[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 8 Twilight of the golden witch

[witchfan]

You're way off about the red truth. What Beato was saying is basically "consider it the language of axioms". Whatever said in red is an axiom. It's impossible to prove a theorem without a set of axioms. They're something we accept without proof, so we can continue onwards with our reasoning. So yes, in essence, you can deny the red truth, but then you wouldn't have anything to stand on when trying to figure out the mystery... or so one would think.

[MeoTwister5]

The final moments before the murder game begins:

Spoiler for Summaries:

MetaWorld
- Bern says this is the end of this story. It is regarded as straightforward and to the point. Ber explains that the purple text is almost equivalent to the red in detailing a true statement, with the exception that the criminal can use the red to lie.
- Bern explains the rules that govern her games (The Rule Set).

The Rule Set
- The criminal is the murderer.
- The criminal may tell lies.
- The criminal may have been lying before murdering.
- Those who are not criminals can only tell the truth.
- One who is not the criminal is not cooperating with the criminal.
- The criminal commits murders by their own hands.
- The criminal cannot die.
- The criminal is one of the characters.
- The Purple and Red text are identical in value. However, the criminal may lie with the purple text.

- Battler, Beato and Lambda analyze the rules. They wonder about the possibility of an accomplice if the rules deny it. They realize the rules also disallow traps, murderer's suicide and an unknown person X.
- Bern clarifies that there are 17 people by removing Kinzo. Beato finds the capacity of the criminal to lie with purple troublesome.
- In red Bern says that (I have a bit of a problem with this line) the story direction (ト書き) is not part of the dialogue, and is therefore not a lie. (I'm not sure what her point is with his, I presume she's saying that all actions that are not simply said by the characters that occur are real and treated as such.)
- Lambda in red guarantees that the available information guarantees identifying the criminal. Battler agrees to the red text stated.
- The narrator recommends getting a pen and paper for a logic map. The narrator issues a challenge to us, the readers, to attempt this final puzzle.

Spoiler for Red Text:

- Bern: (I have a bit of a problem with this line) the story direction (ト書き) is not part of the dialogue, and is therefore not a lie. (I'm not sure what her point is with his, I presume she's saying that all actions that are not simply said by the characters that occur are real and treated as such.)
- Lambda: the available information guarantees the possibility of identifying the criminal.

The murder game begins after this. At this point you are allowed to make the choices yourself by reviewing data and all that. I will post screenshots later.

[TheForsaken]

Originally Posted by Circular Logic

Doesn't that undermine the very existence of the red truth?

After all, ryukishi said several times that red truth only is true if you believe in its existence. There's no way to prove that the red is actually true. It's one of those devil's proof thingamabobs.

You're right. But, well, it's kinda hard to explain.

The Red Truth is what everyone recognizes as the absolute truth.
But you can choose not to believe that absolute truth, i.e. what everyone believe.
Even if the whole world believe in something, you're free to believe otherwise.

[Circular Logic]

Originally Posted by witchfan

You're way off about the red truth. What Beato was saying is basically "consider it the language of axioms". Whatever said in red is an axiom. It's impossible to prove a theorem without a set of axioms. They're something we accept without proof, so we can continue onwards with our reasoning. So yes, in essence, you can deny the red truth, but then you wouldn't have anything to stand on when trying to figure out the mystery... or so one would think.

You can reason using empirical evidence. That is, everything that happens in the 'real' world, and things that don't happen on the game board in the meta world.

[witchfan]

Would help if we know what the real world was, though.

@Meo- wasn't she talking about the narration?

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by TheForsaken

You're right. But, well, it's kinda hard to explain.

Considering how the perception of "truth" is itself subjective most of the case, it is no wonder you can't have a solid way to define it.

However, an analogy is possible:
Let's compare truth with faith (not necessarily religion), you can immediately have an idea of the nature of truth.
It is all about conviction after all: you can't argue with anything you got, it doesn't mean everyone will agree, no matter the evidences you show (concepts, religions difference etc).

Heck, even many scientific evidences that are "absolute truth" are still looked down or sneered by people who have their own interpretation.
How about Featherine's example? The situation between geocentrism and heliocentrism.

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by witchfan

Would help if we know what the real world was, though.

@Meo- wasn't she talking about the narration?

I had a bit of trouble with what she meant by story direction (actually the dictionary says it means stage direction, but story seems more appropriate). So yes, my understanding is that all the events presented due to the story's direction are true according to the red.

I have a question for the murder game: I completed all the quiz events and got all the medals. How many "hints" are listed in the hints section of the murder game and does reading them affect the game?

[witchfan]

Faith is not a good way to describe it. There is a thin line between axioms and faith, but it is crucial nonetheless: faith is what we believe unconditionally, while axioms are what we assume to be true, so we would be able to reason. If you assume red truth is like 'faith', then if Beato were to say something like "Witches did it" you would accept it. If you assume the red truths are axioms, then after seeing that, you would no longer accept them as such.

[Klashikari]

I said "compare". They are fundamentally different as you say, I never stated otherwise... (especially what I mention was the perception of truth in general sense)

[witchfan]

Right, they are fundamentally different, which is why I don't think 'faith' is a good way to describe it. It's an inaccurate analogy. Faith is a belief; axioms are a tool. I wasn't saying you don't understand this.

[Realus]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

I have a question for the murder game: I completed all the quiz events and got all the medals. How many "hints" are listed in the hints section of the murder game and does reading them affect the game?

21 Hints
Whenever you guess the culprit wrong, a hint is used. (Or you can just go straight for hints without guessing)

When all hints are revealed, there's pretty much no way you can mess up selecting the culprit, but even if you still choose wrong, it's not game over or anything. Just pick another.

I'm not sure if it affects anything else in the game, but I liked reading them because of the interaction between Battler and Beato. I bet this is how they were in their youth reading together.

I did however keep a save before the hints, and used that to solve Bern's game. Just to make it seem like Battler is good at mystery novels. (And by this, I mean in my POV, nothing as far as I could tell was changed)
I sadly couldn't solve it in the first shot. But once a certain hint came up, I figured it out right away.

Spoiler for Hint:

More than one culprit. Of course all previous hints were also very helpful. (Especially because they eliminated 9/17 people.)

---

I overall enjoyed the episode (and in turn, the series).
I can't wait for the translations on the ending parts which aren't hooked into AGTH.

Favorite scene of the game for me would probably have to be Knox and Dine's Mystery Defense.

Because of all the fight scenes... that reminds me...
*Cough*Krauss/Rosa/George/Jessica/Maria/Gaap/Erika/Dlanor/Will/Bernkastel/Lambdadelta for Ougon please*cough*

[yuugi99]

To say that I did not enjoy ep8 would be a lie. However I got a feeling that Ryukishi has betrayed me and most readers. If it would release as a single game, the damage would be at least minimal. But 4 years of solving mysteries that were never answer or was never a mystery to begin with was just so........ betrayed.

I wonder how is the Japanese netizens reacting now?

[MeoTwister5]

He already said that he doesn't intend to give an answer, that the mystery has no one truth, and that the "mystery" is not the center months and months ago. Did people not get the memo or something?

People have been told that this isn't the ship they initially thought it was and that they could have jumped off if they wanted by the writer himself. He didn't betray anyone. Betrayal means he lied. He didn't lie because he already admitted that this isn't what a lot of people think or want it to be. People had a choice to go on or get off.

Complaining about something you should have already realized because the writer himself said so is pointless. You were told what this was going to be but you stuck with it anyway. You knew what this was going to be. Complaining about it now is pointless. This has been set in stone since the day he revealed his intentions. Get over it people. If you want to speculate and voice your opinions about the series, do it in the other thread. This isn't the place for it.

[Circular Logic]

Originally Posted by yuugi99

To say that I did not enjoy ep8 would be a lie. However I got a feeling that Ryukishi has betrayed me and most readers. If it would release as a single game, the damage would be at least minimal. But 4 years of solving mysteries that were never answer or was never a mystery to begin with was just so........ betrayed.

I wonder how is the Japanese netizens reacting now?

From what I can tell from 2ch, the reaction has been really rather positive.

[Rias]

Originally Posted by Circular Logic

From what I can tell from 2ch, the reaction has been really rather positive.

positive with endings/????, but yet bitter with the story presentation or lack of truth revealing.

[MeoTwister5]

Twilight of the Golden Witch: The Murder Game

This is the murder game, where you now choose the solution to the final game of Rokkenjima. Yes, there is enough information to discover who the villain is for this last game.

Spoiler for Summary:

(Test in parenthesis are my own analysis and tips)



The Choices:

1. Reread the Story
2. Display the Rules
3. Confirm Purple Text
4. Hints
5. Choose the Criminal

Hint 1
- Beato raises the issue of how to even infer which purple is the criminallying and which is valid truth. Battler and Lambda admit that you have to be discerning in what to believe. Battler says flip over the board. Analyze the purple from the POV of the criminal and see what how he would lie and with what.

Hint 2
- Beato raises the issue of the POVs of the regular characters. Battler repeats the statement that the criminal can die or be dead. Beato asks if the purple text about death are reliable, especially with Nanjo. They think of the possibility of Nanjo being part of it and lying with the purple. They realize that if the criminal can lie, then there is no guarantee that the purple confirms that any of the people are dead.

Hint 3
- Beato realizes that with Bern's red, the only lies are in the speech, and all presented events that were seen can be considered true. The differentiation of truth from lies exist within the words spoken by the characters. They first try to validate what is evident in the presented events.

Hint 4
- Beato notices something in the seventh death involving Nanjo. Battler sees something with Jessica's death. Both can be considered confirmed dead with the story's direction and not necessarily requiring a purple to confirm. They realize that both Jessica and Nanjo and really dead. THEREFORE, NEITHER JESSICA OR NANJO CAN BE THE CRIMINAL. THEREFORE, THEIR PURPLE TEXT ARE VALID. The two go back through the purple of Nanjo and Jessica.

(Consider Nanjo. His purple before he died confirms the deaths of people, and because he is not the criminal, his purple is considered true and the people he autopsied are dead. By logical extension, because said people are dead, the dead he has confirmed cannot be the criminals because the criminal cannot be dead according to the rules. Further extrapolation will then reveal that because non-murderers will always tell the truth, the purple truth stated by the ones he has autopsied must therefore be true. Notice however that he does not confirm in purple the deaths of Rosa, Hideyoshi, Eva, Rudolph and Kyrie. Consider now Shannon, who DOES state that the child confirmed Kyrie and Rudolph to be dead, but it does not validated whether the child's confirmation was CORRECT.)

(At this point, we consider that the purple text of innocent people are true.)

Hint 5
- They confirm that Nanjo and Jessica spoke truth. They also realize my previous assessment of the rules, and therefore conclude that the dead people he confirmed cannot be criminals, namely Krauss, Natsuhi, Shannon, Gohda, Kumasawa. These people, as well as Nanjo and Jessica, are excluded from the list of suspects. They add Kanon to this due to the red given by Bern and validated by the rules.
- Lambda is surprised they managed to remove 8 people this fast.

Hint 6
- They also add Genji to this list. 9 people down. They begin to investigate the purples of the confirmed innocent suspects. They also realize that the purples regarding the first 6 victims does not exactly define them as dead but only bloodied.
- Battler says that neither he, Maria nor George managed to confirm their parents dead, although they notice that Shannon in purple says that "the child" confirmed the death of the child's parents. They realize, with Lambda's help, my previous assessment of that autopsy that they don't know if the child's autopsy was correct.
- They also realize that they cannot eliminate the last three survivors as suspects.

Hint 7
- Battler realizes that none of the master keys could have been used because none of the servants are criminals and only they could have used their keys. They wonder how then the criminal got access. They analyze the possibility of a secret trick.

Hint 8
- Beato postulates that the criminal may be part of the unconfirmed deaths in the dining room, locking the room and faking death and leaving afterwards. They wonder how to lock the rooms from the outside.
- She mistakenly assumes the six first victims are innocent and Battler corrects her.

Hint 9
- They analyze Natsuhi's room. All the members went to the room together after wondering what took them so long. Whoever it is, they think the criminal must have hidden in the room apart from everyone else, but people returned to the drawing room after seeing the scene. The red truth of definitely killing 6 people baffles them.
- They realize that when Bern said the red regarding the criminal having killed 6 people by that time, this (?) includes Krauss and Natsuhi.

(What does this mean? Consider that there are ideally 8 people dead by the time Bern mentions this red truth. However only the criminal can kill, and if he has killed 6 people, there seems to exist the possibility that only 6/8 people are dead by that time. I assume the possibility that perhaps 2 people from the 8 might actually be alive! One, or both, of these persons may be the criminal.)

(Consider as well that they didn't seal the dining room immediately. It may be that whoever faked death managed to get out without limits.)

Hint 10
- Battler and Beato realize that indeed, perhaps 2 of the 8 people may be alive to satisfy the 6 people red text. They theorize that the killer only killed 5 people in the dining room before proceeding to Natsuhi's room. They then wonder how someone could be hiding in her room.

Hint 11
- Battler theorizes that there might be a second criminal in the story. The first one might have been the one who killed Natsuhi and Krauss by hiding in the room. They think is might be either Battler, George or Maria who killed the rest.

(At this point I find it odd they don't consider that the second criminal might be one of the eight.)

Hint 12
- For Shannon's murder, they exclude George because he could not have killed her. They think it is either Maria or Battler. They cannot yet discount someone else. They find difficulty in determining who a possible second criminal could be.

Hint 13
- For Gohda and Kumasawa, they are limited by the statement that the four remaining family and Nanjo could not have killed those two. They believe that this proves that there must be someone else who killed these two, suggesting that a second criminal must exist.
- Both gain a lot of confidence.

Hint 14
- They begin to investigate the final murders and wonder about the child who performed an autopsy. They still think it is either Battler, George or Maria.
- They reasses the previous idea because the three final survivors could not have killed the last victims alone. They now consider that there may be three criminals. They also reasses the first 5 unsure victims for a possible third criminal.

Hint 15
- For Jessica, The three final survivors could not have killed her. They asses George's purple that Maria could not have killed anyone. They also asses Maria's purple that George could not have killed an adult, but he can kill a child. These two are considered in conflict like the chicken and egg problem. These two might be innocent.

Hint 16
- They attempt to verify Maria. They presume that Rosa would be part of this, and that Rosa would have been the killer up to Natsuhi and Maria would succeed after. However, Maria would not have been able to kill the guesthouse survivors and Shannon. He reasons that if none of the other first victims is part of it, perhaps a 4th person is part of the plot. They reason that if Maria is the criminal, there must be more conspirators to compensate for Maria's limitations.
- In this case, the first killer is an adult that killed the first two events. The second adult kills in the guesthouse. This might be impossible because a second adult besides Rosa would be needed, and a child could not have killed in the first two events. They also reason that the child who did the autopsy could not exist because it goes beyond the limit.
- Maria is unlikely.

Hint 17
- They verify George. If it is George, then Eva and Hideyoshi could be in on it. This gives 2 adults and one child. They however remember that George could not have killed Shannon. They remove George as a suspect.

(Let me clarify. The current assumption is that there are three possible criminals. One for the mansion events, one for the guesthouse and maybe one outside. They have reasoned that the mansion and guesthouse killers are adults because the children are excluded by the purple. The outside killer could be a child or one of the previous adults. However Maria is again limited by this and the fact that no viable second adult could be considered. George is also limited because he did not kill Shannon.)

Hint 18
- By purple exclusion, because George is innocent then his statement that Maria could not have killed anyone stands true. Therefore Maria is also innocent they conclude. They now try to identify the final people.

Hint 19
- They now believe it is at least 2 people. A single killer is impossible. They recall the impossibility of locking from the outside without the master keys. They now believe that the child who autopsied their parents must be lying to cover up for them, and is an accomplice. Beato now thinks that the first adult criminal locked themselves in Natsuhi's room. The second adult killed in the guesthouse. The child assisted them.

Hint 20
- Beato is convinced that the criminals are one family unit. They find it disturbing.

Hint 21
- Battler is now convinced that his incarnation in the game is the child who lied on the autopsy. They now have their answer.

(Yeah. The two adults are obvious now. You know who they are.)



Make your choice.

Now that's done it's time to choose. As for me I'm going to bed as I've been translating for 6 hours lol.

[Shiro Kaisen]

Originally Posted by Circular Logic

From what I can tell from 2ch, the reaction has been really rather positive.

This. They're more actively discussing the ending and deciding what it means than crying about how RYUUKISHI BETRAYED THEM! like the English-speaking spoiler-readers. Some people think it was a weak ending and some people feel like Ryuu was too strongly influenced by BT's death, but every other post isn't "GOD UMINEKO SUCKS NOW, EVERYTHING'S FAKE AND NOTHING'S REAL!"

On the contrary, they seem to feel that the Meta-world is, in fact, real.

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen

This. They're more actively discussing the ending and deciding what it means than crying about how RYUUKISHI BETRAYED THEM! like the English-speaking spoiler-readers. Some people think it was a weak ending and some people feel like Ryuu was too strongly influenced by BT's death, but every other post isn't "GOD UMINEKO SUCKS NOW, EVERYTHING'S FAKE AND NOTHING'S REAL!"

On the contrary, they seem to feel that the Meta-world is, in fact, real.

Heh. It's almost shocking that the Japanese native otaku-dom (with the usual nerdrage stereotype) is more mature about the entire deal than most of the English speaking fanbase that tries to dissociate itself from the negative stigma.

Kind of ironic actually.

[Dormeur]

Originally Posted by yuugi99

I wonder how is the Japanese netizens reacting now?

Unfortunately, it seems that many people got anger or were disappointed about lack of revealing the truth.
And they believe that Ryukishi07 described his readers and fans as 'goats' in Episode 8 and that he insulted them as if he has said "I'm God! Whoever takes objection to me is goat!".

Meanwhile, some people are discussing about possibility of another truth or interpretation.

[Shiro Kaisen]

Originally Posted by Dormeur

Unfortunately, it seems that many people got anger or were disappointed about lack of revealing the truth.
And they believe that Ryukishi07 described his readers and fans as 'goats' in Episode 8 and that he insulted them as if he has said "I'm God! Whoever takes objection to me is goat!".

Meanwhile, some people are discussing about possibility of another truth or interpretation.

To be fair to the goat bit, the Umineko fandom has been particularly awful at times regarding the mystery. People got absurdly and unnecessarily hostile and defensive about everything and proclaimed they alone understood the mystery. Ryuu isn't insulting the average reader, but the hardcore mystery guys who ruin it for everyone. As a good example, the post-6 "SHANNON HAS DID AND IS KILLING EVERYONE, IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS YOU'RE AUTISTIC AND CAN'T READ" people.