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Old 2012-11-02, 08:15   Link #31061
Renall
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The only plausible murder motive in the entire series is Kyrie's motive to kill Asumu, especially if you read between the lines a little bit. Even then, that's so unfathomably specific that it isn't generalizable as a culprit theory; Kyrie's motive is so plausible only because we actually know exactly who she wants to kill and why. If you remove the cause or the victim, there's no more motive.
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Old 2012-11-02, 08:19   Link #31062
RandomAvatarFan
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post

Yup.
The six people were already dead by the time they were discovered!
All were killed by other people!
All six were genuine victims, and did not take part in a mutual murder!
Ah, that's right. I forgot about EP4... yikes...

Honestly, I was just being kind of silly, and quite aware that the Kyrie Motive as presented in EP7 and EP8 was quite weak. Still, it would be interesting to find that there is some sort of loophole in the red that makes it possible for Kyrie to have committed the crimes, considering Bern used it twice against Ange, there must have been *something* to it, other than "Ange is alive and is now the heir to all the Ushiromiya's money."
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Old 2012-11-02, 09:05   Link #31063
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The only plausible murder motive in the entire series is Kyrie's motive to kill Asumu, especially if you read between the lines a little bit. Even then, that's so unfathomably specific that it isn't generalizable as a culprit theory; Kyrie's motive is so plausible only because we actually know exactly who she wants to kill and why. If you remove the cause or the victim, there's no more motive.
Technically, there's also Natsuhi's motive for attempting to murder the baby that's decent enough.

Anyway I think the real problem in Umineko is the huge number of victims with an also high different number of relations with each others who apparently were all supposed to be murdered in the same location and at around the same period, with the culprit having a method to kill them all at the same moment but likely chosing to off them one after the other.

For example, let's assume that things started to go as in EP 7 teaparty and Kyrie wanted all the money for herself. Natsuhi and Krauss died due to an incident, Kyrie then offed Rosa, Hideyoshi and Eva.

First of all she should check if they're really dead and then...

Is there any need to go and kill everyone else personally when you can just use the bomb?
They could say they're in reunion with grandfather, check if there's really a way to Kuwadorian and to another boat, maybe even wait for the telephone line to resume working so they can check if Yasu's credit card really work and when they have checked everything they can turn on the bomb and leave the island.

You don't even have to find an excuse to persuade Battler as they would leave AS PLANNED and after amking sure everything is as they say.

Even better, they check everything before killing Rosa, Eva and Hideyoshi so if Yasu lied they won't be in a mess for no reason at all.

That's the sort of plan I would expect from Assassin-Kyrie, not just a 'let's murder everyone without even knowing if we're being tricked' party.
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Old 2012-11-02, 10:34   Link #31064
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The only plausible murder motive in the entire series is Kyrie's motive to kill Asumu, especially if you read between the lines a little bit. Even then, that's so unfathomably specific that it isn't generalizable as a culprit theory; Kyrie's motive is so plausible only because we actually know exactly who she wants to kill and why. If you remove the cause or the victim, there's no more motive.
There might be another person she could hate, that being Battler.
"Then Asumu-san gave birth to Battler-kun......But I had a miscarriage.
There's something I thought about.What if Asumu-san had been the one to have a miscarriage, and I had been the one to give birth?
Would Rudolf-san have broken off his engagement and married me?
But I couldn't give birth to a child.
So until Asumu, died and until I gave birth to Ange, I cursed Asumu-san and envied her.
Asumu-san should just die.And then I want him to re-marry with me.
In my envy, I kept cursing like that, over and over, until Asumu-san actually died.

I was certain.I was certain that I possessed the power of magic, which had become a curse and killed Asumu-san.

But that did not quell the flames of my envy.Don't tell anyone, allright?Everytime I look at Battler-kun, I remember that woman.And everytime I look at Battler-kun, I think that if my child had been born, he would be the same age.I am still jealous of her, tormented by her.

How could you understand the madness of a woman whose man was stolen from her, and who has burned with envy for 18 years...!!!


Everytime she sees Battler she sees the child of Asumu, the reason her Envy and Madness will never quell, so one way to stop the torment of Asumu even after her death would be to kill him.
Though, she had no chance of doing that, seeing that when Asumu died and herself having married Rudolf, Battler cut his ties to the Family until the year the incidents began.

Or more:
See that Kyrie can mean Holy Lord/God.
7 Sins :
Lust - One would think Sexual Lust but it actually refers to intense desire of something.
Gluttony - Isn't about eating but it actually refers to selfishness.
Greed - Applied to very excessive desire of materialistic posessions but also involves to Betrayal or treason.
Sloth - Isn't about physical laziness but spiritual laziness.Failing to do what one should do.Evil exists because good people fail to act.
Wrath - Of course this involves Madness though its stated that Wrath can lead to Impatience,Revenge,Vigilantism and is often associated with Jealousy.
Envy - While it may seem like it, its not the same as Jealousy.
The envious desire an entity and covet it.
Envy is a desire to deprive others of something you don't have.
Pride - Love for ones self but contempt towards someone else.
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Old 2012-11-02, 10:36   Link #31065
Renall
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Even so, how does a desire to murder Battler spiral out of control like that? Especially since Battler lives, which means that Kyrie must've been really bad at murdering him.

...Actually this is kind of an amazing forgery concept. Kyrie keeps trying to murder Battler and accidentally kills someone else instead and has to cover it up.
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Old 2012-11-02, 11:56   Link #31066
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Even so, how does a desire to murder Battler spiral out of control like that? Especially since Battler lives, which means that Kyrie must've been really bad at murdering him.

...Actually this is kind of an amazing forgery concept. Kyrie keeps trying to murder Battler and accidentally kills someone else instead and has to cover it up.
lol it would be a fun idea!

What if she realized that killing Battler might cause her to lose Rudolf's love?
However making Battler, who loves mystery and that had been holding a grudge against the Ushiromiya the culprit?
He would end in jail and stay away from her family and they would inherit the Ushiromiya money.
Sure, Battler had stopped holding a grudge against the Ushiromiya long ago but how to prove it to the police?

In short she wanted to create an EP 5 situation with Battler in place of Natsuhi... possibly without killing everyone but then things spiralled out of control and...

It could explain Battler/Toya's fear of being the culprit even if he wasn't, why the whole things had to be hidden to Ange, why Kyrie's feelings came to light in the stories (Toya wasn't supposed to know unless he heard it from her) and even Battler's trauma connected to his mother's identity.
Oh and interesting enough in this version Kyrie would have Erika's role... and Erika was dumped by the boy she loved for another woman...
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Old 2012-11-02, 12:48   Link #31067
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Could also make some hay of Yasu's martyr complex as Beatrice: Her love for Battler spurs her to protect him as a counter-agent to Kyrie, to the point that she'd be willing to shoulder the blame for it too in order to protect him from any possible notion of involvement.

I'm not sure there's enough evidence, though... although Kyrie does say some pretty mysterious things in just about every episode.
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Old 2012-11-02, 16:57   Link #31068
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Still I wanted to say this : what kind of motives are you looking for? "Parasites made them do it", "they had a really horrible life", "they're nuts and or/melodramatic" or "they are total jerks".

I'm honestly asking, what kind of motive would be satisfying to you all, because I personally cannot see any really satisfying motive within the realm of mystery.
I don't mean acceptable, I mean something that would satisfy most fans and Will's "heart" thing.
I would accept a motive that makes sense, and is fully supported by previous characterization, clues in the text, and just, the plot itself. I think Will's "heart" thing was directed at mysteries where the puzzle element of a mystery is given more consideration than the human element of it.

I don't think, at all, that the stuff about "heart" means "the culprit must be sympathetic", just ... understandable? I would readily accept "greed" or "revenge" or "crazy love" as motives if they made sense and were supported by the text. There's nothing wrong with, say, greed as a motive ... but you really need to present a situation where killing 17 people in the face can accomplish that. The problem with Yasutrice (even considering just the gameboards) is all you can really make of it is
1. Murder
2. ???
3. PROFIT / MAGIC !

For the same reason, I consider Erika's "motive" for Natsuhi-culprit in EP5 especially worthless and trashy, on almost every talking point. To name something at random, the implication that Natsuhi was sexing up Kinzo was based on NOTHING AT ALL outside of Bern trolling with contrapositives, and Lambda being too amused to call her out on it, or whatever.

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Totally ignoring the part that the Witch in the tale is implied as their mother and when the witch died so she?
Seeing that the mother of Hänsel and Gretel is named as their biological but in other version their stepmother, and being displayed as a schemer that is badly out for money to the point of sacrificing the kids is more than enough reason to look into.
Especially when we have several indications of Kyrie being deep in this, question is just how much.
I'm not ignoring it, I just don't think it's very important. There are many, many different versions of old folk tales like that (don't get me started on the more vulgar tellings of Little Red Riding Hood), and the Grimm Brothers merely collected, and often, altered them to be more acceptable to the readership of their time.

It is interesting that the mother is sometimes their biological mother, and sometimes their stepmother, since Kyrie is a "stepmother" who is, in reality, a biological mother, but I'd consider it a nice bonus, since it's a less consistent detail. I would also say that she was not implied to be the witch, at all, except perhaps metaphorically.

Also, I'm almost certain Ryukishi himself said he named Ange, Kyrie, and Asumu after support spells from Ragnarok Online (woohoo, Full Support Priests for the WIN!). It always amused me (and I guess, him), since you can't cast Kyrie-Eleison and Assumptio on the same target ... well, you can, but one will overwrite the other. And Angelus is a prerequisite spell for learning both.

Also, I'm curious why you think Kyrie, specifically, is far more involved than any of the other adults?


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Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
Scuse me, this is probably cause English isn't my mother language but does the second red mean each one of them was killed by someone else than the other?
Yeah, it definitely could have been worded better (a lot of the Reds can be, honestly). Cao Ni Ma has it right, though, it's supposed to mean that their death was definitely a homicide.

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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
Ah, that's right. I forgot about EP4... yikes...

Honestly, I was just being kind of silly, and quite aware that the Kyrie Motive as presented in EP7 and EP8 was quite weak. Still, it would be interesting to find that there is some sort of loophole in the red that makes it possible for Kyrie to have committed the crimes, considering Bern used it twice against Ange, there must have been *something* to it, other than "Ange is alive and is now the heir to all the Ushiromiya's money."
Weeeellll, we know Rudolf got one of the posthumous vaults full of money ala' Our Confessions ... and there IS that one removed frame from Eva's diary where Kyrie was holding a gun?
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Old 2012-11-02, 19:26   Link #31069
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Could also make some hay of Yasu's martyr complex as Beatrice: Her love for Battler spurs her to protect him as a counter-agent to Kyrie, to the point that she'd be willing to shoulder the blame for it too in order to protect him from any possible notion of involvement.

I'm not sure there's enough evidence, though... although Kyrie does say some pretty mysterious things in just about every episode.
It would match with Ep 3 & 6 where Beato comes to resque Battler (though in EP 3 she was actually tricking him...)... and the fact that Battler disappeared in EP 7. If for some reason Yasu wasn't killed by Kyrie's shoot and got up she could have told Battler to escape.

Well, if we consider the episodes Toya wrote she's pretty suspicious.
In Ep 3 it's implied it was her gun who shoot at Hideyoshi and she was the one who had the plan to drag him there. We're also told she's very good with guns.

In EP 4 she's possibly one of the last survivors and she does a phonecall in which she suggests to Battler he should believe witches so she's evidently a Yasu's accomplice at best. She's also the one who corners Krauss into calling Kinzo.

In Ep 5 first she gets Natsuhi to admit the gold is father's so, if she wants to argue about Battler getting it she should call Kinzo then she's trying to get Natsuhi to admit 'she was the last to see father'. She's also the one that stops Erika from playing detective once during Hideyoshi's murder case.

In Ep 6 she confesses she wanted to kill Asumu and was ready to do it.

In Ep 7 she doesn't do much but Bern guaranteed that Lion would be killed by her (which might mean nothing as Lion technically doesn't exist).

Funny enough, although she finds hard to be civil to Battler, she's someone Battler looks up at, so, even if he hadn't know she was his mother, her betrayal would surely hurt him quite a bit.

And interesting enough it would be much easier for Kyrie than for George to make disappear Battler's letter for Shannon... though this is one of the many things that can't be proved.

However... yes, it's all circumstancial, it's not real evidence...
All we know for sure is that Rudolf was supposed to be Beato's accomplice... which might have given her a chance to use Beato's plan to her own advantage.

Though Beato could have hired more than one sibling so even this means little...
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Old 2012-11-02, 20:57   Link #31070
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Kyrie is very easy to make out as the culprit except for EP2, where it's pretty hard to get her out of the chapel. But, yes, she's a sensible suspect for EP3 and EP4. And EP1 could be pretty much anyone (although Kanon being the most likely).

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Also, I'm almost certain Ryukishi himself said he named Ange, Kyrie, and Asumu after support spells from Ragnarok Online (woohoo, Full Support Priests for the WIN!). It always amused me (and I guess, him), since you can't cast Kyrie-Eleison and Assumptio on the same target ... well, you can, but one will overwrite the other. And Angelus is a prerequisite spell for learning both.
Ahahahahahaha! I've played quite a lot of RO and hadn't realized this! Ryukishi is so silly sometimes.

It's also funny because Angelus is a crappy, useless spell.

And yeah, FS priests FTW.
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Old 2012-11-03, 13:12   Link #31071
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So if I get this right, the general idea seems to be that people wanted "a reason" to murder. Not necessarily a good one, but one that doesn't entirely goes against the characterisation we've been given of a given character.

Something like plenty of people probably might have a reason to kill x other person, but the whole family? That's insane right? But that's also more or less what I'm wondering. Is it possible that the murders we've seen, as let's say depicted in arc 1, could lead to something that really made a whole lot of sense?

Ironically it seems to be the main problem with Shkanon theory as well. It's hard to pull off, but not entirely impossible, however what is hard to imagine is "why". Why would you begin to do that?

Still in the end it only seems to make certain that we're missing on the heart entirely.

I'd say oddly enough if Kinzo was somehow still alive it would suit him sorta. Sure he might not always be a jerk, but he has mood swings, and is closing in death, and his family are only talking about how to better chew up his bones. Not to mention being quite drunk it seems most of the time. Ironic in that we were presented with a very believable culprit right from arc 1.


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Could also make some hay of Yasu's martyr complex as Beatrice: Her love for Battler spurs her to protect him as a counter-agent to Kyrie, to the point that she'd be willing to shoulder the blame for it too in order to protect him from any possible notion of involvement.

I'm not sure there's enough evidence, though... although Kyrie does say some pretty mysterious things in just about every episode.
Perhaps not Kyrie, but generally speaking that idea seems to be emerging. Yasu could be taking the blame for someone else.
Still the Kyrie idea has the merit of explaining the pertinence of Yasu knowing about Battler's real mother.


Sorta random too but I was thinking that the scene where George asks Yasu for an answer by tomorrow might more or less refers to the general idea behind Yasu and Battler's return. By the time the weekend ends, she'll have in a way or another her answer from Battler. I'm thinking tho she wasn't necessarily going to reveal any of the secrets of the island, she also didn't have any reasons to continue pursuing them further then this weekend. What does this have to do with murders? I don't know, but at the very least it seems like a start in explaining the role of Battler's return. I can more or less see a trail from there that goes to George learning that Yasu still loves Battler and bad things happening afterward, but I guess it still doesn't explain the weird witch like mass murders.

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2012-11-03 at 13:29.
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Old 2012-11-03, 13:54   Link #31072
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And interesting enough it would be much easier for Kyrie than for George to make disappear Battler's letter for Shannon... though this is one of the many things that can't be proved.
On the other hand, her motive for doing so is weak.

For another, how did she know anything about what kind of relationship Battler and Shannon might have had; she'd never seen them together. (Kyrie must have thought that Battler wasn't making any other contact with Shannon and that he had no plans of doing so, other than that letter; otherwise, stealing that one letter would be pointless. He'd deliberately turned down the opportunity to go to Rokkenjima (see Shannon) that year. Breaking up a relationship that had been cold for three years, that had no direct likelihood of restarting on its own, and that she had no good reason to believe had existed in the first place, doesn't seem terribly difficult.)
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Old 2012-11-03, 14:50   Link #31073
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I think another problem is the lack of description about the 'death of a personality' until around EP6 (and even so, this is through meta-allegory). In general, you can twist this around to create any kind of cheap mystery.

"Oh, the personality didn't die, it was just hiding."
"The personality died but then came back."
"The personality went to Hawaii but once Kanon entered the room, it came back."
"Erika is dead, but Shannon and Kanon count as people but one human, but Kinzo doesn't because he's dead, and possibly Eva and Eva-Beatrice are different people too."

Another complaint I hear (not mine) is that Ryukishi marketed this as a mystery, but in reality, you couldn't really even possibly solve it without examining the themes of the story. All that stuff with the red couldn't be solvable without knowing about Shkanon. I think THIS is the point of "without love, it cannot be seen" and Willard's fixation on the heart in EP7. This is not the logic puzzle we thought it was; you had to be able to discern the motive and the secret of Shkanon before you could even do any effective reasoning.

Instead of:
"It's possible to discover personality death through the red truth."
It is:
"Multiple personalities are a recurring theme in Umineko, I wonder how they hold up against the red truth?"

If I remember correctly, Shkanon started because "lol they're both servants" and it just happened that they never appeared at the same time. In retrospect, I think the "red truth" is just a way to check if you came across the correct answer. Not necessarily a method to begin reasoning with.
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Old 2012-11-03, 15:32   Link #31074
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack
If I remember correctly, Shkanon started because "lol they're both servants" and it just happened that they never appeared at the same time. In retrospect, I think the "red truth" is just a way to check if you came across the correct answer. Not necessarily a method to begin reasoning with.
All in all you could argue that the most of the red in EP2-4 was just a distraction, a... 'red herring' ... I'm sorry, in terms of finding the culprit - then again originally it was created as a rule back when Battler only cared about the how-(a human could've)-dunnit so that was never the goal anyway.

It seemed to work quite well in distracting from the narrative and the hints contained therein (if not hints for Yasu, at least hints towards Shannon), considering Erika's existence.
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Old 2012-11-03, 15:42   Link #31075
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Yeah, I agree with that. EP7 makes it pretty clear, really; the red truth was NEVER meant to be the primary reasoning device, and that's the biggest flaw in KnownNoMore's analysis, because it seems to be literally the only thing he uses to reason, "the highest authority in the story" by his own words. When in fact, Battler arrived at the truth by rereading the WHOLE tale, not just by comparing a list of reds against each other and ignoring all the white text as unreliable.

In other words, it's just like EP7 keeps saying; you can't solve the how dunnit without first solving the why dunnit. Or to put it another way, the why dunnit - the heart of the culprit - is the most important thing. The method is only secondary to that; something to fit together after you've already discovered the important part of the answer.
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Old 2012-11-03, 16:01   Link #31076
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Though the thought that Yasu herself is a red herring (out of her own volition) for Kyrie is interesting, it at least avoids the problem that Rosatrice has with, you know, the question as to why Chiru even exists in the first place if it's just a huge troll, which wouldn't just discredit the story but Ryukishi as a writer.

Sadly there is the Chapel-Twilight. Unless there is some weird hint that Kyrie dressed up as, say, Rosa (thus the real Rosa would do her best at cosplaying Kyrie at the "halloween party") that one seems quite impossible. But it would still play the same old game of "unconfirmed identities" from the cousin's room in EP6, the identites of the "six" are never stated, just that they're dead.
Additionally, even if there are hints for Kyrie's cosplay as the best mum ever (though she's a good contender for that title anyway), it'd be still ridiculous/very unlikely since all the following red from EP2 talks about Rosa.

Totally (non)serious solution: Or is Rosa a title that belongs to the best mum ever? Finally that red (or was it just a blue that wasn't denied because Beato wasn't really in the mood?) from EP4 really means something! Kyrie earned herself the title of best mum ever in EP2 and is henceforth known as "Rosa".

... wouldn't put it past Ryukishi.

Last edited by qno2; 2012-11-03 at 16:39.
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Old 2012-11-03, 18:25   Link #31077
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On the other hand, her motive for doing so is weak.

For another, how did she know anything about what kind of relationship Battler and Shannon might have had; she'd never seen them together. (Kyrie must have thought that Battler wasn't making any other contact with Shannon and that he had no plans of doing so, other than that letter; otherwise, stealing that one letter would be pointless. He'd deliberately turned down the opportunity to go to Rokkenjima (see Shannon) that year. Breaking up a relationship that had been cold for three years, that had no direct likelihood of restarting on its own, and that she had no good reason to believe had existed in the first place, doesn't seem terribly difficult.)
Battler and Kyrie knew prior to his mother's dead and he considered her a cool person. It's entirely possible he told her/let her understand that on Rokkenjima there was a girl he felt an affinity with prior to Asumu's death.
On Rokkenjima there were many maids but it's implied they're usually older than what Yasu was so it's not really difficult to guess Yasu might be that girl. Just to be sure Kyrie could ask her from how long she was working for the Ushiromiya.
Although no one seems to notice it, Shannon always gets interested when Battler is mentioned and also tries to get info about him, which is something Kyrie might have noticed.

We don't know if Battler placed all the letters in the big envelope or if this was something she did to carry them more confortably so she could have seen to whom they were addressed and, if Battler wrote to Shannon, she would be the only one that's not a cousin to whom Battler would have written. Kyrie specifically said she suggested him to write to his cousins (funny enough there was also a letter for Ange who's not a cousin and that Battler could meet out of Rokkenjima). It could be hard to miss it, even if Kyrie wasn't informed beforehand.

Sure, Battler might have waved it out saying 'she's just a friend' but Kyrie might not have bought it and anyway... (even George realized Battler had been interested in Shannon when he was a kid) just to be sure she could always open the letter and check the content. Then, if it was nothing suspicious, she can put it in another envelope, claiming the original envelope got damaged, maybe by little Ange, and hand it to Shannon.

Now we know Kyrie still holds a grudge against Asumu and that, by default, she transferred it on Battler as well. Why not to ruin Battler's love story as payback to Asumu?

If the whole thing about the missing letter were to be discovered Kyrie could always claim she didn't remember about that letter so she either lost it before placing it in the envelope or that she neither received it from Battler so he's the one who lost it somewhere.

As Battler doesn't seem the type to suspect she might hold a grudge against his mother and him why should he doubt her?

This could have also an interesting chain reaction. If Battler believed he sent a letter to Shannon and never received an answer, from his point of view he would be the one who'd been 'rejected' and so he would assume Shannon didn't take seriously his words and do his best to forget the whole promise and everything connected to it.

Theorically this might have been represented by EP 6, where Battler is cold with Beato, whom he wanted to see again quite a lot because she 'forgot' and he's trying to make her remember again with a mystery game he's apparently playing with someone else.

Of course it's all speculation. We never had Battler's side about what happened in those three years. All we know is that he really had feelings for Shannon but believed he said something stupid when he promised her to take her away on a white horse and that actually he wasn't all that happy it was George who got her... though he usually is supportive of the two.

He labelled his memory of the white horse thing as 'bittersweet' not just as embarassing, and if my poor English doesn't fail me, this implies that was some sadness laced to that memory.

Note also that Battler doesn't have a girlfriend despite being really popular but that after seeing Shannon is with George he considers searching one for himself, that he seems to be the faithful type (he depised his father for cheating, he praised over Natsuhi's love purity), that he notices pretty fast that there's something going between Shannon and George, a sign he was actually paying her attention and that as he realized those two are a couple he claims he only wasted those 6 years he spent away from Rokkenjima. He also regret not returning there sooner.

He also said something interesting:

Quote:
Women are creatures who always ask questions, and yet, they almost never answer them. What cruel creatures, seriously.
that makes me wonder... when did he question a woman and she refused to answer?

But all this really isn't enough to assume that there was a letter to begin with so it can't help us to figure out where it ended.

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Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
Though the thought that Yasu herself is a red herring (out of her own volition) for Kyrie is interesting, it at least avoids the problem that Rosatrice has with, you know, the question as to why Chiru even exists in the first place if it's just a huge troll, which wouldn't just discredit the story but Ryukishi as a writer.
I've hard time thinking Shannon tried to cover up for Kyrie.

First because it would change her motive for writing the tales which should have been trying to have HER mystery solved by someone and HER heart reached or make it not the sole motive.

Second, it failed spectacularily as the rumors about the Rokkenjima incident not being an incident and the interest of the witch hunters for it were caused by her messages in the bottles. Before it seems people was more prone to accept the police's theory it was an incident. In short she raised more suspicions instead than decreasing them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
Sadly there is the Chapel-Twilight. Unless there is some weird hint that Kyrie dressed up as, say, Rosa (thus the real Rosa would do her best at cosplaying Kyrie at the "halloween party") that one seems quite impossible. But it would still play the same old game of "unconfirmed identities" from the cousin's room in EP6, the identites of the "six" are never stated, just that they're dead.
Additionally, even if there are hints for Kyrie's cosplay as the best mum ever (though she's a good contender for that title anyway), it'd be still ridiculous/very unlikely since all the following red from EP2 talks about Rosa.
The interesting part is that the episodes in which Kyrie is suspicious are the ones written by Battler/Toya and not the previous two who were supposedly written by Yasu. So, if Yasu wrote her episodes trying to get the focus on her, Toya might have copied her scheme to write her own but added to them his memories, unconsciously writing in them a suspicious Kyrie.
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Old 2012-11-03, 18:59   Link #31078
qno2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiblue1
I've hard time thinking Shannon tried to cover up for Kyrie.

First because it would change her motive for writing the tales which should have been trying to have HER mystery solved by someone and HER heart reached or make it not the sole motive.

Second, it failed spectacularily as the rumors about the Rokkenjima incident not being an incident and the interest of the witch hunters for it were caused by her messages in the bottles. Before it seems people was more prone to accept the police's theory it was an incident. In short she raised more suspicions instead than decreasing them.
Don't believe into it myself but it's an interesting theory.

Though I'm more talking about Meta-Beato (depending on how you look at that matter = Itsuko/post-1986-Yasu) covering up than Author-Yasu. From the illusion of the witch to Shkanon basically. Doesn't mean that this line of thought can ignore the first two episodes though, since we received the red from Meta-Beato, not the author.
The original author would still keep her original intent.

Yup, didn't really express myself well in my last post, sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jiblue1
Second, it failed spectacularily as the rumors about the Rokkenjima incident not being an incident and the interest of the witch hunters for it were caused by her messages in the bottles. Before it seems people was more prone to accept the police's theory it was an incident. In short she raised more suspicions instead than decreasing them.
Wouldn't really speak against the Witch/Shkanon hiding the truth from Battler and Ange actually, since all the speculation still spoke about the "Witch Serial Murder", not "White-Haired Demon Murder".


Personally I never saw a point in author-Yasu throwing out her stories anyway, regardless of whether she planned a murder game, an actual mass murder (actually, there it could have a purpose: "to keep them alive for all eternity in stories" ... yeah) or nothing at all, so I generally don't believe they served any real purpose - it was an emotional act. "Ah, just like in 'And then there were none'. Maybe someone will someday find them and discover my twisted and confused heart. Tell me, dear reader I will never know, what path should I take? I will be too late however. So please, just understand me." Which would imply that the whole incident wasn't really anything she planned, all just a weird accident and coincidence as it tends to happen in stories.
If she wants to be understood, why did she try everything in her might to hide herself? Good question, Dlanor's little speech at the end of Our Confessions might relate to it (about how Beatrice claims that "if only 1 in a 1000 can understand me that is enough").

BUUUT I think you folks probably discussed the original author extensively so let's not start this anew, let's force the "Prime-Kyrie-culprit with Meta-Beato covering her for the sake of both Battler and Ange" Theory into the story!
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Old 2012-11-03, 19:12   Link #31079
Kiltias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
Though the thought that Yasu herself is a red herring (out of her own volition) for Kyrie is interesting, it at least avoids the problem that Rosatrice has with, you know, the question as to why Chiru even exists in the first place if it's just a huge troll, which wouldn't just discredit the story but Ryukishi as a writer.

Sadly there is the Chapel-Twilight. Unless there is some weird hint that Kyrie dressed up as, say, Rosa (thus the real Rosa would do her best at cosplaying Kyrie at the "halloween party") that one seems quite impossible. But it would still play the same old game of "unconfirmed identities" from the cousin's room in EP6, the identites of the "six" are never stated, just that they're dead.
Additionally, even if there are hints for Kyrie's cosplay as the best mum ever (though she's a good contender for that title anyway), it'd be still ridiculous/very unlikely since all the following red from EP2 talks about Rosa.

Totally (non)serious solution: Or is Rosa a title that belongs to the best mum ever? Finally that red (or was it just a blue that wasn't denied because Beato wasn't really in the mood?) from EP4 really means something! Kyrie earned herself the title of best mum ever in EP2 and is henceforth known as "Rosa".

... wouldn't put it past Ryukishi.
Wasn't it that not a single name was mentioned in regards to EP2s 1st Twilight?
Six people definitely entered through 'this front door'
The six people were already dead by the time they were discovered!

All were killed by other people!
All six were genuine victims, and did not take part in a mutual murder!



But here's the deal:
Lets look back at some events.
Who are the ones that knew about the "Guest"?
Rosa,Kyrie,Shannon,Kanon,Gohda and Genji.
I like to point something out.
Kyrie was the one who blurted out about the guest that appearantly those 6 only saw.
It resulted in a (bleep)storm just when dinner was served.
Kyrie told Gohda to ask Genji about this (despite she saw him with her, unless that was Anime only) and Nanjo left with him for no real reason given.
Natsuhi told Nanjo to take the kids along.
But who are left behind:
The ones in the chapel.
I note:
Just when dinner was served.
But remember this:
Jessica in the next morning was coughing wildly (appearantly due to her weak bronchi and the situation being too much).


Jessica ate from the food served while those who remained behind were found dead with "sweets in their intestines" and the room looked like a Banquet.

Who are the ones that entered the chapel?
Rosa,Shannon,Kanon,Genji,Gohda and Nanjo thus the red could actually refer to them entering it.

You know if it wouldn't be for:
"All were killed" one could argue that.
Even with Kyrie alive there can be 6 dead people in the chapel and 6 being dead when discovered.
As in:
The 6th Person dead in the chapel being Kinzo, not among the 6 at the table but the chapel being his resting/hiding place in EP 2.
Afterall EP 2 has him "survive" until the bomb goes up.
While in EP 1 he is roasted, faked to be a victim of the murders.
In EP 3 hs is faked as well and god knows what happened in EP 4.
Meaning that Kinzo was truly dead,not used as a fake victim but simply rested or was hidden.
Didn't Kyrie mention something about Kinzo being dead in EP 4?

You should even see that Gohda,Nanjo and Kanon (Don't ask me how seeing that Shannon left with Genji) tried to halt the "Children" from getting to the victims.

Or how did Kinzo die again?

Quote:
Even so, how does a desire to murder Battler spiral out of control like that? Especially since Battler lives, which means that Kyrie must've been really bad at murdering him.[

The Gold.
One could also argue that Kyrie attempted to simply torture him by killing off everyone first saving him for last.
I believe EP 2 even mentions something about breaking,torturing and tormenting Battler in the game results.


Quote:
Well, if we consider the episodes Toya wrote she's pretty suspicious.
In Ep 3 it's implied it was her gun who shoot at Hideyoshi and she was the one who had the plan to drag him there. We're also told she's very good with guns.
If I think about it, it's pretty clever if she used Eva as a backup plan to killer Battler.
Kyrie being the killer would give Eva plenty of reasons to kill him.
Especially when the duel of her and Rudolf against the stakes can be seen or interpreted as having murdered Rosa and Maria.
Only 5 stakes were used in EP 3, only ones that weren't were Belphegor and Leviathan.Deaths of Maria and Rosa are what caused an irregularity starting the stakings with the 9th victim instead of the 7th/8th.
Yes one could argue "Nowhere does it say the 7th and 8th need to be staked", then again I point to that completely contradicting the existance of 7 stakes or the MO of the first 2.
As I said before:
Seeing it that way means that killing Rosa and Maria = Killing Leviathan and Belphegor = no 6th or 7th stakings.

How would you react in Evas position?

Last edited by Kiltias; 2012-11-03 at 19:31.
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Old 2012-11-03, 19:22   Link #31080
qno2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
Wasn't it that not a single name was mentioned in regards to EP2s 1st Twilight?
Six people definitely entered through 'this front door'
The six people were already dead by the time they were discovered!

All were killed by other people!
All six were genuine victims, and did not take part in a mutual murder!
That was my point with unconfirmed identities, yes. In the same way that Erika didn't exclusively demand to know who's in the cousin's room, and was satisfied with "everyone else".


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
Even with Kyrie alive there can be 6 dead people in the chapel and 6 being dead when discovered.
As in:
The 6th Person dead in the chapel being Kinzo, not among the 6 at the table but the chapel being his resting/hiding place in EP 2.
You beat me to this one. I was just about to go to bed (european here) when this realisation struck me, causing me to reboot my PC... didn't see the whole deal about the food however, good catch.

Of course no one is hiding because Kyrie is in plain sight. Though having Kinzo's body move over to the chapel is very unusual without a meta-reason but oh well...


Guess we're well on our way to create a new theory besides Shkanon and Rosatrice. Though I wonder how many adults could now count as culprits throughout the first four episodes, now that the 1st twilight of EP2 leaves room for one...

Last edited by qno2; 2012-11-03 at 19:34.
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