Shin Sekai Yori - Episode 15 Discussion / Poll

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Solace

I don't mind translations that try to deal with quirks like this. It's not canon, but at the same time, it works for the intended purpose. Literal translations may be preferred by some, but sometimes it's better to preserve flow/meaning than accuracy.

Nobody here is campaigning for literal translations, though? The problem is precisely that "Cantus" preserves nothing, goes against the flow, and has no meaning in context of the story - or rather, its meaning makes no sense in the context of the story.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Nobody here is campaigning for literal translations, though? The problem is precisely that "Cantus" preserves nothing, goes against the flow, and has no meaning in context of the story - or rather, its meaning makes no sense in the context of the story.

I don't find a problem with it, but what would you use, if you were translating?

[Rakshasa]

Originally Posted by Solace

I don't find a problem with it, but what would you use, if you were translating?

You really need to look closer at the kanji 呪 and what connection it has to the rest of the story. Make note of the reference to 'mantra' from buddism.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%91%AA

Basically mantra power even though that doesn't really roll well of the tongue.

However the use of 'cantus' completely misses the very foundation of the word used, e.g. the meditative chanting, and tries to replace it with a word that through its etymology would be interpreted as a singing chanting.

[Solace]

....I know what it means. I can Google too. That wasn't my question. If another word was used in place of Cantus, what would you choose? Would you go literal, would you stick with the Japanese word, would you risk using an awkward English word, would you make one up, etc.

I understand kuromitsu's point, which is that Cantus is being used "officially" when it isn't even an accurate translation, however my argument is that it's a difficult concept to translate into English using common words like psychic or power (it is those things, but it also carries more meaning than that). So I simply stated that I was personally fine with it for the purpose of fan subs. It's a very liberal translation, but I think most people are comfortable with the role the word has tried to play.

[Archon_Wing]

Aside from the lousy animation, this episode is a great example of how to present a story. It really did a good job of making Squealer and co a shady bunch at best and whatever intentions they might have, it's definitely ominous.

The episode didn't slam these things in your face, but wasted no time in making every moment counted.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Solace

I don't find a problem with it, but what would you use, if you were translating?

Most probably simply "Power." I'm sure a native speaker blessed with more creativity than I am could come up with a really cool translation, but as far as I'm concerned "Power" is enough to convey what it needs to convey. (Especially since they use it normally in everyday conversation.)

Originally Posted by Solace

I understand kuromitsu's point, which is that Cantus is being used "officially" when it isn't even an accurate translation, however my argument is that it's a difficult concept to translate into English using common words like psychic or power (it is those things, but it also carries more meaning than that).

Again, "juryoku" is not a very special term that needs a very special translation. It's an existing word with an existing meaning that needs to be adapted to this particular context. Sure, in this particular context it has a delicate overtone, but it's not emphasized in the way say, "bakenezumi" is, and is made very obvious in other ways. And FWIW as I said earlier, my main problem with "Cantus" is not that it's inaccurate - it's that it's inaccurate in a "what does this word have to do with anything?" way. 1) It's a word that is alien to its own context, 2) it's not even an actual translation but the fansubbers' translator arbitrarily assigning a name to the concept, and 3) to make it worse, it's an existing word with an actual meaning that the subbers obviously haven't even thought about.

"Cantus" in this show is like... having a story set in, say, a fantasy version of medieval Northern Europe, where people have psychokinesis power, except they never call it "power" or anything, they call it "Keiyaku." (Or something. I was reading Darker than Black.) "Guys, I just found Thorwald's sled buried under the snow!" "Wait Thorsteinn, I'll dig it out with my Keiyaku!" etc.

What? It sounds fancy!

Originally Posted by Solace

So I simply stated that I was personally fine with it for the purpose of fan subs. It's a very liberal translation, but I think most people are comfortable with the role the word has tried to play.

Let's be honest, though, most people would be comfortable with pretty much anything. They could've called it the Force and people would care only as long as they make a Star Wars joke. That doesn't mean that the translation is good. And I wouldn't even care, except for the fact that it has become the "official" term that everyone uses, since everyone watches the fansubbed version. Last time I looked at the English Wikipedia entry it had Cantus and Queerats and so on. (I'm kind of glad the show doesn't have a fandom...)

[Solace]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Most probably simply "Power." I'm sure a native speaker blessed with more creativity than I am could come up with a really cool translation, but as far as I'm concerned "Power" is enough to convey what it needs to convey. (Especially since they use it normally in everyday conversation.)

Again, "juryoku" is not a very special term that needs a very special translation. It's an existing word with an existing meaning that needs to be adapted to this particular context. Sure, in this particular context it has a delicate overtone, but it's not emphasized in the way say, "bakenezumi" is, and is made very obvious in other ways. And FWIW as I said earlier, my main problem with "Cantus" is not that it's inaccurate - it's that it's inaccurate in a "what does this word have to do with anything?" way. 1) It's a word that is alien to its own context, 2) it's not even an actual translation but the fansubbers' translator arbitrarily assigning a name to the concept, and 3) to make it worse, it's an existing word with an actual meaning that the subbers obviously haven't even thought about.

"Cantus" in this show is like... having a story set in, say, a fantasy version of medieval Northern Europe, where people have psychokinesis power, except they never call it "power" or anything, they call it "Keiyaku." (Or something. I was reading Darker than Black.) "Guys, I just found Thorwald's sled buried under the snow!" "Wait Thorsteinn, I'll dig it out with my Keiyaku!" etc.

What? It sounds fancy!

I would actually find "power" too redundant and general. The Japanese word clearly has specific meaning. It would be possible to make it work if you took the time to focus on the best translation possible, or had access to information through more official means. This reminds me of the Madoka translations where some groups used Puella Magi, and some didn't.

On the other hand, I do agree with your point on "what does this word have to do with anything". There is no explanation of the word in the show. Why is it called Cantus? You won't find that answer given just by watching. This is what I mean by lost in translation, and probably why just going with "power" seems like the easiest "out" rather than trying to translate a word that expresses multiple concepts when there isn't really an English equivalent that flows well.

So you have three options as a translator in such a situation:

1. Use the original Japanese word, but leave a TL note.
2. Go with the closest neighbor even if the translation won't carry the same meaning, for the sake of accuracy.
3. Attempt to create a translation that carries the meaning even if it's not accurate, even if you have to be very loose and liberal, or just make something up.

The biggest offender here is that Cantus is an already existing word in English, and it doesn't mean what the translators were trying to capture from the Japanese translation. Queerats works, even if it's not that accurate, but Cantus doesn't, because the translator "created" it from the translation without seemingly knowing that it already existed in English.

So like I said, I get your point, but this is really just a translation goof that tends to happen from time to time. It's really not a big deal that it's called Cantus, unless your goal or peeve is accuracy. On the other hand, it's a fansub, and I don't expect a fansub to be perfect during the initial airing. Scripts tend to be corrected when the BR's come out (for the serious groups anyway), so it's possible that Cantus will be dropped then. It's a bit hard to change it now in mid-airing considering the "damage" has already been done.

Just be thankful our only option isn't Hadena. Ugh.

Let's be honest, though, most people would be comfortable with pretty much anything. They could've called it the Force and people would care only as long as they make a Star Wars joke. That doesn't mean that the translation is good. And I wouldn't even care, except for the fact that it has become the "official" term that everyone uses, since everyone watches the fansubbed version. Last time I looked at the English Wikipedia entry it had Cantus and Queerats and so on. (I'm kind of glad the show doesn't have a fandom...)

This tends to happen with a lot of translated anime. It's even worse when poor spelling factors into it, because many people can barely spell English words correctly, let alone something like Japanese. It's always fun reading a Bleach conversation and seeing six different spellings and translations for spirit power and such.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Solace

I would actually find "power" too redundant and general. The Japanese word clearly has specific meaning. It would be possible to make it work if you took the time to focus on the best translation possible, or had access to information through more official means.

The Japanese word means, in a general sense*, "magical power/force" (and for that matter it's used in a number of fantasy works, including anime, manga, games, light novels, etc). It's specialness in Shinsekai yori comes from the author's careful consideration of the words he uses for his concepts, playing on meanings inherent in kanji, and of course the fact that here it's not "magic" per se. As such, I don't think it's a word that needs a very special translation. That would be just overcomplicating things. It's a word the characters use often, in everyday conversation, to describe something that comes natural to them. The ironic overtone that momonae mentioned is not something you can express in English in a way that it doesn't sound silly or forced, so personally I'd prefer a simple and elegant solution that conveys the point without being distracting.

Then again, as I said, a native English speaker with more creativity than I have could come up with something better - I wouldn't particularly care as long as it's not something jarringly out of place like "Cantus" or anything else that goes against the naming patterns, or anything inaccurate like "magic." Then again, they use the word 呪文 "spell" so... *shrug* (That said, I'm curious how the author himself would translate it. We'll probably never know. )

*(Of course there's the more specific "transcendental/supernatural, impersonal force present in humans, animals, objects, etc. of which magic is formed" but that's not how it's used in this story.)

Originally Posted by Solace

So you have three options as a translator in such a situation:

1. Use the original Japanese word, but leave a TL note.
2. Go with the closest neighbor even if the translation won't carry the same meaning, for the sake of accuracy.
3. Attempt to create a translation that carries the meaning even if it's not accurate, even if you have to be very loose and liberal, or just make something up.

I would very strongly oppose 1. and 3. - this is what I mean by overcomplicating it. There's no point whatsoever in leaving the word in Japanese (that would be like "according to keikaku" ), and there's no "special meaning" that needs to be expressed at the expense of going very loose and liberal. The kind of "special meaning" momonae was talking about is something like this - remember when they had to form pairs? The pairs are called 当番委員 "touban iin" "duty team" (not literally) and as the narration informs us, the event was, in practice, a way for students to make an open love confession. In the book Saki wonders if it was a way to facilitate/control romantic relationships between students. She reaches this conclusion after looking up the word 当番 "touban" in a dictionary, and finding that 番 "ban" has the reading 番い "tsugai." Now, 番い means, among other things, a pair as a unit of two things, but also more specifically a pair of male and female, husband and wife; also the verb "番う" "tsugau" means "to pair" but also "to mate" (as in, have sex). So yeah. In this particular case there's the easy solution of using "pair" which can have the same "male-female" implications in English, but as for more? good luck with it and hope it will make sense/won't be too jarring/complicated/in-your-face (since the entire point is that it's all subtext).

Originally Posted by Solace

So like I said, I get your point, but this is really just a translation goof that tends to happen from time to time. It's really not a big deal that it's called Cantus, unless your goal or peeve is accuracy. On the other hand, it's a fansub, and I don't expect a fansub to be perfect during the initial airing. Scripts tend to be corrected when the BR's come out (for the serious groups anyway), so it's possible that Cantus will be dropped then. It's a bit hard to change it now in mid-airing considering the "damage" has already been done.

Again - I wouldn't mind, if the entire English speaking audience wasn't using it as if it was the canon term for the concept. :/ And this, unfortunately, all but guarantees its staying power. It's just incredibly grating. (I know, I know.)

Originally Posted by Solace

Just be thankful our only option isn't Hadena. Ugh.

I think I'm happy that I don't know what you refer to.

Originally Posted by Solace

This tends to happen with a lot of translated anime. It's even worse when poor spelling factors into it, because many people can barely spell English words correctly, let alone something like Japanese. It's always fun reading a Bleach conversation and seeing six different spellings and translations for spirit power and such.

And then there the groups who translate from Chinese... I remember watching a Bleach episode where about 70% of the subs had absolutely nothing to do with what the characters were saying.

[Guido]

This episode taught me that no matter how knowledge is used for to advance any means via science, politics, religion, or ideology, if it's taken literally too far away, at the end, double standards, treachery, barbarism, war mongering, and organized deceit eventually will emerge.

The helpless Bakenezumi from the Robber Fly colony, which was at the brink of extinction had not been for the aid of both Saki and Satoru seven years ago, have radically changed.
Their society and hierarchy is just one or a few steps behind that of humans in the 21st century. They know now how to build houses of concrete and to build factories for waste disposal and armament of weapons.

Saki's conjecture at this time may be unfounded but not farfetch'd; there's a strong possibility that Squealer and other Bakenezumi got themselves across with a fake minoshiro and made it talk by accident about the history of the world from the ancient days of the original human civilization which was borned without Cantus.
As a result, the robber fly colony benefited tremendously from the discovery of industrialization and mechanical technologies. Their only hindrance at that time was not being able to cope with their queen's deranged mental lapses but learning about rights and self worth from studying ancient human history, then they themselves acquired their own value of self-determination to put their queen in her place.

If they manage to do that, what else lies in store for a bleak future where humans are conditioned at not being able to harm or cause the death of other humans for fear that their Cantus will go out of control turning them into fiends and/or Karma Demons?

If the Bakenezumi, could have grasped from the fake minoshiro any knowledge about how humanity evolved into the present timeline, then they might be able to devise or find a way to circumnavigate the village's strongest power acting as for the moment as their only offensive and defensive prowess: their Cantus.

Imagine, if the Bakenezumi can successfully forced the same vicious treatment they impose to appease their Queen on the humans?

Squealer, probably, began having his doubts seven years ago when he met for the first time both Saki and Satoru as children. Recall, at that time the kids were still children and got accidentally involved with the invasion of the Bakenezumi colonies?
Recall, at the climax of that arc how the kid Satoru got strained and fatigued from overusing his Cantus, and Squealer doubt for a brief moment in time about their gods maybe not being gods and all-powerful as the Bakenezumi so devoutly professed since ancient times? This scenario came to happen when child Saki had still her Cantus sealed and couldn't do anything at that time to help while Satoru fell from exhaustion after straining himself from overuse of his Cantus.

The more a society advances technologically, in the medicine field, becoming politically complex, and socially more active, then the more superstition and religion is discarded with the passage of time, as democracy becomes more prominent and the individuals for each generation demand equal rights and social justice.

The advancement and progress the Bakenezumi from the Robber Fly colony should and must be taken as a first sign of alarm to Saki and report it to the village, if she gets the chance to do so. Sure, humans have Cantus, and one of them can easily wipe out the colony with ease along with its inhabitants. However, if the Bakenezumi continue to become more awakened in knowledge and learn more and more, then perhaps one day they'll find something as leverage to use against the humans; they'll start realizing humans are not the so professed Gods they thought them to be in their era of ignorance.
They'll soon see their (humans) species as tyrants, opressors, and bullies that have treating the Bakenezumi species as either disposable trash or lackeys to do most of their dirty work for the humans.

The more the Bakenezumi learn about human history and its present evolution, then the more likely they will find a solution to surpass the Cantus problem, or perhaps the best way to finally bring down that barrier is to plot and deceive against the unsuspecting humans from the village.

Knowledge is based upon testing things through trial and error, and that process starts through observing how things and living beings react, then gathering the data until either the solution is found, or the proposed theory is scientifically proven right on its own.

And, what would be the best way for the Bakenezumi to test if the humans are really Gods or not but by observing their children during their infant stages when they're still kids and, therefore, neither their Cantus has yet manifested at all nor they have control of it.
If the Bakenezumi are given any small chance to prove themselves right about doubting humans so called God-hood, then village can kiss good-bye to their days of being the masters.
The Bakenezumi will start devising and conspiring in secret ways at how to get the human children alone and separated, then attack to kill them in order to put in jeopardy the human progeny.

Or, better yet for worse, targeting then capturing the human children and giving them the hell treatment they did against their queen, so as to keep them mentally docile but securing them as weapons to use against the village.

[jeroz]

It's such a huge surprise that the Robber Fly colony is able to rebuild and becomes a stronghold within just 2 years. As much as some might say that Squealer could be acting for the benefit of his society, he just came across as a backstabbing manipulative coward that's even worse than the infamous Kyubey. Not just a punch to the face, I want to strangle and torture him for all the things he'd done.

The world of SSY is a decaying one. Like many had already said above, I feel great sadness that Saki had to shoulder the responsibility to carry her village forward. Not to mention what possible cruelty she will witness next episode while she's just at 14 years of age.


Though I do find it quite cute how that rat is putting out fire with snow.