F/SN UBW TV - Episode 22 Spoiler Discussion / Poll

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by Thess

The scene she's clearly crying in pain, upset and tells him to stop? While Shirou doesn't listen and rapes her? You need to make mental gymnastics to think that wasn't noncon. Please don't excuse that poorly written, out of character piece of crap in my presence.

Hoo boy, go back and read that piece of work. Sakura's the only heroine whose h scenes with Shirou were fully consensual (Saber had the second one, but the first one is dub con).

Um... no. Rin is tsundere in bed. Yes, they didn't do much foreplay, yes she cries and yes, she says it hurts... and then she says it feels good. Yes, she tells him to stop... because otherwise she'll go crazy from pleasure. It's typical tsundere sex, like in many other h-mangas. I'm not saying Shirou isn't rough or that it's a well written scene, but saying it was nonconsensual and calling it rape is nonsense.

Originally Posted by Thess

He even covers her mouth so he "won't listen to her complains."

And that is complete bullshit. I don't know if your memory is just playing tricks with you or if you intentionally want to give people who didn't read that scene a wrong impression, but that didn't happen.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Are you sure you don't mix it up with Tsukihime?

Are you sure you played FSN? Same goes to the person above. You guys have funny memories of this terrible scene. Did it traumatize you so much you misremember it? Here a helpful memory jolt:



I don't give a damn about "i-it's expected of h-manga tsundere sex", to any sane person, no is no, and this is rape and, if it wanted to be this "tsundere sex", the scene was poorly written and made Shirou a rapist. It's ok if that's your fetish, I get it, but calling it consensual is blatantly wrong.

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by Thess

Are you sure you played FSN? Same goes to the person above. You guys have funny memories of this terrible scene. Did it traumatize you so much you misremember it?

Nope, reread that scene five minutes ago. Maybe you should do that too, instead of telling people lies about rape.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Lorhand

Nope, reread that scene five minutes ago. Maybe you should do that too, instead of telling people lies about rape.

I've finished replaying it last night. Maybe you really don't know what consent means. The scene starts fine and then Shirou undermines her consent and don't give me the bullcrap of... "she started to feel pleasure" later, because she clearly told him to stop and she was in pain and Shirou disregarded her wishes, didn't stop or slow down. Go look up rape and you'll find that as example: "If you had already started (sex), and then you say no, and your partner keeps going, that is rape. No means stop." By definition, Shirou raped Rin. Let's not even bring the disturbing mindset he was about wishing to take her "by force." It was gross and out of character of Shirou. If was a creepy protagonist like Shiki, sure, no problem, but Shirou?

Nasu did everyone a favor to boot this scene from continuity.

[dmaxzero]

Why is this even important.

[The Green One]

Because Thess thinks it is.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by dmaxzero

Why is this even important.

Because it seems that shippers can't deal with the common known fact of FSN sex scenes were badly written and cry over the improvement Realta Nua mostly brought to us. Sea life crest scene is twenty times more romantic and better written than rap-oh sorry, non-consensual tsundere scene. And it's more in character.

[The Green One]

Putting aside your bizzare insistence on the scene being rape, I do agree that the sex scenes are poorly written and can be done without for the most part.

[GreyZone]

Must have forgotten about that line. Probably because the scene was just so awkwardly bad in general that this line was overshadowed by it.

The only sex scenes that are necessary for the story are MAYBE the first one in HF (without details), but DEFINITLY the last one in HF, because otherwise Sakura's thoughts afterward make no sense at all. To be fair even in RN that seemed to have been vague enough to be a "fade to black scene" without outright stating it.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by The Green One

Putting aside your bizzare insistence on the scene being rape, I do agree that the sex scenes are poorly written and can be done without for the most part.

It was rape, it's disgusting and disturbing that the fanbase refuses to acknowledge it for what it is and dismiss it as cute tsundere sex scene which troubles me profoundly. I have zero problems with dubcon or noncon in fiction (I didn't have a problem in Tsukihime, but in Fate, it seems like a gratuitous and out of character where the characters were possessed by generic hentai-doujinshi characterizations, more than the dubcon and noncon itself). For the record, Fate first scene is just as bad too, because Saber's consent is frankly dubious, but at least it's framed as "we do this or die" when Rin started molesting Saber more than Shirou's sick desires of domination and forceful mindset. I would have found it more ic and palatable if Shirou didn't stop because "if we don't do this, Gilgamesh will end the world, Tohsaka!" or something like that. But that was never brought up, something at least to show he had to do this that way.

I guess it irritates me to see fans favoring a grating and out of character scene because "it has sex!" as that make it more 'mature' and 'better' for the relationship over a quite in character interaction that actually has a meaningful exchange when Shirou sees her memories. The h scene had to go not because of the sex part, but because of the shoddy characterization, imo.

[The Green One]

Thess you can harp on this all you want. I don't agree that this was rape and never will. This wasn't a case of stop doing it, it was stop doing it badly. Neither of them had any experience and it showed. They don't have to say that if they don't do this Gilgamesh will destroy the world, they both know that from the start and that's why they're doing it in the first place! That's why it was suggested in the first place to give themselves a fighting chance! It would be hentai doujin characteristics if two virgins were somehow amazing at sex and did it perfectly on their first time. The sex scenes undeniably are bad. I completely agree with that, but for pete's sake get out of your delusional world and stop trying to twist this into something it isn't. I haven't played this game in years and I remember the scene better than you.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Thess

I guess it irritates me to see fans favoring a grating and out of character scene because "it has sex!" as that make it more 'mature' and 'better' for the relationship over a quite in character interaction that actually has a meaningful exchange when Shirou sees her memories. The h scene had to go not because of the sex part, but because of the shoddy characterization, imo.

That's a fair point. But I don't understand why they couldn't have at least left the kiss in.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by The Green One

Thess you can harp on this all you want. I don't agree that this was rape and never will. This wasn't a case of stop doing it, it was stop doing it badly.

No, Rin wanted him to stop at one point when he became forceful. You haven't played the scene in years, maybe you should replay it.

Originally Posted by The Green One

Neither of them had any experience and it showed. They don't have to say that if they don't do this Gilgamesh will destroy the world, they both know that from the start and that's why they're doing it in the first place! That's why it was suggested in the first place to give themselves a fighting chance!

That should have been in Shirou's thoughts more than "I want to take Tohsaka by force."

Originally Posted by GreyZone

That's a fair point. But I don't understand why they couldn't have at least left the kiss in.

For some reason Nasu removed the kiss scene in Realta Nua. Maybe he thought Rin wouldn't go so fast? They did take a month, after that, in locking arms. I guess they could have added it anyways, but I hope it's because they plan to add a kiss scene in the end?

[The Green One]

Alright Thess, lets stop here and agree to disagree. We clearly don't see eye to eye on this.

[Levani]

I too agree with Thess that the damn scene was "rapey" and ridiculously out of character for Shirou. When someone tells you to stop, you stop. Period.

[Fizix]

Originally Posted by Levani

I too agree with Thess that the damn scene was "rapey" and ridiculously out of character for Shirou. When someone tells you to stop, you stop. Period.

I had this elsewhere but just ignored it because its pointless when people don't understand that no means no whether its said before or during.

[Pegasai]

Originally Posted by Fizix

I had this elsewhere but just ignored it because its pointless when people don't understand that no means no whether its said before or during.

I actually played FSN again a few weeks ago (mainly to compare it to the anime).

The sex scene was so poorly written and I only skimmed it (even the beginning parts of the scene were cringe-inducing), but the mood, at least, was more indicative of "tsundere sex," if there is such a term, than actual rape. First of all, it's important to note that Rin kept alternating between saying no and yes. Moreover, the final part of the scene (where Rin yells at him "I told you to be gentle, you beast!") suggests that Rin was displeased with Shirou's roughness, not with the actual act of sex itself. If Rin were a real person and if anyone were to ask her of her opinion later on, she would almost certainly (and honestly) say that she was not raped, but was highly dissatisfied with Shirou's performance.

However, if we're going to go strictly by-the-book, given that "no" was said, then yes, it would and should be classified as rape. The scene was incredibly tasteless...

[Levani]

Even so, that "Fake Shirou" narrated some disturbing crap.

[HtwoN]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Are you sure you don't mix it up with Tsukihime?

No, I'm pretty sure she didn't.

Btw, I agree with Thess here. The sex scene in the VN is really bad...

[Rava]

Sounds like Rin needs that A+ Riding skill to make Shirou behave better.