during sannin fight, jiraiya's strength

[yamato_D]

i know that tsunade poisoned jiraiya the night before the sannin fight, and that the aftereffects of the poison were still affecting him when the battle began. what i wanna know is would jiraiya have done significantly better during his one on one fight versus orochimaru? he was pretty much getting his ass kicked by an armless orochimaru. to me, having no arms is much harder to fight than having a weakened body. does it just mean that jiraiya is much weaker than orochimaru? this also comes to question itachi's comment to kisame about the likelyhood of dying facing jiraiya. yet orochimaru claims that itachi is stronger than even he himself. so what's up with jiraiya's strength?

[freetgy]

Jiraiya is the strongest of the three

[Rachy]

Jiraiya is the strongest of the three

Correct ^^.

Spoiler:

in the manga when orochimaru is leaving the village, Orochimaru seems to run away from Jiraiya who's just trying to talk sense into him.

[FireDetei]

Jiraiya was the "naruto" of the group, seen as just a perv and a fool.

But im sure its been said somewhere in the anime that he surpassed Oro, or became equal in his own right.

I think he even said "its no fun to teach a genius", which could be implying he wasnt and oro was.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Well Jiraiya said: "Even a guy like me can get tired" because of the poison of Tsunade a guy like him...a Sannin..their normal abilities must be pretty awesome.

Also Jiraiya was totally messed up..which caused him more difficulty then Orochimaru...that's for sure. His jutsu's were weak because of his messed up chakra system he couldnt mold chakra properly.

While Orochimaru had his own speed, used weird snake techniques but only couldnt use his arms.

If all 3 were to fight at full strenght then the battle would've been different. I'd still say Orochimaru would lose but...the damage would be enormous.

Also it may be true that Jiraiya really was the strongest amoung them..
Orochimaru: "In the past, you were the hero of the village".....
"From what I see, for someone as strong as you....That kid...He is worthless (Naruto)"

Though probably in a matchup 1 on 1 Orochimaru still could be the winner..

[flexx]

nice thread.

But I also came to the conclusion, that jiraya must be the strongest out of the sannins. Jirayas entire system was mixed up in the fight and orochimaru only couldn't use his arms. His strength and his speed were the same.

Additional, Orochimaru states, that he left akatsuki because itachi has become stronger than him and so he can't get his sharingan.
When Naruto was with jiraya, itachi AND kisame didn't want to capture naruto because they were afraid, that jiraya will beat both of them...

So simply said:
edit: orochimaru < itachi < jiraya

[Sinaura]

Originally Posted by flexx

nice thread.

But I also came to the conclusion, that jiraya must be the strongest out of the sannins. Jirayas entire system was mixed up in the fight and orochimaru only couldn't use his arms. His strength and his speed were the same.

Additional, Orochimaru states, that he left akatsuki because itachi has become stronger than him and so he can't get his sharingan.
When Naruto was with jiraya, itachi AND kisame didn't want to capture naruto because they were afraid, that jiraya will beat both of them...

So simply said:
orochimaru > itachi > jiraya

Well from your logic it should be jirayi>itachi>orochimaru. I disagree, Itachi and Kisame were going on reputation alone when they said that about Jirayi, however it was clear that after Itachi and Kisame escaped Itachi would've been able to go head to head with Jirayi easily had he not wasted his chakra messing around with the other sharigan users. In terms of Orochimaru, it was basically the same as Jirayi, his inability to use his arms for hand seals were just as bad as Jirayi's inability to mold chakra, none of them were able to use chakra properly. In addition, if we go by their summons, it would be Snake>Frog, Frog>Slug, Slug>Snake, so if we used that the Sannins would go Orochimaru>Jirayi, Tsunada>Orochimaru, Jirayi>Tsunada. That's one of the only things that we can really use to draw a conclusion strength wise. As for the Sannin fight, it would've been much greater and more destructive had they all been at full strength.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

I think the Sannins are being underestimated here Sinaura..dont forget these Sannin (50+) have fought for a long while and have more then 40 years battle experience.

The have fought in the Ninja Wars and clearly only a few survived that..or arent even known. (yet)

There is always an if and if. Itachi was going on reputation alone...that is pretty nonsense. Itachi is a genius afterall..and cautious. If he were to battle Jiraiya at that point...both of them would've been killed.

Besides..please read the next line carefully..litterally from the story.

Kisame: "Why must we retreat?
Kisame: "You could've..."
Itachi: "There is no need to hurry with Naruto at his current level"
Itachi: "Also I must rest myself somewhere for a while"
Itachi: "I had to use Tsukyomi, and was even forced to use Ameterasu"
[Sharingan off]

Judging from this i'd say:

Kisame ment "You could've taken Naruto with us" where Itachi replied that he isnt strong enough to pose a problem right now.

Itachi had to use Tsukyomi on his little brother for personal reasons and Ameterasu to survive. At that point if the were to battle Jiraiya they'd definetly die.

By the way Jiraiya didnt look suprised after Itachi used Tsuyomi on Sasuke however...Ameterasu was something he clearly didnt expect. Itachi would definetly be not the first skilled Uchiha to face Jiraiya.

Afterall in his time (Sannin) great warriors grew/emerged and perished..i think the Ninja Wars are also being underestimated..and its not that the Sannin are being feared and praised for nothing...with Orochimaru's power that continues to grow and the other Sannin still pretty much evenly i'd say they still might grow in power.

[ri0]

To add: Itachi used Tsukyomi twice. First on Kakashi, second on Sasuke. That means 3 times Mange on one day. He must have been pretty exhausted.

[Ragnarokender]

You're assuming having no arms is more of a disadvantage than being severely weakened...which may or may not be true. I dont think we can know for sure to make the conclusion that Jiraya is weaker for that reason.

Just a question on my part, in the anime, did Jiraya say that the poison weakened him to 1/3 of his max strength or am i just remembering things that didnt happen?

[yamato_D]

wow, i'm kinda surprised to see people reply. in a positive way though.
right, about the anime flashback of jiraiya trying to stop orochimaru from leaving the village. it looked very much like jiraiya was tossed around a bit by oro. and then orochimaru lunged at him, but then the flashback ends. I'm assuming that either orochimaru was somehow knocked away at the last second by jiraiya, or orochimaru felt no need to kill jiraiya and left him there.

and yeah in the anime jiraiya mentions to shizune that he's regained about 30% of his chakura (this was still at the inn).

[Sinaura]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

I think the Sannins are being underestimated here Sinaura..dont forget these Sannin (50+) have fought for a long while and have more then 40 years battle experience.

The have fought in the Ninja Wars and clearly only a few survived that..or arent even known. (yet)

There is always an if and if. Itachi was going on reputation alone...that is pretty nonsense. Itachi is a genius afterall..and cautious. If he were to battle Jiraiya at that point...both of them would've been killed.

Besides..please read the next line carefully..litterally from the story.

Kisame: "Why must we retreat?
Kisame: "You could've..."
Itachi: "There is no need to hurry with Naruto at his current level"
Itachi: "Also I must rest myself somewhere for a while"
Itachi: "I had to use Tsukyomi, and was even forced to use Ameterasu"
[Sharingan off]

Judging from this i'd say:

Kisame ment "You could've taken Naruto with us" where Itachi replied that he isnt strong enough to pose a problem right now.

Itachi had to use Tsukyomi on his little brother for personal reasons and Ameterasu to survive. At that point if the were to battle Jiraiya they'd definetly die.

By the way Jiraiya didnt look suprised after Itachi used Tsuyomi on Sasuke however...Ameterasu was something he clearly didnt expect. Itachi would definetly be not the first skilled Uchiha to face Jiraiya.

Afterall in his time (Sannin) great warriors grew/emerged and perished..i think the Ninja Wars are also being underestimated..and its not that the Sannin are being feared and praised for nothing...with Orochimaru's power that continues to grow and the other Sannin still pretty much evenly i'd say they still might grow in power.

Nope the reason why Itachi and Kisame were afriad was because the Sannins' reputations they formed during the Ninja Wars, which is why they were so worried about Jirayi. It isn't nonsense at all that Itachi was gonig on reputation, because as far as we know Itachi has never seen Jirayi in action before, so that reputation was in fact all that those two could go on. The Sannin aren't being underestimated, it's the ninjas who didn't participate in the Ninja wars or who don't have such reputations as the Sannins have that are being underestimated. Like you said, the Sannin have 40+ years in which they built their legacies, Itachi in that span could easily match or even surpass the reputations of the Sannin, something Yondaime could do as well. Itachi is a genius but he doesn't have foresight, he couldn't possibly know how strong Jirayi was until he faced him. In addition, if Kisame meant that they could've taken Naruto with them, that meant that they had to go through Jirayi first to get Naruto, and by saying that it means that they could've beaten him, using your analysis.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by yamato_D

i know that tsunade poisoned jiraiya the night before the sannin fight, and that the aftereffects of the poison were still affecting him when the battle began. what i wanna know is would jiraiya have done significantly better during his one on one fight versus orochimaru? he was pretty much getting his ass kicked by an armless orochimaru. to me, having no arms is much harder to fight than having a weakened body. does it just mean that jiraiya is much weaker than orochimaru? this also comes to question itachi's comment to kisame about the likelyhood of dying facing jiraiya. yet orochimaru claims that itachi is stronger than even he himself. so what's up with jiraiya's strength?

After Kabuto's crippling of Tsunade every Sannin had a weakness in that battle.

None of them were fighting at full potential.

Jiraiya's chakra was so severly messed up that he could not even summon Gamabunta nor move properly so he was in just as bad or worse shape as Orochimaru.

Like others have said had they fought at full potential it would have been a different story.

I think at this stage that Orochimaru is stronger than both Tsunade and Jiraiya.

His ability to occupy a youthful body means he has more stamina than his middle aged counter parts and his jutsu are quite innovative.

The comments Itachi made about he and Kisame putting their lives at risk by taking on an opponent like Jiraiya were the words of a ninja who is very cautious and does only what he deems to be necessary.

If their mission had been to kill Jiraiya he may have taken a different attitude.

It's quite logical for the pecking order to be Itachi > Orochimaru > Jiraiya and Itachi still being cautious of an opponent with such a reputable reputation as one of the legendary Sannin.

Even if he is stronger than both Orochimaru and Jiraiya they are dangerous opponents to face, opponents that you don't want to risk getting an up on you because the consequence is death even if your overall ability is slightly above theirs.

[Rachy]

How do people come to the conclusion of Itachi > Orochimaru > Jiraiya??

As things stated and shown in the manga go, it's Jiraiya>Itachi>Orochimaru.

The sannin battle is nothing to go by since none were at full strength nor was it a all out brawl.

When Orochimaru decided to leave him and Jiraiya had full strength, and Orochimaru ran away from him.

When Itachi made those statements to Jiraiya he wasn't saying them because he was weakened or made no notion to assume this.

And since Orochimaru already fears Itachi and Itachi fears Jiraiya, i dont see how you people can think it any other way honestly.

[Zek]

Originally Posted by uchiha rave

When Orochimaru decided to leave him and Jiraiya had full strength, and Orochimaru ran away from him.

I think you got a little confused somewhere. After their brief exchange in the forest, Orochimaru charges Jiraiya head-on and presumably defeats him. The Sannin battle was pretty much inconclusive, there's no way to tell which of them was inhibited more by their handicaps. I think from what we've seen it makes more sense to say that Orochimaru is stronger, or at least that they're on the same level.

[Rachy]

I think you got a little confused somewhere. After their brief exchange in the forest, Orochimaru charges Jiraiya head-on and presumably defeats him. The Sannin battle was pretty much inconclusive, there's no way to tell which of them was inhibited more by their handicaps. I think from what we've seen it makes more sense to say that Orochimaru is stronger, or at least that they're on the same level.

Actually he seems to be backing up and then running, but it doesn't mean he's charging at him, secondly all Jiraiya is doing is trying to talk to Orochimaru not defeat him in a battle which could be fatal, when hes explaining to Naruto about him and Orochimaru he only mentions that he tried to talk Orochimaru out of it.

And the sannin battle is inconclusive yes, but they never finished fighting nor could either go all-out in serious-ness so that's nothing to use as a example.

[Sinaura]

Originally Posted by uchiha rave

Actually he seems to be backing up and then running, but it doesn't mean he's charging at him, secondly all Jiraiya is doing is trying to talk to Orochimaru not defeat him in a battle which could be fatal, when hes explaining to Naruto about him and Orochimaru he only mentions that he tried to talk Orochimaru out of it.

And the sannin battle is inconclusive yes, but they never finished fighting nor could either go all-out in serious-ness so that's nothing to use as a example.

From the anime it seems that indeed Orochimaru charges towards Jirayi in that odd way of running ninja use. The Sannin battle is what this thread is about, whether or not Jirayi would've defeated Oroch had he been at full strength. People are disregarding Orochimaru's hadicap as well as Tsunada's. The fact of the matter remains that each Sannin lost the ability to use their most valuable strengths in that fight; Orochimaru's jutus, Jirayi's summoning ability to some extent, and Tsunada's super strength. It is clearly obvious that in the fight, without their own unique strengths, Orochimaru bested Jirayi, but Tsunada bested Oroch, it's the whole paper/rock/scissor scenario.

[Rachy]

From the anime it seems that indeed Orochimaru charges towards Jirayi in that odd way of running ninja use. The Sannin battle is what this thread is about, whether or not Jirayi would've defeated Oroch had he been at full strength. People are disregarding Orochimaru's hadicap as well as Tsunada's. The fact of the matter remains that each Sannin lost the ability to use their most valuable strengths in that fight; Orochimaru's jutus, Jirayi's summoning ability to some extent, and Tsunada's super strength. It is clearly obvious that in the fight, without their own unique strengths, Orochimaru bested Jirayi, but Tsunada bested Oroch, it's the whole paper/rock/scissor scenario.

No the paper/rock/scissor thing has to do with their summons only.

Orochimaru did seem to best them in the sannin battle ... but Jiraiya is still stronger.

[Sinaura]

Originally Posted by uchiha rave

No the paper/rock/scissor thing has to do with their summons only.

Orochimaru did seem to best them in the sannin battle ... but Jiraiya is still stronger.

True but the summons are symbolic to the sannin afterall, and since we know for a fact that the summons act as paper/rock/scissors, it is the best way to compare the sannin to each other using that rather than the he said/she said stuff involving Kisame/Itachi in regards to Jirayi and Oroch in regards to Itachi.

[Rachy]

True but the summons are symbolic to the sannin afterall, and since we know for a fact that the summons act as paper/rock/scissors, it is the best way to compare the sannin to each other using that rather than the he said/she said stuff involving Kisame/Itachi in regards to Jirayi and Oroch in regards to Itachi.

It's not, since Jiraiya is stronger the sannin fight is no way to judge them, since they were all weak at the time, but if you use statements/facts from the Manga it seems obvious Jiraiya is the stronger one that's the point.

Plus Even if Orochimaru was charging at Jiraiya in the next panel all Jiraiya say's is he kept asking for Orochimaru to change his mind, Since he would not risk killing the 3rd's beloved pupil .