AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Retired M-Z > Umineko

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-08-31, 05:13   Link #601
kaitwospirit
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhysfel View Post
Well, we could say that Nanjo's role is similar to Dr. Armstrong's role in Agatha Christie's ''And then there Were None''.(Which is very similar to Umineko)
Spoiler for That Novel:


Or maybe his just an accomplice after all...
Well... given that Kinzo is dead before the start of all these games, then Nanjo has to be involved to some extent: after all, dead people don't need doctors. Whether he's a killer, I don't know, but he gives an estimate of Kinzo's remaining lifespan every single time without having seen the guy. At the very least he's being paid off to do that and keep his mouth shut about not knowing where Kinzo is.

My guess is that he was roped in by promises of money for treating his sick grandkid, and all he had to do was come to the island for the family conference and lie about Kinzo's health... I see it as unlikely that he's a killer simply because it looks a lot like he's kept alive at someone else's convenience. At first it's important to have a doctor on board to verify that those dead bodies are really dead bodies (have you been paid off to do that too, Nanjo?), but later, it's more helpful to spread panic, and people panic more when they have a lack of facts to reason from.
kaitwospirit is offline  
Old 2009-08-31, 07:31   Link #602
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
I think you guys are quite cruel. Battler is trying his best not to suspect anyone, and you want practically everyone to be the culprit XD

Plus I think this thing about Nanjo's grandchild is ridiculous. This is Japan we are talking about, why do you think you need huge amount of money to receive health care for life-threatening conditions? Medical insurance is compulsory and it should cover everything. Not to mention the fact that that child's father is the head of an hospital and should have access to any medical resource available. Plus that child's father seems to have high moral standards, so much that he refused to take 100 million yen. How would he accept any kind of suspicious money?

I place my bet on a single culprit, max 2-3 including accomplices.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2009-08-31, 16:01   Link #603
Kaiba
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Houston
I'm formulating a final theory (well, it's more of a detailed elaboration of Jan-Poo's theory, but whatever) and I have a question over one scene I heard about the fifth episode (as I have not played it yet):

Spoiler for The final scene:



Quote:
Battler wanted Beatrice to have just told him the truth from the beginning instead of setting up all these elaborate games to teach him it.
Truth being what? His sin?
Kaiba is offline  
Old 2009-08-31, 16:05   Link #604
luckyssol
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
I'm formulating a final theory (well, it's more of a detailed elaboration of Jan-Poo's theory, but whatever) and I have a question over one scene I heard about the fifth episode (as I have not played it yet):

Spoiler for The final scene:
Battler wanted Beatrice to have just told him the truth from the beginning instead of setting up all these elaborate games to teach him it.
luckyssol is offline  
Old 2009-08-31, 16:49   Link #605
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
That certainly, but not only that. Because Battler long before realizing everything, he already understood that Beatrice wanted him to find something in a very elaborated way, even though she could tell him directly.

So that reaction can't be justified only by that.

Anyway that "baka yaroo" was directed to "Beatrice", almost certainly.

The truth that he finds out is... everything. According to Lamdadelta Battler understood every single thing of the gameboard already. But I wonder if that's really true °°; He certainly understood everything concerning Beatrice, but did he understand how everything was done?
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2009-08-31, 17:36   Link #606
Marion
The Great Dine
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I think you guys are quite cruel. Battler is trying his best not to suspect anyone, and you want practically everyone to be the culprit XD

Plus I think this thing about Nanjo's grandchild is ridiculous. This is Japan we are talking about, why do you think you need huge amount of money to receive health care for life-threatening conditions? Medical insurance is compulsory and it should cover everything. Not to mention the fact that that child's father is the head of an hospital and should have access to any medical resource available. Plus that child's father seems to have high moral standards, so much that he refused to take 100 million yen. How would he accept any kind of suspicious money?

I place my bet on a single culprit, max 2-3 including accomplices.
Whole thing is the granddaughter had an incurable disease, according to his son and his TIPs in EP 4. She ended up passing away by 1998 and there was no cure. If he could get enough money to fund research for a better treatment and possible cure I'm sure he would. But ya, Nanjo being culprit is too much - accomplice is more likely.

Although I think that we have more possibilities for the 'trap' Ryukishi mentioned.

1) Nanjo. That is we all assume he's an accomplice because he's the doctor - what if he's a red herring all together?

2) Asumu. What if she never actually died? Battler never states how she died exactly - what if Rudolf just told him she had died and refused to let him see the body. This means that Asumu was banged up so badly Battler shouldn't have been allowed to see or that she never died to begin with.
Marion is offline  
Old 2009-08-31, 17:55   Link #607
Volcanic
fire of fires
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Vesuvius
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
2) Asumu. What if she never actually died? Battler never states how she died exactly - what if Rudolf just told him she had died and refused to let him see the body. This means that Asumu was banged up so badly Battler shouldn't have been allowed to see or that she never died to begin with.
Although this might come from watching too much Higurashi, this makes me think: was Asumu's death a main factor, or even a foreshadowing of the Rokkenjima massacre?

Maybe the killer tried to strike six years ago, but failed? Maybe the killer is linked to Asumu? I have a feeling that Asumu is much more important than we think.


Darn, "six years ago" is going to be to Umineko what "three years ago" is to Haruhi...xD
Volcanic is offline  
Old 2009-09-02, 18:53   Link #608
Tjfarmer
I'm almost there!
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Bay Area, California
Age: 30
Send a message via AIM to Tjfarmer
I'm not sure if this is the right place to put this, but does anyone know if the Ep 5 character poll is up yet? I vaguely recalls the others starting a few weeks after the release of their respective games.
Tjfarmer is offline  
Old 2009-09-03, 02:07   Link #609
Used Can
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
No, you can check the polls here:
http://07th-expansion.net/ninnki.htm
__________________
"The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom
Used Can is offline  
Old 2009-09-03, 02:40   Link #610
Kamar
Author Wannabe
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Haha, this one is great. Especially the fact that BattlerXRonove is almost as popular as GeorgeXShannon. And the especially crack-y ones as you get into the lower rankings.
Kamar is offline  
Old 2009-09-03, 05:39   Link #611
chounokoe
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Düsseldorf, Germany
Age: 39
Send a message via MSN to chounokoe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
That certainly, but not only that. Because Battler long before realizing everything, he already understood that Beatrice wanted him to find something in a very elaborated way, even though she could tell him directly.

So that reaction can't be justified only by that.

Anyway that "baka yaroo" was directed to "Beatrice", almost certainly.

The truth that he finds out is... everything. According to Lamdadelta Battler understood every single thing of the gameboard already. But I wonder if that's really true °°; He certainly understood everything concerning Beatrice, but did he understand how everything was done?
I think he really did understand everything, he already understood about Beatrice when she sacrificed herself, which led him to dive into the Ocean of Kakera...as far as I remember...where he understood everything that happened on the gameboard (also indicated by every single game flashing by again).

I really do think that Battler understood not only Beatrice's reason, but especially the futility of her action, regarding what he found out...which may be the reason to call her an idiot.
Maybe he found out, that Beatrice was doing all this not for her, but for a special loved one (Kinzou, Battler...maybe the entire family) and that she could have just told him that.

I don't know how far one can interpret the ending of Episode 5 (Tsubasa), but I think it wasn't played at the end for nothing (at least dai and the other interpreters seem to know some stuff).

Spoiler for For long lyrics and translation:


I know it's not always a good idea to take songs into account when it comes to interpretations, but so far they always seemed to fit, when it came to the When they Cry series'.
So maybe it is important for Battler to 'recollect his crime' and remember his own sin and it is not possible to Beatrice to easily tell him...the purgatory aspect of Umineko is rather high, and while Higurashi was about innocent people toyed around by the wheels of fate, Umineko may be about people burdened with sin who work toward their own demise.
Maybe it was not even the fact the the solution is so simple which drove Battler into doing what he did...maybe he found out that his family IS that horrible and that he finds it unacceptable that Beatrice suffered for people like them.
__________________
愛が無ければ・・・視えない!!
chounokoe is offline  
Old 2009-09-03, 05:41   Link #612
Apathy
does not compute
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Thanks for the poll link. =3 The 'most suspicious person' one is interesting, too. (Also, are the polls official? I don't think I've seen Battler referred to as 'meta Battler' officially before. .____.)

And, as I'm in this thread, thank you to all the people who have been posting summaries/explanations about episode 5. It's much appreciated. 8D Seems like this episode's more confusing than the last one, especially with the boundary between the meta world and the gameboard. ;
Apathy is offline  
Old 2009-09-03, 05:49   Link #613
MeoTwister5
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
BTW sorry I haven't posted the rest of the ??? Tea Party summaries since medical research calls. I should be able to finish the rest by Saturday.
MeoTwister5 is offline  
Old 2009-09-03, 07:15   Link #614
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
I think he really did understand everything, he already understood about Beatrice when she sacrificed herself, which led him to dive into the Ocean of Kakera...as far as I remember...where he understood everything that happened on the gameboard (also indicated by every single game flashing by again).

I really do think that Battler understood not only Beatrice's reason, but especially the futility of her action, regarding what he found out...which may be the reason to call her an idiot.
Maybe he found out, that Beatrice was doing all this not for her, but for a special loved one (Kinzou, Battler...maybe the entire family) and that she could have just told him that.

I don't know how far one can interpret the ending of Episode 5 (Tsubasa), but I think it wasn't played at the end for nothing (at least dai and the other interpreters seem to know some stuff).

Spoiler for For long lyrics and translation:


I know it's not always a good idea to take songs into account when it comes to interpretations, but so far they always seemed to fit, when it came to the When they Cry series'.
So maybe it is important for Battler to 'recollect his crime' and remember his own sin and it is not possible to Beatrice to easily tell him...the purgatory aspect of Umineko is rather high, and while Higurashi was about innocent people toyed around by the wheels of fate, Umineko may be about people burdened with sin who work toward their own demise.
Maybe it was not even the fact the the solution is so simple which drove Battler into doing what he did...maybe he found out that his family IS that horrible and that he finds it unacceptable that Beatrice suffered for people like them.
well I think you are right, if I said that maybe Battler didn't understand everything is because I was being prudent, you never know with this story ^^;

The lyrics of the songs are certainly important, think about "senza amore la verità non si vede" (without love the truth cannot be seen), you can hear it in the very first opening of Ep1 and on ep5 it became a central theme.

I also think the lyrics of "yakusoku" should be examined carefully. Excluding "happy maria" whose lyrics are only there for choreographic purpose, yakusoku is the only singed song that plays in the middle of the game, and it plays in one of the most important scenes of the whole story.

So reading both the lyrics of Tsubasa (hope ver) and Yakusoku, you can understand that the sin is all about a broken promise that was forgotten, but for the other party "never changed" for a long time.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2009-09-03, 08:22   Link #615
Raneh
Storyteller
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by chounokoe
I know it's not always a good idea to take songs into account when it comes to interpretations, but so far they always seemed to fit, when it came to the When they Cry series'.
Well, what I'm going to write isn't exactly in the right topic but since you're talking about it:
In the anime op there are these lines that I was thinking about even before ep5 was out
Quote:
Hatasenai yakusoku wa mune no oku kogetsuite
Akaku akaku hazeteku yo

Something like:
The unfillable promise burns into my heart
And stirs the deep red
Ever since I saw that I was thinking that the massacre is because of a broken promise. The op's lyrics also point out many other things in the series so that supports it.
__________________
Raneh is offline  
Old 2009-09-03, 09:57   Link #616
Evy
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamar View Post
Haha, this one is great. Especially the fact that BattlerXRonove is almost as popular as GeorgeXShannon. And the especially crack-y ones as you get into the lower rankings.
rofl, Satan x Sabakichi? What the hell? (Kumasawa and Gohda don't seem too thrilled about being put together...)
Evy is offline  
Old 2009-09-03, 10:32   Link #617
Volcanic
fire of fires
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Vesuvius
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evy View Post
rofl, Satan x Sabakichi? What the hell? (Kumasawa and Gohda don't seem too thrilled about being put together...)
And we though Stake's Valentine's Day was bad...

Anyway, gonna try to decipher the lyrics of the game OP now.

EDIT: Okay, anime OP.

Spoiler for Long Text thing lol:

Last edited by Volcanic; 2009-09-03 at 11:41.
Volcanic is offline  
Old 2009-09-03, 13:39   Link #618
Marion
The Great Dine
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volcanic View Post
And we though Stake's Valentine's Day was bad...

Anyway, gonna try to decipher the lyrics of the game OP now.

EDIT: Okay, anime OP.

Spoiler for Long Text thing lol:
Good, but yet again do not compare the lyrics to EP 5. The song was written and produced long before EP 5 came out - saying Shikata or whoever wrote the lyrics made it that way to foreshadow to EP 5 is impossible because the game wasn't even out yet.
Marion is offline  
Old 2009-09-03, 13:55   Link #619
Volcanic
fire of fires
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Vesuvius
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Good, but yet again do not compare the lyrics to EP 5. The song was written and produced long before EP 5 came out - saying Shikata or whoever wrote the lyrics made it that way to foreshadow to EP 5 is impossible because the game wasn't even out yet.
That's the only problem, yeah. It could be coincidence. It really is, which is...slightly creepy. If I didn't know better the song could've been a whole EP5 foreshadowing troll song
Volcanic is offline  
Old 2009-09-03, 14:01   Link #620
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Just a note:

Quote:
Are you without sin?
This is not a question, it's a statement: "you are without sin".
Maybe a hint that "Beatrice" isn't the real killer?
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 18:01.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
We use Silk.