(L+CR) Chihayafuru

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

Well, I happen to think that, if we approach Chihayafuru only through psychology, we're missing something.

Oh, certainly. How about this: a structuralist analysis I think will supply real-world context--for example, how clubs work--which permits one to understand how this club is distinctive from others. Psychological analysis focuses on individual characters and their development, and seems better suited at drawing out the particulars of character and plot. It doesn't necessarily achieve that (shoehorning characters into Freudian models for example,) but it can, in a way foreclosed to any approach that models the show according to common language and experience. In any case, it can't tell the whole story, as you point out. For instance, it can't get at karuta itself.

I believe I have been saying something like this!

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

The structural analysis of the club does have a purpose, though, in that you can organise the club in many ways. You've repeatedly talked about it in terms of "right" or "wrong", but that is not what I'm primarily interested in, at least not at that point (too little information).

This is a crucial point of difference between us, so I want to push it a little. I do think there is a "right" or "wrong" in the show, one based on karuta itself. You will be aware of that, from everything I have written hitherto about the ethos of karuta. It seems to me that the main narrative movement of the episodes to date has been to illustrate this ethos, usually by having Taichi propose some ordinary rational way of doing things, only to be counterpointed by Chihaya taking a different approach that fits more closely with the traditions of karuta. I think there has been an abundance of information about this, not too little. I am interested in it since it is what I think the show is all about.

Golly, Dawnstorm, are we watching the same show?

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

I agree with you that the club is a vehicle for the expression of those characters. The formal limitations on what a club needs, then, is certainly not determining their actions, but these limits pose a complication, and how you treat them, given the club-as-character-expression, shows your approach to life. This is why Taichi and Chihaya's relationship transfers into the club as organisational principles, and this is also why "right" and "wrong" doesn't really come into it.

The show is invested in illustrating an approach to life based on karuta specifically. The characters are learning that approach, and their personal approaches to life and their relationships are being shaped accordingly. I agree that the "formal limits" of the club "pose a complication" which illustrates this ethos. But the rest of what you say does not follow. Taichi and Chihaya's relationship do not "transfer[] into the club as organizational principles." The club is not organized according to their personalities or their joint relationship, but according to karuta itself.

What does that mean? The close of the episode shows both Tsutomu and Kana joining Chihaya in her passion for karuta. They declare their intention to participate in the club in order to realize for themselves the passion she exemplifies. As I said previously, this passion--while reflective of her personality--derives from the example of Arata and ultimately from the life made possible by the traditions of karuta itself. The "organizational principle" of the club is this passion: we see it in the narrative enfolding the characters within it. There is more to the ethos of karuta than just passion, but we see that aspect of it very clearly here.

To attempt to understand the show only in terms of clubs, or in terms of Chihaya and Taichi's personalities, or in terms of their relationship--how did you put it? I'll use your own words: Well, I happen to think that, if we approach Chihayafuru only through those things, we're missing something. In fact nothing less than karuta itself.

Karuta is not just a site, a stage for the display of characters, relationships, and the organizational dynamics of clubs. To the contrary: all these things come forward to illustrate karuta, and to be illuminated in turn by its light. This is a show that is about karuta.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

I certainly agree that this is Chihaya's club. Taichi's presidency is a formality, and little more. But it's a formality that is necessary. And on the practical level, I think, this does play out as character difference. Taichi is simply better at that sort of stuff, and what's more, Chihaya is happy to leave it to him (taking the role as "captain").

She is? She doesn't understand why sensei made the decision, and insists on being captain precisely in order to circumvent it. She doesn't fight it, since it doesn't matter--she's in charge, whatever the title happens to be.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

That is part of what makes the relationship between them stable (which is not the same as "beneficial"; I do think it can be beneficial to both of them, but that's conditional). It's this stability of their relationship, I think, that maps onto the club and gives the other members a sense of security.

Golly, I think you are reading this into the text. Where do you see the other members having a sense of security?

Actually, when Chihaya apologizes, the other characters are confused, don't understand why she is doing so, and rather ratify her pushiness. They are not afraid of her (in the way they are of Taichi's mom, Mrs. Pressure, as Chihaya calls her)--not because Taichi is there to protect them, but since they are in basic sympathy with Chihaya's passion for karuta.

Now I'm snipping lots of interesting stuff, for sake of time and since I am sure we will have a chance to discuss it later.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

Yes, but he's failing because he's doing most of the work, and working within a framework set by Chihaya. See, I don't see situational failure as failure of a method. We do not get to see a club dominated by Chihaya; but neither do we see a club devoid of Taichi's practical input. Thus taking a result and attributing it to either Taichi or Chihaya is impossible. You're trying to compare individual input; I'm looking at a social process. I think that's pretty much where we're at odds. Why I didn't think I was making your point for you.

The concept of a social process is very intriguing. I'm wondering how that will work in the inter-club competitions. More for later, I'm sure.

But at least on this are things clear? It is not individual input, but the role of karuta as a distinctive organizational model, that describes my own understanding of the show, and where you and I differ.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

My point is basically that we do not see a club where Chihaya lacks the moderation of Taichi; but neither do we see a club that lacks the motivational input of Chihaya. Thus we can't easily allocate success.

Well, Chihaya learns from Taichi, and the moderation is presumably her own at this point.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

And yet her solitary attempt at creating the club proved a spectacular failure. Nobody showed up, and she merely stared out of the window moodily. This is passion taking the form of obsession. An all-or-nothing approach whose flipside is frustration. Taichi provided an environment in which she could put her passion to good use.

Not really. She maintains her obsession, suffers its concomitant frustration, until she realizes her object. As I said, Taichi is swept up in her divine wind. Why ascribe a role to him on account of this? You might as well make a leaf the partner to the wind...

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

If they keep up this dance, with Taichi slowing her down again and again, and she feeling like that again and again, then their complementarity will lead into desaster. I agree with that. But if Chihaya's club without Taichi? She would dominate too much, and then - when something happens - this sort of feeling will hit with a vengeance. A Chihaya-dominated club would be - for Chihaya - a giant frustration battery. She wouldn't have felt any better had they collapsed, and the practical implications for the club might have been more severe. (Not to mention that the other club members wouldn't have been there to cheer her up afterwards, having collapsed and all.)

I'm not sure how to argue this, since this is a Chihaya-dominated club. Chihaya learns from Taichi, but that doesn't give him a functional role or make the club any less dominated by her.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

I refuse to choose sides.

I choose karuta.

Seriously, the show invites you to make that choice. To stay aloof from it is also a choice, and a side. It is to run away from karuta...

[Last Sinner]

Chihaya and Taichi are good foils for each other. What's so wrong with that?! Chihaya has the passion and belief, Taichi keeps her ambition and actions in check. Seems like a good combo to me. Definitely the most engaging duo for me to watch this year. This show is by far the best show I've seen air this year. So they make mistakes and get in arguments. They're people, they're growing up. Sounds pretty normal to me. Really think some people should just chill more when they watch this show. Tends to be a more fulfilling watch when you step back a bit and just accept the show and characters for what they are.

And my avatar from Episode 9 indicates which moment I totally swooned over.

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by Last Sinner

Really think some people should just chill more when they watch this show. Tends to be a more fulfilling watch when you step back a bit and just accept the show and characters for what they are.

Heh, don't worry, I'm not watching the show hunched forward over a notepad. I can easily separate this sort of talk from the watching experience. If I couldn't, I actually wouldn't have anything to say. So why talk like that on the webs then? Well, hyperborealis is helping me appreciate the show more with his comments, because I tend to miss things, and may overemphasise others.

That, and going into that sort of detail is fun (for some... ). Seriously, if you guys think that this wall of text is taking over and isn't all that interesting, we could always take it to PM, or e-mail. It's something I keep worrying about. I really don't want to hog forum space.

@hyperborealis: Not much time now, reply later. Possibly only after seeing episode 10, which may change the picture...

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

I'm not sure how to argue this, since this is a Chihaya-dominated club. Chihaya learns from Taichi, but that doesn't give him a functional role or make the club any less dominated by her.

The show is as much about karuta as it is about any of the characters. Chihaya (and the rest of the club for that matter) is passionate about karuta while Taichi is not. And so, his place in the pecking order is lower by default until he attains that passion. I haven't read the manga, but it's really obvious that he will at some point.

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

I choose karuta.

Seriously, the show invites you to make that choice. To stay aloof from it is also a choice, and a side. It is to run away from karuta...

You chose wisely.

The show doesn't really make it a meaningful choice though. It goes out of its way to show karuta in as positive a light as possible, and fully embracing karuta is of the highest virtue. It's just like Hikaru no Go where rejecting go isn't a real option.

[Kazu-kun]

Just watched episode 10. I was surprised they adapted two chapters in one episode. That's a good pacing right there. Hope they'll keep up!

As for the episode, I'll just say this:

Taichi is a fu@king hero.

If this guy is like this now, just imaging how cool he's going to be once the passion for Karuta finally overtakes him. Just thinking about it is turning me gay or something .

[Anh_Minh]

That was a nice ep. Taichi really shone, there.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

The show is as much about karuta as it is about any of the characters. Chihaya (and the rest of the club for that matter) is passionate about karuta while Taichi is not. And so, his place in the pecking order is lower by default until he attains that passion. I haven't read the manga, but it's really obvious that he will at some point.

I disagree. Tsutomu isn't passionate about Karuta itself. I think he sees it as a way to go beyond himself, to grow. And Kana's love is directed toward the aesthetics of old Japan, not really the game. Sure, they both want to win, but neither has anywhere near the drive or focus on Karuta that Chihaya has.

As for Porky - sure, he likes karuta. But he's pretty easy going about it.

As for Taichi... He's aloof, that's true. But there's a fire under that. He isn't playing just to indulge Chihaya. Also, ep 10 showcased how passion isn't enough. What Taichi brings - stability, poise, concern over the team dynamics - are also necessary.

[hyperborealis]

Excellent episode.

Not much time, but just a couple short comments for now.

Taichi clearly does take on a central role here as coach and leader of the team. The moment where he scatters his cards to break up the losing rhythm and then pats everyone on the head is a marvelous sequence. I like that he connects with everyone, and encourages them all, and not just Chihaya, the person he is chiefly preoccupied about. Taichi is the only one on the team who acts, and Chihaya clearly needs him, as she is lost in her own emotional fugue.

If I've scanted his role previously, I can't do so now. The evidence is clear.

He has a ways to go however before he grows into this role. He needs to know when to shut Nishida up, for instance. He also needs a deeper appreciation of how the other team members feel. No less than Chihaya, he had no idea what Tsutomu was feeling. He also needs to control himself, as that brief instance where he gets a grip on himself illustrates. After all, his conversation with Nishida on player order played a direct role in Tsutomu's outburst, and consequently to Chihaya's collapse on the tatami. And it was his telling Chihaya that she needed to win that contributed to the pressure on her, which then pushed her into her fugue.

But the other key moment in Chihaya's resurgence is owing to Tsutomu, and specifically to the conversation he overhears while sitting out the match. After he hears the other person say of his team, "I guess they don't respect karuta," then he can sit back no longer and then races to get back to the game floor. He peers through the crack in the door, and it is the sight of him standing there, returning to the team, along with Taichi's heroics, to use Kazu-kun's word, that restores Chihaya to herself.

The episode was about becoming a team, and about how respect for karuta must be at its heart.

--------------

If anyone doubts there is a wrong way to play karuta, I give you Hokuo Academy. What a bunch of evil creeps!

--------------

Japanese language question: are there untranslated connotations implicit in Taichi's advice to Chihaya that she just "breathe'?

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

Excellent episode.

Not much time, but just a couple short comments for now.

Taichi clearly does take on a central role here as coach and leader of the team. The moment where he scatters his cards to break up the losing rhythm and then pats everyone on the head is a marvelous sequence. I like that he connects with everyone, and encourages them all, and not just Chihaya, the person he is chiefly preoccupied about. Taichi is the only one on the team who acts, and Chihaya clearly needs him, as she is lost in her own emotional fugue.

If I've scanted his role previously, I can't do so now. The evidence is clear.

He has a ways to go however before he grows into this role. He needs to know when to shut Nishida up, for instance.

Shutting someone up would cause its own problems.

He also needs a deeper appreciation of how the other team members feel. No less than Chihaya,

Oh, I'd say a lot less than Chihaya. He doesn't need the situation to blow up in his face before he at least tries. But no, he's no mindreader.

he had no idea what Tsutomu was feeling. He also needs to control himself, as that brief instance where he gets a grip on himself illustrates.

No one's perfect. It's two points where he could get better, yes, but I don't demand perfection, and he's already doing pretty well.

After all, his conversation with Nishida on player order played a direct role in Tsutomu's outburst, and consequently to Chihaya's collapse on the tatami.

That conversation was inconsiderate, yes. But it wasn't wrong, tactically speaking. Tsutomu got hurt because he was arrogant. He, indeed, didn't respect karuta. He thought just being smart and cramming before the tournament would make him the equal of players with years of practice. To Taichi and Nikkuman, it's obvious it wasn't the case, and they spoke accordingly.

And it was his telling Chihaya that she needed to win that contributed to the pressure on her, which then pushed her into her fugue.

I don't read that scene like that. I think Taichi saw Chihaya was already being affected, and tried to get her to focus on the win rather than on Tsutomu. I think it was too little to have much of an effect, but not that it was counterproductive.

[Kanon]

In retrospect, the grumpy teacher's done the team a HUGE favor by forcing the team to appoint Taichi as president. It would have been disastrous if Chiahaya had remained the leader. Taichi is turning out to be well-suited to that role, and although he isn't perfect yet, he's getting better by the day. His cool-headedness and his sharp mind saved everybody's butt.

The other star of the episode was Kana for me. I adored the discussion she had to Tsutomu at the end of the episode. I didn't expect her to be the one to open Tsutomu's eyes (in a manner of speaking... why do so many people keep their eyes closed in this anime anyway? ), she's even more determined than I thought. I love her terrific business sense too!

I can't wait to see next week's match! I'm really warming up to Karuta. Speaking of which, I'm a bit confused as to how those team matches work. More specifically, I don't understand the result of the last match... there were only four people playing and the final score was 3-2... how does that work?

[Blaat]

This show is marvellous, I can't get enough of it. Taichi pepping up the team and Kana/Tsutomu conversation at the end were the highlights of the episode for me.

Originally Posted by Kanon

there were only four people playing and the final score was 3-2... how does that work?

In sports when a player doesn't show up (or without a replacement in team sports) it's usually considered a forfeit which is an automatic win for the opponent, so that's why the score was 3-2.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Kanon

In retrospect, the grumpy teacher's done the team a HUGE favor by forcing the team to appoint Taichi as president. It would have been disastrous if Chiahaya had remained the leader.

Yes and no. I have no doubt Taichi's a better president, but in this instance, I'd say it would have played out the same no matter what the official roles were. They're small enough that leadership is almost entirely a matter of personality rather than rules. As you can see whenever Chihaya runs roughshod over the president.

[ThereminVox]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yes and no. I have no doubt Taichi's a better president, but in this instance, I'd say it would have played out the same no matter what the official roles were. They're small enough that leadership is almost entirely a matter of personality rather than rules. As you can see whenever Chihaya runs roughshod over the president.

Indeed, and sometimes she needs to. She's the heart of the team, and I don't think Taichi as he is now could have brought the rest of the team to the state of enthusiasm and confidence that they needed to make it so far so fast. He's invaluable at keeping the train from going off the rails, though, no question

I wonder if the teacher knew he'd be good in the leadership role, or if she was just spiting Chihaya?

[Kirarakim]

Wonderful episode and I definitely just love those team matches: when Taichi patted everyone's head and scattered the cards shocking everyone, when Tsutomu stood up for Chihaya and came back, when Kana ran after Tsutomu and he congratulated her, when Chihaya showed her stuff....okay I was squeeing the whole time.

I wish I had something more insightful to say but I just have this huge grin on my face.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by ThereminVox

I wonder if the teacher knew he'd be good in the leadership role, or if she was just spiting Chihaya?

I'm 100% sure she knew Chihaya wasn't a good choice for president, since her single-minded attitude is pretty well known. Whether she knew Taichi would be the right option is another thing. She probably knew that too though, since Taichi is the top student and all, but I'm not sure.

[ars89]

Awesome they were all wearing hakama. Way to go Desktomu and messing Chihaya up. Glad Taichi got her to relax. Good thing Desktomu came back to cheer on Chihaya. It'll be a tough final with them up against a team with 2 members that are A-class. Yay Kana won a match!

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I disagree. Tsutomu isn't passionate about Karuta itself. I think he sees it as a way to go beyond himself, to grow. And Kana's love is directed toward the aesthetics of old Japan, not really the game. Sure, they both want to win, but neither has anywhere near the drive or focus on Karuta that Chihaya has.

While their passion for karuta compared to Chihaya's is akin to a candle before a torch, there's still quite a bit there. No-one would wear themselves out playing the game without good reason. The others have different reasons than Chihaya, but other reasons can be equally legitimate.

[Hooves]

Taichi and Porky holding hands gave me the best laugh

[Byakou]

Tsukue-kun: omg y u no die
Greenoob02: hahaha
Chihaya93: yay! we all won.. well xcept u two
Tsukue-kun:
Kanakimono3:
Tsukue-kun: ok i wont lose this time
Orangekarate: heheheh
Tsukue-kun: wttfffff nooooooooooooooo
Kanakimono3: OMG I won!
Chihaya93: Omg wow congrats kana
Tsukue-kun: ....
STaichi: impressive kana!
Tsukue-kun: ....


askdfjasdklfjasdjkfasdfh32j4h23j4h23s89xchcjas
I HATE YOU
/ragequit

[Guardian Enzo]

Taichi just keeps scoring points in my book. Grouchy-sensei was spot-on by forcing the club to choose him as their leader.

Sensing a little chemistry between the chibi club members there at the end.

[Dop]

If you'd told me that one of my favourite shows of the year was going to revolve around a classical poetry based card game, I'd have been somewhat sceptical.

But this rapidly has become one of my favourite shows of the year.

What we saw in this episode was the karuta club evolving into a team. The decision to make Taichi the leader was very prescient, as he showed excellent leadership this week.

I see Chihaya and Taichi as being like fire and ice. She's the burning passionate one, single minded and up front. Meanwhile, he's the cool level headed one who actually thinks about things more, and it was he who showed how to motivate the team as a whole.

Other moments of the show, Nishida stuffing his face, and Kana pointing out to Tsutomu the feet of people who spent a lot of time kneeling on a tatami.