Penguin Drum - Character Discussion - Takakura Shouma

[Kirarakim]

Well what I am wondering is can we talk about Shouma in relation to the novel in here? I know there is a novel thread but I think the novel does give more insight into Shouma...since well it IS all in his thoughts.

But for not being able to talk much about Shouma he seems to be the character we've talked about the most so far.

[Shiroth]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Well what I am wondering is can we talk about Shouma in relation to the novel in here? I know there is a novel thread but I think the novel does give more insight into Shouma...since well it IS all in his thoughts.

As long as the novel talk is in labelled spoiler tags, then i don't think it would be a problem. It's not like you'll be discussing future events.

Best to ask a mod first though, just to be save.

[Ashaman]

For some strange reason I thought that Shoma would die after getting hit by the car.

I had a weird thought about it too, like the day before ep 10 came out. Suffice it to say, the strange fantasy ended up with Shoma coming back to life and shouting "Survival Streategy!!" to his bro's utter horror.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Shiroth

What about Himari?

It's hard to like a mannequin. Frankly, Himari hasn't been developed enough for me to either like or dislike her, yet. As I said - she has potential if she is.

[Shiroth]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

It's hard to like a mannequin.

Eh, i'd hardly call her that. Episode 9 was the right amount of development we need right now. No point in being overloaded when there's so much going on.

[Spoonroo]

Originally Posted by Shiroth

Eh, i'd hardly call her that. Episode 9 was the right amount of development we need right now. No point in being overloaded when there's so much going on.

Yeah after episode 9, I don't think you can really fairly call Himari a mannequin anymore. We say what she was like in her childhood - that's not really the actions of a mannequin character. Good to know she's not just some human MacGuffin.

I like Shoma a lot. There are a lot of stories where everyone but one character is off their rocker, and you're supposed to identify with the one "normal guy" I think he does a good of reacting like I would if I were confronted with the same things.

I also think where it's easy to draw parallels between Kanba and penguin 1 and Himari and penguin 3 (more so after episode 9) There are thinkg penguin 2 does (the gluttonous eating, the need to kill all those bugs, ALWAYS having the bug spray) that definitely indicate that there is a lot more to Shoma than has been shown.

He and Yuri compete for my favorite character. They are the two that I hope to see more development for. I see them as very similar, honestly, and I feel they are both hiding a ton behind their exteriors.

[Guardian Enzo]

I kind of disagree here. We didn't see a whole lot of Himari in 09 even though she was on screen the whole time - she was really just a plot driver, impassively moving through all the events that weren't flashbacks. She remains a cipher for me - someone for others to react to more than a character in her own right.

But this is the Shouma thread, so enough of that I guess...

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Originally Posted by Shiroth

Hear i am thinking i was the only one who prefers single threads over a sub-forum.

You are most definitely not alone. I look at this sub-forum and I go "cba ..." while I would have posted without a second thought were it a thread.

[Shiroth]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I kind of disagree here. We didn't see a whole lot of Himari in 09 even though she was on screen the whole time - she was really just a plot driver, impassively moving through all the events that weren't flashbacks. She remains a cipher for me - someone for others to react to more than a character in her own right.

Did you have your eyes closed while watching episode 9? That was backstory development for her character, which gave her character a lot more depth then just being what you're making her out to be.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Shiroth

Did you have your eyes closed while watching episode 9? That was backstory development for her character, which gave her character a lot more depth then just being what you're making her out to be.

I think you're misunderstanding what Enzo is getting at. Episode 9 gave Himari a backstory to help us understand her character, but her role remains the same: she's still just a device for other characters (ie: her brothers) to react to. She doesn't have any active role in the story, she doesn't do anything. I think that's what he means by "cipher". If you think about it, out of the four protagonist, she's the only one like this. Even Ringo has her own goal, her own mission to follow.

In the end, a story is merely a compendium of actions and reactions. So a character who doesn't "act" but rather serves as motivation for other characters, is more of an object than a character on their own.

[Triple_R]

The thing with Himari is that we don't know what her motivations are.

Aside from "peaceful happy day-to-day living with her brothers and BFF Ringo" we don't know what it is that Himari wants.

We have a very good idea of what Kanba wants, and of what Ringo wants. Their motivations are lay bare, complimented by extensive inner monologues, and expressed through their actions.

We have a pretty good idea of what Shouma wants (I don't find him as clear-cut as Kanba and Ringo though).

So Himari is the odd one out of the 4 main protagonists.

But this isn't necessarily a problem. We aren't even half-way through the narrative after all. But I do hope we learn a bit more about Himari's motivations within the next few episodes.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The thing with Himari is that we don't know what her motivations are.

The motivation is important only in the context of the action it arises, but the action itself is most important. So even if she had a more clear motivation, if she didn't act on it, she would still be lacking as a character. On the other hand, a character who does pursue a goal would be acceptable even if their motivation was unclear at first. An example is Homura, who until episode 10 didn't have her motivation explored, but was still a proper character because even if we didn't know what was driving her, she still had an active role, she still was trying to achieve something.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

The motivation is important only in the context of the action it arises, but the action itself is most important. So even if she had a more clear motivation, if she didn't act on it, she would still be lacking as a character. On the other hand, a character who does pursue a goal would be acceptable even if their motivation was unclear at first. An example is Homura, who until episode 10 didn't have her motivation explored, but was still a proper character because even if we didn't know what was driving her, she still had an active role, a goal to achieve.

If we know a character's motivation, but we haven't seen her act on it yet, that can build up viewer anticipation over "I wonder what she's going to do when she finally acts on her motivation?"

But you're right that seeing a character engage in a lot of actions without definitively knowing her motivation can be mysterious and interesting as well.

The problem is that we have neither of this with Himari so far. Not unless we assume that her and the Penguin Queen are two sides of the same individual.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

If we know a character's motivation, but we haven't seen her act on it yet, that can build up viewer anticipation over "I wonder what she's going to do when she finally acts on her motivation?"

I've never seen anything like that. A story is about actions after all, so a character doing nothing doesn't really do much for anyone. An acceptable reason for a character to do nothing would be if they don't know what they want to do (or what they should do). Madoka is an example. But if they do know and they still don't act on it, that's just bad writing I think.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The problem is that we have neither of this with Himari so far. Not unless we assume that her and the Penguin Queen are two sides of the same individual.

You're right. Himari at the moment has neither. The story definitely needs to focus on her and give her her own story.

[Shiroth]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I think you're misunderstanding what Enzo is getting at. Episode 9 gave Himari a backstory to help us understand her character, but her role remains the same: she's still just a device for other characters (ie: her brothers) to react to. She doesn't have any active role in the story, she doesn't do anything. I think that's what he means by "cipher". If you think about it, out of the four protagonist, she's the only one like this. Even Ringo has her own goal, her own mission to follow.

In the end, a story is merely a compendium of actions and reactions. So a character who doesn't "act" but rather serves as motivation for other characters, is more of an object than a character on their own.

I clearly know what Enzo is on about. I just don't agree with it.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I've never seen anything like that.

Think of a Magnificent Bastard style villain. One who's clearly laid out his chief goals or desires, and ends off by saying "Now, soon, very soon, my ultimate plan will be put into motion" (or something to that extent). That can build up suspense - You know the character's motivation, you're just waiting to see what he'll do to act on it.

Granted, this doesn't work as well with a main protagonist.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

The motivation is important only in the context of the action it arises, but the action itself is most important. So even if she had a more clear motivation, if she didn't act on it, she would still be lacking as a character. On the other hand, a character who does pursue a goal would be acceptable even if their motivation was unclear at first. An example is Homura, who until episode 10 didn't have her motivation explored, but was still a proper character because even if we didn't know what was driving her, she still had an active role, she still was trying to achieve something.

I think there is a lot to say about defining a character based on their inaction. Its easier to like and thereby relate to a character that acts but that doesn't mean a character that doesn't act is ill-defined. By episode 9 we could sort of see why Himari doesn't act and kind of keeps to herself. While she made friends with Ringo, she doesn't seem to have any other friends besides her and her brothers.

There was a time when we see had a goal and dreams but they were dashed and now she's plagued with regret and sorrow for what could have been. They might even be more to that story but we don't know yet. We can also see by the what she reads and that see seems to be someone that reads and watches T.V a lot that she kind of lives in a bit of a fantasy world and might even be living vicariously through them.

I think the heart of Himari character is her inaction and only by analyzing why she doesn't will we be able to understand her. What is she suppressing about herself, why is she suppressing it are questions I think are also relevant to her character.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I think you're misunderstanding what Enzo is getting at. Episode 9 gave Himari a backstory to help us understand her character, but her role remains the same: she's still just a device for other characters (ie: her brothers) to react to. She doesn't have any active role in the story, she doesn't do anything. I think that's what he means by "cipher". If you think about it, out of the four protagonist, she's the only one like this. Even Ringo has her own goal, her own mission to follow.

In the end, a story is merely a compendium of actions and reactions. So a character who doesn't "act" but rather serves as motivation for other characters, is more of an object than a character on their own.

Very much so, and thank you.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

I think the heart of Himari character is her inaction and only by analyzing why she doesn't will we be able to understand her. What is she suppressing about herself, why is she suppressing it are questions I think are also relevant to her character.

I think all that's cool on an intellectual level, and maybe even at an emotional one. But narratively specking, if she ultimately doesn't act, she will be swapped away but the narrative. To put it in English. What if she didn't want her brothers to risk their lives (and maybe even sacrifice themselves) for her sake? Even if she did feel this way, she would be unable to do anything about it unless she said so, right?

Basically, a character who doesn't act can't affect and change the story because the story is made of actions. So what you said about Himari reads to me like a description of an object. A beautiful object, but an object nonetheless.

That said, I think Himari has the potential to become a proper character and afect the story with her actions. There's still plenty of time for her to realize what she wants to do (now, not what she wanted in the past) and act on it.

[Guardian Enzo]

And ultimately the reason we're discussing her in the Shouma thread is the point that Shouma (at least for me) is the only character who's been fleshed out and also likable and sympathetic. It's not a question of not liking Himari - it's a question of her not having been developed as a creature of her own reasoning and emotion to blossom as an individual. As Kazu said, at this point she's a beautiful object. That doesn't mean she will be when the series is over, or even in a month.