Aldnoah.Zero - generic discussion thread

[Domonkazu]

imo best part of eps 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhTAHVa7H1A

can't wait for full version

[bigdeath]

Eh, whether or not 30 years is enough time is honestly completely unimportant to me. Easily hand waved away by me not caring.

[DMurphy]

Well, by the time of the American Revolution, America wasn't really a big deal anymore, because India had become so much more drastically important to the Empire, but the point still stands regardless, I think.

I'm trying to think of a good example of something similar to Mars' apparent eagerness to go a-invading, and I'm struggling, to be honest. I mean, yes, Germany did undergo a cultural sea change in about thirty years, but the circumstances were fairly unique: They had lost a world war, their economy had basically run itself into the ground, their people were starving, desperate, and resentful, and those were the circumstances that made the rapid rise of the Nazis possible.

Mars doesn't seem to have had anything like that at all.

[Reckoner]

A bunch of people discovering alien technology that is powerful enough to conquer the world without the ability to check their power? I think that's a pretty massive change. We don't know enough about the initial motivation of the invaders or anyone involved. There is a lot to sort out here. It's just one episode.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Do you think one of America's first few Presidents would have felt comfortable launching a brutal land invasion of England, massacring countless English people, with the Americans thinking of the English as people radically different from their pioneering selves? Speaking personally, I find the idea utterly preposterous, and it's not far off from what we're seeing here when you consider what a big deal the discovery of the Americas was historically.

So I think your main argument is pretty far off the mark.

The German people were somehow convinced in the span of 20 years that locking up all the Jewish people in concentration camps and exterminating them was a perfectly valid thing to do. Humanity is basically capable of any amount of evil.

[Triple_R]

I don't see what the Nazis have to do with anything here. The Nazis are drastically different from what we have here. My America/England analogy is much, much closer to what we have here.

WWII-era Germany was a long-established nation with a very long history and strong ethnic/racial identities amongst its people. Anti-semitism had been commonplace throughout Europe for a long time. It's not like it all just sprouted up from out of nowhere in 30 years or less.

I'm honestly amazed that some people here don't seem to get the point that I'm making. It's not a question of evil, or people becoming corrupted by power. It's a question of how long it takes for a very strong and completely new ethnonational identity to take root amongst a group of explorers; an identity so strong that it would eradicate any sense of connection to the people that the explorers left behind. 30 years isn't even close to enough, in my opinion.

[FlareKnight]

I don't think it's that big a stretch. All you need is the people on the top to be a little unhinged. Those who feel the same will be promoted into positions of power and they'll spread those views down to those below them. The people of Mars in general don't have to be very racist, just enough to turn a blind eye to the actions of the more vocal people. What might be a little bit of racism for that general populace could lead to some terrible things if the people at the top have enough power and are motivated enough.

I think you can find examples of being being able to escalate very quickly. You get into those world wars and suddenly people are throwing citizens with Japanese heritage into internment camps. Bit trickier to pull examples of a newly formed society getting racist in a hurry since brand new countries aren't formed every day.

If we really want to go with the America example, I'll say maybe. We're talking about a people coming out of a brutal war that was fought in their own territory. With the right leader in charge preaching the right message it's possible. Sure, I bet people were happy about forming their nation but they probably had a lot of feelings of anger and frustration towards the British. If a president wanted to jump onto that and create a racial debate it may have worked. The absence of it happening doesn't mean it's impossible.

In the end I can buy it.

Originally Posted by Domonkazu

imo best part of eps 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhTAHVa7H1A

can't wait for full version

On a more fun topic. Yeah, it was definitely the best part of the episode. A great song kicking in at a big moment. Looking forward to hearing the full version as well.

[Vezon]

So how many people had to migrate to Mars to build a Empire that stands toe to toe with earth?!

The premise is okay, but the timeline is strange. The moon being blown up had me facepalming.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I don't see what the Nazis have to do with anything here. The Nazis are drastically different from what we have here. My America/England analogy is much, much closer to what we have here.

Germany was a long-established nation with a very long history and strong ethnic/racial identities amongst its people. Anti-semitism had been commonplace throughout Europe for a long time. It's not like it all just sprouted up from out of nowhere in 30 years or less.

I'm honestly amazed that some people here don't seem to get the point that I'm making.

To bolster your point: everyone, please reread my post in the last page, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhineland_massacres

I sometimes feel like posts that don't jive with one's argument are selectively read or outright ignored.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Do you think one of America's first few Presidents would have felt comfortable launching a brutal land invasion of England, massacring countless English people, with the Americans thinking of the English as people radically different from their pioneering selves? Speaking personally, I find the idea utterly preposterous, and it's not far off from what we're seeing here when you consider what a big deal the discovery of the Americas was historically.

So I think your main argument is pretty far off the mark.

Yup, and America had already been forming its own identity for over 100 years at that point, and it would still have been preposterous.

Not to mention the large amount of loyalists and neutral parties that didn't even want to separate from Britain prior to the American Revolution

[IceHism]

Is the timeline really that important? Is the 1999 and 2014 in this anime suppose to represent what our world is capable of? I think it would be best to ask that first. I mean if a race of humans became fevorish over alien technology on mars, I don't think it would take too long before they start hating earth,

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by IceHism

Is the timeline really that important? Is the 1999 and 2014 in this anime suppose to represent what our world is capable of? I think it would be best to ask that first. I mean if a race of humans became fevorish over alien technology on mars, I don't think it would take too long before they start hating earth,

What makes it frustrating is that it's a detail that ruins the suspension of disbelief for a lot of people. Along with the moon issue, it is a sour note in an otherwise interesting premise.

As for humanity hating Earth, that's what we're discussing, and given the timeline, it seems pretty hard to swallow that the bridge between the colonists and Earthlings would be completely burned in such a short time span.

[felix]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

The German people were somehow convinced in the span of 20 years that locking up all the Jewish people in concentration camps and exterminating them was a perfectly valid thing to do. Humanity is basically capable of any amount of evil.

Evil is merely the furthering of a groups goals as seen by another group; typically in disfavor of said group.

Just about EVERY single group in history that's been big enough to mention has done what we see with our little martian friends. Sure, after a while people figured out using the word "Empire" kind of has drawbacks, so they came with more pleasant to the ear names like "Common Wealth" or "United States" or some religious something or other, etc, but for all intents and purposes group A doesn't give a damn about group B unless group B is seen as aiding it.

If we do send say even as little as a few hundred to Mars expect their primary directives to kick in and have them rebel, if contact isn't maintained. And lets face it in the context of the story at hand, they hardly had the technological means to maintain it.

Groups are defined, first by division A is in one place, B is another place (where "place" may be abstract), and secondly by group ideals. When everyone around you is a crazy asshole you either become a crazy asshole or get ostracized, eventually new members born into the group only have the ideals of crazy assholes. With out strong bonds to other groups, which colonists rarely tend to have, what incentive would they have not to become crazy assholes if enough raised that as the group ideal?

Words are generally sugar coated, but all that's required really is "Not of our group, Evil" and you rally everyone to the "cause." You don't need to look into history books, you can see this while walking down the street if you know what to look for.

[GreyZone]

This sounds very much like a Sawano OST, got AoT vibes music wise at the end of the episode. Am I correct?

Also I got the feeling that the supposed "princess that was hit by the missile" and the "princess that was riding that elevator" before, are different people, i.e. it was a body double that died. I think so because her face was not shown when she exited the car.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

I don't think it's that big a stretch.

It's a totally massive stretch.

All you need is the people on the top to be a little unhinged. Those who feel the same will be promoted into positions of power and they'll spread those views down to those below them. The people of Mars in general don't have to be very racist, just enough to turn a blind eye to the actions of the more vocal people.

Some people here are talking of racism like it comes from absolutely nowhere. Racism is rooted in a strong sense of racial/ethnic identity, which is like an extended family tree. 30 years is not enough time for a group of explorers to feel genetically cut off from the people left behind.

If you moved to Mars now, right now, as part of a big colony, do you think you'd feel no connection to Earth or its people in 30 years time as a much older adult?

If we really want to go with the America example, I'll say maybe.

No, absolutely not. Like ChainLegacy and I wrote, it would be preposterous.

Originally Posted by felix

Evil is merely the furthering of a groups goals as seen by another group; typically in disfavor of said group.

I strongly disagree. Some things really are evil, and I think most people are capable of realizing that.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

The princess is the one who voiced her perception of earth as a mythical homeland. Both she and Slain are not old enough to remember earth. Until recently they were unable to even reach earth as they had to procure enough technology to travel back to earth. So yes, Earth would be a practically mythical place to them as all they know is Mars.

I have no problems with the Martian society feeling like a different race because even in our world we still have petty things like racism. If the color of your skin or your religion is enough to spark such strong feelings I would think a massive war that hurt both populations, scarred the earth permanently, and stranded a huge chunk of Martian citiziens in the earth's orbit would be more than enough reason for such strong rejection of each other's existences.

Actually, Slaine was born on Earth (which is why they call him a Terran) and he of course remembers Earth. That's why he's teaching the Princess about Earth. She asks if he misses it and about things on Earth as if he's seen it, so he lived on Earth, at least for a little while.

I do think that the Martians thinking themselves a whole other race, and the others including the counts and servants all thinking of humanity and Earth as some ancient homeland is a little farfetched, especially in only about three decades.

Racism didn't happen overnight either, it took far more than three decades to culminate such ideas and feelings that were passed down through subsequent generations. Anyway you look at it, only 30 years is a very small timeline. I mean, most of those knights look 30 years old or older themselves! Why do all of them think of Earth as if they've only heard of it in myth?

[Iron Maw]

Well now perhaps this really is turning into the next Guilty Crown, just as creators wanted.

Originally Posted by Albel VII

Uh, I just re-cheked what series composition is, and it seems you're right, I'm sorry.

But what is story composition then? AniDB credited Urobuchi as the story compositor as well, that's why I thought that he is the one who came up with the majority of plot.

Story composition is probably meant to be Series composition which basically designates a person as the Chief Writer, but it isn't Urobucher in this case. IIRC, before this became an weekly anime thread some posters had speculated from some clues that Urobuchi wasn't as heavily involved with Aldnoah as the promos advertised. Original creator just means he came up with base concepts for the story, but others developed and refined it. Urobuchi just acted as consultant afterwords, and will likely stay in that in position beyond the contracted 3 episodes. So in reality he has no control over the direction of the overall plot.

Essentially crediting someone as Original Creator is no different crediting a manga/LN author in an adaptation.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

That's insane. I'm sorry, but that's honestly insane. The only way this works at all is if you assume that just about every single person who went to Mars is a complete and utter psychopath/sociopath.

Maybe mass world brainwashing (Geass style!) was instigated by Ray at one point using the alien tech... Yeah that's all I got. Total cop-out I know.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Iron Maw

Maybe mass world brainwashing (Geass style!) was instigated by Ray at one point using the alien tech... Yeah that's all I got. Total cop-out I know.

What's sad is that I'd honestly take that over the alternative of no explanation at all.

[MCAL]

If there's something Hunter x Hunter has told me is to never deny humanity's capacity for malice.

I agree. It's not really that big of a stretch. Given the right technology, civilizations can be made quite quickly.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by Iron Maw

Maybe mass world brainwashing (Geass style!) was instigated by Ray at one point using the alien tech... Yeah that's all I got. Total cop-out I know.

Well they guy does look like Charles Vi Britannia a little, just younger.

[rickiminato]

So the vers empire are not ancient humans ,are humans of the earth that utilized the alien technology of the moon

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by MCAL

If there's something Hunter x Hunter has told me is to never deny humanity's capacity for malice.

This isn't about a capacity for malice, in and of itself. It's about people feeling no connection to a massive homeland that they're only a generation and a half removed from. The idea really is very hard for me to swallow. Just think of all the people who consider themselves XXXX-Americans or XXXX-Canadians, feeling a strong attachment to a nation of origin that they may not have lived in for decades. Heck, the World Cup of Soccer alone makes it clear how strong these sorts of connections are decades after a migration has taken place.

Given the right technology, civilizations can be made quite quickly.

It wouldn't mean that people would feel no attachment to the civilization they were born in and grew up in though.

At least if we were working with 70 or more years, you'd have a situation where very few if any Martians would have living/growing up on Earth as a personal history.

I don't know why they didn't just set this story somewhere in the 2050s or a bit later. It wouldn't be so far in the future you'd have to make drastic changes to the setting, but it would effectively avoid the issues that some of us have with the setting as is.