Fate/Zero - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll

[GeostigmataShi]

WELL lancer have many other good trait that can make most woman fall in love with him...
he don't even need the curse LOL

[Goddess Madoka]

Which reminds me... there maybe another factor that pissed the hell out of Kiritsugu.
His Origin bullets.

Up till this point of time, he had thus far used a sizable number of his supply, each of them completely crippling the hell outta' his target.

However, in this instance, his own personal target was the elimination of Lancer and Kayneth. The fact that Lancer's in the game and Saber's sill wounded didn't help matters at all.
That kinda makes the 38th bullet a slight waste...

[Thess]

Originally Posted by blue_sora

Eh, then we have to agree to disagree because I think she is still a bitch because torture is not the way to convince someone to give up his command seals.

There's a magus killer after their asses and they are at war (have you forgotten that last time the hotel they were in was blown up? And that was when he was a competent magus). He insisted very vehemently that no no no out of capricious jealousy (which is clearly in the novels, she's treating him like a child for this). There was no other way to "convince" him. The only thing I think Sola did wrong is the fact she's thinking about oh mr Lancer ooh, because she's entirely justified to ensure their survival, see. It's not as if he felt pain about that finger (he didn't, it's plain clear in the novel) and that she couldn't heal him after. If the three of them weren't trapped in this fateful love triangle BS, he would have given her the command seals without hesitation and she wouldn't have resorted to this (even if she didn't love him). Both of them were being hideous.

Originally Posted by jonli

I don't think any of what you said justifies Sola's actions...AT ALL. You're marrying a man you don't like, but that man (although have a lot of character flaws) is more than decent to you. NOT ONLY do you take a shit on his respect and love to you, you also threaten his life and physically hurt him (right he didn't feel it so it's okay to break his fingers, let's try that on some paralyzed man and see how he feels). No body is asking Sola to return the love, but no body is expecting her to bleed him dry just so that she can have A-Class Lancing done to her.

You seem to have forgotten that they are at war and Kiritsugu is after them. That the last place was destroyed and they nearly all died. He didn't, in fact, he's aware of that and seems to cling on the command seals out of pure jealously. In other words, he's risking them for the sake of his ego.

Sorry, but it's not so white/black.

Her actions are bad, but so are his. Both are motivated by petty reasons.

And, btw, Lancer's also making a huge mistake due to his personal reasons too.

[Key Board]

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

An invisible sword is just an advantage of weaponry. There's nothing dishonorable about that. She even admired Zero Lancer's battle tactics that fooled her.

It's as you said, it's an advantage of weaponry. It's NOT battle tactics. She is hiding her sword so that people have trouble determining its length. She is cheating. And that goes against every stereotypical knight code that I know.

Would be using a gun or poison be honorable to a knight? I don't think so.

She's obviously practicing double standards when it comes to settling scores, either. She doesn't seem to have a problem interrupting Kiritsugu's duel

The idea that honor must be stupid is a weird invention that I really suspect was made to slander what honor represents.

I don't know what you are referring to. but let's say there is a term for that

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulStupid

And I share Kiritsugu's opinion. What if Kayneth used a command seal to force Lancer to kill Kiritsugu

..

[Key Board]

Originally Posted by fedor mma

WTF. Lancer's curse is s C level curse, Saber's magic resistance is A+, she can resist the swag EASILY. Magic resistance have everything to do with it when talking about spells, curses, mystic eyes, etc. Any attachment and respect she shows Lancer is her own. Acknowledged by Kiri? She kinda hates Kiri's guts by now. Saber just wants to have honorable battles, get the Holy Grail and save glorious Britain.

As I've said.. magic resistance has nothing to do with this. She let herself be swayed by his charms. I'm not just talking about his pretty face. He's very suave about his conduct, and it appeals to her. It's not about magic.. it's about chemistry, baby.

But yes, the attachment are obviously hers, and as you said she does have attachments.

And she obviously has insecurity problem when it comes to Kiritsugu. Observe

"I Kiritsugu unsatisfied because I am a woman?"
"Do you have so little faith in my abilities as a Servant?"

..

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I'm not feeling any kind of sexual tension between the two either. They simply respect reach other as fellow knights and abide by the code of chivalry, which is extremely important to the both of them.

Not to mention the Saber fanboys would rage if she was with anyone besides Shirou.

Saber and Lancer share something called "chivalry" - no romanticism involved.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by jonli

We don't know why, or at least I don't since I didn't read the novel, Kiritsugu is acting like this towards Saber. There might be some inner monologue/reason why he doesn't acknowledge Saber as a partner. The roles are reversed, they're just not exact. Where Kiritsugu failed to do Saber probably does it a lot better with Shirou. Characters learning from their mistakes. She probably doesn't realize it but she's in the "god, this guy is so naive" position that Kiritsugu is in now, except that she fell in love/communicated with Shirou and understood/admired him eventually. Fate/Zero, we don't know yet.

They are opposite ends of specter.

Kiritsugu would be by all means necessary which conflicts with her honor. While Shirou (in Fate anyway) is all about saving EVERYONE which conflicts her as a warrior (deaths are acceptable, as long it's fair).

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Not to mention the Saber fanboys would rage if she was with anyone besides Shirou.

Really? I'm pretty sure most people like her with Rin...

[ChronoReverse]

Originally Posted by Key Board

It's as you said, it's an advantage of weaponry. It's NOT battle tactics. She is hiding her sword so that people have trouble determining its length. She is cheating. And that goes against every stereotypical knight code that I know.

WTF. Lancer is using two spears. He has his own advantage of weaponry too. Yet he knows he's honorable and Saber thinks he's honorable too.

For that matter, Excalibur is a sharper sword than an ordinary one. It's cheating to use a strong sword then?

No it is not.

Even in the legends where all the honor and stuff were invented this isn't the case (a gun is entirely different because it's not a weapon driven by the user). The idea that this is dishonorable is a ridiculous conception in the first place.


As for the trope Law Stupid, I'm quite aware of that and I'm pointing out that those who assume being honorable means being stupid are the ones who are mistaken themselves.

[Thess]

Exactly, ChronoReverse. And Gil has how many weapons?

Look, Saber has three Noble Phantasms: Avalon, Excalibur and Invisible Air. She doesn't take out Excalibur since it's her trump card (and besides most of her battles would have ended in one hit kill). She's being fair to use her weakest one against Diarmuid. Plus, it'll out her as Arthur immediately. She was conveniently wounded before she could use Excalibur.

[giorno]

Originally Posted by Thess

Both of them were being hideous.

Except Sola is forced to act like that because Kayneth is such a prick

Her actions are bad, but so are his. Both are motivated by petty reasons.

They aren't motivated by petty reasons, they are motivated by love. Except one is doing what's sensible of someone in her position regardless of motivations, the other isn't...

now, Sola IS kind of a bitch for how she's trying to deceive lancer, but for what she did to Kayneth? She was entirely justified and it was Kayneth's own ego that forced her to go that far

BTW: Sola doesn't need Kayneth alive, in fact, as far as she was concerned, Kayneth dying would have been much better: she no longer has to marry a guy she loathes, and there are no more hindrances between her and lancer anymore. With Kayneth gone, Lancer would no longer have a master which would mean Sola would be free to make a brand new contract with him(and get 3 new command spells instead of inheriting kayneth's 2..). She saved his life because she's not a heartless bitch who revels in Kayneth's suffering, she simply wants him to get out of the way between her and lancer...

and Sola could have resisted Lancer's mole, she simply was smitten with him and choose not to resist the curse...

[Klashikari]

That wouldn't work this way: Sola-ui wasn't chosen by the Holy Grail. Therefore, she wouldn't be able to be Lancer's master without "any external source of command spells".
The fact a master has been defeated doesn't mean anyone can claim their servant. Only Magi with the qualification of Master (due to command spells) can make a contract with stray servants.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

That wouldn't work this way: Sola-ui wasn't chosen by the Holy Grail. Therefore, she wouldn't be able to be Lancer's master without "any external source of command spells".
The fact a master has been defeated doesn't mean anyone can claim their servant. Only Magi with the qualification of Master (due to command spells) can make a contract with stray servants.

A Servant without a master can make a contract with anyone. The "Master" don't actually need a command spell. ref to FSN VN which we can't talk about.

[TwilightsCall]

I'm pretty sure Sola wouldn't have gotten any command spells if she hadn't taken the two from Kayneth. Command Spells aren't something that magically appears as soon as you make a contract with a Servant, they are given out by the grail so you can make a contract with a Servant. Obviously its possible to have such a contract without Command Spells, but that involves a bit more...work then simply creating a contract.

As far as Sola being justified in what she did, while she may have been theoretically right, I hardly see how threatening and essentially torturing Kayneth are in any way justifiable, especially considering she was motivated entirely by her one sided curse-born affection for Lancer. If she was actually concerned with winning the Grail War for her side, then I might be able to consider her actions a bit of a grey area, but there is no way I can consider her actions anything but selfishness.

As far as Kayneth holding back on giving them to her, sure you could call it ego, but considering he knew that Sola had fallen for Lancer's curse, and he already didn't trust Lancer, in the interest of protecting Sola his actions make perfect sense. He clearly understands the real stakes of the War, being ALL of their lives, and he knows that letting Sola have the command spells so she can pursue her selfish love of Lancer -which he clearly understands is her only real goal- doesn't only cripple their chances of winning, but of surviving at all.

EDIT: Two posts made while I was typing, too lazy to change mine though :x

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by TwilightsCall

I'm pretty sure Sola wouldn't have gotten any command spells if she hadn't taken the two from Kayneth. Command Spells aren't something that magically appears as soon as you make a contract with a Servant, they are given out by the grail so you can make a contract with a Servant. Obviously its possible to have such a contract without Command Spells (see Kuzuki and SN Caster), but that involves a bit more...work then simply creating a contract.

As far as Sola being justified in what she did, while she may have been theoretically right, I hardly see how threatening and essentially torturing Kayneth are in any way justifiable, especially considering she was motivated entirely by her one sided curse-born affection for Lancer. If she was actually concerned with winning the Grail War for her side, then I might be able to consider her actions a bit of a grey area, but there is no way I can consider her actions anything but selfishness.

As far as Kayneth holding back on giving them to her, sure you could call it ego, but considering he knew that Sola had fallen for Lancer's curse, and he already didn't trust Lancer, in the interest of protecting Sola his actions make perfect sense. He clearly understands the real stakes of the War, being ALL of their lives, and he knows that letting Sola have the command spells so she can pursue her selfish love of Lancer -which he clearly understands is her only real goal- doesn't only cripple their chances of winning, but of surviving at all.

EDIT: Two posts made while I was typing, too lazy to change mine though :x

just to clarify, Sola fall for Lancer not his curse. Any mage with at least one Magic circuit running can shield themselves form Lancer's curse. The defense itself is on auto, for the curse to affect Sola, she would have to deliberately lower her defense against it.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

A Servant without a master can make a contract with anyone. The "Master" don't actually need a command spell. ref to FSN VN which we can't talk about.

I guess I went a bit fast with the broad definition of Master.
In theory, it is indeed not required, although in practice, one would need appropriate measures so the servant actually obey to that magus. By definition, anyone can have a parternership with a servant so long they can provide prana, but without command spells, you can't exactly consider them master because they are by no mean in position to command them. Which means: Sola-ui position wouldn't change as it is now, since she would still provide prana, but doesn't have command spells.

[zRyuu]

Originally Posted by Key Board

It's as you said, it's an advantage of weaponry. It's NOT battle tactics. She is hiding her sword so that people have trouble determining its length. She is cheating. And that goes against every stereotypical knight code that I know.

Would be using a gun or poison be honorable to a knight? I don't think so.

All servants hide their trump card (noble phantams), that doesn't mean they are not honorable. Advantage of weaponry. uhm? Lancer has the advantage of his two spears both of which have a special power, giving him that advantage doesn't mean he is not honorable.

Originally Posted by Key Board

As I've said.. magic resistance has nothing to do with this. She let herself be swayed by his charms. I'm not just talking about his pretty face. He's very suave about his conduct, and it appeals to her. It's not about magic.. it's about chemistry, baby.

This is irrelevant for Saber. She is a knight, and she doesn't care at all about such things. Her only desire is to win the war, get the holy grail, and save Britain. It's pretty clear how Saber is in Fate/Stay Night and Fate/Zero. She wants to win, but she fights with honor. Therefore, she wants to end the fight she and Lancer started, and she obviously disagrees with Kiritsugu's way of fighting, specially when it's about Lancer, because then there'd be no duel and no honor in that victory. She does indeed want to get acknowledged by Kiritsugu. She obviously wants to stop being used as a decoy while Kiritsugu snipes the Master, whose servant she is fighting with. Why? Because she doesn't want such a dishonorable victory, so she wouldn't accept an end like that for a fight against Lancer/Rider (the honorable servants on this war so far).

[Kokukirin]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

just to clarify, Sola fall for Lancer not his curse. Any mage with at least one Magic circuit running can shield themselves form Lancer's curse. The defense itself is on auto, for the curse to affect Sola, she would have to deliberately lower her defense against it.

Where does it say that a magic circuit is all that is needed to shield Lancer's curse? I know it's not powerful like FSN Rider's eyes, but it should still affect those with lower rank magic resistance.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Kokukirin

Where does it say that a magic circuit is all that is needed to shield Lancer's curse? I know it's not powerful like FSN Rider's eyes, but it should still affect those with lower rank magic resistance.

The novel, Kayneth's inner dialogue state that Sola would not be affected by Lancer unless she choose to be.

Spoiler for form the novel:

The scintillating mole under Lancer's left eye caught his attention. Is that the fabled "tear mole" of Diarmuid ua Duibhne that attracted females?
No, baseless suspicion is stupid. Even a commoner would know that Sola was the daughter of the renowned Sophia-Ri family. Even though she doe not possess a magic crest, she still has very strong resistance against this type of charm spell.
Unless, she herself does not willingly resist this type of charm, then--

[Thess]

Originally Posted by TwilightsCall

As far as Kayneth holding back on giving them to her, sure you could call it ego, but considering he knew that Sola had fallen for Lancer's curse, and he already didn't trust Lancer, in the interest of protecting Sola his actions make perfect sense. He clearly understands the real stakes of the War, being ALL of their lives, and he knows that letting Sola have the command spells so she can pursue her selfish love of Lancer -which he clearly understands is her only real goal- doesn't only cripple their chances of winning, but of surviving at all.

Sola seems motivated by the same thing: love for Lancer (there's a lot in the novel that portrays her as a cold, frozen person who had resigned to be a tool to her family, she had no expectations of love or freedom by her upbringing, so she was almost dead inside, then Lancer appeared and she felt alive and unfrozen for the first time) and she reacts when Kayneth began to badmouths him all the time (and Lancer stands up for him. It's hilarious). If Kayneth dies, there's a chance Lancer will follow. She is truly in love with him.

The three of them are a messy team because of their emotional motivations.

Lancer's love (loyalty) to Kayneth and mistrust on Sola's motivations, he rejects her as Master as we have seen (aka he doesn't form a contract). As much as I feel bad for him, his actions are a bit on the stupid side...

Kayneth is the same. He clearly knows he can't win like this and what she's saying is sensible, but his jealousy blinded him, like his paranoia towards Lancer. Take a look at this:

Spoiler for novel reasoning:

Sola's rank as a magus is severely inferior to Kayneth. However, Waver who summoned Alexander, and the bloodthirsty murderer who formed a contract with Caster; those whose participations as Masters were completely out of the question, were still in this Holy Grail war. As for battle tactics, even for Sola, it is not entirely impossible for her to win through the battles.

And then, when it comes to using a Servant, Command Spells which make them submit to the Master are indispensable. But still...

Kayneth remembered. The hot look Sola had whilst gazing at Lancer had at the hotel late at night after his first battle ended. An intoxicated glance as if she was dreaming, something not shown to him, her fiance, before.

If she was merely fascinated by a handsome man, then that is still excusable. It is just a small, problematic indisposition a woman has. Her admiration towards man to that extent was something which he, as her husband, could not help with.

Yet, Lancer was said to be a case of “not just an ordinary handsome guy”.

I don't need to bring up Sola's actions since she's been already criticized to death here. I agree her motivations were wrong, but I don't think Kayneth would have given her the seals otherwise (he childishly refused even if he understood it was logical). Because his motivations were wrong too. Wrong in the context of the war that's building around them.

It's not so black and white. The three of them are being blinded by the love triangle stuff. It's not only Sola's fault. They should have included a therapist in their team.

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by Thess

Sola seems motivated by the same thing: love for Lancer (there's a lot in the novel that portrays her as a cold, frozen person who had resigned to be a tool to her family, she had no expectations of love or freedom by her upbringing, so she was almost dead inside, then Lancer appeared and she felt alive and unfrozen for the first time) and she reacts when Kayneth began to badmouths him all the time (and Lancer stands up for him. It's hilarious). If Kayneth dies, there's a chance Lancer will follow. She is truly in love with him.

The three of them are a messy team because of their emotional motivations.

Lancer's love (loyalty) to Kayneth and mistrust on Sola's motivations, he rejects her as Master as we have seen (aka he doesn't form a contract). As much as I feel bad for him, his actions are a bit on the stupid side...

Kayneth is the same. He clearly knows he can't win like this and what she's saying is sensible, but his jealousy blinded him, like his paranoia towards Lancer. Take a look at this:

Spoiler for novel reasoning:

Sola's rank as a magus is severely inferior to Kayneth. However, Waver who summoned Alexander, and the bloodthirsty murderer who formed a contract with Caster; those whose participations as Masters were completely out of the question, were still in this Holy Grail war. As for battle tactics, even for Sola, it is not entirely impossible for her to win through the battles.

And then, when it comes to using a Servant, Command Spells which make them submit to the Master are indispensable. But still...

Kayneth remembered. The hot look Sola had whilst gazing at Lancer had at the hotel late at night after his first battle ended. An intoxicated glance as if she was dreaming, something not shown to him, her fiance, before.

If she was merely fascinated by a handsome man, then that is still excusable. It is just a small, problematic indisposition a woman has. Her admiration towards man to that extent was something which he, as her husband, could not help with.

Yet, Lancer was said to be a case of “not just an ordinary handsome guy”.

I don't need to bring up Sola's actions since she's been already criticized to death here. I agree her motivations were wrong, but I don't think Kayneth would have given her the seals otherwise (he childishly refused even if he understood it was logical). Because his motivations were wrong too. Wrong in the context of the war that's building around them.

It's not so black and white. The three of them are being blinded by the love triangle stuff. It's not only Sola's fault. They should have included a therapist in their team.

It is pretty funny, and I had never thought about it. Most love trianges have B and C in love with A, and A has a problem. Here, you have A in love with B, B in love with C, and C in love with A ( well, Lancer is more about loyalty, but whatever). A more perfect triangle, ironically.