Little Busters - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by ThereminVox

See, but this just raises two more questions.

For one, wouldn't that mean that when Haruka's acting out, Kanata is the only one that the family can punish for it? Why allow the Unfavorite to have so much freedom? Leading into the question that really bothers me:

The family doesn't want to deal with her that much, but unfortunately, the anime also skipped a major chunk. If it isn't explained next week, I will give the headlines of the "other reasons".

Why would the family try to hurt her with the posters? If they were trying to punish her, couldn't they just stop paying for her schooling and residence, forcing her either back under their roof where she can't embarrass them, or else send her somewhere far away? I assume they're still her legal guardians, even if she's physically out of their reach now that she lives in residence, and isn't being groomed as the heiress.

The family has legal obligations to take care of Haruka, which includes education. Even if we assume they have political influence, that wouldn't work at all. Also, public image would be tarnished if they dump a child in such fashion.
Also, another reason is tied with the first question, but alas ignored by the anime adaptation.

[ThereminVox]

Originally Posted by DmonHiro

They couldn't do that because she is still tied to the family. Thus, having her drop out of school would be another black mark on their oh so precious prestige.

But isn't the whole point of labeling her Shou's daughter to distance her from the Futaki offshoot of the family? And even if they aren't trying to claim she's not one of them, would transferring her away be any more embarrassing than her ongoing delinquency?

I probably just don't have enough of the story yet...

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Klashikari

The family doesn't want to deal with her that much, but unfortunately, the anime also skipped a major chunk. If it isn't explained next week, I will give the headlines of the "other reasons".

Okay, so there is more. I'll leave it at that for now, then.

[Klashikari]

The problem is that if they send her far away, it would be more troublesome for them to actually track every little incidents she might create.
Even if they try to distance her from their name, any trouble caused by her might attract the attention (who knows if Haruka flees from her host, perform some vandalism etc, and that would involve the police, leading to an investigation).

They don't want her to tarnish their name, and the best way for that is to keep an eye on her, which is more practical if they are around. This is also why spies and Kanata herself also serve as proxy for them when Haruka is messing things up.

[Triple_R]

I think the idea behind the posters was to turn Haruka into a virtual non-entity through social ostracization (i.e. all of her fellow students now shunning her due to Haruka being the known daughter of a deadbeat criminal). The hope was probably that it would turn Haruka into a shamed and reclusive Mio-esque person (the Mio prior to her meeting Riki). That means a less problematic Haruka which makes life easier for the rest of the family.

Absolutely cold and brutal, but it makes some sense to me.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by ThereminVox

Actually, having not played the game, I would never have gotten that out of that scene if it weren't for one (possibly irrelevant) observation: Several episodes ago, Haruka took a bath with Karugaya without any particular care for exposing family secrets. It's only when I put that together with the OP, the slap, AND Kud's expression that it occurred to me that Kanata is probably the girl in the OP. If not for that, I'd be arguing along with Triple R that you're reading too much into it.

That's a very nice observation. I hadn't thought about that. Haruka would have definitely been reluctant to show her naked body to Anego if it had been covered in bruises. And Anego wouldn't have kept quiet if she had seen that. I'm now convinced the girl in the OP is Kanata.

From I'm gathering from this discussion, it appears to me that the one in need of saving the most right now might be Kanata, and not Haruka. Haruka has already managed to escape from the family's clutches (though not completely) whereas Kanata is still suffering abuse. I hope Riki will find a way to save them both. Neither of them deserve this mistreatment. Kud will probably play a key role, since she is the only one at the moment who is aware of Kanata's situation. If Haruka learned the truth, the way she views her sister would immediately change.

[Ceral]

I'm liking Haruka's adaptation a lot. IMO J.C. has always excelled at dramas with "screaming heads", where the drama label is accredited to the characters arguing and yelling at each other. As opposed to the usual key formula of MC getting a heroine over a past issue or tragedy without the bickering and through more subtle and unexpected means. Usually involving lots of consideration and unique wisdom on the MC's part.

The latter of which I usually find very artistic and beautiful, when Kyoani does it. When J.C. does it, there seems to be something missing. But in Haruka's route, the plot moves along real nicely because there's a lot more outspoken dialogue to move things along and make the episode extra angsty. J.C, you good at being angsty.

[Zankoku12]

if I understand it right,fraternal twin isn't identical twin,they're just half sibling born at the same time. So the two should just only look like each other like normal sister,but in this case they look so much like each other,Kanata only need to change her hair style to look exactly like Haruka.
Even the bust size is only 1cm different.

As for why Kanata is surprised when Riki mentioned the cake.I assumed it's Kanata just about to ask "What cake from last time?" but then she saw Haruka b4 finished her question.
So maybe she was surprised because of Haruka's sudden appearance rather than the cake part.

[Kudryavka]

Originally Posted by Zankoku12

if I understand it right,fraternal twin isn't identical twin,they're just half sibling born at the same time. So the two should just only look like each other like normal sister,but in this case they look so much like each other,Kanata only need to change her hair style to look exactly like Haruka.
Even the bust size is only 1cm different.

As for why Kanata is surprised when Riki mentioned the cake.I assumed it's Kanata just about to ask "What cake from last time?" but then she saw Haruka b4 finished her question.
So maybe she was surprised because of Haruka's sudden appearance rather than the cake part.

Fratenal twins just mean that the twins were born from two different eggs fertilized at the same time. The vast majority of fraternal twins are not half siblings, they are from the same parents. Identical twins come from one fertilized egg that splits during development into two.

And yes I agree, I'm quite surprised (disappointed?) that Kanata and Haruka look so alike despite having different dads. Maybe the anime will show the other father to look a lot like Shou Saigusa, so that would explain it somewhat.

I was thinking Kanata's surprise came from seeing Haruka right behind Riki as well. That's also why she bent down so quickly and revealed herself so quickly, since the jig would be up anyway as soon as Haruka yelled out or Riki turned around.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kudryavka

Fratenal twins just mean that the twins were born from two different eggs fertilized at the same time. The vast majority of fraternal twins are not half siblings, they are from the same parents. Identical twins come from one fertilized egg that splits during development into two.

And yes I agree, I'm quite surprised (disappointed?) that Kanata and Haruka look so alike despite having different dads.

... So there's 0% possibility that <Plot Twist!> Kanata and Haruka actually came from the same father! </Plot Twist> ?

The fact they look so much alike would lead nicely into such a plot twist, imo.

But really, Kanata successfully mimicking Haruka's appearance is less impressive to me than Kanata so completely capturing Haruka's mannerisms and voice, as the two have very different mannerisms and voices.

[Kudryavka]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

... So there's 0% possibility that <Plot Twist!> Kanata and Haruka actually came from the same father! </Plot Twist> ?

The fact they look so much alike would lead nicely into such a plot twist, imo.

But really, Kanata successfully mimicking Haruka's appearance is less impressive to me than Kanata so completely capturing Haruka's mannerisms and voice, as the two have very different mannerisms and voices.

There's a great chance that they come from the same father. Like I think I said earlier in this thread, the "different fathers" thing may be a lie that the family fed the twins to rule out the possibility of them being both Shou Saigusa's kids.

So this, or what it has been said and they are from different dads. I gotta keep watching the anime so I can find out!

[justsomeguy]

Considering how much they look alike, I would have thought that they both actually having the same father would be where the story leads, unless the two fathers themselves were identical twins. As for Shou himself, he probably has a very strong and possibly even noble reason for arson and attempted murder, because it would make no sense for a family that cares so much about their honor not to vet husband candidates.

[Triple_R]

Gotcha, Kudryavka.

One good thing for Haruka - As much as she was clearly freaked out by Kanata's acting performance here, there's an old saying that should comfort her: Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

For Kanata to pull off "Haruka" so well, Kanata is clearly paying very close attention to her sister. You don't play-act as someone unless you find it amusing to do so. At some level, Kanata must like Haruka, or she couldn't have pulled off what she did here.

[kitten320]

True, she clearly knows her sister really well. Probably better than Haruka knows Kanata.

[Enternal]

Originally Posted by kitten320

True, she clearly knows her sister really well. Probably better than Haruka knows Kanata.

This is one thing I definitely think and agree about. It also makes sense with the thing when Kanata implies "the grass is greener on the other side" regarding Haruka.

Haruka had always thought that Kanata as the heir has it all good even though in reality it's not. As a result, Haruka have probably never really thought about how Kanata really feels and think that Kanata does not care about her at all. It seems that in truth, Kanata really does care for Haruka and perhaps her actions from the beginning till now is only an act to protect Haruka. It's some what clear when Kanata tells that old lady that "this is too much" only to be viciously slapped after wards. Kanata's bruised back also speaks a lot.

It's already clear that Kanata is not an evil person. She's willing to help people in need like in Kud's case. However regarding Haruka, it's much more complex so she might actually trying to help Haruka but in a different way. Unfortunately Haruka does not seem to know and her pranks are ways for her to get back at the seemingly evil Kanata. Basically Kanata seems to be plaing the bad guy.

[Triple_R]

To try to capture why I loved the cliffhanger of this episode so much, I decided to mess around with the final minute of the episode with different added audio. I eventually went with what's in the spoiler space below. It's pretty amateurish, but I thought somebody here might be amused by it, at least. Please forgive the visual quality as it was done in Windows Movie Maker.

Spoiler for YouTube vid:

9,001 nerd points for anybody that can place the OST I used here.

[Kudryavka]

I like how Riki visualizes a desert when he eats the bread.

Haruka yo cakes are DOO DRY!

[novalysis]

Originally Posted by kitten320

True, she clearly knows her sister really well. Probably better than Haruka knows Kanata.

There's actually a beautiful symmetry here that I think led the producers to put the Haruka route after the Mio Route. While in the Mio Route, the fantasy of a twin that is your idealized version, and "superior" to you in many ways was just that, an imaginary construct, for Haruka, having a twin superior to her in almost every measure is a very real concept.

Even without an abusive background, you might start feeling like you are a spare. Especially if your twin was not only better than you in most aspects, she could also imitate you so well that your circle of friends can't tell right away. Even if both of them were raised in a loving, and less screwed up family background, to Haruka, Kanata's whole performance seems to be a message that Haruka is essentially surplus.

Your twin can imitate your voice, your personality, your looks, till your circle of friends who affirmed your value could not catch on. Not only that, apparently, there's nothing you can do that she can't do better.

Like Mio and Midori- but while Midori is an idealization, Kanata is very, very real. I think the juxtaposition of Imaginary Twin, followed by Real Twins is a very deliberate choice on the part of the animators. In-fact, I'd argue that Kanata, pardon me for using that word, is a deconstruction of the concept of Midori. A good writer would probably have drawn that link even further by wondering what Mio would make of all of this, if Mio made such a connection.

Add all the other circumstances on-top of it, and if Haruka shows signs of entertaining suicidal sentiments, I would most definitely not be surprised. Being told, then being shown that you are surplus makes such an outcome extremely likely.

Also, I've just noticed the prevalent theme of Siblinghood here in the first three routes, at least.

Komari - Dead Brother.
Mio - Imaginary Twin Sister who is your idealized personality.
Haruka - A Real Twin Sister that Out Specs you in everything.

Kud - ?
Kurugaya - ?

Rin - Kyousuke and Rin's relationship, something not really shown much of so far.

[Marcus H.]

Okay, I'll skip the long speculahs so that mine doesn't end up "tainted".

Kanata continues to be a bitch, and Haruka continues to receive Kanata's hate.

However, the doubts with Haruka and Kanata's identity start to surface.
I think my speculah has been officially "tainted" already. D:

We have the "desert and oasis" chiffon cake. Haruka told Riki that she is a master of egg cuisine, and that involves chiffon cakes, but hers is as dry as Sahara sand. However, Kanata's is plump and moist.

Then, we have Kud's reaction with seeing Kanata in the nude after taking a shower.

The "chiffon cake" issue is probably the most striking scene that gives this story arc some depth. This makes it possible that Kanata is actually Haruka and vice versa.

However, when did the switch happen? And did the two know about this switch?

My speculation:
There were two fathers to the Saigusa bloodline. However, we only knew that two girls came out of the Saigusa mother's womb. It is not revealed if both of them were from a single father and are, in fact, true twins.

Then we head to the switch. Sometime in the past, Haruka and Kanata might have switched roles, and their similar appearance makes the switch almost flawless. However, one of them eventually regretted making the switch, and is now focusing her hate over the other. (Also, take note that the Futaki family now owns the Saigusa family.) Now, the question is: which of them is Haruka and which of them is Kanata?

Well crap, my head is really spinning around from all of this.

[Snuffle]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Spoiler for YouTube vid:

9,001 nerd points for anybody that can place the OST I used here.

Lol that's funny, kinda a shame that LB is not that type of show. Makes the scene feel like there's a murder coming up. Oh wait, the father is a criminal so the daughter must eventually become a criminal. Time for some slashing.
I have no clue where the music is from though.

Originally Posted by novalysis

Komari - Dead Brother.
Mio - Imaginary Twin Sister who is your idealized personality.
Haruka - A Real Twin Sister that Out Specs you in everything.

Kud - ?
Kurugaya - ?

Rin - Kyousuke and Rin's relationship, something not really shown much of so far.

Kud has the dogs.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Snuffle

Lol that's funny, kinda a shame that LB is not that type of show. Makes the scene feel like there's a murder coming up. Oh wait, the father is a criminal so the daughter must eventually become a criminal. Time for some slashing.

Kanata as a slasher movie villain is a funny thought. I'm glad you liked what I did with the scene's music here.

I have no clue where the music is from though.

Star Trek: TNG OST - "Borg Engaged".

Seems fitting since Kanata totally assimilated Haruka's appearance, mannerisms, and voice here. Also since this scene makes me think that Kanata wants to assimilate Riki in a very different way...

"Resistance is futile, Riki-kun..."