2008-09-16, 04:18 | Link #201 | ||||
I disagree with you all.
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2008-09-16, 04:40 | Link #202 |
Colonel General
Join Date: Sep 2008
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It seems we have a major philosophical difference here. On one side, we have, in my opinion, an attempt to rationalize the Vajira and the reason of their behavior. On the other hand, there is that hardened look that takes "here and now" into consideration, the look many Frontier citizens might adopt. Still, based upon previous experiences with Macross and overall similarity of the situation to, for instance, the aforementioned work by Handelman, I'd say Anh_Minh makes a compelling argument.
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2008-09-16, 07:35 | Link #203 | ||||
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2008-09-16, 08:58 | Link #204 |
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As far as I can tell, Anh_Minh is right here. If the Vajra can only think of humanity in the way they see themselves, there would be no reason for them take into account the differences between individual humans or fleets for that matter. We don't know what Grace/Macross Galaxy/117th Research Fleet did to them, so all of their actions up to that point may be either a response to what happened previously. Moreover, it's been shown that the Vajra have been unable to communicate with humans, so their taking in Ranka may be both an attempt to understand humanity as well as communicate with them.
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2008-09-16, 09:06 | Link #205 | |
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2008-09-16, 09:23 | Link #206 |
A blast from the past
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Location: Fortaleza-CE, Brazil
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The point you're missing, ipernorris, is that, to the Vajra, that's probably very true. "Humantradis" as a whole is trying to subjugate them - so, they fight back. At least, that's exactly what the "good guys" are doing, as well. Isn't it?
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2008-09-16, 09:35 | Link #207 |
I disagree with you all.
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Well, I take intent and knowledge/understanding into account before crying "evil!".
It's true that the Vajra attacked fleets that, on the whole, maybe wouldn't have done anything to them. (Actually, it is a maybe. The complicity between Leon and Grace, and Leon and Bilrer, makes at least possible, if not likely, that they'd have contrived an excuse to harvest Vajra guts anyway.) They certainly killed civilians, babies, and so on. But, as I've pointed out, they may have a limited understanding of humanity and only sought to protect themselves. And on the whole, they're no worse than the humans. Sure, you could argue that their hivemind makes the humans' (sometimes preemptive) self-defense merely murderous rather than genocidal, but what if they'd had individualities? Do you think the humans would have given a damn? If Alto's any indication, they didn't before figuring it out. So, in intent, they may be merely defending themselves against proven enemies. And they didn't locate the human's homeplanet, let alone attempt to exterminate all humans on it so they can live there. |
2008-09-16, 10:06 | Link #208 | ||||
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In Vajra's case it's very different because they have no individuality thus no different wills: the will which decided to exterminate Frontier is one and only one. Quote:
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2008-09-16, 10:15 | Link #209 | |||
I disagree with you all.
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I'll grant that taking the Vajra homeplanet is more of a result of, well, escalation of the conflict. But we can't know for sure who started the conflict in the first place. |
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2008-09-16, 10:22 | Link #210 | |
A blast from the past
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Blaming solely the Vajra for the escalation of the conflict seems a bit short-sighted, to me.
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2008-09-16, 12:06 | Link #211 |
Gamilas Falls
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Location: Republic of California
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This reminds me of a few Japanese war related anime of the 1970s. You know the ones that end with the destruction (or near-destruction) of the Earth's enemies and but the hero is lementing that they didn't need to have fought because their goals were the same and justified...if only they could have worked together instead, speeches.
Kind of shows the point that in many wars, both sides are in the wrong to some degree and both sides are in the right to some degree. It is a matter of prepective. As seen in this debate, prepectives can cloud facts and make wars worse than they already are. When it turns from simple self-defense into pro-active "let's kill them all, on their lands" it gets ugly. The Vajra may be more complex than we know and have reasons that we don't know yet. Grace and Leon may have more reasons than we know of. The rest of Frontier's population is basically in the crossfire. There has to be a reason for the war. What that reason is will usually solve the problem, or at least give cause to show if one side or the other is justified in its responce. However the creator of this series may take us in a different direction than we went 25 years ago. Instead of the power of song defeating the enemy by making them friends, it causes them to win (by defeating the humans)..or is used to destroy the enemy in total leaving nothing left to show for it. The planet is destroyed...Frontier gains nothing from this war but bodies and wreckage. Showing the folly of war doesn't sound like the show's premise, but it is possible as a backdrop for the love triangle that dies because of it. The only thing that would save Frontier at that point would be aid from another colony...finding a new world suddenly....folding back to Earth....or they actually fail. Or they find the lost first colony ship to bring things full circle.
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2008-09-16, 12:09 | Link #212 | |||||
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We have already a reason for the war: Grace said, answring mentally to Leon's question "why do we have to suffer so much because of Vajra?", that the Vajra are attacking because human's dream of colonizing planet around the galaxy is an obstacle. In other words: Vajra don't want anybody in their own region of space. |
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2008-09-16, 12:11 | Link #213 | |
A blast from the past
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Right. As opposed to your arguments, which are all based solely on fact, right? The fact that we've only been shown the Vajra's attack on the Research Fleet doesn't mean that was the only point of contact. And it doesn't change the very real possibility that they, as a species, are only responding to a previous attack. Just like you defend the populace of Frontier to continue doing, as well. Can't you see this? And who says you need justification for war? Most of the time, you don't even need a good enough motive...
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2008-09-16, 12:43 | Link #214 |
Gamilas Falls
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If the reason for the Vijra fighitng the humans is because the humans are invading their territory...and the humans know this (how?), then wouldn't going around that region be in order? Or at least attempting to go through that space in the quickest possible fashion rather than drag the fleet in and slowly ponder around looking for a place to settle? Perhaps at one time the Vajra were more open to tresspassers and settlers, but now they aren't. Probably because of abuse of their space and/or populations by the Research Fleet (or others if any other human fleets have been in this region before Frontier arrives).
In that light, what the Vajra are doing is border patrol and then attempting to repel an invader...about the same as a human nation would do with a massive military/colonial force wondering onto your continent/country. Imagine if the British arrived someplace right after the First World War with a huge convoy of their people supported by part of the Royal Navy arriving in your territorial waters and didn't communicate with you at all as to what they were doing. Most nations would challenge a force entering their territory. If the Royal Navy destroyed the challengers and then the fleet continues onwards into your harbors, then moves onto a huge train a trucks and cars with tanks and planes escorting them across your country...and they still haven't said a word...wouldn't you try to repel the invaders?
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2008-09-16, 13:42 | Link #215 | ||||||
I disagree with you all.
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Also, the Vajra may have speculated that the humans would be their enemies. And hey, guess what? They were right too. So maybe, in both case, there was a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy going on. But hey, that's war. Quote:
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2008-09-16, 13:51 | Link #216 | ||||||||
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If Frontier, like the Research Fleet probably did, messed up with Vajra then it would have been another story. People have said that Vajra may view the humantradis as an enemy because of the Research Fleet: it may be, but this isn't a good excuse for killing millions of people who didn't do anything to you. Quote:
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2008-09-16, 14:04 | Link #217 | |
A blast from the past
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Sorry, not buying your double standards on this issue. Both sides have their reasons, maybe one side is more justified than the other (but we don't really know that, yet) like most conflicts that were ever depicted in fiction (and in reality, as well).
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2008-09-16, 14:18 | Link #218 |
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I don't think it's clear at all that the Vajra attacked Frontier with the goal of annihilation. Don't forget that each red Vajra was equipped with an anti-capital ship beam weapon. This means that during each of the attacks, the Vajra could have attempted to destroy the main Frontier colony ship. If the Vajra were trying to destroy Frontier at the start, when they were unprepared and unshielded, they could easily have won.
However, for the first few episodes, the Vajra reserved their weapons exclusively for Frontier support warships. The attack in the first episode, for example, was clearly to establish contact with Ranka Lee. The Vajra battlecruiser too engaged only the Galaxy warships. It wasn't that the Vajra didn't know the location of Frontier, but rather that they didn't attack civilian targets. (Even though during this time Frontier was busy taking out Vajra hives.) It was only with the deployment of the Dimension Eater, that the Vajra actually began to fire on Island-1 - the attack came immediately afterwards, showing that the Vajra was in fact tolerating Frontier's presence until then. We have no telling how important Galia 4 was to them, or what the bomb would feel to fold sensitive creatures. (Think about how that looked to the Vajra: they let the humantradis settle on a planet with their own colony on it, left them alone for a while. Then a couple of fighters arrive from Frontier. They let them explore, let them even meet their queen. And then the humans attack within the chamber of the queen, kidnapping Ranka who had returned to them, a fold bomb destroys the planet, and their queen launches a retaliatory attack and ends up dead, because in a moment of weakness they listened to Ranka's song and thought it was a peace offer.) No matter what the Research Fleet did, the humans did shoot first in the series itself. I'm also not very convinced that the Vajra don't have individual minds - note the different behaviour from the other Vajra Ai-chan exhibits, and also the ability of Vajra to behave normally at the start of ep 22 even when Luca had them fold-jammed from the rest of the collective. Last edited by FhnuZoag; 2008-09-16 at 15:24. |
2008-09-16, 16:03 | Link #219 | |
NERV Personnel
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Also Grace stated at a point to Leon that the plan to get the Vajra to attack the Frontier went well, meaning that they did something before the start of the series to cause the Vajra to become hostile towards the 25th colonization fleet if not all the fleets. While it doesn't 100% prove who pissed who off first, it does show that the hostility of the Vajra to the Frontier fleet in particular is the result of human action(s). |
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2008-09-16, 16:19 | Link #220 | |
I disagree with you all.
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I'm not really intent on throwing the stone at anyone. The way I see it, most people involved may have acted simply out of ignorance and self-preservation instinct. Even the research fleet: maybe they mistook the Vajra for mere animals and didn't imagine the consequences of harming a few of them for experiments. Where I think Ipernorris is using double standards is when he demands that the Vajra be more considerate than the humans. That they make more of an effort to understand them and sort the good from the bad than the humans ever made for the Vajra. Sure, a posteriori, you can say that the humans were right to think the Vajra were all the same. But let's be honest, here. The humans didn't really care. Even before knowing about the hivemind, they acted as if all the Vajra were the same. And as for the Vajra - it may not even have occurred to them in the first place that the humans weren't. I can't really blame them for not making that breakthrough. Imagine a guy shoots in the air, not aiming at anything. Just to be festive. Three kilometers away, his bullet hits a random passer-by. Fatally. Now, compare with another guy who shoots in the air, not knowing where it'll fall either. Only in his case, it hits an armed robber before he can kill someone. Is the first guy a murderer? The second a hero? No, they're both idiots who endangered the people around them by playing with firearms. They both acted for the same reasons, only the outcome changed - because of chance, not anything they did. To me, the Vajra and humans are a bit the same. With the difference that dispelling their ignorance isn't as simple a matter as taking gun safety courses. Last edited by Anh_Minh; 2008-09-16 at 17:51. |
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