Character Discussion - Kallen

[SonOfHeaven]

Originally Posted by Lolipopo

Where is my gum line seriously. Why did they took off Kallen's most important line ? CC's, Nunally's, and even Anya's were there and were REALLY meaningful for their characters.

I'm really going to think that they simply didn't have the guts to kill the open shipping ending in the series itself, I don't see any other reason to have took off Kallen's most important line.

I WANT MY GUM LINE BACK !

Speaking of which. I heard from one of my friends that the Zero Requiem special edition Blu-ray which comes out in July is suppose to have new dubbed parts for the show. I hope it turns out true.

[Nobodyman9]

Hmm, refresh my memory. What was the gumline again?

BTW, to whoever repped me for my Citizen Kane gif, thanks But I really wish I knew who you were.

[bladeofdarkness]

"if you say something like i love you/her i will never forgive you"
or something like that

[Nobodyman9]

So Kallen was supposed to say that? Do you know in what context? Cause so far I don't see how that's proof of Lelouch loving her.

*braces for wall of text*

[bladeofdarkness]

if we knew things would be much simpler
some (non kalulu's) say that its ment to be aimed at C.C
others (kalulu's) say that its ment to be said to lelouch at some point
but the importent part is that it implys that a scene was removed from the original script (the script was completed long before the eps aired, which means that its NOT the line she says in ep 24)
something is missing
and given the context of the line, and the fact that its suppose to be an importent character defining line
i dont think it could have been directed at anyone other then lelouch
which means kallen gets one more scene with lelouch that was removed

[yvj]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

So Kallen was supposed to say that? Do you know in what context? Cause so far I don't see how that's proof of Lelouch loving her.

*braces for wall of text*

Sonny boy thank your lucky stars for the cutting of that gumline. If that context was anywhere in the vicinity of Lelouch well unless they're interrupted again it's unlikely Mr. Emperor has a chance to remain silent for a second time.

Oh lawd if you thought those poems did anything to fuel folk, that would have rocked your world .

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by yvj

Sonny boy thank your lucky stars for the cutting of that gumline. If that context was anywhere in the vicinity of Lelouch well unless they're interrupted again it's unlikely Mr. Emperor has a chance to remain silent for a second time.

Oh lawd if you thought those poems did anything to fuel folk, that would have rocked your world .

A true Knight of Shirlulu can stand up to any barrage of Kalulu love, no matter how strong.

You know what, actually I kinda do hope they put that (and maybe other) scenes into the ZR DVD Special edition if only to finally see it once and for all. Plus it'd be cool to see some new scenes.

[azul120]

The distinction between him lying to Nunnally and him not lying to Kallen was because in the former case it was one of his typical "lies to accomplish something". Had he not lied to Nunnally, his ZR plans would have been jeopardized.

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by azul120

The distinction between him lying to Nunnally and him not lying to Kallen was because in the former case it was one of his typical "lies to accomplish something". Had he not lied to Nunnally, his ZR plans would have been jeopardized.

It doesn't jeapordize anything, it would just end up with him and Nunally seeking the same goal. He wouldn't have "lost" ZR, she would have just been involved in it. The point is, he wanted to keep her, just like Kallen, out of it. Those are the only two people he went lengths for to keep out of the plan despite how much trouble they caused him.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

It doesn't jeapordize anything, it would just end up with him and Nunally seeking the same goal. He wouldn't have "lost" ZR, she would have just been involved in it. The point is, he wanted to keep her, just like Kallen, out of it. Those are the only two people he went lengths for to keep out of the plan despite how much trouble they caused him.

You sure? If anything, I'd think Nunnally would've tried at all costs to stop him from going through with it, if she knew. Well regardless, I think it was just a lot simpler for Lelouch to just lie to her.

[yvj]

Wouldn't it have been simpler and more beneficial to lie to Kallen?

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

You sure? If anything, I'd think Nunnally would've tried at all costs to stop him from going through with it, if she knew. Well regardless, I think it was just a lot simpler for Lelouch to just lie to her.

Much as yvj said, and to continue the point, he could have said nothing to Nunally all the same and she would have ended up exactly where she ended up. The distinction between Kallen and Nunally falls, in my opinion, in the evolution of his character. He grew up past Nunally and grew something else for Kallen. You have a strict inversion of what Lelouch once never dared do, for something he did often. Lying to one, but not the other.

He could have lied to both, accomplished the same thing.
He could have said nothing, accomplishing the same thing.

[Nobodyman9]

^Hmm, I'm not prepared to dispute that.

[azul120]

I'm not sure.

The Lelouch/Kallen was an intimate physical moment. The Lelouch/Nunnally was spoken over teleconference, with the other person being blind. I have no idea how Lelouch could have not said anything in such a way that pushed her away from ZR without communicating any lies.

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by azul120

I'm not sure.

The Lelouch/Kallen was an intimate physical moment. The Lelouch/Nunnally was spoken over teleconference, with the other person being blind. I have no idea how Lelouch could have not said anything in such a way that pushed her away from ZR without communicating any lies.

Hanging up? In affect there are many options he could have taken, he could have just as easily not addressed her but talked to Schneizel bipassing Nunally entirely. She'd still be opposed in either situation.

In either scenario, between Nunally and Kallen, the situation unfolds unpredictably for Lelouch. He did not expect to see Nunally alive, much as he did not expect to see Kallen greeting him. (We know that her being there was a feet in and of itself, since she had to sign her death warrant if she so much as tripped.) The methods of motion, however, are very different for Lelouch.

On one stage, he asks for more time with one.
On the other stage, he condemns the person and lies flatly.

In either situation he could have simply disregarded and shunned both, or ignored both. But he treats one differently. Compare, consequently to how he ignores Rivalz/Milly. There are mannerisms in Lelouch's actions towards Kallen and Nunally that are conspicuous, to say the least. The entire detour scene is entirely meaningless for ZR and has no value for the show outside of the last intimate moment by any two characters in the show proper. Lelouch, in a stage when all he cared about was ZR, did something with no relation to ZR and even later endangered it. (Kool-aid man.)

Ever wonder why?

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

Hanging up? In affect there are many options he could have taken, he could have just as easily not addressed her but talked to Schneizel bipassing Nunally entirely. She'd still be opposed in either situation.

In either scenario, between Nunally and Kallen, the situation unfolds unpredictably for Lelouch. He did not expect to see Nunally alive, much as he did not expect to see Kallen greeting him. (We know that her being there was a feet in and of itself, since she had to sign her death warrant if she so much as tripped.) The methods of motion, however, are very different for Lelouch.

On one stage, he asks for more time with one.
On the other stage, he condemns the person and lies flatly.

Keep in mind it wasn't a one-on-one chat with Nunnally. He had to sell it to both her and Schneizel and anyone else who might be listening. Besides, you seriously think he's just going to hang up or remain silent to his sister who he thought was dead and is now a major force behind what he has to defeat?

In either situation he could have simply disregarded and shunned both, or ignored both. But he treats one differently. Compare, consequently to how he ignores Rivalz/Milly. There are mannerisms in Lelouch's actions towards Kallen and Nunally that are conspicuous, to say the least. The entire detour scene is entirely meaningless for ZR and has no value for the show outside of the last intimate moment by any two characters in the show proper. Lelouch, in a stage when all he cared about was ZR, did something with no relation to ZR and even later endangered it. (Kool-aid man.)

Lelouch did a lot of things during his time as Emperor and I don't every single action he took, whether it was brushing his teeth or taking a minute longer to get dressed, was essential to ZR (No, I'm not equating his meeting with Kallen to him getting dressed, I'm just saying he doesn't have to think about ZR with every single thing he does) Besides, he lost nothing by taking a long detour with Kallen. She was his most loyal subordinate and he wanted to have one final farewell for him and be sure where she would stand during ZR. Besides, it's not like he ever took that meeting all that seriously (He had it held in a freaking gymnasium)

Ever wonder why?

No, not really. Not till you guys brought it up anyway.

[azul120]

Maybe I'm grasping at straws, but my other guess is because since Nunnally was in a leadership role and was quite possibly going to be his replacement as leader once his whole plan was finished, as opposed to Kallen who would more likely than not return to civilian life, he apparently wanted her to be in full opposition to him so she could press on with her duty with no regrets. (Though we all know how that turned out.)

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by azul120

I'm not sure.

The Lelouch/Kallen was an intimate physical moment. The Lelouch/Nunnally was spoken over teleconference, with the other person being blind. I have no idea how Lelouch could have not said anything in such a way that pushed her away from ZR without communicating any lies.

Everything Lelouch said to Nunally could have been viewed as a skewed truth, which Lelouch was the king of doing.

Condemning her as never dirtying her hands, yet scorning the actions others take? True. She did this alot as Viceroy, simply telling Rohmeyer to keep revising documents until they suited her by not hampering the Japanese. Does she ever ask to sit down and look at these documents and understand the possible ramifications against the Britannians? No, she gets chummy with Kallen.

Not doing this for her? True. He doesn't say what his motivation was in the past, just that now it isn't for her.

Wanting the world for his own sake? True. He wants it as part of ZR.

Willing to crush her if she goes against him? True. Side materials about C.C. said that he was willing to kill Nunally, yet he didn't hate C.C. for giving him the Geass that led him down this path, since he chose to walk it.

[bladeofdarkness]

even if you say that its not techniclly lies
it doesnt erase the fact that he basiclly tells nunnaly "you represent everything that i hate and despise"
and he does so in the most brutal of ways possible
for a man who almost got SHOT for refusing to pretend on the phone that he doesnt know who he is talking to...
thats a very big change
and if contrasted with his earlier treatment of kallen in ep 22, the change becomes even more evident

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

even if you say that its not techniclly lies
it doesnt erase the fact that he basiclly tells nunnaly "you represent everything that i hate and despise"
and he does so in the most brutal of ways possible
for a man who almost got SHOT for refusing to pretend on the phone that he doesnt know who he is talking to...
thats a very big change
and if contrasted with his earlier treatment of kallen in ep 22, the change becomes even more evident

That's a very valid point, and I don't disagree with you that Lelouch changed quite a bit over the series. His attitudes towards people certainly changed (all too frequently) throughout, and Nunnally was no exception. However, one thing that didn't change was how Lelouch felt about her. No matter what, he always loved his dear sister (not that you're disputing that) However, his feelings did change for Kallen, in that she went from being just a loyal soldier to a MIP.

More to the point though, I think the main difference between his phone call with Nunnally in Turn 5/6 and his convo with her in Turn 23 is that in Turn 5/6 he still had a chance of reuniting with Nunnally and living a happy life with her and he didn't want to do anything to jeopardize that. However, in Turn 23 he was fully committed to ZR, willing to go so far as to kill his sister, so it really didn't matter what she thought of him. But, I fear I may be going OT now.