Do new anime fans watch older shows?

[Sackett]

Originally Posted by 0cean

The point is, if you want newcomers to watch it, it has to be good entertainment. If it isn't, everything else doesn't matter. And the further you go back in time, the less entertainment value there is. This means saying "old anime suck" holds true. What I'm arguing is that stuff from 2009 or 2001 or 1994 or 1983 isn't old and therefore doesn't suck.

Also, I think we shouldn't try too hard to make younger audiences like the stuff we liked at their age. After all, I didn't appreciate my forefathers doing this to me, making me read boring as fuck literary "masterpieces" in school. To the point where I nearly associated the words masterpiece and classic as something I should stay the hell away from.

You are making a sweeping assessment that simply does not make any sense.

Old anime is not intrinsically less entertaining than new anime. Why should it be? For what reason? This doesn't hold true for any other medium. I mean, you're not claiming that Beethoven is intrinsically less entertaining than Frank Sinatra who is intrinsically less entertaining than Taylor Swift are you?

What about movies? I mean, Casablanca still tends to top the charts for best movie of all time despite being much older. Is Ant Man intrinsically more entertaining than Casablanca just because it's newer?

Now you may prefer Taylor Swift or Ant Man, but that's a matter of preference, not a matter of intrinsic worth.

You comment about hating classics and literary masterpieces suggests that you have a significant bias that is prejudicing your assessment of entertainment value.

I for one was very grateful to my father for having me read all his favorites. Really, Count of Monte Cristo is a great novel. Swiss Family Robinson, Treasure Island, etc. I'd hate to have never read those just because their old. Heck, Lord of the Rings is rather old material to. Is the latest fantasy book (probably a ripoff of Lord of the Rings) better than Lord of the Rings?

Closer to the topic at hand, you do realize that most of the classic Looney Tunes shorts date from World War II. Are you really claiming this has lost it's entertainment value?

I mean, a few of the shorts have (notably the blackface jokes), but the majority? Elmer Fudd hunting Bugs Bunny is just as funny as ever.

[kanoguti]

If people want to watch old shows, they will. It's easier to watch 90's shows now than it was back in 2008.
Even if they're autistic preteens (most anime fans) they'll still eventually gravitate towards good shows, regardless of how "old" they look.

[0cean]

Old anime is intrinsically less entertaining than new anime. You have to take off your nostalgia glasses to see it, though. The existence of this entire thread proves it. If it wasn't less entertaining, than why would audiences stay away from it? And don't go making excuses now. Old subbed anime these days are incredibly easy to get. Easier than it ever was. Ask yourself this: which has an higher entertainment value, a show that a dozen people really like or a show that a million people really like? The entertainment business is, sadly, a numbers game and won't cater to my specific interests. If they could just loop all their shows every 40 years without ever having to produce new stuff, they surely would do just that.

I'm also still waiting for all those anime from before 1977 that are as awesome as, say, Evangelion.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by 0cean

Old anime is intrinsically less entertaining than new anime. You have to take off your nostalgia glasses to see it, though. The existence of this entire thread proves it. If it wasn't less entertaining, than why would audiences stay away from it? And don't go making excuses now. Old subbed anime these days are incredibly easy to get. Easier than it ever was. Ask yourself this: which has an higher entertainment value, a show that a dozen people really like or a show that a million people really like? The entertainment business is, sadly, a numbers game and won't cater to my specific interests.

One of the problems is that many people of today's anime fans are more interested in following what's hip, happening and cool in the newest season rather than trying past shows even if the said past shows are incredibly good. It's more or less like what's presented here:

YouTube

https://youtu.be/hfeAtPGwBLI

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Originally Posted by 0cean

If they could just loop all their shows every 40 years without ever having to produce new stuff, they surely would do just that.

So you're asking the anime industry to shut down after 40 years? What kind of logic is that?
Those money still need to keep rolling regardless of quality. If not, people will lose their job.

Originally Posted by 0cean

I'm also still waiting for all those anime from before 1977 that are as awesome as, say, Evangelion.

Meh, both Evangelion & pre-77 shows are considered old shows in the eyes of today's audience (which is one of the topics of this thread). So there's no point in comparing them as many newcomers of this generation will likely refuse to watch both anyway .

[0cean]

You say this like fans from 10 years ago were different. Or the ones from 20 years ago. Or 30 years ago. Or 40. Before VHS people couldn't check out older stuff, even if they wanted, because after it's cinematic run it was gone for good. (But Hollywood did scream at VHS that it would be killing it.) So even the people making and selling this stuff didn't think old stuff was worth anything as far back as when cinema didn't even have color. Or sound.

People like us are the weird ones, here. Let's try not to delude ourselves on this point.

Also kind of relevant: https://chaostangent.com/2012/06/dea...rn-anime-suck/

[kanoguti]

What I want to know is, why are old anime ""fans"" so worried about what other people like? And why are they so hell-bent on controlling what other people watch?
Seems very insecure. Like they need newer fans to watch their favorite old shows to re-confirm they're still good.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by 0cean

You say this like fans from 10 years ago were different. Or the ones from 20 years ago. Or 30 years ago. Or 40.

I don’t know how things going on in your place, but for me, I grew up in the 90s, and I feel a (huge?) difference with some of today’s anime fans in how we view and appreciate older stuffs. You see, me and my friends back then never had that much of a problem in checking out older stuffs. You can come to us and recommend us something as far back as the 60s (but maybe not the black & white ones) and if you say it’s good and it’s from the genre that we like, you can bet your ass that we’ll try it. Many fellow anime fans of the time also share that sentiment (at least in my country). We hunted quality anime (from the genre that we like) rather than prioritizing what was hip and happening at the time. We did try popular stuffs and will follow them if we like it, but our hunt for good old stuffs never stopped and kept on going and continue in between following the new & popular stuffs (that’s something that today’s fans rarely do for anime series from a decade or two decades ago). And that habit continued until early 00s. After that point (in 2010s), we saw a resurgence of “anime fans” who refuse to try or downright mock and bash older anime just because they’re considered old. The definition of “old” for them can vary from older than 60s to early 00s.

Originally Posted by 0cean

Before VHS people couldn't check out older stuff, even if they wanted, because after it's cinematic run it was gone for good. (But Hollywood did scream at VHS that it would be killing it.) So even the people making and selling this stuff didn't think old stuff was worth anything as far back as when cinema didn't even have color. Or sound.

What you are saying is contradictory. Before VHS, people who missed a good old movie simply had no options to watch it, but that doesn’t mean they didn’t want to watch it. Hell no. If the old movie is really good, they will pay good money to watch it (and re-watch it). Try googling the history of the first King Kong movie (1933). If what you say is true, the King Kong re-release/re-screening in the 50s wouldn’t be such huge success and become a major event. That King Kong fact alone already debunked your argument that people don’t cherish old stuffs.

Originally Posted by 0cean

People like us are the weird ones, here. Let's try not to delude ourselves on this point.

Define "people like us" considering how different our views on stuffs.

Originally Posted by kanoguti

What I want to know is, why are old anime ""fans"" so worried about what other people like? And why are they so hell-bent on controlling what other people watch?
Seems very insecure. Like they need newer fans to watch their favorite old shows to re-confirm they're still good.

I can’t speak for everybody but I don’t go around forcing newcomers to see old anime or trying to control what they watch coz I know that’s stupid and will only backfire on you.

But across the internet, you often read & hear people complaining about how today’s anime are filled with moe stuffs, ecchi stuffs, wish-fulfillment stuffs, etc and they’re getting tired of it. Complaints like those didn’t just come from jaded old fans but also from relative newcomers who have been watching anime from 2010s or late 00s. You can say that they are starting to burn out of today’s anime. My recommendation of older anime (that are different) applies more to people like them because I feel that we are fellow fans and if I can help them about anime, I may as well do it.

As for newcomers who are still in love and genuinely excited for today's anime, I'm happy for them. They can continue to enjoy the incredible world of anime without my help or other old fans.

[Sackett]

In comparing old anime with new anime things can be divided into two main categories: Animation, and everything else.

Everything else includes things such as story, characters, and world building, all of which I can't see any reason to believe that old anime are going to be any less interesting than new anime.

However, I can see that there are a few elements that can become dated.

For example, Maison Ikkoku is a terrific romantic comedy, one that has clearly been the inspiration for anime romantic comedies since then. It has a decent story, and (like all Takahashi stories) strong and interesting characters. However, one thing that was clear to me is that those of us who grew up in the 80s would find Maison Ikkoku particularly endearing - because it's so clearly set in the 80's.

I picked up on that despite not ever watching it until the late 2000's, so it's not just nostalgia for something you watched when younger. Still, it doesn't prevent others from enjoying the story, it just gives a little something extra to those who remember that time period.

Animation however, is probably what most people are referring to when comparing old and new anime. It's also probably what most people are referring to when when they claim that newer anime are inherently superior.

Animation however can be considered in two different ways. Quality, and style. They are not the same thing, but often they are confused to be the same thing.

There are periods where there is a clear break in quality, either due to technical changes, or due to development in the animation community.

For example, to take a step away from Japanese animation - the highest quality Disney animation is still very much Sleeping Beauty. Despite being made in 1959 the quality of animation is simply stunning. The clarity and crisp nature, the natural movements, the use of layers, shadows and color. It's just a masterpiece.

Disney animation wouldn't peak again until Beauty and the Beast in 1991, though with a different style. Truthfully, Beauty and the Beast is more of the style I prefer, I just can't deny the amazing quality of Sleeping Beauty. In fact, there are several instances of extremely good animation in the old Disney films. Pinocchio (1940) has some amazing backgrounds. Bambi (1942) has incredible natural animal movement (very difficult for animators) and a very different style than anything else Disney. Both of those stand up very well against any of the modern Disney animated movies.

So animation wasn't technically incapable prior to 1977 (which is a rather arbitrary cutoff to claim as the line before which there are no good animes - see Space Battleship Yamato (1974) for an example - though admittedly it depends a lot on story to make up for the animation.) I would say that there was a noticeable shift in Japanese animation quality starting in the late 70s and continuing into the 80s. I'm guessing it was mainly budget related. My impression is that studios used to have much fewer animators doing the animation for shows - resulting in the animators having to rush.

However, most of the discussion is actually about later anime, as it seems newer anime fans think old stuff is anything before Attack on Titan. I just had a conversation with an anime fan the other day where she asked what anime I liked and I had to struggle to find something new enough that she had heard of it. I finally succeeded with Madoka Magica and got the response "Oh yeah... I haven't watched anything that old, but I heard that was good." When something only 6 years old is considered "too old" then you have to wonder if fans are maybe not giving enough effort to watching older shows.

Even before now, (meaning back in the 00's) fans where saying they couldn't watch 80's and even some 90's anime because they didn't like the animation.

This is where I think style and quality starts to get confused. While there is a noticeable increase in the average quality of animation in the late 70s and early 80s, there was also a major shift in animation style in the late 90s.

The most obvious changes where a significant increase in emphasis on details in the hair and the eyes. Hair and eyes both became bigger. Oh My Goddess, Love Hina and Clannad are probably examples of this near the peak (as eventually there was another shift to tone it back down a little)

Prior to this hair was usually a solid block rather than having all these details suggesting individual locks of hair. And eyes, while large, were relatively smaller.

This change in style had a lot going for it. The focus on the eyes in particular allowed for greater communication of emotions, and the hair emphasis allowed adding movement and subtlety to close ups (particularly of cute girls).

However... this was not without some loss. Watching quality animation from the 80s you'll notice some differences. The backgrounds tend to be more detailed (except for KyoAni of course), there was better use of shadow and lighting, but most of all there has been a loss of body language.

Older anime tend to have better hands, arm and body position. Body movement is more natural too.

I get the feeling that while a lot of the 80s anime used their newly expanded budgets to study pictures and videos to improve their body language, a lot of anime today seem to be copying from older anime instead of the original source (actual humans).

I don't remember what animes they were from but I recall an image of a mother sending her son off to college in both and older and a newer anime. The older anime it was so perfect. The position of the mother's hand on her son's face, the tilt of her head, the hunch of her shoulders. I'm certain the animator must have been using a picture of an actual mother and son.

In the newer anime though... it was much the same, but it felt slightly off. The head tilt wasn't right, the shoulder hunch wasn't there, and the hand though placed in the same location just felt off... It was more like what you see if you had models pose it. Or if the animator looked at an older anime (maybe even the one I'm comparing it too) and copied from that.

I would also say that modern anime tends to do a lot better at pacing it's animation budget. (or maybe just covering it up with 3D?). At the most extreme take Evangelion, which I'd say the best Evangelion animation still stands up against the best modern animation (yes, once you account for animation style I think Eva can match Fate/Zero). But take the worst Eva animation... well actually it still stands up against modern anime but not because the animation quality was any good. Just that they were able to incorporate the budget issues in a way that exploited them. I'd say that's another difference, older anime tend to handle budget deficits better than newer anime, probably because they are rarer in newer anime.

So I don't know that it's clear to say that newer anime (2010s) are explicitly better quality than older anime (80s).

[0cean]

What you say is generally all true, however, personally I mind neither the animation issue (otherwise I probably couldn't stand Visual Novels) nor the style issue. I do find older anime rather attractive looking - even stuff from the 1960s. I just feel that before 1981 they all suck and I put that date 4 years back to avoid people telling me how great all those anime like Gundam 0079, Uchuu Kaizoku Captain Harlock, Lupin/Cagliostro, Versailles no Bara, Mirai Shounen Conan, Ginga Tetsudou 999 and so on and so forth are, when I think that those anime all horribly suck.

It just usually avoids those kinds of people, as it is really rare for anime fans to know anything before 1977 and putting that date in hopefully makes them reflect on why they don't know anything good from before 1977. Or failing that, I get told about Ashita no Joe, Lupin Sansei, Uchuu Senkan Yamato, Shinzou Ningen Casshern and so on... and then I have to tell them, that I think that those anime all horribly suck, too.

By shifting the discussion away from why newer fans don't want to watch stuff from three years ago or older to why you won't watch anime from the 1960s I hope to answer the original question by making the questioner reflect on their own behavior.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by 0cean

What you say is generally all true, however, personally I mind neither the animation issue (otherwise I probably couldn't stand Visual Novels) nor the style issue. I do find older anime rather attractive looking - even stuff from the 1960s. I just feel that before 1981 they all suck and I put that date 4 years back to avoid people telling me how great all those anime like Gundam 0079, Uchuu Kaizoku Captain Harlock, Lupin/Cagliostro, Versailles no Bara, Mirai Shounen Conan, Ginga Tetsudou 999 and so on and so forth are, when I think that those anime all horribly suck.

It just usually avoids those kinds of people, as it is really rare for anime fans to know anything before 1977 and putting that date in hopefully makes them reflect on why they don't know anything good from before 1977. Or failing that, I get told about Ashita no Joe, Lupin Sansei, Uchuu Senkan Yamato, Shinzou Ningen Casshern and so on... and then I have to tell them, that I think that those anime all horribly suck, too.

Your entire argument is basically this: “pre-1981 anime sucks because I said so, and it’s true because I said so. People who think otherwise are deluding themselves or don’t know what they’re talking about”. That has become the running theme in all of your comments. You're basically repeating yourself.

In the process, you ignored and dismissed people who genuinely enjoy and being entertained by those anime even without nostalgia goggles (eg. I first watched the old 60s Yamato series in the 2010s and I really like it and appreciate it then, nostalgia goggle-free, and there are many others like me). You also ignore all the achievements and awards that those anime got, swept it under rug and just said that they all sucks. There's just not much substance in your arguments.

Originally Posted by 0cean

By shifting the discussion away from why newer fans don't want to watch stuff from three years ago or older to why you won't watch anime from the 1960s I hope to answer the original question by making the questioner reflect on their own behavior.

It also doesn’t help your argument if you act like other people are below you. How do you know the thread-starter doesn’t appreciate older anime that's not from his time? Stating your opinion is fine and dandy but doing it by belittling others is not the right way to do it.

[Tanuki.]

I just want to mention that you can also learn to appreciate something that seems old or old-fashioned at first. I certainly don't watch old anime for nostalgia. I've only been watching anime actively for about five years, but it's still a lot of fun for me to check out older stuff. But it took me a while to get used to and learn to appreciate the style, way of presentation, often episodic nature etc. of old shows.

I watched Heidi this year, and very slow show that started the World Masterpiece Theater craze in Japan. And I think it's an excellent show and I enjoyed it a lot. (As opposed to, for example, the first Lupin show which I found only mildly entertaining, but these types of shows just aren't my cup of tea.)

I think a reason many modern fans refuse to watch older stuff is that they are used to the presentation of modern stuff. And most older stuff is very different. Love Hina is very different from modern harem shows in terms of presentation. Kimagure Orange Road is very different from modern romcoms. Space Battle Ship Yamato is very different from modern space operas. Of course people who are used to modern entertainment primarily consume modern entertainment.

[0cean]

Since the entire topic is entirely opinion based, I never actually tried to suggest other people can't like stuff from before 1977. Only that the people that think they won't like to watch older stuff are probably right. Even if their arbitrary point in time happens to be 2010.

Achievements are worthless at entertaining me. People talk about someones achievements only if they haven't got anything nice to say about them. Either because they don't actually know the guy personally or because there is nothing nice to say. That's fine, we can talk about achievements. But they're really not that important. I won't think less of anyone for not having seen (or even know the name of) the first movie ever. Or the first one with sound. Or color. Or any other arbitrary achievement that people decide to place some value on.

If the reader does the above suggested reflection and comes to the conclusion that he really likes that one anime from the 1960s more than any anime that came after, more power to him. All I'm suggesting is, that this is not generally the case. The way I see it, people watch anime for entertainment and they use heuristics to come to the conclusion that newer anime are better for that purpose than older anime. Thus they watch newer anime because they think they have a higher chance at entertainment that way. And I'd say they are right, because I've literally watched thousands of anime and came to the conclusion that older anime generally are worse than modern ones. Maybe you come to a different conclusion.

I also think Tanuki has a point about presentation. But I would call it zeitgeist instead. Because I believe it's not only about presentation but also about the way the story is written. Most stories are trapped inside their own time and thus zeitgeist. It becomes most apparent in old science-fiction. You can always exactly tell when the story was coined. Like that one anime movie, released around the year 2000, Metropolis. You could just tell that the story is from the 1920s. It just lacks any zeitgeist from the turn of the millennium. And despite critics wanking themselves off on how artsy that movie is, the public gave it the cold shoulder. Didn't even manage to break even on production cost.

[Pen3]

I didn't go back to watch many older shows when I started watching anime, Evangelian was still in vivo format in '95. This was when and we all hung out on IRC and the anime community was very active.

Maisen Ikoku and Aim for the Ace might have been some the first older shows I caught up on. I remember enjoying Kimagure Orange Road, now that somebody mentioned it, but Lupin was never my thing either.

[Fvlminatvs]

Originally Posted by 0cean

Achievements are worthless at entertaining me. People talk about someones achievements only if they haven't got anything nice to say about them. Either because they don't actually know the guy personally or because there is nothing nice to say. That's fine, we can talk about achievements. But they're really not that important. I won't think less of anyone for not having seen (or even know the name of) the first movie ever. Or the first one with sound. Or color. Or any other arbitrary achievement that people decide to place some value on.

I think statements like this are why some of your interlocutors got pretty salty. I can see why, as well. It's incredibly short-sighted.

People don't necessarily watch a show/read a book/etc. to be entertained. They do it to be engaged by something. Occupying yourself with an engaging activity isn't always fun--it can be challenging, for example. It could be rewarding and edifying and help you become stronger, smarter, and better as a person. It could help you get out of your comfort zone.

If the only thing you seek, at all, whatsoever, is entertainment, then there isn't any further point in this discussion and just disregard everything in this comment from here on out.

At the risk of sounding like I'm getting personal (which isn't my intention), I feel the need to point out that you may very well lack the traits and necessary attributes to engage with something like Captain Harlock. Author John Updike once wrote an essay describing how to write a book review. In it, he admonished the potential reviewer to consider if perceived problems with the book were actually the faults of the book and not the faults of the reviewer.

To soften my criticism, I do want to point out that I don't entirely disagree with your assessment of 1960s and 1970s anime, as you will see below.

Originally Posted by 0cean

I also think Tanuki has a point about presentation. But I would call it zeitgeist instead. Because I believe it's not only about presentation but also about the way the story is written. Most stories are trapped inside their own time and thus zeitgeist. It becomes most apparent in old science-fiction. You can always exactly tell when the story was coined. Like that one anime movie, released around the year 2000, Metropolis. You could just tell that the story is from the 1920s. It just lacks any zeitgeist from the turn of the millennium. And despite critics wanking themselves off on how artsy that movie is, the public gave it the cold shoulder. Didn't even manage to break even on production cost.

I don't disagree with your main point although I find your example a bit problematic. Metropolis' problems were with the narrative structure and incoherent character motivations more than being based in the 1920s zeitgeist.

If you're talking about zeitgeist, yes, that explains a lot about why shows from the 1960s and 1970s are difficult for modern audiences to connect with. They were built around the syndication model for weekly television, which required episodes to be discrete narratives disconnected from one-another while maintaining the same characters. This way, you could miss an episode but not really miss out on content. In an earlier post, I believe you mentioned shows like Captain Harlock as examples.

While I don't disagree with you, the problem is that these shows were often highly influential in their time and played a strong role in shaping the medium. There is value to their existence and to simply dismiss them as "boring and outdated" is to do them a great disservice. That being said, having watched the entire run of Captain Harlock, I can say that, were it released today, it would, indeed, be rather lackluster and boring.

Similarly, I watched Devilman from the early 1970s and ran into the same issue. Not only that, it was positively sanitized and defanged compared to Go Nagai's actual manga. The horror of the story was erased in favor of a sort of Ultraman-esque monster-of-the-week format. So, yes, indeed, I see your point, here.

At the same time, I cannot simply dismiss these shows as "having sucked." They were important. They still are. Simply repudiating the past as "not as smart/good/advanced/whatever" as today is called "chronological snobbery" and is a fallacious position to take. Just because I, an American in 2018, am not the intended audience of the show and don't inhabit the zeitgeist in which it emerged, that doesn't give me the authority to pronounce the show as "having sucked" without having to explain myself--and that explanation had better be able to stand up to criticism.

In the West, the syndication model was broken up a bit by prime-time soap operas like Dallas in the 1980s, which became the "water cooler conversation" show. Over the next few decades, a few shows tried to capture that model, with Lost and Heroes being the big attempts during the 2000s and Game of Thrones being the biggest contender this decade. What these shows have in common is that episodes are not discrete but instead chapters in an overarching narrative.

This is what changed in anime back at the very end of the 1970s. Many shows started having consistent narratives and abandoned the episodic nature, or at least started featuring story arcs that spanned multiple episodes.

What I find to be a problem is why some fans today don't want to watch shows from the 1980s and 1990s. For myself, having grown up in the 1980s and 1990s, I've found plenty of great shows during that time period, as well as the 2000s and early 2010s. The past four or five years, however, I've noticed a sharp drop-off in compelling stories being produced and more-and-more I find myself dropping shows that are coming out each season to the point that I'm starting to lose interest in new anime altogether.

If shows that are as new (to me) as Madoka Magica aren't being watched by "newer" fans, I find that tremendously distressing. I think I'm losing interest in anime because it has become disposable. If newer (and younger) fans are treating anime as something to consume, dispose, and move on to the next one, then it is little better than any other mass-market consumption/disposable product. Anime is becoming fast-food.

[Dextro]

I noticed this thread some time ago but haven't had the time to actually sit down, read everything and add my own contributions to the topic.

There's one theory I have on why newer fans seem to be mostly ignoring the older shows in favor of whatever is hot right now. Some of you have already mentioned a large part of the why when mentioning the social and community aspect of anime viewing. Following what's happening right now as it happens and joining on the discussion is a major aspect of the anime fandom nowadays and you can't really argue about its influence in viewing habits. I know it's anecdotal but discussing running shows was probably the main reason why I originally joined these boards and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.

Following that, and if you accept the relevance of the social aspects of any entertainment medium, then I posit that the anime industry has actually changed in one very important and influential way. My theory stems from the analysis I did of ANN's database data back in 2016 that actually shows that the overall number of tv shows available each season has basically sky-rocketed in the last two decades following the virtual death of the OVA format:



My hypothesis then is as follows: any modern anime fan who is interested in newer shows would have to be extremely dedicated to the medium to find time to fully explore older titles. There's just far too much offering today for a regular person to even begin considering exploring older shows. I know I'm personally overwhelmed by the amount of new shows each season but I didn't really want to extrapolate my personal anecdotal evidence to the larger medium until I went back and looked at some numbers to support my thesis.

There's also the advent of streaming services and same day English subtitles that exponentially increased the access to new shows. Back in the early 2000s while the number of shows in Japan was already on the rise it was still difficult to access many of those shows in the west. That has helped tremendously shifting the focus from older shows to newer as well (but that may be a more complex reason to explain given that licensing concerns may impede these services from offering much of the older shows).

(I'm trying to update my script to get fresher data and see if my hypothesis of a rising number of shows survives but the ANN api is really flaky now)

[0cean]

Ultimately, no matter how you describe your motivation, you do this because you like it. Some people like a challenge and to overcome some hardships, but they do what they do because they like it. There's even a word for people that like generally unpleasant things: masochist. That's fine, people can watch anime for whatever reason they choose to.

I'm not sure what exactly you mean by engaging with Uchuu Kaizoku Captain Harlock, but I've seen that show. So that's something.

Also, anime of that time already where telling a narrative spanning all of the episodes and missing out on one episode would mean that you where missing out. Just not all anime. In a show like Uchuu Kaizoku Captain Harlock (1978), you could miss out on an episode or two. That's because lots of episodes in that show where kind of irrelevant. You could cut them out without a problem. Not so much with shows like Ashita no Joe (1970). Though, even that one was so slow paced, that missing one episode didn't really matter. But not as many episodes as you could skip in, for example, One Piece. I mean, you could easily miss out 200 episodes in One Piece and still get what's going on if you decide to watch again.

Like I said, achievements mean nothing. If a show sucks today, it sucks. You can still go and watch it and feel all important in doing so, too. At the end you either liked it or didn't and chances are you didn't, since it was an old show and those tend to suck. That's life.

Saying we have to judge older shows on a different scale is just ridiculous. It also totally undermines the few old shows that did stand the test of time and are still good. This is how you get people to despise old stuff: by putting it on a pedestal and shielding it from casual criticism. If it's that important, than put it in a museum, why don'tcha.

And if you don't like to watch new anime, why expect newer fans who like those to watch the old anime you like? Spoiler, they probably won't like them. And no, you don't have to get them to watch the things you enjoyed, even if they hate it. That's just arrogance.

[Tanuki.]

It's not like there's a new replacement for every type of old anime out there. I, too, mostly watch relatively new stuff, but I tend to gravitate towards shows with themes I really love that are much more present in older anime. Specifically the World Masterpiece Theater shows, many of which are timeless and still very good by today's standards. They tell stories that aren't told anymore in modern anime – because they don't reflect the taste of the masses anymore. I, however, find both value and enjoyment in many of these shows. I can honestly say they are good even by today's standards.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Tanuki.

It's not like there's a new replacement for every type of old anime out there. I, too, mostly watch relatively new stuff, but I tend to gravitate towards shows with themes I really love that are much more present in older anime. Specifically the World Masterpiece Theater shows, many of which are timeless and still very good by today's standards. They tell stories that aren't told anymore in modern anime – because they don't reflect the taste of the masses anymore. I, however, find both value and enjoyment in many of these shows. I can honestly say they are good even by today's standards.

Agreed. In case someone here forgot, my first post in this thread is encouraging people to watch older shows because there are things that you can't get anymore in today's anime. So, my encouragement falls more toward people who are already feeling jaded enough with the current anime offering that they want something else as alternative. You most likely can find that alternative in older anime. But you might want to do some research first (without too much spoiling) to understand what you're getting into before diving in. Or simply ask people that you can trust.

So, you see, me and a lot of people here encourage fans to look at older anime not due to some sense of elitism or nostalgia. We basically just want to enrich the fans (for those who are willing to listen) and strengthen their love for anime.

[Fvlminatvs]

Originally Posted by 0cean

Like I said, achievements mean nothing. If a show sucks today, it sucks. You can still go and watch it and feel all important in doing so, too. At the end you either liked it or didn't and chances are you didn't, since it was an old show and those tend to suck. That's life.

Saying we have to judge older shows on a different scale is just ridiculous. It also totally undermines the few old shows that did stand the test of time and are still good.

First of all, there is such a thing as chronological snobbery. Secondly, there's the historian's fallacy. You're treading dangerously close to both and both are logically fallacious. These shows are often spoken of because they were successful back when they first aired.

Were people just stupid back then? Were they just supposed to have knowledge that the animation sucked? Were they just ignorant back then? If those shows sucked, as you say, then wouldn't that imply that their success was because viewers had poor taste? No, because if I imply these things, I'm guilty of chronological snobbery.

Aesthetics change over time and making blanket categorical statements like "they suck" implies that they have always sucked and always will suck, as well as absolutely ignoring the cultural and chronological zeitgeist in which they were produced.

You don't judge Shakespeare by modern film standards and find it wanting because it is designed to be played out on a stage and not on a big screen with huge explosions. You take into account the era in which the works were written.

So you don't like old anime. That's fine. That's your taste. Your motivations for watching anime are not going to be universal, and that's fine until you start making qualitative judgments about things and couching your terms in absolutes.

Indeed, your criticisms of some of these shows are perfectly valid. Uchuu Kaizoku Captain Harlock was, indeed, episodic, planet-of-the-week fodder. No it didn't age well but it is enjoyable if you can get your head wrapped around what the zeitgeist was back then. If you have no interest in doing so, well, of course you are going to have problems. So, don't watch it.

But don't disparage those who try to introduce it to younger fans. Sharing something you like with others is a basic human social activity.

This is how you get people to despise old stuff: by putting it on a pedestal and shielding it from casual criticism. If it's that important, than put it in a museum, why don'tcha.

Straw man fallacy. Saying that asking people to go back and watch old stuff makes people hate it is a total straw man. Anyone out there who hates old stuff just because there are 1) people that do like old stuff and 2) tell people they should give it a try are being ridiculously immature and it says more about their personal character than it does about old stuff.

No one is putting this stuff on a pedestal. It is possible for people to learn to appreciate these things without having nostalgia for them. Not having the sophistication to appreciate those things doesn't make you dumb or stupid but implying that having that sophistication is synonymous with "putting it on a pedestal and shielding it from casual criticism," and an intellectually dishonest dismissal of others' criticism of your judgments. Sorry, but if you were to go around saying Shakespeare was a hack because you (hypothetically speaking) can't understand Elizabethan English, others get to point out all the flaws in your position. The same goes for anime.

And if you don't like to watch new anime, why expect newer fans who like those to watch the old anime you like? Spoiler, they probably won't like them. And no, you don't have to get them to watch the things you enjoyed, even if they hate it. That's just arrogance.

This, too, is a straw man. Saying, "You should give something a try," when that thing not physically or psychologically harmful is perfectly fine and socially acceptable. No one is putting a gun to anyone's head and forcing them to watch anything against their will. And guess what else? They're perfectly fine for saying that you're missing out. And you're totally allowed to keep on missing out. Nobody is calling you names or impugning your character just because you didn't like Space Battleship Yamato or Mahotsukai Sally.

If I suggest 100 younger fans try Uchuu Kaizoku Captain Harlock and only 5 like them, those 5 will be enriched and the other 95 will have experienced zero harm for trying out and then dropping the show.

Tastes are different today. That's fine. Tastes change, trends change. However, I'm not going to assume that every young new anime fan wants to watch nothing more than video-game isekai, harems, mobile-game adaptations, and ecchi fanservice. I'm not going to assume they are incapable or unwilling of appreciating hand-drawn animation from the past. I'm not going to assume they would be uninterested in cyberpunk, space opera, or old-school-D&D-style fantasy. I'm going to give them a chance to decide for themselves.

To quote the late, great Chase Melendez's rebuttal of Confused Matthew (the exact quote here), "I can't stand Charlie Chaplain movies. I think they are boring and unfunny, however, I would never, in a million years, give one a negative review and then tell people not to see it. I lack the necessary sophistication required in order to enjoy his films, but since I understand this, and do take into account all other factors around his films, I recommend them to everyone because watching them, like studying history, is never a bad thing." (Emphasis added by me.)

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

^ Thanks for that classy rebuttals and strawman-pointing, Fvlminatvs.

Now let us hope that this less-than-useful arguments won’t continue and the instigator has the decency to know when to stop coz it’s not doing anybody a favor.