getting a normal job? Duo and Hilde will do fine in their business and I can see children in their lives. I'm not too sure about Wufei and Sally, given Wufei's past I wouldn't shoot the idea down.

Basically...my vision of them 10 years from now is NOT what Frozen Teardrop describes lol.

[Kitsoru]

Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna

I think the best way I can put it is that I believe Sumizawa doesn't know GW anymore, he only remembers it.

Sorry dude, but that's one of the most inane things I've heard in this thread. A writer doesn't "forget" their works the way you "forget" a movie you've watched. He might leave, work on other stuff, and come back with a fresh or different outlook or ideas. It's different from say, actors, who usually don't watch the movies they're in; everything originates with the writer, the ideas, the characters, the plot. They don't forget.

Spoiler for Spoiler cuttin' the rest of this for space:

Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna

As I mentioned, the relationship dynamics between Duo and Wu Fei are one of the things that had me raise my brow. Although Wu Fei taunted Duo in the series it was never in a hostile manner. So I was quite surprised about the whole "I never considered you a friend" thing. Not to mention that Kathy describes them as bickering kids.

Uhhh you sure? Go back and watch the scenes where they were trapped in prison together.

Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna

Then there's Heero. The entire circumstances about him being frozen don't add up to me. He said he wouldn't kill anymore at the end of EW. Why on Earth would he agree to be further used as a 'weapon' then? What became of "I will survive!"? Not exactly living as an ice block, is he? That's what bothers me most about him in FT. At the end of the series he had stopped seeing himself as expendable. He wanted to live. And at the end of EW he wanted to live a life without killing. And now Sumizawa tells me he froze himself? To kill people? wtf.

Sumisawa never said he froze himself to kill people. We don't know why he was frozen- so we really can't judge anything yet until we know what the circumstances were.

Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna

Next one would be Duo. *sigh* What did he do to him? The guy grows up on the streets, loses his family twice, survives a war and still walks around with a smile on his face, albeit with a very cynic streak. And now Sumizawa expects me to believe that in FT he's turned into an self-pitying, unreliable bastard? What? The one who fought "so that no one else would have to", who went out of his way to save people in trouble and felt guilty when people suffered because of him suddenly marries the girl he calls his home because he wants to buy a motorbike, sets off into the wilderness without giving a damn about her or anything else and pretty much dumps all his responsibilities (namely a church) on her? What did he smoke?
Though I think Kit said something about having expected something like that. If you could elaborate, I'd be very grateful. Because I really can't see it.

I did, and I did. I don't know how to explain it other than.. when you get that fucked up in life, and your reaction is to cover everything up with fake grins and hold it in for years and years instead of working it out through therapy or even just internally mulling it over, that cover's not gonna last long, and that's gonna get you long-term, terrible depression. Which leads to... drinking, listlessness, moodswings, etc! Is this really so shocking? I don't know, maybe more people just need to learn how actual manic depressives and people with PTSD act. :P

Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna

Lastly, there would be the women. GW is one of the very few anime in which males and females are equally badass. All of them. We got soldiers, knife-throwers, guerillas and princesses, who keep their cool even though the very building they stand in is under fire. Now, let's look at FT. Is Angelina badass? No. Is Aoi? Nope.

...How is Aoi not badass, exactly? She may be a sucker emotionally (my opinion anyway) but she's a badass when it comes to tooth and nail.

You know. Just like Heero.

Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna

Hilde and Catherine seem badass, though. But they're also crazy. Punching people for not saying hi? Yeah, that's crazy in my book. Did something like that happen in GW? I can't recall an instance.

Cathy's always been boisterous. Doesn't shock me in the least. What you should be raising eyebrows at is her opinion on war making a 180. Again, another actual major point of contention, missed.... Am I seriously the only person to notice this?

Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna

And don't get me started on the whole love business. GW's greatest offender was Noin with counting the days since she last saw Zechs. And maybe Relena for constantly saying Heero's name, if you interpret it that way. But FT is dripping with sap. I know, that's not really an argument but it doesn't do anything to contribute to a GW feeling for the novel either.

...So if it was already in the series, how is this a problem? Which isn't to say I like it either but the precedent is there; you can't really complain about it being here now.

Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna

In the end, I think that's what I want to say. FT doesn't really read like something related to GW. It doesn't "feel" like Gundam Wing.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna

Okay, you piqued my interest, Kit. Do tell, 10 years from the series' end, how do you picture the pilots? Actually, this is a question to everyone. What do you think would be the "logical conclusion"? Are the fic stereotypes or FT close to it?

I never read GW fic except for a very select few of wingzerosnuggles' fic. I've only been a fan of the series for about 3-4 years now, and have purposely stayed away from the fandom- so I would like to think I have a relatively untainted point of view, at least by fanon. And this is exactly where I saw it going, as far as characterization.

Cryofreezing, Mars, and character clones...not so much.

Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna

I'm with Leave The Pieces on this one. It is sad but as it has been said already, Relena doesn't tear up because of something like that. If it's for the greater good she'll muster up her courage and say "do it". It's what she did as Queen and in EW. If she was sad about anything it was because she believed she failed to achieve her goal, not because her beloved was about to shoot her. At least, that's what I think. The only time we see her cry because of Heero is at the end after Libra blows up, the war is over and Heero is safe.

You just answered your own question.

Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna

To this I only say: "I will kill you." And for the rest of the series and movie you see him rushing to her aid and protecting her all the time. Yeah, Heero is totally a man of his word. It definitely isn't a case of "actions speak louder than words". Or better yet, acting on your emotions.

...I don't think you really get Heero's character then, if you don't get why 'I'll kill you' always fails. :/ That was the entire point.

[Elo the Blue]

Spoiler for Long response to Ikuze's post:

Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna

Anyway, I'd like to pick up the previous conversation. Sorry to butt in, folks.

Sturgeon's Law says that 90% of everything is crap. I'd say he's right.

That aside, I don't think Sumizawa has read too much fanfic. If that were the case, Trowa would be mute, Wu Fei would be homophobic and referring to women only by 'woman' (or better yet, 'onna', because it makes total sense for a Chinese to speak Japanese ), Duo would be a loud idiot who'd play pranks all the time and Heero would be either hitting on Relena nonstop or angsting for five thousand pages "what those weird feelings are." Though I can see that last one happening in FT.
No, I think Sumizawa simply hasn't watched GW in a long time, but has watched plenty of other shows. It's the only reason I can think of of why Duo and Wu Fei suddenly have a Goku-Vegeta relationship or why some women are sobbing, lovesick idiots, who'd give up everything for the love of their life. Bah, the latter reminds me so much of Inu Yasha, especially the ending. Anyway.
I think the best way I can put it is that I believe Sumizawa doesn't know GW anymore, he only remembers it. At least, where the characters are concerned. He has a general idea of how they acted but he has forgotten about the details (like the majority of people who were fans back then). He's applying stereotypes.

I realize this is quite the statement to make, so allow me to elaborate.
As I mentioned, the relationship dynamics between Duo and Wu Fei are one of the things that had me raise my brow. Although Wu Fei taunted Duo in the series it was never in a hostile manner. So I was quite surprised about the whole "I never considered you a friend" thing. Not to mention that Kathy describes them as bickering kids.
Then there's Heero. The entire circumstances about him being frozen don't add up to me. He said he wouldn't kill anymore at the end of EW. Why on Earth would he agree to be further used as a 'weapon' then? What became of "I will survive!"? Not exactly living as an ice block, is he? That's what bothers me most about him in FT. At the end of the series he had stopped seeing himself as expendable. He wanted to live. And at the end of EW he wanted to live a life without killing. And now Sumizawa tells me he froze himself? To kill people? wtf.
Next one would be Duo. *sigh* What did he do to him? The guy grows up on the streets, loses his family twice, survives a war and still walks around with a smile on his face, albeit with a very cynic streak. And now Sumizawa expects me to believe that in FT he's turned into an self-pitying, unreliable bastard? What? The one who fought "so that no one else would have to", who went out of his way to save people in trouble and felt guilty when people suffered because of him suddenly marries the girl he calls his home because he wants to buy a motorbike, sets off into the wilderness without giving a damn about her or anything else and pretty much dumps all his responsibilities (namely a church) on her? What did he smoke?
Though I think Kit said something about having expected something like that. If you could elaborate, I'd be very grateful. Because I really can't see it.
Lastly, there would be the women. GW is one of the very few anime in which males and females are equally badass. All of them. We got soldiers, knife-throwers, guerillas and princesses, who keep their cool even though the very building they stand in is under fire. Now, let's look at FT. Is Angelina badass? No. Is Aoi? Nope. Hilde and Catherine seem badass, though. But they're also crazy. Punching people for not saying hi? Yeah, that's crazy in my book. Did something like that happen in GW? I can't recall an instance. And don't get me started on the whole love business. GW's greatest offender was Noin with counting the days since she last saw Zechs. And maybe Relena for constantly saying Heero's name, if you interpret it that way. But FT is dripping with sap. I know, that's not really an argument but it doesn't do anything to contribute to a GW feeling for the novel either.

In the end, I think that's what I want to say. FT doesn't really read like something related to GW. It doesn't "feel" like Gundam Wing.

Okay, you piqued my interest, Kit. Do tell, 10 years from the series' end, how do you picture the pilots? Actually, this is a question to everyone. What do you think would be the "logical conclusion"? Are the fic stereotypes or FT close to it?

Not to sound disrespectful but theorizing that the characters being drastically different from how seemingly a lot of us envisioned they would be is because one of the three scriptwriters hasn't watched the series in a long time seems preposterous to me. Even if Sumisawa hadn't watched the series in forever, how could he possibly forget the characteristics of people he had a hand in shaping?

To me, a better explanation would be that he simply has more freedom to do what he wants with the characters seeing as he's FT's sole writer. I'm sure he butted heads with the other scriptwriters during GW's production. In addition to expanding the universe, FT is an opportunity for Sumisawa to more of his stamp on the GW universe.

To your point about what Wufei said to Duo and their bickering, do those things really surprise you? Wufei was surly even as a teenager. It's very plausible he'd become more bitter as he got older(especially if Sally died). In addition, the time Duo and Wufei spent on Peacemillion aside, the two only had extended one-on-one interaction when they were locked up in Barge and the Lunar Base. Still, thy never bonded. I doubt they communicated very much after the events of EW either. So really, it doesn't seem far-fetched that Wufei would say he didn't consider Duo a friend or that they'd argue.

With Heero, there were things he said in the series he never carried out. As serious as he was when proclaimed he'd survive and how he wouldn't kill again, it's not a stretch he would go back on his word and go back to doing what he does best.

In regards to Duo, again, I'm not surprised by what has happened to him either. Growing up, he never knew stability. Beyond "survival skills" he learned as an orphan and his work as a scavenger, the only other things he was truly good at all involved combat. He himself talked about how he ran and hid but never told a lie. Does that sound like a reliable person? In fact, I clearly remember Duo saying in Episode 39 that he wasn't the most "devoted" person around. Again, for him to become an unreliable adult isn't outlandish at all.

The self-pity seems natural too. He hid it well during the series and EW for the most part but any orphan who lost the only people that cared for him when he was young and was publicly made the villain of a war he fought when he was 15 would have lasting psychological issues.

There were instances where a lady punched someone for not greeting her but Une more than supplied enough erratic moments in the series.

I'll agree with you somewhat that FT doesn't have the GW "feel" in some ways but there have been some quality elements that remind you of the series and it's related works in my opinion.

[Kitsoru]

Originally Posted by Elo the Blue

To me, a better explanation would be that he simply has more freedom to do what he wants with the characters seeing as he's FT's sole writer. I'm sure he butted heads with the other scriptwriters during GW's production. In addition to expanding the universe, FT is an opportunity for Sumisawa to more of his stamp on the GW universe.

THIS

And there were three scriptwriters? Lol how did I miss this, who were the other two? Or do you mean like, the director and someone else? Since I know Sumisawa quit over creative differences with Ikeda.

[Elo the Blue]

Originally Posted by Kitsoru

THIS

And there were three scriptwriters? Lol how did I miss this, who were the other two? Or do you mean like, the director and someone else? Since I know Sumisawa quit over creative differences with Ikeda.

According to Wiki(not the best source I know), there were three official scriptwriters, Sumisawa, Akemi Omode and Katsuhiko Chiba. Supposedly, director Masashi Ikeda wrote a script and someone called Toshifumi Kawase also wrote three scripts in the latter part of the first half of the series.

Anime News Networks "confirms" those names working on GW and it's related works, so I guess the info on Wiki was true.

[Kitsoru]

Ahh, yeah, just went to ANN to look. And Omode did BT, right? So yeah, if Ikeda was both on the scriptwriting team and directing, and Sumisawa was Head Scenario Writer and scriptwriter, I can see how they were butting heads, lol. The Creative Guy and the Logic Guy rarely get along... :B

What else has Chiba worked on? That's the only name that didn't jump out at me... OHHH nm he did BoP. So I guess they all sort of got a manga of their own...

[Elo the Blue]

Originally Posted by Kitsoru

Ahh, yeah, just went to ANN to look. And Omode did BT, right? So yeah, if Ikeda was both on the scriptwriting team and directing, and Sumisawa was Head Scenario Writer and scriptwriter, I can see how they were butting heads, lol.

What else has Chiba worked on? That's the only name that didn't jump out at me...

Apparently, Chiba wrote the story for BoP. He's also worked on Turn A, Outlaw Star, Inuyasha and Yu-Gi-Oh.

[Kitsoru]

Huh. I wonder if he worked on InuYasha the same time Sumisawa did. Though then again, that show's been around forever so everyone and their mother has probably worked on it >.>;;

Elo, I see you're in Balmer, you going to Otakon?

[Elo the Blue]

Originally Posted by Kitsoru

Huh. I wonder if he worked on InuYasha the same time Sumisawa did. Though then again, that show's been around forever so everyone and their mother has probably worked on it >.>;;

Elo, I see you're in Balmer, you going to Otakon?

LOL

I want to but I've got some other stuff I'm saving up for. I went to it for the first time two years ago and blew like $160 over the two/three days. Had a blast though.

Will you be going?

[Kitsoru]

Originally Posted by Elo the Blue

LOL

I want to but I've got some other stuff I'm saving up for. I went to it for the first time two years ago and blew like $160 over the two/three days. Had a blast though.

Will you be going?

Yup! Asked because there's going to be a (almost) full Gundam Wing pilotsuit group (I'm the Duo) there this year ;D We will probably hit up the Gundam or Bandai panels.

(If anyone else is going and sees me, feel free to say hi btw)

[Elo the Blue]

Originally Posted by Kitsoru

Yup! Asked because there's going to be a (almost) full Gundam Wing pilotsuit group (I'm the Duo) there this year ;D We will probably hit up the Gundam or Bandai panels.

(If anyone else is going and sees me, feel free to say hi btw)

Sounds awesome. Will you be posting pictures?

[Kitsoru]

Originally Posted by Elo the Blue

Sounds awesome. Will you be posting pictures?

I'll toss a link here when we get the photoshoot back, sure

I was hoping there would be FT cosplays there this year, but I guess not at least from the sounds of the gathering thread. I'm probably going to try to whip a Jr. up in the Fall though.

[Faerie]

Why... Naina, what has happened? You look like a dude ;_;'

(Scary, too. For a girl. I keep picturing her saying "Objection!!")

That said, could someone please help clarify:
The recent episode with little!Naina who was left with Duo/Hilde was a few years in the past, and since then, uh, something has happened, and this chapter, a few years later (!?) we get Zechs (the real one!??) with Tallgeese, Zechs (fake one!?) with Epyon, and Wufei with Epyon Bai (what?)... doing what exactly, and how do Quaterine, Naina and Mille come into this? x__x How do they even know each other?
(And where is their mum?)
Meanwhile, Relena wants to die.

Wow, glad things have started making sense while I was gone...

[Leave The Pieces]

Response to IkuzeMinna, Kitsoru and Elo the Blue's posts:

Spoiler for So long, it could be a novel.:

IkuzeMinna: That aside, I don't think Sumizawa has read too much fanfic.
...has a general idea of how they acted but he has forgotten about the details (like the majority of people who were fans back then). He's applying stereotypes.

This. This is what I was trying to say, really. Referring to it as "90% fan fiction, blah blah blah", I guess, was wrong. I merely meant it as an expression/hyperbole. I doubt Sumizawa's gone to fanfiction.net and read fics there.

Wrong choice of words on my part, I guess. So let me take that back. What I meant to say was exactly what you said. I think, like the majority of the fandom, he sees them as stereotype characters now.

Regarding Sumizawa "forgetting", I guess "forget" is not the best word for it, but, personally, I do not think IkuzeMinna's point is insane at all.
I can see the odd change myself (by 'change', I'm referring to how different I see the characters now from how I saw them in the series). However, I don't think it's that he forgot how he wrote them***. I will elaborate on that later on in this post*****.

Kitsoru: Uhhh you sure? Go back and watch the scenes where they were trapped in prison together.

Funny, because I was just going to point this out in agreement with IkuzeMinna. When they were trapped in the prison together, they didn't really seem like they'd be the best buddies but they didn't bicker either. The words they exchanged weren't the most courteous but I wouldn't call that situation in the series the same as their situation in the opening of FT that when fans like IkuzeMinna and myself notice the difference, it's okay for other fans to say we're just seeing things. (I'm NOT saying that you said that.) You'd notice that I'd be constantly defensive as I don't want you or anyone else to misinterpret my intonation as something flame-y and accusatory.

Elo the Blue: To your point about what Wufei said to Duo and their bickering, do those things really surprise you? Wufei was surly even as a teenager. It's very plausible he'd become more bitter as he got older(especially if Sally died). In addition, the time Duo and Wufei spent on Peacemillion aside, the two only had extended one-on-one interaction when they were locked up in Barge and the Lunar Base. Still, they never bonded. I doubt they communicated very much after the events of EW either. So really, it doesn't seem far-fetched that Wufei would say he didn't consider Duo a friend or that they'd argue.

I have to admit, while the two didn't bond, I MYSELF am surprised that they were written as bickering five-year-olds. So yes, if I were the one asked that question, I'd definitely say yes. Those things really would surprise me. And boy, they do.

Actually, one of the things that I liked about Gundam Wing is the fact that (in my eyes, at least) it did NOT have stereotype characters and 'relationships' (such as the cat-and-dog type) like most anime these days do.

While Duo and Wu Fei don't exactly share the same personality, enthusiasm and/or interests, like IkuzeMinna, I don't see them getting all Hiei and Kuwabara to each other. Especially now that they're older. Way older. Imo, in the series and EW, they acted beyond their age. And now that they're older they're being this way? Actually, I thought I was the only one who noticed the off-ness there. Just too insecure, ngl, to bring it up lol. Glad you noticed it too, Ikuze!

So, anyway. No, I'm not surprised that Wu Fei doesn't consider Duo a friend. I wouldn't be surprised if even now at present he still doesn't consider anyone a friend. I'm surprised that he'd bicker with Duo and vice versa. Everytime there will be 'arguments' in the series, I always saw Wu Fei as someone who wouldn't waste his breath over something like bickering. He shrugs, walks out or groans in annoyance if people don't listen to him. He wouldn't quarrel with anyone over "trivial" things. He only talks a lot inside the Shenlong cockpit... or anything's cockpit. And when he does talk a lot, it's always about his principles. At least, that's how I've always seen him. For instance, when Duo commented about Heero going after Relena in Libra near the end. Quatre goes 'leave the lovebirds alone'. Trowa goes 'goes to show how powerful that girl is to be able to influence a guy like Heero, blah blah'.

And what was Mr. Congeniality's comeback? "WEAK!"
Trowa comes to 1xR's aid: Dude. Just greet Relena.

If the Wu Fei then is the same as the FT!Wu Fei, I can see him hitting back at Trowa. But the Wu Fei then, did not. He simply went: Hn!

I always saw him as the guy who wouldn't bother trying to convince people otherwise. Most times, he walked out on people, if I remember correctly. Most of which were in a middle of a conversation, too.

I'm not sure if I'm getting my point across but here's an example:

A.) Series!Wu Fei versus... me?:

A1) Me: See that chair over there? Yeah. It's blue.
A2) Wu Fei: No. It's indigo.
A3) Me: No. It's blue.
A4) Wu Fei: *walks out*

B.) FT!Wu Fei versus me:

B1) Me: See that chair over there? Yeah. It's blue.
B2) Wu Fei: No. It's indigo.
B3) Me: No. It's blue.
B4) Wu Fei: No. It's indigo.

~repeat lines B3 and B4 1000x~

This is the impression Sumizawa left me with the way he wrote the bickering of Duo and Wu Fei. Obviously, the bit above is an exaggeration. But I hope I'm getting the point of the whole comparison across.

As for Duo, I'm still with IkuzeMinna on this one, I have to admit. It is possible that he simply held back his "emo teenager" side during the series and EW and that it's simply taking its toll on him now.

But still, it doesn't make sense to me, either. Because if anything, he would've shown this side of him back then--when the war was at its peak and they (the pilots) were getting tossed around to places, confused about who to side with, when life was just hands down ugly, blah.

What could something so huge break him down NOW? There's no war or anything at the moment (just threats of it occuring, correct me if I'm wrong).

Also, if he were simply holding back his depression and shiz back in the day, he wouldn't have reacted badly when he witnessed Deathscythe blown to bits by Trowa. He could've felt bad then and just held in it. Cuz theoretically, if he's been keeping all them deep down all along, I can't see the compromise in having this downer added to his already-long list of secret heartaches. What's carrying one more sheet of A4 when you're already carrying ten oversized dictionaries? (Lame expression but I honestly dunno how else to express myself. Told you's I suck at English. )

But no, he let it out then. Afterward, he's back to his old happy-go-lucky self.

Regarding Catherine Bloom, I've always seen her as a very aggressive woman compared to the average. But getting all Chuck Norris on someone because of something so trivial is also crazy in my book. I never expected her to behave like that, either.

Kitsoru:You just answered your own question.

Pardon me? Can you elaborate on that? You lost me on that one. Not mocking you here, I honestly didn't understand. I must have missed this, but did Relena go all shake-y, teary-eyes when Heero survived? Well, if she did, I still don't see how IkuzeMinna has answered herself here because this situation is too different from the one in this FT!chapter. Even if she did cry then, to me, it doesn't vindicate Sumizawa's sudden writing of Relena being all mopey (unless, like I said in my previous post, something huge happened between her and Heero before all this came to be) when back in the series she only ever cried when it's her significant others that got hurt. If it was her on the line, she never had any dramas about it. She can't be crying now because she missed Heero so much and she's glad she got to see him again. She knows him better than anyone and there's no doubt in my mind she's made peace with the way he rolls. As for her getting killed by Heero, it's evident enough for me that she's also made peace with the huge possibility of dying young, especially at the hands of Heero, very early on in the series, even.

***Now my promised further elaboration on the criticisms I mumbled towards Sumizawa's writing.

To sum up the point of everything that I just stressed on, Relena getting hurt NOW (of all times, I can't help but say it over and over) about Heero killing her, Wu Fei, Duo and Catherine's weird behaviours, one can say I am accusing Sumizawa of OOC writing.

(WAIT, keep reading and don't react violently just yet!)

Which is farfetched, because Sumizawa created these characters. He can't be accused of OOC writing.

So what am I really accusing him of?

I'm not accusing him of anything, really.

Let me pick up from where I left off. ***I don't think it's that he forgot how he wrote them. Imo and only imo, he's simply suffering from inconsistent way of writing the characters.
Whether it's on purpose or not, is beyond me.

If it was on purpose, my guess would be maybe he thinks that it's okay to do so because not a lot of fans will notice/get angry anyway. Since the majority of the fandom sees the characters as stereotypes anyway. They outnumber those who don't, like myself.

I'm not saying that those who see the characters as stereotypes are wrong.
I'm not saying that those who don't are right.

Who's to say which fans are right and which are wrong, right?

But you can't blame those who don't see the characters as stereotypes... for not seeing them as stereotypes then and whingeing about seeing them as stereotypes now (because of FT). Because our, or better yet, MY character analyses, at the end of the day, are still based on my interpretation of the canon. Then again, it's just that: an interpretation. People interpret things differently. But I guess it's way better than the rabid fans who throw accusations without bases.

Regarding him having more freedom now than he did in the 90's. I guess you could say that THAT is a better explanation indeed. Then again, he was the one who wrote the story and the scenario. The others were merely there for the dialogues. So if he's credited as the scenario writer, and as the lead scriptwriter, then the majority of the series and OVA's story was all his idea still.
I doubt Relena was this fierce fifteen-year-old gal because Omode or whoever else wanted her to be that way (and so they wrote her that way), that Sumizawa's just happy to be able to write her all softie now like he's always wanted to but couldn't because his fellow writers didn't allow him to.

No one can really explain why Sumizawa's writing the characters this way now.
But fans are allowed to speculate why... and I guess, criticise him and his writing every now and then.

I put a lot of effort writing this. So in all honesty, I'd feel bad if one or all three of you went: TLDR on this. But despite that, I wouldn't be surprised if any of you guys did lol so please don't feel like you're obliged to read this. I only felt confident writing it this long because it's a discussion thread anyway.

[Kitsoru]

Inane
Insane
(I know you're ESL, so, I figured I'd clarify that for you. I said inane, which implies more that it's lacking logic than lacking sanity.)

I don't see them getting all Hiei and Kuwabara to each other.

I see what you did there.
Anyway, I'm just not surprised by their behavior. In Duo's case, he explains his behavior and how he's felt since the end of EW himself in chapter 8 which is narrated by him (which I know most people haven't read yet, but he does. You'll see). And as for Wufei, Sumisawa goes through the trouble to have Duo explain to Kathy that he's always been like that. Kathy notes this is his usual behavior. I think people would be complaining even more if they were suddenly balanced, mature adults, which they OUGHT to have complained if he had :P They didn't exactly have the most conducive environment to becoming balanced and mature adults (mature is the wrong word because they were all 'mature' in a sense as 15 year olds, being Gundam pilots, but I can't think of a better one atm).

But still, it doesn't make sense to me, either. Because if anything, he would've shown this side of him back then--when the war was at its peak and they (the pilots) were getting tossed around to places, confused about who to side with, when life was just hands down ugly, blah.

He was probably too focused on fighting, too busy to let shit get to him then. As I mentioned above, you really need to read Chapter 8. It basically has Duo explaining his own behavior for the entire first section or so, and then he has a conversation with Jr. where he starts waxing poetical about it again. Hopefully Deacon'll release it soon and you'll see what I mean.
As for what I meant, he quoted:

The only time we see her cry because of Heero is at the end after Libra blows up, the war is over and Heero is safe.

Which is answering his own question as to why Relena is getting sentimental now. Because she gets sentimental where Heero is concerned- I don't get why this is so difficult to understand?
Honest question, because I'm curious if this has anything to do with it: Are you a guy or girl?
I know it's a gender stereotype but I am honestly curious if males or females are having a harder time understanding Relena's behavior.

But you can't blame those who don't see the characters as stereotypes...

Honestly this statement miffs me a little. I do NOT see these characters as stereotypes and I think it's very unfair to cast those who are disagreeing with your opinion of the character writing as doing so.

[IkuzeMinna]

There's so much I want to say right now but I can't because I have to get cellulose thinner to get paint off my pants. So I'm reserving this spot for a lengthy reply. One little thing though.

Because she gets sentimental where Heero is concerned- I don't get why this is so difficult to understand?

What's so difficult to understand about this is that is looks like it's the same situation as in EW. Both haven't seen each other for a year and Heero has to kill Relena for the greater good (even if indirectly). But instead of tearing up like in FT, Relena mans up in EW and goes "do it", which shocks Mariemaia.
The scene in FT could be different, of course so I can't really tell yet. As for the example I brought up, it's still different in my opinion because Relena shed tears out of relief, not sadness.
But heck, what am I arguing about anyway. Relena crying really didn't bother me as much as it may sound. There's other stuff I get annoyed by. But more of that later. *runs to store*

EDIT: Well, got the paint off. And the color as well. -__-

Anyway, seems like I got the discussion rolling again. Bold statements tend to do that, haha.
Now, in order for people to understand my point, I guess it's best if I start at the beginning and explain my take on GW first, so that I can build on that as to what expectations I have of a continuation and why FT is, pardon, pissing me off so much. Note that this is only my personal opinion and not intended to aggravate anyone with different views. I'm only voicing my thoughts here.

Spoiler for my very long rambling:

So, what do I like about Gundam Wing? I can say without lying, almost everything. I like the story, the characters, the themes, the designs and the music. I like its humor, its subtlety, the fact that everyone plays a role and that there's no definite bad guy (nor good one for that matter). I like its dynamics and how you can view it any way you want, e.g. the Gundam pilots being heroes or plain murderers. And I like that you can and even must dig to understand things. The whole composition really works for me.

And what's best is that this entire composition makes Gundam Wing more; it makes it unique. I grew up with classics like Dragonball and Sailor Moon, the forefathers of the 'Idiot Hero' archetype for both males and females. Even to this day you see series featuring these types of main characters. Classic scenario of a naive yet pure kid growing up to become the savior of the world. We've all seen that.

It's why Gundam Wing is so special to me. It has a completely atypical setup and there's absolutely no stereotype I can apply to any character, no matter what TV Tropes may say. Heero is hardly your typical hero, is he? Heck, Heero is hardly a typical anything. What's more, GW doesn't follow the 'growing stronger' plotline that, for example, the original MS Gundam or Seed series used. No, GW starts out with fully trained soldiers who can kick your butt from episode 1 and will kill you without qualms if the situation requires it. (That's not to say that the characters don't grow, it's the physical growth and capabilities I'm talking about.) What's truly surprising about that is the age of the characters.
This is the second important point I'm trying to make. GW and realism. Many times I hear that GW is realistic. I'm sorry but no. Teens fighting against armies isn't realistic. Teens leading said armies isn't either. Neither is bending steel bars, nor surviving jumping off cliffs or blowing up your suit, nor successfully backflipping from a motorbike onto a clothesline, nor becoming the Queen of the World as a teen, nor stealing a MS carrier plus suit at the age of ten, nor walking around with bazookas at the age of ten nor what have you.
It's safe to say that Gundam Wing lacks any sense of realism. But it does not lack logic.

Realism never was GW's aim to begin with. The way I see it, it's not just the plot or circumstances that prove this but also the "inhumanity" of the characters. Would a real person with a similar background as Heero, Duo or Trowa really exhibit such selflessness or noble-mindedness as them and risk his life for strangers by fighting a war that could end in his death? I don't think so. Would anyone as sheltered as Relena give up her lifestyle, have the guts to go against the world's armed rulers with just words and put her life on the line for the sake of others? Hard to believe.

And that's it. One of the things that contributes to GW's uniqueness and is therefore a, if not the, defining trait of the series, is that it doesn't tell the story about angst-riddled terrorists and princesses but a tale of heroes. The characters are ridiculously noble, strong, selfless, courageous, determined, make the impossible possible and still retain a certain purity, despite having gone through hell and back.
It's what makes them so awesome. It's what makes the series so awesome. Duo isn't badass because he fights in the war. He's badass because he fights "so that no one else will have to" and when you see what he went through, you can only say "wow". Lady Une killed Relena's father and when she is given the opportunity to take revenge, she declines, saying there's been enough bloodshed. That's role model material there. Something that is sorely lacking in a lot of shows nowadays. And something that a lot of idiots seem to miss the point of (I'm referring to those that call the pilots pussies for not killing in EW).

Now, all of this rambling was supposed to lead to my response to Kitsoru's statement that "maybe more people just need to learn how actual manic depressives and people with PTSD act. :P" in relation to Duo's development in FT. I'm not putting words in Kit's mouth but I've noticed a tendency for people to want to apply realism to GW. And as I said before, GW and realism don't have anything to do with each other. So why should I apply it?

What I expect from anything featuring GW's characters is the same "heroic" behavior that was displayed in the series. Sure, the pilots each had a mental burden to carry but it wasn't what defined them. For example, Trowa's insecurity about not having a name or yearning for a home never became the main focus unlike his endless selflessness. And Heero's bitterness about the colonies' betrayal was well hidden under his joining the Treize faction to be able to keep retaliating against OZ. A noble deed to fight on but was it really necessary for him to go for the missions with the lowest chance of survival?

As I said, GW is unique because it is atypical. That encompasses pretty much everything; you have bloody murderers in the role of the 'heroes', noble, honorable 'bad guys' who value life and the ever flashy Gundams that can't even begin to compare to non-flashy Relena's influence and importance to the plot.
So why on earth should I go along with Duo and Wu Fei bickering like kids, like characters from five million other series do? I want my uniqueness. I'm not saying that it isn't a possible outcome for Duo and Wu Fei to become bitter and bicker and argue and not be able to stand each other when they become adults. But considering those two could get along splendidly, it's a letdown.
Duo and Wu Fei are very much alike; they both lost people important to them twice, they both fight partly out of revenge and their loss has had the biggest impact on shaping them into what they are in the series, unlike the other pilots. Heck, they both wear their respective culture's colors for mourning. Despite that, their personalities (or way of dealing) are exact opposites. It's enough to make for a more interesting relationship dynamic between them than what was done in FT and 90% of every GW fanfic.

Heero's regression is the same. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't he frozen because J said something to the extent of "a guy like him would be needed in the future"? I based my assumption on that and on the fact that he wasn't completely pissed off when he woke up, which eliminates the possibility of him having been knocked unconscious and frozen or generally having gone along with it unwillingly. So he agreed. And what would a guy like him be needed for? Killing, apparently.
Now that I think about it, it's quite hilarious. Imagine the guys talking.

Quatre: "That's why we need to kill Relena. And Heero is the only one who can do it."

Everyone: "..."

Duo: "...we're screwed."

I guess it's partly my wish for Heero and everyone else to live a well-deserved 'happily ever after' which makes me have such a knee jerk reaction to all the drama. That and the fact that there was nowhere near as much drama in GW. Nor sap, nor stereotyping, nor "realism". >_>

That's why I say Sumizawa apparently hasn't watched GW in ages. But whether he has forgotten GW or not is, I believe, beside the point. It doesn't change the fact that he's ignoring major character traits. You said it yourself, Kit. Why would Catherine, who stated that she hates war and did everything she could to keep Trowa from fighting, train his clone to become a soldier? (On that note, I was one of the first to comment on that, along with you. So no, you weren't the only one who noticed. )
Sure, being the sole writer of FT means he can take as many creative liberties as he wants. But are they agreeable? Is it okay to ignore what was previously? Shouldn't he, if he is writing a continuation, at the very least try to capture the essence of GW? Because I'm very obviously not the only who thinks FT doesn't feel like GW.
In the end, the novel is called "Gundam Wing: Frozen Teardrop", so I expect it to be Gundam Wing first and then FT. That means he ought to expand GW, not alter it. Am I wrong for demanding this?

Some may ask what gives me the right to verbally attack Sumizawa like this. Well, there's freedom of speech for one. But what's far more important is that I'm doing this because of Episode Zero. It proves that he is (or was) perfectly capable of writing something that adds millions of layers to the characters without contradicting a single thing from the series. If he was able to do that why is he failing so miserably at FT?
Okay, 20 years are a long time and people have a habit of changing. They don't have exactly the same tastes, outlooks or preferences they had 20 years prior. Same with Sumizawa. It's not only that Ikeda and co. are missing, Sumizawa himself isn't the same guy that wrote the script for GW back then anymore. Now, that's okay. I don't have a problem with him putting a personal stamp on the GW universe. What I have a problem with is stomping on it. If it's good, don't change it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Sumizawa is disrespecting his colleagues or their work. But as the head writer of the show I had expected him to treat the source material with more care and not run it over with retcons and meaningless additions. Best example in my opinion being everything surrounding Odin. The world could've definitely done without him supposedly being Heero's father. And having huge hands. xD

Okay, done. Man, I'm an arrogant, little dork that believes to know the series better than its head writer... Oh well.
By the way, I fried my brain with this. If there's a word missing anywhere or sentences just stop.. indulge me. I'll edit later.

[Nishiio]

Originally Posted by Kitsoru

Yup! Asked because there's going to be a (almost) full Gundam Wing pilotsuit group (I'm the Duo) there this year ;D We will probably hit up the Gundam or Bandai panels.

(If anyone else is going and sees me, feel free to say hi btw)

Sweet! It'll be my first time going to Otakon this year so I'm pretty excited. Are you psyched to see Chemistry? =]

I haven't seen GW cosplays in so long! I'll definitely look for you guys this year.

[Kitsoru]

Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna

What's so difficult to understand about this is that is looks like it's the same situation as in EW. Both haven't seen each other for a year and Heero has to kill Relena for the greater good (even if indirectly). But instead of tearing up like in FT, Relena mans up in EW and goes "do it", which shocks Mariemaia.

Mmmm, I feel like the circumstances are different, because in that case it was because she had to show her brave face in front of Mariemaia. You don't show your weakness in front of the enemy, after all. While in this case, she's surrounded by old friends. Does that make sense?

Originally Posted by Nishiio

Sweet! It'll be my first time going to Otakon this year so I'm pretty excited. Are you psyched to see Chemistry? =]
I haven't seen GW cosplays in so long! I'll definitely look for you guys this year.

Oh lord I don't know if I'm gonna have any time to hit up concerts. I wanna hit up Sixh though, even though I'll have no money to buy anything (much less Gundams which are ALWAYS SO MARKED UP ugh I give up, I'll just buy them on HLJ vAv)

But yes, if you see me, say hi! I'll be at the Gundam shoot Friday at 2, inner fountains.