[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[Judoh]

I'd like to present a problem with the retroactive sealing of the rooms.

Knox's 9th. It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard! Hideyoshi claims that George was in the cousins room with Jessica before the location check had been made! If Erika had sealed the rooms retroactively before the locations of the people had been checked George should be in the cousins room with Jessica, but the red truth says he is in the room next over because he moved there, therefore if he is allowed to move to that room the seals themselves must not be a retroactive move by Erika. There must be time for George to move to the next room over before the rooms are sealed and there is also possibly time for Kanon to leave the cousin's room before it is sealed.

[Leafsnail]

Originally Posted by Kit

There are a lot of hints concerning Shkanon but the end solution to the puzzle makes no sense if ShKanon was true, unless you're suggesting that it was Shannon that saved Battler in the end.

Actually, Shkannon fully solves the end puzzle, heh.

And it would make more sense for Shannon to try and help him than Kanon in any case.

If everyone's sick of romance, we should at least be consoled that Bernkastel is the GM of the next one. She has no love at all, so...

[winter 923]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

However, the sealing of Battler's guest room was retroactive. And Battler didn't know about that until Erika told him. So, if she placed the seals on the cousins' room and the next room over before checking everyone's location, everything works out.

Actually yes! this is the loop hole is it not? to be retroactive it needs to be claimed, however she never stated that the two rooms were retroactive sealed. "As soon as these changes affect the progression of the game, they will be reported to the Game MASTER." Erika did not claim to seal the windows in the evening before the first twilight. Loophole? the Game Master needs to change the board accordingly wich he can not if he does not know.

[Disz]

Ugh.Why does everyone keep saying that shkannon solves everything as if they're 100% positive?

Fine then,if you people are so sure,go ahead.Try to solve the whole puzzel with Shkannon.

Let it be known,whether it is a person or a spiritual being of the subconciousness,it can not, certainly not die twice.

[Leafsnail]

It doesn't solve everything. The whole point of it is that it's an emergency piece for Beatrice if she really needs it. Using it again and again would pointlessly risk it.

It does, on the other hand, make Kanon saving Battler a trivial problem to solve.

[Kit]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

Actually, Shkannon fully solves the end puzzle, heh.

And it would make more sense for Shannon to try and help him than Kanon in any case.

If everyone's sick of romance, we should at least be consoled that Bernkastel is the GM of the next one. She has no love at all, so...

I've already responded with why I think it is not a proper solution :/ You can just as easily solve the puzzle by having Kanon break out of the rooms (breaking out of the room would mean the solution to the Logic Error), since there are no reds saying that seals are left intact after the logic error. This is possibly also a reason for Beatrice giving Erika a method X to explain Kanon's escape so she could move the puzzle along without having her think too much about it.

[Leafsnail]

The seal on the room Kanon was in was confirmed to be intact. He can't break out.

[Kit]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

The seal on the room Kanon was in was confirmed to be intact. He can't break out.

It is in tact at the time of the logic error. It never said it has to be intact after. Breaking the seals would mean the end of the "Logic Error" time frame.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Kit

So I'd like to rephrase - I think it's in many ways illegal to say that Kanon doesn't exist in the bedroom if Shkanon is true.

Even supposing that's true. Then shkanon died. If you think that's more fair, go with it. Shkanon just offers a possibility different than a non existence by death, but it's not like it can't use it as well.

Originally Posted by Disz

Also,when they killed Rosa and Maria,are you implying she pretented to be Kannon,killed Rosa and changes herself, and kills Maria.

Disz... What the hell are you talking about? Rosa and Maria weren't dead
They faked their death and then created the closed room by themselves. Why do you think that anyone had to pretend to be there and pretend to kill them?

Originally Posted by Judoh

I'd like to present a problem with the retroactive sealing of the rooms.

Knox's 9th. It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard! Hideyoshi claims that George was in the cousins room with Jessica before the location check had been made! If Erika had sealed the rooms retroactively before the locations of the people had been checked George should be in the cousins room with Jessica, but the red truth says he is in the room next over because he moved there, therefore if he is allowed to move to that room the seals themselves must not be a retroactive move by Erika. There must be time for George to move to the next room over before the rooms are sealed and there is also possibly time for Kanon to leave the cousin's room before it is sealed.

That's not a problem.

First. Nowhere it has been said that the seals must be placed all at the same time. In fact we have proof of the contrary in the case of Battler's room.
The seals on the window could have been placed at any given time.
The seals on the doors were most probably placed as soon as Erika left the next room over.

Now just try to reason from Erika's perspective for a moment. Erika couldn't say "I sealed both rooms" as soon as she left. She had to first ask Battler everyone's position, else she'd just waste two of her precious sealing powers.
Therefore only after Battler confirmed everything she wanted to know she announced the sealing of the rooms. She was given retroactive authority, why do you think she would go all the trouble of sealing doors and windows after the point in time Battler declared everyone's position? Why? If she could just retroactively seal them?

Plus we have clear hints that she could retroactively seal the rooms. But do we have any hint that after Erika left the next room over she went outside of the guesthouse to seal the windows? If not I claim that it is a violation of the rules. It is impossible to solve a mystery without unpresented clues.

[winter 923]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

It doesn't solve everything. The whole point of it is that it's an emergency piece for Beatrice if she really needs it. Using it again and again would pointlessly risk it.

It does, on the other hand, make Kanon saving Battler a trivial problem to solve.

One footstep after another. If my loophole stands ground it does change everything. Not only is it possible for everyone else to leave that room. Beatrice also forced Erika to open the in red sealed room next door Why was it dangerous? that is to be found out. There is also a chance of "Kinzo" i am not calling him dead yet

Why take Kanon? and not Rudolf? Rudolf can not rescue himself Why can Kanon leave the room? three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. someone already said Kanon is Battler ofc. Battler and Kanon are different people. it is POSSIBLE that Kanon is Battler Tanaka maybe his real name is Sento but i am not touching that. that would mean he is a pretty short 19 year old. After rescuing Battler the seal on the room next was opened so it would be possible to change Persona to anyone else besides the dead even Battler since Erika only said you to confirm Battlers whereabouts

the dangerous part is 3Bodys went in or out. That only "Battler" left. Kanon is not in the room. This eighter reveales that Kanon has a split personality or his real name is Battler. Magic: he realy died. All furnitures are Beatrices Pieces. real magic. Erika said just a minute before that if Kanon's real Name is George Tanake he could be in George's Room ....so sorry i really fight with this but: Kanon's real name ist Battler

Also a dangerous part to consider. It can never ever claim that the curlpit is Maria, Rosa, Natsushi, Kyrie, Eva and everyone can count them out as being "Beatrice" why? because they got killed for sure by an outstider

i do not know if Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people. leaves room for shkannon being in the closet.

[winter 923]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Plus we have clear hints that she could retroactively seal the rooms. But do we have any hint that after Erika left the next room over she went outside of the guesthouse to seal the windows? If not I claim that it is a violation of the rules. It is impossible to solve a mystery without unpresented clues.

like i already said. she has to report that they are retroactive. I am using your It is impossible to solve a mystery without unpresented clues.
Erika did not present that she sealed the windows in the evening she says "And though we sealed the room retroactivly, we are at fault for the lateness in reporting it" (meaning Battler's room) Erika never reports of sealing the windows on the other 2 rooms retroactively

Also just for the heck of it: if they were retroactive even withouth reporting the only other way to solve this is Kanon is Kinzo Tanaka [It has already been shown that Kinzo no longer exists, so please remove him from the word 'everyone'.] I acknowledge that everyone else is in the cousins' room.
Kinzo is the only one who could move. i will not allow the window of the next room.

[June 1983]

Ahhh, excuse me. :O I just wanted to ask if there are any compilations/lists of the red statements in Episode 6? I checked witchhunters but they haven't been updated yet.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by winter 923

like i already said. she has to report that they are retroactive. I am using your It is impossible to solve a mystery without unpresented clues.
Erika did not present that she sealed the windows in the evening she says "And though we sealed the room retroactivly, we are at fault for the lateness in reporting it" (meaning Battler's room) Erika never reports of sealing the windows on the other 2 rooms retroactively

Erika was late at reporting the retroactive move.
Try to understand the meaning of this sentence. She was late at reporting the retroactive move.

That means the retroactive move has been already made.

But in the case of the two rooms she announced the retroactive move at the very same time she made it. She did report it!

[Heatth]

Btw, there is no need for Kanon to 'die twice' in the Shkannon theory. There is no need to Kanon to die at all. When was said Kanon died in red again? Heck, when it was said Kanon died in the first place? He just 'died' in the fantasy scenes (where we have seen many non dead people dieing as well) and in the End Roll (where it was reported the death of many other people).

You guys seems to assume Kanon must have died before going to the Guest Room even tough this wasn't mentioned at any point. By Shkannon theory Kanon don't even need to die (although it is a possibility, interpreting the fantasy scenes).

Ah, thank-you Jan-Poo. Not very good with words, good to have a backup.

Originally Posted by June 1983

Ahhh, excuse me. :O I just wanted to ask if there are any compilations/lists of the red statements in Episode 6? I checked witchhunters but they haven't been updated yet.

I posted it already. Anyway here go: Umineko Wikia Red Truths

This wiki is awesome. You can find all translated extra TIPs there as well.

[DgBarca]

So I have done a quick and poorly done diagram of the love duel thing and noticed that everybody of the 3 couples have a personality "split in two parts" that make one.

For love to succeed, the 2 people in love shall bring their two parts in one. The thing is that there the "unknown" part of Sayo and Yoshiya is, surly, the same. So one shall kill the other one to claim the entirety of the "missing link".

This is how I interpret it. It might be the butterfly brooch or other things...but there is no need of Shkanon in this theory.

It does not explain what happened in the gameboard, but the "green box" is maybe the "key" related to the "part of Beato" in other words, the epitaph.
And...the obvious thing of the epitaph of the love duel is the second twilight.

[Leafsnail]

Originally Posted by Kit

It is in tact at the time of the logic error. It never said it has to be intact after. Breaking the seals would mean the end of the "Logic Error" time frame.

The game ended at the time of the logic error... and who placed the letter, in that case?

[June 1983]

Originally Posted by Heatth

I posted it already. Anyway here go: Umineko Wikia Red Truths

This wiki is awesome. You can find all translated extra TIPs there as well.

Thanks! Don't know why I didn't think to check the Wiki ...

[winter 923]

yes the retroactive move. i was fix on the singular. but i think that would not work in japanese? and as it seems also not in english.
but the window of the next room is to childrish it is something a 9yr old would do
"i state X happened but it can only happen after you removed rule Y in wich i tricked you by stating i did X" or
"you can not argue in blue that the seal broke. i did not! i did it in red!nya"
I agree that childs do see more but this is no way near any level of a riddle for R07. even Maria's riddlebook is better.

so i am going with Kinzo=Kanon or Kanon=Battler. I do not know if this card could be played since Erika did not say Battler in particular.

[theplane2]

Originally Posted by winter 923

so i am going with Kinzo=Kanon or Kanon=Battler. I do not know if this card could be played since Erika did not say Battler in particular.

Kanon and Battler are not the same person and Kinzo is dead at the start of all games (though, was that ever stated in EP6? I can't remember for certain but I think it was said it wasn't touched upon because they knew he was dead and therefore couldn't do anything), but what do you mean by 'Battler in particular'?

[winter 923]

it was not stated in red! actually let me rephrase that. it was never stated WHERE kinzo is. just because he is dead does not mean he is nowhere. and erika exluded him from the word "everyone"
also it does not rule out Kanon beeing Battler TANAKA, he is clearly not Battler Ushiromiya. also i would go for Kinzo TANAKA. Erika already said that this is an legal move and since any "kinzo" is not in the cousins room he can move.