Honey and Clover II

[rooboy]

Originally Posted by cipotlar

Well, I surely dont want to bring up the discussion on how 'little' asian woman can be again(I remember reading that discussion in the old Hachikuro thread before the animesuki database got crashed), but I can assure you that I have a cousin (19 yo) who is shorter than 150 cm. If you asked her to go to junior high school, I have no doubt that the teacher will believe her as one of the students.

This happens in non-asian women as well, both of my grandmothers are five feet tall and under (152 cm) - and I have zero asian blood.
However, there is a difference between the statement that Hagu is short and Hagu looks like a child. Hagu looks like a child. Hagu being short is intentional (she's drawn that way). Hagu looking like a child I think is accidental (it's an idiosyncracy of the art style). Ayu is drawn with some of the same childish facial features (chubby rosy cheeks, etc). We just don't really notice because she is clearly not a child. Neither is really why I don't find Hagu appealing anyway. I'm not sure that there actually is a reason I could point to. I don't hate her, I just don't especially like her either.

[Grifis]

Originally Posted by rooboy666

[/lurk mode]
No more so than love at first sight ever is. Part of the series theme is that love isn't really understandable - why it happens, how, when - none of it makes rational sense. It just is. Why is Ayu in love with Mayama? Don't know, she just is. Why is she not able to get over him? She just can't.
Love's not fair, it's not equivalent and it doesn't make sense. That's just part of life. You can't hide from it, you can't ignore it, but it is very real and you do have to deal with it whether you want to or not.
[lurk mode]

I really don't have the patience to understand why Ayu can't get over Mayama. As for Morita and Takemoto, sure I tease but I don't have a problem with them being shallow. I don't believe in love at first sight but I'm not against it nor do I have anything against someone being shallow on certain things.

It was love at first sight for Morita and Takemoto (or at least they were both somewhat attracted to her at first sight). However the thing about this love at first sight is that the sight is in a childlike form. Their affections for her doesn't need to be rational but the fact that they both fell for a girl who looks somewhat too young kind of put them into awkward views from the audience. (I of course can't possibly guess why the author wrote them in like that.) Afterall, there's a certain label for the men who like children. I know this is fictional and I have to romanticize everything but sometimes things from real life and the news seep into mind and often twist my already twisted thinking. Therefore in order to neutralize those thoughts, I have to repeatedly reminding myself that Hagu is an exaggerated representation of an asian plain Jane. It seems to be working so far.

[mit7059]

Originally Posted by Grifis

I know this is fictional and I have to romanticize everything but sometimes things from real life and the news seep into mind and often twist my already twisted thinking. Therefore in order to neutralize those thoughts, I have to repeatedly reminding myself that Hagu is an exaggerated presentation of an asian plain Jane. It seems to be working so far.

It's this part of the series that slightly bothers me. One of the things that makes me love this series so much is it's realism, and I think that this takes away from that, although you can dismiss things that doen't make sense as, "well its only fiction" i don't want to have to make that rationalization, I want to believe that this situation could, for the most part, actually happen, and except for some of the off the wall Morita stuff, it could.

[Lyannea]

Personally I am just glad Hagu is not a britney spears clone !
She has beautiful eyes and hair. It is enough reason for a boy to find her pretty.
As for sexy... I don't know if Morita or Takemoto ever discussed or thought of her in that way :P

[aliensporebomb]

As the series has progressed, Hagu looks closer and closer to her true age
I've noticed - I concur with whoever suggested that her outward appearance
actually reflects how she personally feels about herself. It makes a lot of sense.

As far as Takemoto's craftsmanship goes - that's what is important here and
there is a fine distinction. Morita and Hagu are artistic visionaries, for the art
world. Takemoto is more of a craftsman for another purpose entirely - for
the restoration of structures which may lead to further architectural work
down the line. So two different purposes even though the school supports
both kinds of work.

Anyway, it's going to be interesting to see the wrap up as we're heading
into the final push.

[Feral]

Sorry to bother you ladies and gents with a question like this but, what is the regular airing schedule for this series?

[mit7059]

http://animenewsnetwork.com/encyclop...d=6440&page=25

[cipotlar]

Hey guys, is there any news on Hachikuro volume 10 manga? I know this is not probably the right place to ask, but this forum looks more active than the Manga counterpart.

edit: Whoops scratch that question, found the answer already: 8th September

[AisuruMirai]

Originally Posted by Feral

Sorry to bother you ladies and gents with a question like this but, what is the regular airing schedule for this series?

It airs on Thursday nights (technically Friday mornings) from 12:55am to 1:25am. The final episode (chapter 12) will air 2006.9.21 (or 2006.9.22 if you go w/ Friday).

[brightredglow]

Originally Posted by AisuruMirai

I don't think that saying that his tower is a piece of crap is bashing Takemoto. It's bashing his work. I did, however, say that his work reflects his personality, & this may have led you to think that I was saying that his personality is a piece of crap. But I've already explained the stuff about his personality, so I won't repeat it. Can you tell me why you think that I've "bashed" Takemoto?

I apologize if I misunderstood. And yes, I did take the contextual leap that since you were using his work as a metaphor for him and wording such as "crap" and "w/o abilities" was used, then it did seem like both he and his work were being bashed. Again, my apologies if I misunderstood.

Originally Posted by AisuruMirai

But I still think that having Shuuji & Takemoto both dealing w/ the past for a living & having both be mediocre artists was something intentional & meaningful, & Umino Chika has handled it artfully, w/o making the similarities too glaringly obvious or too miniscule & esoteric.

では、
パステル模様の未来

I think the point of Takemoto is that he breaks the mold of Shuuji and Tatsuo. Takemoto is not an artist and I don't think this is a problem for him because he was never an artist to begin with. What Takemoto envied (and Shuuji to an extent) was that Hagu and Morita had direction and a sense of purpose whereas he was floundering. His growth is that he found his direction and purpose.

What Umino handled so beautifully is not the comparison of abilities between the characters, but the appreciation of abilities of each character.

[Theowne]

Well, this is another "I've finally caught up" post.

But first, I present to you my Honey and Clover fansite! (look at sig) And as my first order of business, I have created (using MIDIs by currywu) and uploaded good quality MP3 versions of Waltz and Dramatic Piano Themes (the ones missing from the OST)!

Waltz and Dramatic Piano Versions

Please only use Mirror 3 as a last resort (that's the one that sucks up my bandwith) Also if you want to contribute content to my site please do!

Anyways, I watched the entire series up until now more or less in the span of 3-4 weeks. As such, I'm going to make another one of those "what I think so far" posts. Since it's fairly long, I'll put it in a spoiler tag so as not to disturb your peaceful discussion. If anyone wants to read it and respond, that'd be great

Spoiler for my opinion on the "manliness" of watching Honey and Clover:

So yeah, I'm a guy as well. I'm fully aware that Honey and Clover is a series aimed at women. I guess I would feel embarassed if a friend found out I watched this or something. But I think that it's just a problem with our perceptions of gender basically. I could understand if in Honey and Clover, there are frequent shots of less-clothed men or such for the purpose of pleasing female fans, but I've found that to be nonexistent here. I mean, you can tell that a series like Love Hina is aimed at young guys because of it's frequent fanservice, but I Honey and Clover is different in that it doesn't seem to pander towards one gender. I mean, the main character (sort of) is even a male himself (and I should say that it helped me get into the story easier then anime where the main character is a girl)

I guess what people will say is the way the show frequently focuses on emotions, feelings, etc..which is seen as "girly"...So is it wrong for a guy to enjoy this sort of thing? Are guys only allowed to be shallow and idiotic while girls are deep and emotional? Who decided it this way? Well, I certainly don't agree with it. Even if I would never dream of making this speech to my friends because I'm such a coward , we should at least be able to do it on the internet of all places.

Spoiler for my thoughts on the OP and ED of season 1 and 2:

Well, like everyone else, I loved Waltz. The first few episodes I just skipped past the OP and ED because I'm used to doing that with all the anime I watch (I usually listen the first time and skipped). But over time they started to become intertwined with the series itself. I couldn't imagine H&C being the same with "Dramatic" & "Waltz". I think they just define the series really well. Also, I guess I'm one of the few that prefers the 2nd OP animation to the first. It's true it was more unique, but I just really like the way the OP is presented, how it mixes the various images.

And "Mistake", well, I actually like it. It's no "Waltz", but it's enjoyable and I think it suits the anime to a certain degree. I think the second half of it is very nice, sounds very mellow (the part where he starts singing the words "kumu no ue nobori" - during the preview for next ep).

Although I prefer Waltz over Mistake as the ED overall (also, Mistake never captured that same feeling of (It's over already!?!?!?! NOOOO), I have to say I prefer the single for Mistake over the single for Waltz. The shortened form of Waltz is great, but I don't like how the song progresses in the single, especially that solo in the middle.....

As for the new OP and ED, what can I say? Fugainaiya isn't as pleasant as Dramatic, but suits the 2nd season more. YUKI's voice is really weird, it's something you don't like so much that you end up liking. And Split? Amazing......Initially, I thought "Oh, just a generic song trying to recreate the magic of Waltz", but after it was used a couple of times, I've come to like it almost more then Waltz itself. While Waltz was sort of dreamy and pleasant, Split just sums up the second season so well. Often as the show ends, I just find myself staring blankly as the ED rolls on. (There was a funny incident where my trance was interrupted because the next thing in my Winamp playlist was School Rumble 01)

Spoiler for what I think of characters and plotlines currently:

Honey and Clover is obviously one of those animes that start out as one of the most fun series you'll find but ends up one of the most emotional you've ever seen. Wait......there aren't many of those after all....

But the last few episodes were just very emotional and depressing......but the episode with Kaoru will always be one of my most favourite episodes of anything ever....I'm not sure why that one stood out to me, but it just did. The messages of "Why are we divided into those of us who are talented and those of us who are not?" The way that episode was presented was just.....amazing. In fact the entire storyline of the Morita family was done really well. In episode 8, I believe, when Kaoru finally gets revenge on Mr. Floyd - it's a victory, but a hollow one. Even as Floyd gets what he deserved......you get an empty feeling inside, and Kaoru did too, as he stepped outside. Even though he had finally had his plan come to fruition, it wasn't really a win for him because in the end, it isn't what his father would have wanted at all. He let his emotions and grudges take control of him instead of moving on, towards the light. When Shinobu quickly goes to his brother's aid when he falls, it reminded me immediately of the scene in the previous episode where young Shinobu runs back to his fallen brother's aid. I wonder whether Kaoru was doing this because of his father, or because he felt he had to make up for what Tatsou had done, because he had always felt similar and understood how Tatsou had felt.

Anyways, that scene was one of the greatest "tragedy of victory" scenes I've ever seen.

Anyways, as for relationships. I do hope Ayu+Nomiya works out. Originally, in season 1, I thought Nomiya was just a plot device to get Mayama to become jealous and eventually realize his "secret feelings" for Yamada. But I soon realized that I couldn't expect Honey and Clover to follow standard plot cliches. What a twis that I would eventually end up liking Nomiya and wanting that pairing to work. I used to want Yamada + Mayama to happen, but now it's the last thing I want to happen. Nomiya seemed like a cold heartless jerk when I first saw him, but by this point and the time the guy seems human.

I don't have an opinion on Takemoto/Morita/Hagu. Not because I don't care, but just because I don't want to have to decide. Takemoto is a nice guy, I personally liked him as a character, especially at the end of season 1, but it's hard not to want Morita to get some happiness by the end of the series (and Kaoru too please).

...phew....that's all for now.....waiting fanatically for episode 9 to be subbed....

P.S.
The accident scene in episode 8 was almost physically sickening (as was it's intention, I'm guessing). The melding of that horribly upbeat insert song with the images onscreen just made it feel surreal...and "wrong".

[mit7059]

@Theowne, Honey & Clover is targed to both men and women, but unlike series like love hina, its targeted to an older more mature audience where men can handle real emotions and relationships without feeling insecure, oh and your link to you website is broken due to the bold font

[Theowne]

Fixed, but the link to the piano themes should have worked.

Anyways, I'm pretty sure Honey and Clover is a josei manga, aimed at women.

where men can handle real emotions and relationships without feeling insecure

Yeah, but who says you have to be older to handle real emotions and relationships? I mean according to your age your 17 so you should realize that's a misconception right? I doubt age really matters in this these things, I've seen 20-something year olds who are less mature in this aspect then teenagers.

[mit7059]

Regardless of where it was initially published I think that Honey & Clover falls perfectly into the Seinen category

Originally Posted by ANN

Seinen
Relatively uncommon in the west due to the emphasis on the male teen market, "seinen" is a demographic indicator for anime and manga aimed at a young adult male (college-aged) audience. As such, this kind of anime tends to be much more sophisticated than shounen anime. There are many of the same basic themes/subgenres as shounen but they are more psychological, satirical, violent, sexual, etc. In other words they are intended for a more mature audience.

There is a stronger focus on plot and consequently less focus on action. Characters and their interactions are also often more developped than in shounen anime. Because of this, seinen material is frequently misidentified as shoujo because it isn't very well known outside of Japan and because fans correctly recognize the character development, relationships and romance typical of shoujo. However, seinen anime usually deals with these subjects with a greater realism. Where shoujo will have an idealized love story, seinen will have more grays and uncertainties dealing with the practical give-and-take realities of a relationship.

Overall, seinen anime tends to be more strongly rooted in reality, with many incidental details added to heighten the sense of realism and even fantasy elements being subject to a strong "realistic" logic. Of course, it should be noted that those stylistic guidelines are a generalization of the genre and even an anime that has none of those characteristics can be classified as seinen if that was indeed the target audience. In fact, hentai (not including yaoi) is mostly targeted at the seinen demographic.

It should be noted that many of the works of anime most acclaimed for their depth and maturity (such as Patlabor, Maison Ikkoku and Ghost in the Shell) hail from the seinen genre.

"seinen will have more grays and uncertainties dealing with the practical give-and take realities of a relationships. Overall, seinen anime tends to be more strongly rooted in reality" Sounds exactly like Honey & Clover to me, its a commonly misbelief that an anime can only belong to one genre, a show can be both seinen and josei as long as it appeals to both, as I think Honey & Clover is.

Originally Posted by Theowne

Yeah, but who says you have to be older to handle real emotions and relationships? I mean according to your age your 17 so you should realize that's a misconception right? I doubt age really matters in this these things, I've seen 20-something year olds who are less mature in this aspect then teenagers.

While age doesn't always translate into maturity, most people take it for a given that it does, it much easier to imagine a mature free thinking 25 year old than a mature free thinking 17 year old, even if it may not be true. But for the majority of people maturity does come with age, some mature faster than others, but a publisher isn't going to say, "well we can't say we're targeting this to people in their 20's given that they're more mature than teenagers because there are some very mature teenagers" Trust me, I know all to well of people not taking me seriously because I'm 17, but I know a lot more seventeen year-olds that arn't mature enough for conversations like this than I know of that are mature enough.

[rooboy]

Originally Posted by mit7059

Regardless of where it was initially published I think that Honey & Clover falls perfectly into the Seinen category

No, it's josei. You are misusing your term (and not even reading the section from ANN you are quoting).
Let me repeat a section you just quoted and change where the bolded emphasis lies.

Originally Posted by ann

Overall, seinen anime tends to be more strongly rooted in reality, with many incidental details added to heighten the sense of realism and even fantasy elements being subject to a strong "realistic" logic. Of course, it should be noted that those stylistic guidelines are a generalization of the genre and even an anime that has none of those characteristics can be classified as seinen if that was indeed the target audience.

Among notable seinen series: Azumanga Daioh, Pani Poni Dash!, Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha A's, Ichigo Mashimaro. Here's what ANN says about josei (note that ANN actually misidentifies it as shoujo both in the anime and the manga section):

Originally Posted by ANN

Demographic indicator for anime and manga aimed at young women. One of the rarest forms of anime, a large proportion of josei anime/manga appears to fall under the category of "yaoi". Although there are some housewife/family/young mother stories in manga format in Japan, non-yaoi josei is almost nonexistant in the west. Popular examples of non-yaoi Josei include Paradise Kiss and Honey and Clover.

Originally Posted by mit7059

Sounds exactly like Honey & Clover to me, its a commonly misbelief that an anime can only belong to one genre, a show can be both seinen and josei as long as it appeals to both, as I think Honey & Clover is.

No. Something is either josei, seinen, shoujo, shounen, etc. That doesn't mean that other people can't (or aren't expected to) read/watch/enjoy it - it just means that's what the target demographic is. My wife cannot stand josei, and is only mildly fond of shoujo - she prefers seinen of all types and shounen comedies (the more generic and harem-y the better) - that doesn't make Love Hina josei, it's still shounen.
There's no need to get defensive about it, but "appropriating" terms to mean what you want them to mean is silly. I know a lot of people (Vexx, for one) have just gotten in the habit of leaving them off and that's fine too, but if you're going to use the term, use it correctly. Another dead giveaway that it's either shoujo or josei is that it's airing in the Noitamina block - which is intended to give anime aimed at girls and young women airtime (something that was almost completely missing three years ago).

[mit7059]

I don't see how any publisher when they have a plotline that clearly applies to both sexes, would say "we're only going to target women," I firmly believe that a series can target both sexes.

Originally Posted by ANN

Of course, it should be noted that those stylistic guidelines are a generalization of the genre and even an anime that has none of those characteristics can be classified as seinen if that was indeed the target audience.

So a series that meets no seinen characteristics can be seinen, but a series that meets almost all of them can't beause its also targeted toward someone else.

You know, this is why I hate genre labels, because it leads to pointless discussions like this. How about this for a rule, if it makes you happy, watch it, if it doesn't don't, forget about your age/sex and just enjoy yourself, thats the point of anime to begin with.

[Onibaba]

Some nice reads on this last page, the paragraph regarding s1 op/end made me realize how much I miss having the beginning of "Waltz" slowly start up at the end of each episode.

And yes, Honey & Clover is josei.

Theowne: really diggin` the signature : )

[fizzer123]

Great themes Theowne, i look forward to visiting your site regularly

Honey and Clover is Josei- but really, does it matter? Men who are afraid of watching this series because it is "girly" are doing no favours to themselves. Those fools can keep Naruto!!! (no offence to any Naruto fans out there)

[tritoch]

meh its hybrid seinen and josei

[arias]

Honey & Clover make men do things with tissue that they have never done.. despite their familiarity : >