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Old 2011-06-22, 16:09   Link #22921
Kealym
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
[list]So while, yes, a number of the scenarios were constructed through actual creation of a physical mystery or use of sleight of hand, or a construct embellished into a mystery through lies, a goodly number of the mysteries were made to seem important or complicated, and the solution is simply that they didn't happen at all except in someone's lies. They may as well not even have talked about those in the meta-world, as the whole thing could've been dispensed with using Battler's ep3 garden battle logic: "That shit didn't happen."
Yeah, one of the reasons Erika was more competent as a detective, even if she was a bitch about it, is that she was way more insistent about checking the actual physical status of things.

Battler seemed to take Virgilia's advice on the EP3 magic battle, and say "Nope. Didn't happen." because that was the only ... good argument he had against such a large, flashy fantasy display. It's a solution he should've been using more often, but then, the EP3 battle in the garden was probably the single most bombastic lie in Beato's game, and probably overshadowed more mundane matters, like whether a door was locked, in his thinking.

Or at least that's what I like to think - it's possible Ryu was just writing him incompetent for the sake of the story. Erika never did figure out that knocking mystery, after all, and she's supposed to be a genius.
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Old 2011-06-22, 16:24   Link #22922
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
  • Shannon's presence in the shed in ep1 is constructed solely by a lie.
  • According to Will, the chain-locked room of ep1 is constructed by a lie.
  • Kanon's death in ep1 is a lie.
  • Most of ep3 is presumably genuine, at least in the sense that something other than a lie holds the puzzles together.
  • The door to the chapel in ep2 may have been locked solely because someone said it was.
  • As you said, essentially all of ep4 except the shed murders is basically a lie, or at least Battler has no means of distinguishing whether that is so.
  • The knock in ep5 is (apparently) a lie.
  • The solution to the Logic Error is predicated on misinformation, which is like a lie.
So while, yes, a number of the scenarios were constructed through actual creation of a physical mystery or use of sleight of hand, or a construct embellished into a mystery through lies, a goodly number of the mysteries were made to seem important or complicated, and the solution is simply that they didn't happen at all except in someone's lies. They may as well not even have talked about those in the meta-world, as the whole thing could've been dispensed with using Battler's ep3 garden battle logic: "That shit didn't happen."
If we go by the assumption that "illusions to illusions" means that no one actually died and "earth to earth" means that the corpses are actually dead people, all of EP1 is nothing but a charade. This would help explaining why Hideyoshi lied.

Conversely anything from the second twilight onward in EP3 was a real murder, and the murderer was Eva.
This is even more anticlimatic because Eva was hinted to be the culprit since... before the murders even occured!

In EP2 no one died until the very end. Probably Shannon killed the ones who previously faked their death before killing herself in the last room.

The same is probably true for EP4.

And Kinzo's corpse is probably just a dummy.


Anyway in the end the difficulty of the mysteries of Umineko solely rely on the sheer amount of lies that are told to ther reader.

This is not much different from the classic joke/riddle that asks you how many eggs can lay a rooster.

The trick here is to ignore the well constructed trap that is meant to make you assume that there is actually a complex problem to solve while in fact you must simply realize that there is not a problem to begin with!

That's basically Genji's riddle in EP8


The problem is... this kind of stratagem is usually done "for the lulz" and not to propose a serious challenge.


EDIT: Actually it's possible that in EP3 the killer is "yasu", that way you don't even have the problem of Nanjo's murder. But in that case... what about the letter that claimed the the ceremony would end if someone solved the riddle? Was that also a lie? Meh...
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Old 2011-06-22, 16:48   Link #22923
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
Actually it's possible that in EP3 the killer is "yasu", that way you don't even have the problem of Nanjo's murder. But in that case... what about the letter that claimed the the ceremony would end if someone solved the riddle? Was that also a lie? Meh...
I imagined that Eva didn't communicate to Yasu that she solved it due to her paranoia or through some other sort of circumstance Yasu wasn't aware that Eva had solved it, leading to a hilarious tragedy of miscommunication. Luuuulz.
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Old 2011-06-22, 17:01   Link #22924
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Considering ep. III setting (all of them are stuck in the guest-house) i really find hard to believe Yasu didn't notice that two people solved the epitaph and reached the gold. And using "She didn't notice lol!" as an excuse would be a pretty a shitty move from R07.

But then again,Rosa and Kyrie couldn't do it (no falsehood etc), the Red text forbids Eva... we are left with Yasu and her shenanigans.




Anyway, about ep III, in the recent interview R07 pretty much implied we can associate Evatrice character with other killers, didn't he?
I was thinking, since Rosa and Eva solved the Epitaph wouldn't that make Kyrie a suspect as well? Maybe she solved the Epitaph as well?
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Old 2011-06-22, 17:22   Link #22925
Kealym
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
If we go by the assumption that "illusions to illusions" means that no one actually died and "earth to earth" means that the corpses are actually dead people, all of EP1 is nothing but a charade. This would help explaining why Hideyoshi lied.

Conversely anything from the second twilight onward in EP3 was a real murder, and the murderer was Eva.
This is even more anticlimatic because Eva was hinted to be the culprit since... before the murders even occured!

In EP2 no one died until the very end. Probably Shannon killed the ones who previously faked their death before killing herself in the last room.

The same is probably true for EP4.

And Kinzo's corpse is probably just a dummy.


Anyway in the end the difficulty of the mysteries of Umineko solely rely on the sheer amount of lies that are told to ther reader.

This is not much different from the classic joke/riddle that asks you how many eggs can lay a rooster.

The trick here is to ignore the well constructed trap that is meant to make you assume that there is actually a complex problem to solve while in fact you must simply realize that there is not a problem to begin with!

That's basically Genji's riddle in EP8


The problem is... this kind of stratagem is usually done "for the lulz" and not to propose a serious challenge.


EDIT: Actually it's possible that in EP3 the killer is "yasu", that way you don't even have the problem of Nanjo's murder. But in that case... what about the letter that claimed the the ceremony would end if someone solved the riddle? Was that also a lie? Meh...
I interpreted "Illusions to Illusions" to mean that a significant lie or false death was INVOLVED, but doesn't preclude actual murder. For example, while Yasu's intentions are a bit up in the air, I see very little reason to doubt whether or not the First Twilight victims in Legend and Turn were real or not, save for Shannon in the shed. It's extremely cumbersome on the plot to try and fathom that EVERY death was false until the very end - for example, it's pretty much confirmed at this point that Kanon perpetrated the Second Twilight in both EP 1 and 2.

And the degree of Eva's guilt in EP3 is ... kinda debatable. The only murders we almost absolutely HAVE to blame on her are Krauss and Natsuhi.

I see no reason to doubt that the Kinzo-corpse we saw was the real one. We ourselves never find out where Natsuhi stuck him, but everyone keeping his phantom alive is probably fully capable of dragging him up as is convenient or them. In fact, it raises some interesting thoughts about Natsuhi's mindset after the 4th Twilight in EP 1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FirstTwilight View Post
Considering ep. III setting (all of them are stuck in the guest-house) i really find hard to believe Yasu didn't notice that two people solved the epitaph and reached the gold. And using "She didn't notice lol!" as an excuse would be a pretty a shitty move from R07.

But then again,Rosa and Kyrie couldn't do it (no falsehood etc), the Red text forbids Eva... we are left with Yasu and her shenanigans.




Anyway, about ep III, in the recent interview R07 pretty much implied we can associate Evatrice character with other killers, didn't he?
I was thinking, since Rosa and Eva solved the Epitaph wouldn't that make Kyrie a suspect as well? Maybe she solved the Epitaph as well?
EP3 itself showed that Evatrice could represent humans other than Eva, as Evatrice was shown killing Nanjo. It's kind of an interesting thought that Kyrie might've solved the epitaph on her own, and we just weren't shown ... ...
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Old 2011-06-22, 17:49   Link #22926
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I just found this on /jp/


Spoiler for Spoiler for both Higurashi and Umineko:


It's from an ep EP8 guidebook.
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Old 2011-06-22, 18:10   Link #22927
victorino123
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Originally Posted by FirstTwilight View Post
Anyway, about ep III, in the recent interview R07 pretty much implied we can associate Evatrice character with other killers, didn't he?
I was thinking, since Rosa and Eva solved the Epitaph wouldn't that make Kyrie a suspect as well? Maybe she solved the Epitaph as well?
What's the last inerview from R07? =P And where can i find it?
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Old 2011-06-22, 21:03   Link #22928
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Quote:
Considering ep. III setting (all of them are stuck in the guest-house) i really find hard to believe Yasu didn't notice that two people solved the epitaph and reached the gold. And using "She didn't notice lol!" as an excuse would be a pretty a shitty move from R07.
How would she know? It's not like Eva was all like "Hey guys I found the gold." And Yasu was in the main house or the chapel apparently.
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Old 2011-06-22, 21:10   Link #22929
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How would she know? It's not like Eva was all like "Hey guys I found the gold." And Yasu was in the main house or the chapel apparently.
Wouldn't she notice the statue facing the other way, or the ladder Eva would've had to leave behind, or something?
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Old 2011-06-22, 21:13   Link #22930
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Maybe, maybe not. It depends on where the hell Yasu was at the time and what the hell she's up to when no one's keeping an eye on the two corpses she's supposed to be maintaining. Bitch got her hands full keeping this delicate clusterfuck from blowing up in her face.
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Old 2011-06-22, 23:05   Link #22931
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Alright, I've investigated the two other new TIPS I mentioned the other day. The first one, Rokkenjima Investigation File, turned out to just be a book of character concept art and some commentary, so nothing particularly interesting in the text.

As for the other one... Well. Have a translation.

Spoiler for Jessica and the Killer Electric Fan:
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Last edited by LyricalAura; 2012-02-26 at 21:39.
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Old 2011-06-22, 23:15   Link #22932
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That was...THE BEST SHIT.
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Old 2011-06-22, 23:26   Link #22933
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
book of character concept art
Scans where
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Old 2011-06-22, 23:29   Link #22934
LyricalAura
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Scans where
No idea, the umineco wiki only has the text.
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Old 2011-06-22, 23:38   Link #22935
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No idea, the umineco wiki only has the text.
That's too bad, I'd love to see those!
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Old 2011-06-23, 01:50   Link #22936
Jan-Poo
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Rokken Kingdom... ahem...

Anyway that story of the "killer fan" made me remember this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oms2grI1TC0&feature=fvsr
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Old 2011-06-23, 02:35   Link #22937
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Quote:
Rokken Kingdom
Atleast he didn't invoke King Zoshiromear.
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Old 2011-06-23, 09:57   Link #22938
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Does someone know where can i find the interviews for more tips? plss
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Old 2011-06-23, 11:50   Link #22939
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Well, good thing that electric fan is there. They might need it in case that deadly gazebo in the rose garden goes on a rampage.
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Old 2011-06-23, 13:29   Link #22940
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Speaking of which, The killer electric fan did it. Prove me wrong.
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