Shin Sekai Yori - Episode 25 [End] Discussion / Poll

[Trajan]

First, thanks for the compliment Eragon; it is nice to have an anime that raises some interesting issues and makes you think. That seems to be getting rarer these days.

Dawnstorm, I agree with you that from my point of view, the human-queerat relationship is more akin to feudalism than slavery. I have been referring to the queerats as slaves because they view themselves as such. Of course, in both a feudal and slave society the lords/masters could never kill off all the serfs/slaves because then no one would be left to work the fields/serve as a tax base for them, which goes along with my belief that the humans simply cannot exterminate all queerats without destroying their human society.

Spoiler for human stupidity:

The Exospecies Department is terrible at its job. Saki and the others seem to have no clue about the power structure and political developments within the colonies, and they apparently have not passed on information regarding the emergence of a democratic movement to the Ethics Committee and others, since Squealer has to explain the difference between the two groups to Tomiko, et al.

This goes to my larger theory that by suppressing both creativity and aggression, the humans have actually created an idiocracy of sorts full of individuals who are unable to think critically or strategically; one of the major underlying reasons why the queerat plan could come so close to victory and also why Saki, the least hypnotized, can still not fully accept queerats as equals or near-equals.

However Dawnstorm, I viewed the trial not so much as a recognition that Squealer had any rights but as simply arena in which he could be put on display (naked!), laughed at, and public pronouncement of his punishment announced. It was more for the humans, to give them an opportunity to regain their feeling of superiority ("look at that naked little thing!" "he was a threat to us?") than a recognition that Squealer could not be killed without first being tried.

Spoiler for Squealer-Prometheus?:

Interestingly, I viewed Squealer's punishment as closely echoing that of Prometheus. For those that don't know, Prometheus was a titan in Greek mythology who stole fire from the gods and gave it to the humans, allowing for technological progress and the creation of civilization. As punishment, he was to be chained to a rock for all eternity, his liver eaten by birds during the day and regenerating at night so the punishment could continue for all eternity. Doubt the author intended this comparison, but interesting nonetheless.

You also raise an interesting point about Squealer's obligation to those queerats who may have voted against rebellion (let's assume there was a vote). Squealer knows if he loses that the entire colony will be destroyed, including those who voted against his plan. If he truly believes in the rights of each individual ("irreplaceable existences" he calls them), then at what point is he obligated not to rebel in order to respect their rights and desires to live? Difficult question to answer.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

Look at Saki's actions near the end: she wasn't willing to sacrifice Satoru to get rid of the fiend. Kiroumaru? Fair game. Not ideal, but, well...

What motivates you? What risks are you willing to take? What sort of conscience bothers you? Imagine the conversation:

Saki: Um, I wasted the psychobuster to save Satoru. Sorry about that.
Kiroumaru: What's done is done. No point playing the blame game.
Saki: I'm glad you say that, because... um... I have this plan.
Kiroumaru: ...
Saki: *explains plan*
Kiroumaru: ... [Me and my big mouth!]

LOL, actually, watching that scene, I thought it should go more like this:
Saki: I have this plan. *explains plan*
Kiroumaru: But if she can't hurt me why don't you guys just take out the guards and then I will run up to her and bash her head in with a rock? She's only like 10.
Saki: But that's not epic enough, we need to see her face when she realizes what she has done! Plus you owe me, I found you chained in a dungeon.
Kiroumaru: But what if she blasts me into a million little pieces or burns me to bones, like she did for 99.99% of her other victims? How's she going to know I'm a queerat then?
Saki: . . .
Kiroumaru: How are you people the master race?

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Remember Squealer did not just kill the PK users.

My thinking on this is that Squealer realized he had to first eliminate the queerat colonies that refused to rebel before he could assault the humans, otherwise he would be fighting a two-front war against both the humans and Kiroumaru's alliance at the same time. Squealer did not have the resources to attack both Kiroumaru and the humans simultaneously, and if he attacked the humans first, they surely would have ordered Kiroumaru's alliance to war ASAP. Another benefit to Squealer is that by fighting a sanctioned war first, he was able to build up his military capabilities and capacity in full view of the humans without them becoming suspicious. Interesting thing is that even though Squealer destroyed Kiroumaru's colony over a week before he attacked the humans, he did not kill their queen. If he were as genocidal as the humans, why leave her alive?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

4. There is one important plot point/world-building issue that I'm a bit unclear on. And I'd love to hear other viewer's thoughts on this. Both Squealer and Kiroumaru raised the complaint of the SSY humans being dangerously capricious. That they could order the elimination of Bakenezumi tribes on the slightest whim. To what degree is this complaint valid? From what I can recall, the narrative (at least in the anime) never spent a great deal of time on this.

For me, this plays a significant role in how I view the human/bakenezumi relationship in SSY. The more capricious the humans are, the more justified the bakenezumi are, imo. However, the less capricious the humans are, the more defensible the status qou becomes.

This is, I think, impossible to answer as an anime-only viewer. The best answer I can give you is that Saki never rejects either Kiroumaru's or Squealer's contention that humans have eliminated queerat colonies in the past, so I assume that it has happened, and with at least some frequency ("only for the worst offenses" is what Saki says).

Also, we know that Kiroumaru traveled to Tokyo to seek WMD protection, a dangerous mission to be sure, so I think he must have felt the threat of extinction was real. And if you don't believe that Squealer somehow tricked his alliance into fighting, it's safe to assume that the queerats in his alliance had a legitimate fear that they would be wiped out, which influenced their decision to rebel.

Really, as much as I enjoyed this story, there is a certain limitation by confining it to Saki's perspective. We only have small clues about whether Squealer as a true liberator or not. We really don't know how the queerat democracy functions.

[Kirarakim]

Trajan I just watched the rewatched the episode

Originally Posted by Trajan

which goes along with my belief that the humans simply cannot exterminate all queerats without destroying their human society.

Saki explicitly states she has to reverse the decision to exterminate all the Rat societies. So the plan was to kill all the monster rats until Saki stepped in on their behalf.

This is, I think, impossible to answer as an anime-only viewer. The best answer I can give you is that Saki never rejects either Kiroumaru's or Squealer's contention that humans have eliminated queerat colonies in the past, so I assume that it has happened, and with at least some frequency ("only for the worst offenses" is what Saki says).

She does actually (at least to Squealer). She says monster rats are only killed for the worst offense- Rebellion and killing humans.

But the point I think is that doesn't matter. The monster rats are always at the mercy of the PK users whims. So they don't find a reason to kill them today what about tomorrow? It's not like the monster rats can say we will kill humans if they kill us.

Edit: I also re-watched the scene when they were talking about the non-PK users being turned into monster rats. Satoru has a few points

* The scientists created death feedback to control the society from killing each other (this we knew from before)
* PK users had ruled over non-PK users in the past but with death feedback the roles would be reversed and the PK users would be powerless against non-PK users

* The scientists were PK users and did not want to lose their privileged status. Could the scientists have gotten rid of PK instead? After this statement I think it actually is possible (although it is not explicitly stated). But they liked their power and didn't want to give it up.

All of this of course happened centuries before our story started.

Saki then says we killed so many humans...but when Satoru says "no they are not human" I think he doesn't want her to even begin to think that because of what it would mean in terms of the death of shame.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

* The scientists were PK users and did not want to lose their privileged status. Could the scientists have gotten rid of PK instead? After this statement I think it actually is possible (although it is not explicitly stated). But they liked their power and didn't want to give it up.

Not quite - it's not their power (as in PK) that they liked, per se, but the position they held over "normal" humans. That is what they didn't want to give up.

(Btw, in the book Satoru says this as a reply to Saki asking why didn't they just add the same controls to non-PK humans. And he replies that there were two reasons, one is that they wanted to keep their privileged position, and two since the death mechanism is inherently tied to PK it wouldn't have worked anyway.)

AFAIK we never get an explanation as to what this "psychokinesis" is, where it comes from and how it works, only the rather wild theories that 14 year old Satoru mentions in the snow hut. (Quantum theory, stars... btw, my money is on the quantum theory approach.) According to the fake minoshiro it was originally believed that PK was a manifestation of energy gained from decomposing sugar in the brain (don't ask, I'm no biologist ) but that proved to be wrong. So in their times it appears they still have no idea whatsoever what causes it and why, which means even if they wanted to get rid of it, they wouldn't know how. (I guess they could collectively lobotomize themselves...)

Originally Posted by Trajan

Kiroumaru: But if she can't hurt me why don't you guys just take out the guards and then I will run up to her and bash her head in with a rock? She's only like 10.

Because the guards are wisely hiding wherever Squealer is also hiding? Or perhaps because the moment the humans step out of their hiding place the kid kills them? It's not like Squealer went there with only a handful of soldiers.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

According to the fake minoshiro it was originally believed that PK was a manifestation of energy gained from decomposing sugar in the brain (don't ask, I'm no biologist ) but that proved to be wrong.

If I recall, I think they were just talking about regular cellular respiration.

[Trajan]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Because the guards are wisely hiding wherever Squealer is also hiding? Or perhaps because the moment the humans step out of their hiding place the kid kills them? It's not like Squealer went there with only a handful of soldiers.

Well, I'd dispute that there is some praetorian guard hiding somewhere, since they don't show up when Squealer comes out to the Messiah's body. They just let Saki stand around in the open for a few minutes and then capture their leader without acting? Bad praetorian guard! Bad!

But even accepting that there is some praetorian guard hiding in the shadows (that Kiroumaru could never smell), that still doesn't address the fact that it was almost a certainty Kiroumaru would be killed instantly and in a manner that left him unrecognizable. So it's still a silly plan.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Haak

If I recall, I think they were just talking about regular cellular respiration.

Maybe. I probably didn't even use the correct words above, so. (My brain is completely fried today.) In any case, it's definitely wrong. Re-reading the relevant section now (and actually paying attention - my mind tends to switch to autopilot when I see pseudo-scientific babble ), my money is even more on the quantum mechanics/observer effect theory, which would make it pretty much impossible to "remove" from humans.

Originally Posted by Trajan

Well, I'd dispute that there is some praetorian guard hiding somewhere, since they don't show up when Squealer comes out to the Messiah's body. They just let Saki stand around in the open for a few minutes and then capture their leader without acting? Bad praetorian guard! Bad!

......you do realize you're just splitting hairs now, right?

Originally Posted by Trajan

But even accepting that there is some praetorian guard hiding in the shadows (that Kiroumaru could never smell), that still doesn't address the fact that it was almost a certainty Kiroumaru would be killed instantly and in a manner that left him unrecognizable. So it's still a silly plan.

Uh, and your basis for this is...? The kid didn't blast everyone into a million pieces, and even if she tried to burn him it's not like he would've been reduced into a pile of ashes in a second. The point of the plan was to create a momentary confusion, have the child react on instinct, and then bam, do the revelation. Even if she blew off Kiroumaru's head, a second look would've confirmed that the body was that of a bakenezumi and not of a human.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Not quite - it's not their power (as in PK) that they liked, per se, but the position they held over "normal" humans. That is what they didn't want to give up.

Ah my mistake then, thank you for the clarification.

I did realize death feedback was tied to PK but thinking about it I am not sure if I got that from the series are the message board.

Of course I also don't think Saki's village can be held responsible for the decisions of the scientists (which happened centuries ago). For better or worse they are affected by those decisions too.

[Trajan]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Uh, and your basis for this is...? The kid didn't blast everyone into a million pieces, and even if she tried to burn him it's not like he would've been reduced into a pile of ashes in a second. The point of the plan was to create a momentary confusion, have the child react on instinct, and then bam, do the revelation. Even if she blew off Kiroumaru's head, a second look would've confirmed that the body was that of a bakenezumi and not of a human.

This really isn't worth having an extended discussion over, but since you asked for my basis . . .

From Episode 21, first pic is from 3:43, second is from 3:46. Total of six humans burned to nothing, each in less than a second:

Spoiler for weenie roast (click through to see timestamps):

And the reaction shot we get is this, implying that Saki witnessed this with her own eyes:

We also have the four Wildlife Officers, as witnessed by Inui and related to Saki. From Episode 21, first pic from 16:58, second pic from 17:00

Spoiler for the boy band breaks up (click through to see timestamps):

If it's not clear what just happened, the akki basically shredded the four Wildlife Officers into nothing (no blood) in a little over a second.

There's also the hospital deaths, which take place in a similar manner. So you're right, Kiroumaru might not have been reduced to ash in a second, he may have been reduced to nothing in a fraction of the time! Shisei is a notable exception, but perhaps the akki was told to leave a body, so it could be used as psychological warfare against the humans (hanging it from the holy barrier).

Now, I'm not saying Saki's plan couldn't have worked (it obviously did), but she basically hit on 20 hoping for an ace. It's a stupid play, but it does occasionally work.

[Dawnstorm]

Too much text. I'm going to reply very selectively, so I won't feel overwhelmed with the need to reply. If I don't address a point it's not because I'm not interested. It's because I want to do other things, too.

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I was being a bit facetious. I don't think the real theme is we just don't want PK.

I know. I can get carried away when I'm "in the zone".

Saki's motivations were purely selfish there but I think those were selfish motivations we could understand and appreciate. She wasn't thinking about the community but someone she individually loved and didn't want to lose.

Exactly. And who's closer to you than "your own"? Here, in effect, Kiroumaru died, because Saki saved Satoru. Saki's actions are certainly understandable, and it's not like she intended to make the switch. A lot of little decisions like that, though, and you see where this leads?

History is a string of unintended consequences.

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

On reflection, I think it naive to suppose equality can be predicated upon sentience. We routinely deny equality to children, for instance; likewise, criminals, and in very recent times women, blacks, gays etc. Equality rests instead upon force, the fact that your fellow is your equal in the capacity for violence. In this case, there can be no social equality between the humans and the queerats, for the biological reasons you point to.

Isn't it that realisation (whether it's true or not) that drives Squealer? (The Hume quote is *very* fitting, heh.)

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

It was a summary of her state of mind in that time, though. What she wonders about in that scene are questions she knows the answers to by the end of the story. She thinks bakenezumi were genetically engineered out of naked mole rats, and wonders why her ancestors used such revolting animals. By the end of the story she knows that the bakenezumi were engineered out of humans with some naked mole rat genes, and the reason for using naked mole rats and making the end result look so revolting was to remove even the slightest possibility of humans developing any positive feelings for the bakenezumi.

You've convinced me. It just makes more sense this way.

I didn't mean their intelligence, though. They don't look like humans, they look very different from us. (And, at least at the start of the story, they live a very different life than the humans.) If chimps developed human level intelligence, would people automatically consider them human? Would we refer to them as "humans" or even "new humans" or something like that? I think they would be regarded as chimps, they would just get a "sapiens" tacked to their scientific name. That doesn't mean they wouldn't necessarily be considered equal, with equal rights to humans, just that they wouldn't be perceived as one of us.

Actually, I think the most important fact is that - likely - human and bakenezumi can't have children together. There'll never be half-breeds. There will always be an absolute barrier. They're - for what it's worth - different species.

But the point is: if you can communicate with them that easily, you have an unprecedent situation. It's inevitable that "being human" feels less special, less unique. But old habits die hard, and people won't want to accept that.

Frankly, I don't quite get why people are so hung up on how Squealer treated the kid. Even if he treated her well it doesn't make any difference in their relationship any more than how humans treated bakenezumi. The argument that oh, but Squealer/the bakenezumi treated the kid well is the same as oh, but the humans treated bakenezumi well. (Because they did. It's not like destroying entire colonies was something they did often and with no reason.)

That. I have nothing to add. Quoted purely for emphasis.

Originally Posted by Trajan

However Dawnstorm, I viewed the trial not so much as a recognition that Squealer had any rights but as simply arena in which he could be put on display (naked!), laughed at, and public pronouncement of his punishment announced. It was more for the humans, to give them an opportunity to regain their feeling of superiority ("look at that naked little thing!" "he was a threat to us?") than a recognition that Squealer could not be killed without first being tried.

It's sort of hard to puzzle that one out. There was no chance of Squealer being acquitted here, in the first place. The thing is, though, that they talked to him. There are animal trials in human history, but those animals always had lawyers. It's not about rights. It's more like bullying. But bullying isn't any fun, if you can't laugh at their torment, and you can't laugh at their torment, if you can't understand it. They're not venting rage at an inanimate object; they're banding together in mutual reassurement that they're superior, and I think it's to banish the idea that this guy might actually be their equal. That wouldn't be necessary if the idea weren't plausible enough to bother them. [After all, what this guy did shouldn't have been possible.]

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Trajan

This really isn't worth having an extended discussion over, but since you asked for my basis . . .

I see you conveniently ignored the cases where nothing like this happened, also the show's budget animation. (That guy who was burned at the hospital? burned long enough for Fujita or whatever he was called to run to him and try to help him, only to be killed himself.) Look, the point is still the same: they were aiming for a gut reaction, after that, even an arm, an ear, seeing Kiroumaru's rather un-human profile, or even Satoru appearing and going "lol that wasn't me" would do the job. Was it 100% foolproof? Of course not. But it wasn't stupid or needlessly elaborate either (which was your original statement).

In any case, you're so firmly entrenched in your beliefs there's no point in continuing the discussion.

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

Actually, I think the most important fact is that - likely - human and bakenezumi can't have children together. There'll never be half-breeds. There will always be an absolute barrier. They're - for what it's worth - different species.

But the point is: if you can communicate with them that easily, you have an unprecedent situation. It's inevitable that "being human" feels less special, less unique. But old habits die hard, and people won't want to accept that.

Well, the biological barrier is certainly important, but as far as acceptance goes, I think it all comes down to perception... People in our history have called other humans animals for looking far less different from them than the difference between bakenezumi and humans. In any case, yes, there's still the threat of losing the feeling of being "special." But then, the humans in this story will always have something that they can point at and say "see, this makes us better than you!"

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

They're not venting rage at an inanimate object; they're banding together in mutual reassurement that they're superior, and I think it's to banish the idea that this guy might actually be their equal. That wouldn't be necessary if the idea weren't plausible enough to bother them. [After all, what this guy did shouldn't have been possible.]

I think that Squealer being their equal never occurred to them until he said the bakenezumi were human. (Btw that's where they laughed, they didn't laugh from the start.) I think the "trial" was, in a large part, fueled by the need to make a huge deal out of justice and retribution that fits the scope of Squealer's crimes. It's a way of venting. Sure, they could've just killed Squealer in his cell with no fanfare, but that would've made people feel he got off too easy.

[Triple_R]

Any reasonably complex plot (and SSY's certainly counts) will have at least a couple bits that raise eyebrows for you. But that's really all that SSY had, in my opinion, so it's not something I'd hold against it.

And I think that Kuromitsu is right about the idea behind Squealer's trial.

That being said, I'm a bit surprised Satoru didn't kill him after asking him a few questions. That's the sort of story a guy could brag about for a long time...


"Yes, it was just your mother, me, the fiend, Kiromaru, and Yakomaru. It was a tense standoff in this hellish and barren place. We had our doubts we'd get out of it alive. But through Saki's wits, Kiromaru's noble sacrifice, and my guts, we persevered and took out the Enemy General himself. It was a glorious day for humanity!"

"Tell it again, papa, tell it again!" Satoru's first child says.

[Trajan]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

I see you conveniently ignored the cases where nothing like this happened, also the show's budget animation. (That guy who was burned at the hospital? burned long enough for Fujita or whatever he was called to run to him and try to help him, only to be killed himself.) Look, the point is still the same: they were aiming for a gut reaction, after that, even an arm, an ear, seeing Kiroumaru's rather un-human profile, or even Satoru appearing and going "lol that wasn't me" would do the job. Was it 100% foolproof? Of course not. But it wasn't stupid or needlessly elaborate either (which was your original statement).

In any case, you're so firmly entrenched in your beliefs there's no point in continuing the discussion.

Well, I don't see how I can possibly assume that if the animation budget was higher the deaths would have played out in a totally different manner. If the climax of your story relies on an event occurring in a specific way (slow death), you should really allocate enough of your budget to ensure that previous occurrences of that event unfold in the same specific way. We're talking 15-20 seconds of animation in the entire series.

And I ignored that case b/c Fujita comes over and tries to contain the flames, which allows him to burn a second or two longer. The guy is still instantly engulfed in flames, with no time to strike a pose and show off his face. Then Fujita goes up almost instantly himself. I also ignored the third guy who dies at the hospital, even though he instantly becomes a mist of blood, because Saki didn't actually see that (she was on the other side of the door). I also ignored cases where we didn't see who caused the deaths (the nurse in the hospital, the multiple body parts floating in the air at the beginning of Ep. 21). From what we are shown, save Shisei and Kiroumaru, every single on-screen death the akki causes is through the instant and complete vaporization or combustion of the victim.

Therefore, based on what I saw on-screen, I do think Saki's plan was silly, had a low probability of success, and that she ignored better options. Of course, it worked out for her in the end, so I can't really argue with the outcome. She was right, but for the wrong reasons.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

That being said, I'm a bit surprised Satoru didn't kill him after asking him a few questions. That's the sort of story a guy could brag about for a long time...

You hit on something that bothered me when watching the final episode. We cut immediately from Squealer standing over the dead akki to Squealer in prison with Saki asking Squealer if he knew who they were. [Why wouldn't he, was he tortured? mind-raped?]. Who decided to capture Squealer, Saki? How did they manage to get back to the village? Wouldn't they have questioned Squealer on the boat ride home?

I feel like it would have worked better to have Saki and Satoru question Squealer in Tokyo and, based on his answers, decide that they couldn't simply kill him like an animal right then (he's not human, but he does have some right to life, Kiroumaru flashback here gives Saki the realization). They bring him back to the village and insist on the facade of a trial (knowing full well he will be found guilty, but allowing Squealer a chance to explain/defend his actions). As the "heroes of Tokyo," their request is granted, and then we largely end up in the same situation as the anime. But that's my own personal preference, as I think it would end on a slightly more uplifting note.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Trajan

You hit on something that bothered me when watching the final episode. We cut immediately from Squealer standing over the dead akki to Squealer in prison with Saki asking Squealer if he knew who they were. [Why wouldn't he, was he tortured? mind-raped?]. Who decided to capture Squealer, Saki? How did they manage to get back to the village? Wouldn't they have questioned Squealer on the boat ride home?

I have to admit, I found this weird too.

Someone had to take Squealer captive, and the only people in a position to do that were Saki and Satoru. So why are Saki and Satoru talking to him in jail as if this is their first meeting with him since he deceived Tomiko et al well before the war broke out?

Unless Squealer successfully managed to run away from Saki and Satoru, only to get captured by some other cantus-using humans later, it's hard to make sense out of this.

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

I think that Squealer being their equal never occurred to them until he said the bakenezumi were human. (Btw that's where they laughed, they didn't laugh from the start.) I think the "trial" was, in a large part, fueled by the need to make a huge deal out of justice and retribution that fits the scope of Squealer's crimes. It's a way of venting. Sure, they could've just killed Squealer in his cell with no fanfare, but that would've made people feel he got off too easy.

I agree. I never meant to imply that it was a conscious motive. More like something that bothers you at the edge of your mind, and then this ridiculous creature says it's human, and you suddenly "see" how silly it was of you to worry, and you laugh it away. After that sort of laughter, it's a lot easier to spare bakenezumi colonies (that is, the more moderate people might have better cards now), because it's easier to blame it all on this one absurd megalomaniac. They don't have to get rid of all bakenezumi, just be a bit more vigilant and root out the future demagogues. They should be easy to spot through their delusions of grandeur. They didn't spot Squealer, but that's just because they were careless.

I think that the laughter was so spontaneous, precisely because of that "release" effect: what did we think? (Not that I think that anybody actually thought "What did we think?" - I think it's all mostly an unarticulated uneasiness that gets eased with out much acknowledgement.)

Hope I'm making more sense this time round. It's hard to articulate the unarticulated.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I have to admit, I found this weird too.

Someone had to take Squealer captive, and the only people in a position to do that were Saki and Satoru. So why are Saki and Satoru talking to him in jail as if this is their first meeting with him since he deceived Tomiko et al well before the war broke out?

Unless Squealer successfully managed to run away from Saki and Satoru, only to get captured by some other cantus-using humans later, it's hard to make sense out of this.

The way Saki put the question, as if to an inbecile or confused person, makes me think he was pretty catatonic all the way back to the village, and when they talked to him, he was just recovering from the shock. He wouldn't have resisted at all, and just done - as if on autopilot - whatever they told him. At least, that's how I imagined it.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

I agree. I never meant to imply that it was a conscious motive. More like something that bothers you at the edge of your mind, and then this ridiculous creature says it's human, and you suddenly "see" how silly it was of you to worry, and you laugh it away. After that sort of laughter, it's a lot easier to spare bakenezumi colonies (that is, the more moderate people might have better cards now), because it's easier to blame it all on this one absurd megalomaniac. They don't have to get rid of all bakenezumi, just be a bit more vigilant and root out the future demagogues. They should be easy to spot through their delusions of grandeur. They didn't spot Squealer, but that's just because they were careless.

I think that the laughter was so spontaneous, precisely because of that "release" effect: what did we think? (Not that I think that anybody actually thought "What did we think?" - I think it's all mostly an unarticulated uneasiness that gets eased with out much acknowledgement.)

Hope I'm making more sense this time round. It's hard to articulate the unarticulated.



The way Saki put the question, as if to an inbecile or confused person, makes me think he was pretty catatonic all the way back to the village, and when they talked to him, he was just recovering from the shock. He wouldn't have resisted at all, and just done - as if on autopilot - whatever they told him. At least, that's how I imagined it.

Excellent post. All of this makes perfect sense, I have to admit.

And yeah, I can definitely see how Squealer's trial could make it easier for humans to pin everything on "this one absurd megalomaniac", and hence spare Bakenezumi in general.

[creb]

Nevermind how Saki and Satoru have a history of letting Squealer off easy. If there's an actual weak link in the story, that's it, more than anything else. They must have blithely killed hundreds, possibly even thousands, but here's this rat who betrayed them as children, freaked them out and then disturbed them as teenagers, but they always let him be. Meanwhile there's rats who are shooting arrows at them that they know can't harm them. Explosions all around!

Though, in retrospect, I imagine the onus of all that is largely on Saki-and I suppose that empathy of hers is what makes her who she is, and Satoru's crush on her, as I suspect if Saki had not existed, Satoru wouldn't have thought twice at having offed Squealer way back when they were children.

[Triple_R]

Squealer doesn't just talk Japanese. He talks it with a significant degree of eloquence (well, if those subs are to be trusted, lol).

I think for Saki and Satoru that makes a big difference. Easier to treat enemies as animals to be slaughtered when they don't speak your own language as eloquently as you yourself do.


That being said, I also think that Saki is a very sentimental person. Someone earlier mentioned how she was in tears after killing Squealer.

Here's how I think Saki sees it: For all the death and destruction that Squealer brought to Saki's friends and family and entire village, he's also a part of her personal history. He's a part of her childhood. He's a major part of that adventure she went on with her eventual husband when they were kids going on a field trip into the wild.

Throughout this story, Saki just keeps on losing one part of her childhood after another after another. First it's Shun. Then it's Maria and Mamoru. Then it's her parents. Then it's Kiroumaru. And now it's Squealer.

I think it saddens Saki that all of these people who had important roles in her childhood are gone. Satoru really is all she has left. For a sentimental person like Saki, that's very melancholic. Very saddening.

Yes, it's not exactly rational. But then, this is a woman that needlessly risked losing a potentially genocidal war because she couldn't bear the thought of losing Satoru.

I think there's a part of Saki that doesn't view Squealer as the vile Enemy General that killed countless humans, but rather as this interesting creature that she shared interesting conversations and interesting adventures with. And she's sad that's yet another interesting part of her past that's forever gone.

[creb]

Women.

But, we love 'em anyways.

(Or, maybe that's why we love 'em?)

[kitten320]

I'll be blunt and say that I'm very pissed off with humans here.
Saying that they treated queerats as equals is just... ugh! Saki and Satorou should have seen that it is not true. Queerats have to report their every step but do humans have to report anything to them? Once queerat does something wrong, humans kills them? But what about other way around?

Humans took full control of them and call it equality? Truth that queerats used to be real humans is not helpful either.

What Squeeler did was harsh, especially towards Maria and Mamomu but in all honesty if humans don't learn to treat them with respect, I don't mind another rebellion because they deserve it for their heartless actions =/

Otherwise it was a strong episode for strong and engaging series. I had few issues but it defiantly gets a strong 8 from me.

[CJ_Walker]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Squealer doesn't just talk Japanese. He talks it with a significant degree of eloquence (well, if those subs are to be trusted, lol).

I think for Saki and Satoru that makes a big difference. Easier to treat enemies as animals to be slaughtered when they don't speak your own language as eloquently as you yourself do.


That being said, I also think that Saki is a very sentimental person. Someone earlier mentioned how she was in tears after killing Squealer.

Here's how I think Saki sees it: For all the death and destruction that Squealer brought to Saki's friends and family and entire village, he's also a part of her personal history. He's a part of her childhood. He's a major part of that adventure she went on with her eventual husband when they were kids going on a field trip into the wild.

Throughout this story, Saki just keeps on losing one part of her childhood after another after another. First it's Shun. Then it's Maria and Mamoru. Then it's her parents. Then it's Kiroumaru. And now it's Squealer.

I think it saddens Saki that all of these people who had important roles in her childhood are gone. Satoru really is all she has left. For a sentimental person like Saki, that's very melancholic. Very saddening.

Yes, it's not exactly rational. But then, this is a woman that needlessly risked losing a potentially genocidal war because she couldn't bear the thought of losing Satoru.

I think there's a part of Saki that doesn't view Squealer as the vile Enemy General that killed countless humans, but rather as this interesting creature that she shared interesting conversations and interesting adventures with. And she's sad that's yet another interesting part of her past that's forever gone.

Women...that actually sounds about right.

Women are known for acting on feelings instead of logic, especially TEENAGE girls!

This is one of her flaws, which makes her well rounded as a character, just doing things based on her feelings rather than common sense. She did do some stupid things during the course of the show, and to be honest with you, I agree with the sentiment expressed earlier that "without Saki, none of that war stuff would have happened."

but then there would be no story.

So, I can live with Saki's irrational behavior as a main catalyst for the movement of the plot. It coincides with what most people know about women doing illogical things.