2012-08-23, 19:52 | Link #23081 | |
AS Oji-kun
Join Date: Nov 2006
Age: 74
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany...rael_relations What reparations, if any, did Japan pay to China, Korea, and the other states it occupied during the War?
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2012-08-23, 19:54 | Link #23082 | |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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If no war criminals were included in the memorial, people wouldn't be talking about this. I mean, the things these guys did was completely abhorrent. Read about the Nanking Massacre, and then ask yourself if it's right that the commanders who perpetrated that are now enshrined in their countries national memorial. |
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2012-08-23, 20:04 | Link #23083 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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What is probably the most unfortunate thing about that is that Japan never got a keyword type name for its government or party that ran the goverenment that is the focus of all the war crimes and other things associated with the War. Germany got the Nazis. The Country can be seperated from the political party and its leadership when it comes to calming blame, reperations and all sorts of things.
Japan is and was Japan. They never did get something like an internationly accepted scapegoat to pawn their abuses off on, or however that should be worded to be or polite. Today Germany is Germany. Nazis are Nazis. The two do not always equal each other and thus Germany doesn't have a swastika shaped bird hanging around their neck like an albatros. The Land of the Rising Sun remains what it was and yet is totally different due to their new Constitution (the Allies handwork). On the other hand...Japan also got one last "honor" in that war that so far it maintains. It is the only country to have every been the subject of an atomic attack. And they as well as most other nations hope to keep it that way. As for the shrine. The priests refuse to remove the war criminals, saying that it is impossible. You can't force a religion to do something against itself and make it stick. You can't realisticallty expect the other 2 million soldiers to move their souls or however it works just so someone else will be comfortable because Togo is also with them? Nor their families to reject the place entirely because of something done by the priests in 1978, long after the war ended. The Emperor stopped going there in protest, but not everyone must do so unless of course the Emporer ordered them not to go (an order that was never given). If I understand it correctly, even if the Japanese wanted to have a different place, they religiously could not if those souls cannot be moved (I don't mean the war criminals...I mean the rest of them). Thus, because of the priests...Japan just deals with it. That other countries make it a huge deal is quite honestly, their problem, not Japan's.
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2012-08-23, 20:51 | Link #23084 | |
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Like I said, do that same thing in Germany, have a shrine setup to honor ALL of WW2 Germany, including Hitler and Co. and see if anyone gives 2 shits if it was setup because of religious reasons, esp. if the PM of Germany pays visits to said shrine. |
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2012-08-23, 20:58 | Link #23085 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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The rest of them deserve their honors though. The rest can be accepted or ignored by whomeveer is there.
I can recount a story of one Julius Henry Marx, a American Jew who went to Berlin following World War II. He made a trip to the location of the Nazi High Command Bunker. It was still under rubble at the time I believe. He didn't do much...just the Charleston on top of it. But then, what would one expect from "Groucho" Marx.
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2012-08-23, 21:04 | Link #23086 | |||||||
思想工作
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 32
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I still think Chinese should deal with the massive damage their own government and party that is still in power did to them before picking on the peaceful, democratic successor state of the nation that committed crimes in WW2. This is particularly true when you compare the magnitude of the crimes at hand. PS: I know why the Chinese complain about the Japanese and not their own problems, of course, but I'm speaking from an idealistic viewpoint. |
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2012-08-23, 21:12 | Link #23087 | |
( ಠ_ಠ)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Peace_with_Japan Japan has paid hundreds of billions, especially to Korea, over the course of fifty years. In addition, in 1965 Japan paid Korea 800 million dollars (yes, as in US dollars) which was more than double the national income of Korea at the time. Korean government has never informed their public of these though, and keep asking for more. China asked 50 trillion back in 2000, but unofficially. It was demanded by PRC officers individually, and not an official nation to nation negotiation. That went ignored, of course. Neither nation publicized the incident, but it's on the official records.
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2012-08-23, 21:16 | Link #23088 |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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@LeoXiao: I agree that the CCP is probably just using it as deflection tactics to try to rouse up nationalist fervour. But Japan really shouldn't be giving them such easy opportunities.
But when Taiwan or Korea objects, I don't think there's nearly as many ulterior motives going on. That said, Korea does sometimes indulge a bit too much in petty nationalism, in a manner similar to Ireland with the UK. On the flipside, you don't ever get the British government ever denying their responsibility for the Irish famine, whereas you do get elements of the Japanese government denying the whole comfort women thing... |
2012-08-23, 21:17 | Link #23089 | |
Le fou, c'est moi
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 34
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But they called it Official Development Assistance, ODA. For China's case, Japan's ODA program started (I think) after the Nixon thaw, negotiated between then Premier Zhou Enlai and the Japanese leaders who themselves were rather bewildered at the new rapprochement. Nobody wanted to call it reparations; the Chinese didn't want to publicize it, the Japanese had that pesky honor thing to worry about, there's the Taiwan issue, which Japan had relatively friendly relations with, etc. Made perfect sense, everybody went home content, China got a huge influx of reparations over the years, Japan successfully realigned to the new geopolitical reality (at the cost of diplomatic relationship with Taiwan) -- the ODA maybe continuing even now, I'm not sure of the latest status (it was still ongoing in 2011), though ever since Koizumi's era Japan had been wondering rather publicly why it was still paying "assistance" to a rising world power. Problem is, the new generation of Chinese grew up wondering where the reparations are, because there are no official reparations, and the Chinese government wasn't about to say to their own people, hey, that ODA thing they sent us is reparations in all but name, ja. Of course, the ODA program included many more partners than previous war victims, so it's partly the Japanese's fault to dilute the focus. ODA to Africa has a very different political purpose compared to ODA to China. In fact, a very large part of the reason this is an ongoing issue is because Japan officially sucks terribad at PR. Various Japanese Prime Ministers have apologized, repeatedly and over various highly symbolic occasions, reparations were paid -- as ODA -- and almost all Japanese history textbooks most certainly taught about the Nanjing massacre among other atrocities. The "news" about those historical revisionist textbooks is far worse than someone from Europe assuming Americans don't know shit about evolution because of a fucked up conservative Texan school district or two. Yes, they exist, and no, 99.5% of Japanese high school students don't use them. Yet all that effort is easily sidelined when Japan *always* have a bunch of extremist nationalist politicians who just have to stir the pot with inane comments and provocative shrine visits. I think I could make a pretty good argument that the failure of the Tokyo trials in comparison to the Nuremburg trials in purging the Japanese old guard had done, long term, devastating damage to Japan's ability to "move on" diplomatically, not the least because a German-style precedent (where being even slightly sympathetic to the Third Reich is literally a crime, not to mention a socio-political suicide) failed to establish itself. Had there been such a taboo, the sense that total rejection of the militarist legacy was the dominant norm, the nationalist idiots might have been shut up and neighboring governments wouldn't have so many easy rile-up targets to use whenever they feel like pressuring Japan on this and that. |
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2012-08-23, 21:36 | Link #23090 | ||||
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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2012-08-23, 22:09 | Link #23091 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Montreal, QC, Canada
Age: 40
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I didn't think that my question would raise such debate. However, I think everything has been exposed here since (Thanks, Irenicus).
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From what I can hear in Vietnam (I have Vietnamese blood BTW), there's not much animosity today towards the Americans despite all the shit that went on over there. We can surely list a number of bad things that were done during that time, but I have never heard something from today's Vietnamese generation which would create tensions with Americans. People have chosen to move on and it was for the best. Quote:
About extremist nationalist politicians, there are everywhere. But who's to say that people should take them seriously? Jean-Marie and Marine Le Pen in France are quite radical, but people would never be foolish enough to let him become president. Austria had Jörg Haider, but he was never to be elected anyway. Why so serious? Anyway, it's something else that bugs me and it's more about human reaction. Everytime I see the Chinese people who keep on dwelling about the past while doing those anti-Japanese demonstrations/riots, I'm quite disappointed at the lack of response from the Japanese people. Without going into that nationalist crap, I really want to see Japanese showing pride and indicating they can play this game in front of PRC's interests in Japan too. If people in another country started going apeshit against Canada tomorrow, I'd be pissed off to the point of expecting a response from our people with protests against that country too. It's one thing to recognize mistakes of the past, but it's another to stay there without replying something equivalent to "F*** y'all! You have gone too far and we have enough of your attitude towards us." Sorry for the language, but I just can't conceive the idea that people from an entire nation would not respond after taking so many insults over the years. |
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2012-08-23, 22:51 | Link #23092 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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Meanwhile, in the 21st century, Japan is rearming to some extent because of China. While the Japanese Constitution make it quite clear that they cannot have a military force for offensive actions, they have and are building vessels that are roughly equivalent tonnage to World War II era Japanese carriers. These of course are called helicopter_destroyer and are purposed with defending the nation against submarines...but honestly the newer ones under construction now are basically aircraft carriers or assualt ships in anyone else's navy.
And since it have been nearly 70 years since the last Japanese carrier was disposed of by the Allies and that China has been rather agressive of late, I'd say keep them. An ally that can actively defend itself it worth more than one that can't if things ever do go badly in that region of the world, and yet don't go nuclear. I'll be worried about Japan if they start building Arsenal Ships or Space Battlehips and call them Yamato in honor of their homeland.
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2012-08-23, 23:07 | Link #23093 | ||||
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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2012-08-23, 23:48 | Link #23094 | |||
Le fou, c'est moi
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 34
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What were you expecting; justice, fairness, in high-stakes geopolitics...? Quote:
The famous PM Koizumi is actually from one of the nationalist factions of LDP, though he made his mark inside Japan mostly by playing the anti-party establishment maverick to "shake up" the existing order, rather than the internationally troubled shrine visits. Maybe a random Diet member being an idiot doesn't hurt too much (let us not speak of the level of criminal idiocy present in the right honorable United States Congress), but a cabinet member is going to make the news. Unfortunately, the Japanese system is, shall we say, unsuited to providing the best talent at the cabinet level. Of course, the problem is, other countries want those news. The more that happens, the more nationalism gets riled up in their own countries, giving a boost to their regimes, and the more pressure gets put on Japan's diplomatic corps to compromise. Quote:
The sort of activist politics seen in the West is the purview of the "passionate" few in Japan; the recent incident occurred because a Japanese nationalist group sponsored the "trip," remember. Finally, Japanese businesses are deeply involved in the Chinese market. They don't want provocation and escalation. For all the tension in the news and the political showdown over the islands, trade and investment in East Asia is growing to record highs every year. |
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2012-08-23, 23:58 | Link #23095 |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
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i think the issue regarding Japanese apologies is that there are no symbolic acts to back it up. Using Germany as example again, after ww2, Germany purge the government of members of the Nazi party, outlaw the nazi party and put warrants for the arrest of the previous leaders of the nazi party as well as scores of mid and low members who were involve in the atrocities.
Japan never had this kind of purge. A few of the higher ups like tojo was scape goat. But that was it, no purge, no arrest warrants, everything was business as normal. For example members of Unit-731 was allow to return to society with absolutely no repercussions. you can blame the US for the fact that they not punish but Japan could have stood up and said what they did was wrong and has no place in civilize society and kick them out of the country.
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2012-08-23, 23:59 | Link #23096 | ||||
( ಠ_ಠ)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
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Sure it dwells on people mind and ruins image of the said party/people/region, but that doesn't directly connect with protests or riots in Japanese culture. Only riots I recall in Japan were during the politically instable era right after post-war, as well as rising of communist terrorism of the Red Army. Those crazies actually worked negatively for their own cause, making the entire population to see large scale protests and riots as "shameful". That's lingered long after the Red Army was taken down (at least inside Japan. Some of those RA people went activists overseas, spreading violence and hate) Quote:
Their government asked instead for billions of money, which were paid, but never reflected on their own people. I don't think there's anything you can do to satisfy bloodlust. Quote:
Many of the prominent nationalists recently have been making move to make their own party instead, since their rather far-right values were conflicting with moderate right wings. As for DPJ... they're in general left wing, but the biggest problem with them is the sheer incompetency in doing... well, anything. Also they tend to put personal gains above national interest, and hasn't been working out well at all. Even with all the critics American Democrats get, they are still far better than DPJ in running the country. Quote:
Japan was under the control of military, instead of a political party at the time. There were no "Nazi party" to disband, just the military leaders who were in charge of the nation. The dissassembly of Japanese Navy and Army was exactly the equivalent of dismantling of Nazi party. In other words, IJA WAS the Nazi of Japan. And "US didn't punish Japan"?? Oh come on, you can't be serious. McArthur disbanded the very force that was in control of Japan, and even went as far as forcing laws to disassemble large corporations of Japan, in hopes of crippling them finacially. Until Japanese economy got back on their feet, this caused enormous amount of misery and poverty. Stripped of right to arm, and banned corporate conglomarates, US made sure Japan became a puppet-nation of America, and serve as their outpost in East Asia. Don't give me this US never punished Japan BS. That's some anti-Japanese propaganda from you-know-who. I don't disagree with less sincerity and lack of symbolic apologies, but I'm going to have to disagree with the rest. I think Irenicus pretty much accurately wrapped everything up though, I don't think there's really any debate left.
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Last edited by aohige; 2012-08-24 at 01:01. |
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2012-08-24, 01:01 | Link #23097 | |||
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Montreal, QC, Canada
Age: 40
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Nope! I enjoy taking the piss at the PRC going wild against others when the stinking part still sits within their borders. |
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2012-08-24, 01:09 | Link #23098 | |
( ಠ_ಠ)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
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It's rather, majority of Japanese gave up on government to actually have an impact, and have this attitude of "it doesn't matter nothing is going to change". There are vocal minorities active everywhere, pointing fingers at either side of the parties, just like in US. But the difference is, the energy and drive to actually do something about it is extremely lacking among the public as a whole. So yes, they are pessimisstic about policits in general. EDIT: Oh yeah, forgot to mention one thing... yes, it feels like Tea Party of Japan. And the leader of this nationalist party? Our lovely gov. Ishihara. Of course. Yes, same Ishihara that's a sworn enemy of otaku everywhere. His is not the only new conservative parties around, but one of the mass-media visible one.
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Last edited by aohige; 2012-08-24 at 01:28. |
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2012-08-24, 01:39 | Link #23099 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Montreal, QC, Canada
Age: 40
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Each country usually comes up with such character once in a while; the USA had JFK, the UK had Tony Blair, Canada had Pierre Elliot Trudeau (whose son, Justin, is a good prospect for the future). Japan are due to have a new champion emerging from the masses, I hope. Quote:
Japan's version of Jean-Marie Le Pen, heh? |
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current affairs, discussion, international |
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