[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[musouka]

From the first time I read the EP7 Tea Party, I knew it was the truth. Nice to get some confirmation, but it really wasn't necessary if you just paid attention to the narrative itself.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Renall

Well, that all kind of re-ruins the ending. Let's hope they're going somewhere with it. If they want to take this route they have a lot more to explain.

Well, it is kinda one of the scenarios of what I expected what must have happened. I wouldn't go so far and say it re-ruins anything, but it raises questions and it's the question whether the manga is going to go out and answer them as well...or keep them secret in order for the message to hit home.

Kyrie appeared to know that she was not going to be coming back. But why? Was it because she was guilty; if so, why'd she do it? Was it because she wasn't guilty; in which case why assume Eva was going to get out of it?

Well, you can go out on a limb and say that Kyrie and Rudolph might have actually been in a situation desperate enough to allow drastic measures to be taken. They are the only ones who are in outright connection to yakuza and might even be in quite serious danger off the island as well.
Also, connecting all the dots, if they managed to silence everybody, there would have been a high chance for them to succeed and get at least a considerably fine amount of money. We know Kyrie likes thinking around corners and Rudolph seems to like gambling with fate as much as anybody in this family.

The EP7 Tea Party strongly hinted towards Kyrie knowing that her gun was either broken or out of ammo (might I even assume she held Chiester556?!)...so she knew that Eva would have good chances of wounding or killing her. If she really loved Ange, like the EP8 manga STRONGLY implied, she's definitely want her away from the Sumaderas, and since she probably knows Eva's strong connection to family and children, she probably wanted to give her as much reason to care for and protect Ange as possible.

I would definitely like to know an actual source for Kyrie's desperation...and I hope the next chapter with Ange waking up in the Golden Land actually touches on this, instead of just her going, "MOM, DAD, I WUV U!!"...but I can think of quite a few reasons that make her behavior not at all unlikely.

Originally Posted by GreyZone

So would it be correct to assume, that the EP7TP is "warped in time & space" and actually depicts Ange's reaction to reading the book of one truth? i.e. a "flash forward"? Only in the timeline of the meta-narrative, of course.

Well, you can take a look at her reaction towards it in the manga...

Spoiler for EP8 Chapter 24:

That is the truth of Rokkenjima you say?
I won't accept it...
You won't accept it?! This is the truth, you know that?! XXXXX is the culprit!!
But Bernkastel already denied this...
It's obvious this has to be some random blabbering...
I won't accept it...
This is just supposed to make me question myself, to sneer at me...
I won't accept it!

AHHAHAHAHA
The Red Truth is absolute?!
That is your idea of absolute, isn't it?!
It's not my idea of it!!
My truth won't be dragged through the dirt by something like this!!
Ange, calm down, will you?
You were the one who wanted to know, weren't you?!
My truth is that aunt Eva is the culprit!!
Aunt Eva killed them all!
Aunt Eva is to blame for everything!!

Dad, Mom, my brother, all of them, all of them are just victims!!
Nobody is at fault!! RIGHT?! RIGHT?!
Your auntie will always be your ally
AHAHAHAHAHA!! Aaah, I got it know! I got what your words meant!
That's right aunt Eva! You are the culprit! You alone are the culprit! There is no doubt!!

It's me who's right!
It's the world that's queer, for not understanding me!
It's broken!!
I denounce the Red Truth!
I denounce the whole world!!!
Is that so...
Well, then write it down in Red Truth that only you can write
But how are humans supposed to write down Red Truth?
There is a way!
There is a deep red ink that only humans can use to write!

It's me who's right! It's the world that's wrong!
I will write it down! My own Red Truth!
I never agree with the truth of you people's wooooooooorld!!

[Leafsnail]

Originally Posted by Renall

It does, however, make clear that Eva was almost certainly not an accomplice to anything, whether real or fakery. If she was, surely she'd have mentioned it. Like "it was supposed to be a game" or "I was told nobody would get hurt." If she came to believe Kyrie was responsible, then she was operating with the mindset of someone who had no idea what was going on in terms of anything Yasu might've been doing or anything along those lines, nor does it appear she was planning anything herself. So she can't know if Kyrie was an accomplice (or "accomplice"), why Kyrie would say those things or if Eva had any way to even substantiate them, and so forth.

I agree. There's no real reason to think that Eva would have been an accomplice anyway - the epitaph was solved before Yasu had a chance to set the first twilight in motion (Yasu probably does it at midnight).

The weirdness in the episode 7 Tea Party can probably be largely explained by the fact that Eva knows almost nothing. The presence of Beatrice in the gold room must have been particularly baffling to her.

Originally Posted by Renall

There has to be something more to it than this though. "Oh yeah, your mom killed everybody" just can't be the revelation we're left with. There has to be more about what happened and why Kyrie would say and do those things (whether "those things" are actual murders or just taking responsibility for them to Eva). Kyrie appeared to know that she was not going to be coming back. But why? Was it because she was guilty; if so, why'd she do it? Was it because she wasn't guilty; in which case why assume Eva was going to get out of it?

When Kyrie said those things she was about to engage in a duel with Eva. Let's turn the chessboard over and look at it from her perspective. The possible outcomes that exist:
- Kyrie wins the duel: Eva is dead. What Kyrie said to her is irrelevant because she'll never get to say it to anyone else.
- Eva wins the duel but doesn't manage to escape: Eva is dead. What Kyrie said to her is irrelevant because she'll never get to say it to anyone else.
- Eva wins the duel and escapes: Eva is alive. Kyrie's words actually matter, because they'll influence how Eva will treat Ange afterwards.
Therefore in that conversation Kyrie would assume that she won't be making it back alive and Eva will. Therefore, she might as well try to distant herself from Ange as much as possible - that way Eva would see Ange as another victim of Kyrie's cruel behaviour and sympathize.

Although it could also be that Kyrie was already out of bullets/had a non-functional gun (hence her use of a knife in the guest house) and knew she was going to lose the duel.

That said, I'd like more detail on why exactly she decided to kill a load of people. I've got a vague idea (desperation for money + a worry that Eva might continue killing people + a deep sense of despair and fury at the secret she's just learnt + a general disdain for the Ushiromiya family which ranks her dead last + what looked like a golden opportunity to commit the perfect crime) but I would like to hear it directly from the author.

Originally Posted by GreyZone

So would it be correct to assume, that the EP7TP is "warped in time & space" and actually depicts Ange's reaction to reading the book of one truth? i.e. a "flash forward"? Only in the timeline of the meta-narrative, of course.

The flash-forward idea might work, but I think the Ange at the start of episode 8 remembers the ep7 Tea Party. It might be that she's just in denial at that point.

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

It seems odd that the Maria's rose thing would go ahead in Prime even though the first forgeries are considered to probably have been written in advance.

Well Yasu probably was trying to do the same things as she did in her forgeries. It's just that the adults were a lot smarter than she thought, and solved the epitaph before she even started preparing the first twilight.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by musouka

From the first time I read the EP7 Tea Party, I knew it was the truth. Nice to get some confirmation, but it really wasn't necessary if you just paid attention to the narrative itself.

Arrogant brag-posting doesn't contribute to the conversation in any meaningful way, and whether it's "truth" misses the point entirely. It confirms it's what Eva saw, but there's aspects of what was shown in ep7 that Eva could not possibly have been witness to, like Kyrie killing Gohda or Jessica (and to some extent any description of anyone's mental states other than her own). Acting like you have the slightest idea what it means is pretty arrogant, especially since it changes absolutely nothing unless the manga actually goes into greater depth on it. Anything useful to add?

Originally Posted by haguruma

The EP7 Tea Party strongly hinted towards Kyrie knowing that her gun was either broken or out of ammo (might I even assume she held Chiester556?!)...so she knew that Eva would have good chances of wounding or killing her. If she really loved Ange, like the EP8 manga STRONGLY implied, she's definitely want her away from the Sumaderas, and since she probably knows Eva's strong connection to family and children, she probably wanted to give her as much reason to care for and protect Ange as possible.

Right, but why even put yourself in a situation where Eva is inclined to kill you? Kyrie basically walks to her own death. If she's guilty then it could be explained away as "oh shit, Eva caught me and I'm not going to be able to shoot her, I better at least think of something to make her inclined not to blame Ange," but then there's still the problem of motive and why she would ever think mass murder was a good idea. If that wasn't her motivation for doing things, what the hell was?

She almost acts like Eva killing her is the capstone on everything, but it's not clear how that's the case other than maybe Eva believing she "finished" things by taking her out... but then what about Battler? There's really no way Eva couldn't have been concerned about Battler in some fashion. Either he was suspect, because who knows if he's in league with his parents and he's still around and potentially dangerous since Eva had not located him, or he was innocent and what does that mean? Where was he? Would Kyrie and Rudolf kill him? He apparently wasn't anywhere she noticed, and she was at least in multiple locations if she actually observed all the dead people at some time or other. Battler not being in the story after the shooting starts is a hell of an omission.

So either there's more in the diary or Eva didn't write down anything about Battler. In the first case, Ange probably should've kept reading; in the second, that's... kind of a major hole in her diary. Even if she never saw him again she'd have had thoughts about him. Why isn't it there?

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

When Kyrie said those things she was about to engage in a duel with Eva. Let's turn the chessboard over and look at it from her perspective.

What about anything would lead to the assumption that Eva would survive, though? They've been told about the bomb, but do they know how it's set? Does Kyrie expect it to go off or not go off? Is she expecting it to be set? Was she planning to do it herself? Assuming Kyrie is smart enough here to consider all these possible outcomes also runs counter to the idea that Kyrie was dumb enough to think she could get away with needless mass murder. Which one is it?

Kyrie's motives just don't make any sense. If she's actually responsible, there's a giant gaping hole in her motivation that money alone cannot fill if this resolution is to have any meaningful credibility. When you build up an entire thematic construction of the strength and importance of family in the overall story and within ep8 itself, you are not allowed to just go "lol and then becuz mony kirie kilt dem." What about all that other stuff? It puts Battler right back squarely in the position of being a patronizing ass about things and excusing away the actions of ruthless murderers to spare Ange's feelings because she supposedly can't handle it. And it... kinda makes the villains right, which does not make any sense at all.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

Well Yasu probably was trying to do the same things as she did in her forgeries. It's just that the adults were a lot smarter than she thought, and solved the epitaph before she even started preparing the first twilight.

You mean, Yasu deliberately under-watered a specific rose to make it sickly and hoped that Maria took the most likely path through the garden and happened to see it, in order for the bottle stories to match reality?

I suppose it's technically possible, given that Kanon was supposed to be in charge of the garden.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Renall

Arrogant brag-posting doesn't contribute to the conversation in any meaningful way, and whether it's "truth" misses the point entirely. It confirms it's what Eva saw, but there's aspects of what was shown in ep7 that Eva could not possibly have been witness to, like Kyrie killing Gohda or Jessica (and to some extent any description of anyone's mental states other than her own). Acting like you have the slightest idea what it means is pretty arrogant, especially since it changes absolutely nothing unless the manga actually goes into greater depth on it. Anything useful to add?

Regurgitating the same silly complaints you've had for the past three years doesn't add to the conversation either, but strangely you still felt compelled to post them.

The fact that this truth has holes in it is undeniable, so there are a few different ways people could have died. A lot of it is clearly Eva reconstructing things from after the fact, judging by the placement of the bodies. None of this negates that she was our only living eyewitness--aside from Touya--and that's how the series framed the Tea Party from the beginning. That, coupled with how Kyrie was characterized in forgeries written by our other eyewitness, Touya, should have made it crystal clear that Kyrie was behind the main thrust of the massacre in some way, shape, or form. So, yes, it was obvious, has always been obvious, and it's sad that Ryukishi finally had to say "the answer is two" for people to finally get it.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by musouka

That, coupled with how Kyrie was characterized in forgeries written by our other eyewitness, Touya, should have made it crystal clear that Kyrie was behind the main thrust of the massacre in some way, shape, or form. So, yes, it was obvious, has always been obvious, and it's sad that Ryukishi finally had to say "the answer is two" for people to finally get it.

Okay, how did you gather that from ep1-4 again? How do you get from Kyrie's "Man it took me twelve years to get the gumption to murder one person I hated more than anything, and I was doing it entirely for love" to "Y'know what, I'm just gonna murder everyone I see because CASH MONEYS."

Perhaps because you didn't. Because, as I've repeatedly pointed out, that actually runs counter to the notion that she would be a ruthless opportunist inclined to murder a bunch of people who didn't even know anything was happening in the name of gold she can't spend and money she can't confirm even exists.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

But Tohya did mention that he (Battler) met with Eva at some point and that they lost each other in the tunnels.

Well, Battler never mentioned Eva. It was Ange who assumed it was Eva. It could have been anyone really, even Gohda.

Originally Posted by Renall

Well, that all kind of re-ruins the ending. Let's hope they're going somewhere with it. If they want to take this route they have a lot more to explain.

Ultimately it just comes down to a question of the reliability of Eva's observations. Since we're getting it in manga form and in snippets arranged for dramatic effect it's really hard to distinguish things like "who Eva actually saw die" and "who Eva just saw and assumed dead" and "who Eva has no idea about."

It does, however, make clear that Eva was almost certainly not an accomplice to anything, whether real or fakery. If she was, surely she'd have mentioned it. Like "it was supposed to be a game" or "I was told nobody would get hurt." If she came to believe Kyrie was responsible, then she was operating with the mindset of someone who had no idea what was going on in terms of anything Yasu might've been doing or anything along those lines, nor does it appear she was planning anything herself. So she can't know if Kyrie was an accomplice (or "accomplice"), why Kyrie would say those things or if Eva had any way to even substantiate them, and so forth.

There has to be something more to it than this though. "Oh yeah, your mom killed everybody" just can't be the revelation we're left with. There has to be more about what happened and why Kyrie would say and do those things (whether "those things" are actual murders or just taking responsibility for them to Eva). Kyrie appeared to know that she was not going to be coming back. But why? Was it because she was guilty; if so, why'd she do it? Was it because she wasn't guilty; in which case why assume Eva was going to get out of it?

More than it re-ruin everything it sort of felt like running in circles.
I mean we get Ep 7 Teaparty, we see this ending, we're then told it was to prepare Ange than... we re-saw this ending?
What's this?
If at first you don't suceed try again in the same way? If Ange's family is the culprit I was at least hoping for some variations on the theme, not for the same retelling as before (unless EP 7 Teaparty in the manga is different? but Ep 7 isn't there yet...)... especially considering she saw Bern's game and that one seemed worse than the Teaparty.

Of course meta speaking it can be that Ange had read the book for real or just got obsessed with that speculation and she's sort of obsessed by it so as the meta isn't reality whatever she heard we'll lead her to that same truth.

After all the red: this book contains the truth means little if we can't prove that:
a) it's factual truth and not interpretative/speculated/missing important details truth
b) with truth Bern's refer to the truth of what happened in Prime's Rokkenjima not in whatever forgery/speculation/mindsetting or whatever else there can be.


On a sidenote has someone realized the contraddiction in all this?
If Kyrie and Rudolf were bribed they didn't need a huge amount of money right then (unless they acually needed much more of it or didn't know about the money being sent their way)
If Yasu were to give off the money as paiment for taking their lives, assuming she didn't plot to have Ange being left home... who was she thinking would end up enjoying the money? She plans to blast the whole family away so who should get the money? Kumasawa and Nanjo have children but Rudolf is supposed to bring his kids along...
I don't know, this part feels weird for me.

As for Eva's diary let's see what it really tells us:

- we can't know how much descriptive Eva was so minute details can be additions made by the readers and therefore be tricky

- The family reaches Rokkenjima (Battler might have or might have not seen Kanon. I'll assume he had as in the VN it was implied he remembered seeing him)
- Eva saw the rose garden and likely Maria being fascinated by the rose (I can't see if there's a rose in pooor conditions though)
- Eva saw Beatrice's portrait.
- Eva said something, likely to Krauss and Natsuhi that were sitting on a couch.
- Once at the table Eva saw Maria reading something from an envelope with the family crest (I'll assume it's the witch's challenge)
- Eva saw the cousins leave for the night
- Eva and likely the other siblings talked and somehow found their way to the room with the gold (we don't know if they were handed the solution so that Yasu could blackmail/bribe them into becoming accomplices or they found it on their own)
- Once there they met Beatrice who told them something (was it the credit card what she was showing them?). In the room there's the watch and the guns.
- Eva argues with Natsuhi, which seems to have jumped on her
- Natsuhi gets shoot in the head
- Eva has shoot to someone (might be Natsuhi)
- Krauss has been shoot as well
- Eva and Hideyoshi panic
- Rosa says something mean
- Rosa and Hideyoshi are shoot
- Eva is shoot too

{I'll assume here there's a huge blank hole in which Eva was unconscious}

- Eva sees George's corpse
- Eva sees... no idea, the panel is too small
- Eva sees Jessica's corpse
- Eva sees... Rudolf I think, either sitting there waiting or just having been shoot
- Eva sees Kyrie coming

No idea if the faces of Rudolf and Kyrie covered in blood and wearing those grins are what Rudolf saw or just what Ange pictured she should have seen watching at them.

And that's all those scenes implied Eva saw... though positions, expressions and setting might have been slightly different and presented in such way only because Ange assumed things were like that.

Originally Posted by Renall

Actually now that I look at it, that's probably a tree, so George may well have been spotted at the location Rudolf demonstrates. So if nothing else, everyone Eva found in the ep7 TP were probably at the locations she found them, which definitely means she never saw Battler anywhere but doesn't necessarily mean she never saw him again. She either didn't write about it or did and that part wasn't shown yet.

If the pictures were shown in cronological order though, Eva spotted George before she saw Rudolf, which is the opposite of what happened in the Teaparty.

It'll be interesting if George and Jessica just killed each other but Rudolf took the blame.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Well, it is kinda one of the scenarios of what I expected what must have happened. I wouldn't go so far and say it re-ruins anything, but it raises questions and it's the question whether the manga is going to go out and answer them as well...or keep them secret in order for the message to hit home.


Well, you can go out on a limb and say that Kyrie and Rudolph might have actually been in a situation desperate enough to allow drastic measures to be taken. They are the only ones who are in outright connection to yakuza and might even be in quite serious danger off the island as well.
Also, connecting all the dots, if they managed to silence everybody, there would have been a high chance for them to succeed and get at least a considerably fine amount of money. We know Kyrie likes thinking around corners and Rudolph seems to like gambling with fate as much as anybody in this family.

The EP7 Tea Party strongly hinted towards Kyrie knowing that her gun was either broken or out of ammo (might I even assume she held Chiester556?!)...so she knew that Eva would have good chances of wounding or killing her. If she really loved Ange, like the EP8 manga STRONGLY implied, she's definitely want her away from the Sumaderas, and since she probably knows Eva's strong connection to family and children, she probably wanted to give her as much reason to care for and protect Ange as possible.

I would definitely like to know an actual source for Kyrie's desperation...and I hope the next chapter with Ange waking up in the Golden Land actually touches on this, instead of just her going, "MOM, DAD, I WUV U!!"...but I can think of quite a few reasons that make her behavior not at all unlikely.


Well, you can take a look at her reaction towards it in the manga...

Spoiler for EP8 Chapter 24:

That is the truth of Rokkenjima you say?
I won't accept it...
You won't accept it?! This is the truth, you know that?! XXXXX is the culprit!!
But Bernkastel already denied this...
It's obvious this has to be some random blabbering...
I won't accept it...
This is just supposed to make me question myself, to sneer at me...
I won't accept it!

AHHAHAHAHA
The Red Truth is absolute?!
That is your idea of absolute, isn't it?!
It's not my idea of it!!
My truth won't be dragged through the dirt by something like this!!
Ange, calm down, will you?
You were the one who wanted to know, weren't you?!
My truth is that aunt Eva is the culprit!!
Aunt Eva killed them all!
Aunt Eva is to blame for everything!!

Dad, Mom, my brother, all of them, all of them are just victims!!
Nobody is at fault!! RIGHT?! RIGHT?!
Your auntie will always be your ally
AHAHAHAHAHA!! Aaah, I got it know! I got what your words meant!
That's right aunt Eva! You are the culprit! You alone are the culprit! There is no doubt!!

It's me who's right!
It's the world that's queer, for not understanding me!
It's broken!!
I denounce the Red Truth!
I denounce the whole world!!!
Is that so...
Well, then write it down in Red Truth that only you can write
But how are humans supposed to write down Red Truth?
There is a way!
There is a deep red ink that only humans can use to write!

It's me who's right! It's the world that's wrong!
I will write it down! My own Red Truth!
I never agree with the truth of you people's wooooooooorld!!

Skipping how Ange's desperation is depicted in an AWESOME manner and how THANKFUL I am to you for showing us this and translating it, there's to say it's interesting how the culprit's name is censored.
I mean, if it's the Rudolf's family why it's not said out loud but censored?

And why Battler gets involved when the diary apparently doesn't mention him?

Though another interesting theory is that actually Yasu and Battler ganged up to kill everyone like in the Ougon game and Kyrie and Rudolf got involved.
After all we never see them shooting and Eva might not have seen who shoot at Rosa, Hideyoshi and herself if it happened quick enough.
As Eva doesn't know the truth Rudolf and Kyrie covered it up for Battler by taking the blame.

Originally Posted by Renall

It does, however, make clear that Eva was almost certainly not an accomplice to anything, whether real or fakery. If she was, surely she'd have mentioned it. Like "it was supposed to be a game" or "I was told nobody would get hurt." If she came to believe Kyrie was responsible, then she was operating with the mindset of someone who had no idea what was going on in terms of anything Yasu might've been doing or anything along those lines, nor does it appear she was planning anything herself. So she can't know if Kyrie was an accomplice (or "accomplice"), why Kyrie would say those things or if Eva had any way to even substantiate them, and so forth.

The real problem is we aren't said much about what's written, only shown panels. Theoretically it's possible they were asked to take part to a game but then Natsuhi died for real, although likely it was an incident, and plans were changed as things went downhill.

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

The flash-forward idea might work, but I think the Ange at the start of episode 8 remembers the ep7 Tea Party. It might be that she's just in denial at that point.

The interesting thing about Ange is that she keeps on moving back and forth in time.

In Ep 4 she jumps from a building than start a travel, reaches Rokkenjima and dies there.
In Ep 6 she's on her way to Rokkenjima, meets Hachijo and leaves her.
In Ep 8 she's again with Hachijo... then she's back on the building from where she planned to jump! then, according to the ending you choose, she's either on the boat for Rokkenjima or again on the building.

There's to wonder if Ange jumped off the building and ended in coma and now in her mind she's reliving that moment and what she ould have done hadn't she chosen to jump.

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

Well Yasu probably was trying to do the same things as she did in her forgeries. It's just that the adults were a lot smarter than she thought, and solved the epitaph before she even started preparing the first twilight.

Well, Yasu can't insure a rosa will get sick. Maybe that scene just meant that they saw the roses and the letter was handed in another moment.
We're filling the blanks with what we know but this might lead us to wrong deductions.

Originally Posted by Renall

Right, but why even put yourself in a situation where Eva is inclined to kill you? Kyrie basically walks to her own death. If she's guilty then it could be explained away as "oh shit, Eva caught me and I'm not going to be able to shoot her, I better at least think of something to make her inclined not to blame Ange," but then there's still the problem of motive and why she would ever think mass murder was a good idea. If that wasn't her motivation for doing things, what the hell was?

She almost acts like Eva killing her is the capstone on everything, but it's not clear how that's the case other than maybe Eva believing she "finished" things by taking her out... but then what about Battler? There's really no way Eva couldn't have been concerned about Battler in some fashion. Either he was suspect, because who knows if he's in league with his parents and he's still around and potentially dangerous since Eva had not located him, or he was innocent and what does that mean? Where was he? Would Kyrie and Rudolf kill him? He apparently wasn't anywhere she noticed, and she was at least in multiple locations if she actually observed all the dead people at some time or other. Battler not being in the story after the shooting starts is a hell of an omission.

So either there's more in the diary or Eva didn't write down anything about Battler. In the first case, Ange probably should've kept reading; in the second, that's... kind of a major hole in her diary. Even if she never saw him again she'd have had thoughts about him. Why isn't it there?

Honestly I was hoping the diary would have pushed the blame on the Sumadera as well. The all important Sumadera weren't that important apparently in Umineko if not for Ange's tiny realization about the importance of 'Maria's magic'.

[Renall]

I'm... not sure where you draw the conclusion that Kyrie, a person who strongly influenced Battler to think like the other person is thinking, lacks empathy. Chessboard thinking is, quite literally, empathizing with someone in order to try to figure out how they would act in the same situation. Kyrie's lies to Eva in the very Tea Party you're referencing further show how clever she is at reading people emotionally, as disowning Ange is a specific ploy to elicit sympathy with Eva so that Eva will be kind to Ange in the future.

Or how she is significantly more desperate for money than anyone else, for that matter. Especially since, though she needs money as much as any of the other adults, she plays it off the coolest of almost any of the adults and is very calculating in her behavior.

I can't help but think your read of Kyrie is completely off base.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by musouka

Yes, yes, clearly no parallel can be read between Kyrie's mounting desperation Asumu out of Rudolf's life and ruthless inability to empathize with people and her mounting desperation for money and, uh, ruthless inability to empathize with people? Renall's way is the only way to read Umineko, and if anyone thought Kyrie was capable or willing to pull off the murders pre-Chiru (as I did) they must have been lying or jumping to conclusions. Because if Renall couldn't figure out the answer, then no one else could have, that's for sure!

No need to be sarcastic.
Renall has a point. Apparently it took a long time for Kyrie to ready herself to commit 1 single murder against the woman she loathed the most and that drived her almost insane (and she was probably also pressured by the fact she had gotten pregnant).
It's hard to think now she'll be so casual about killing everyone.
Had she killed Asumu I could accept it no problems but so far we've been told more than once that she hadn't.
So I think she needed more to come to mass murder.
She should have been very cornered, possibly her family or her union with Rudolf threatened.

In that case it would make more sense.

Said this I think many, me included had believed she was one of the culprits... but we just couldn't swallow the reasons the teaparty gave us.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Renall

I'm... not sure where you draw the conclusion that Kyrie, a person who strongly influenced Battler to think like the other person is thinking, lacks empathy. Chessboard thinking is, quite literally, empathizing with someone in order to try to figure out how they would act in the same situation.

Actually, it isn't. Trying to figure out the triggers for people's actions isn't the same as trying to empathize with the emotions behind said actions. Battler's attempts at "chessboard thinking" all through the initial arcs failed because he was unable to be sympathetic to Beato. Likewise, Kyrie has some of the most off-base ideas about the reasons for Yasu's actions through the initial four arcs.

Originally Posted by Renall

Or how she is significantly more desperate for money than anyone else, for that matter.

Which is the point. It's need for money AND ruthlessness. Kyrie wasn't the only person that killed someone in the EP7 Tea Party. She is, however, the only one that kept her head and figured out the easiest, most logical way out of the mess once the first shot was fired (aka, "kill everyone") because she's been characterized as someone ruthless and willing to kill in order to get her way.

Originally Posted by Renall

Especially since, though she needs money as much as any of the other adults, she plays it off the coolest of almost any of the adults and is very calculating in her behavior.

Yes, calculating enough to weigh the options and come to the conclusion that Yasu was telling the truth and that the gold was a lost cause once someone had actually died.

Again, Kyrie was the person I had settled on as being the culprit long before Chiru. I just couldn't figure out how, because it seemed like she always died before any of the events could take place. EP7 answered any questions I had as to the logistics just fine.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Apparently it took a long time for Kyrie to ready herself to commit 1 single murder against the woman she loathed the most and that drived her almost insane (and she was probably also pressured by the fact she had gotten pregnant).

Again, this line of thinking borders on almost surreal absurdity to me. In the real world, Kyrie had no bomb to erase the evidence and a motive tying her directly to the crime. People are putting forth this idea like Kyrie was working herself up to murder when it's really the opposite. Kyrie was always willing to murder Asumu from the very beginning, she just wasn't most likely willing to throw her life away in order to do it. The situation on Rokkenjima provides the perfect cover. It's the age old question, "what would you do if you knew you couldn't be caught?"

[Renall]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Though another interesting theory is that actually Yasu and Battler ganged up to kill everyone like in the Ougon game and Kyrie and Rudolf got involved.

Again though, you end up trading one vague motivation for another. Battler vanishes for six years, comes back and kills his family? He had no beef with the servants or Jessica/George that we know of. I mean the only motivation you end up on is his promise, and I somehow don't think he meant "If you're ever in trouble, I'll come riding on a white horse and bust a cap in my parents and cousins and everyone who works here."

Originally Posted by musouka

Actually, it isn't. Trying to figure out the triggers for people's actions isn't the same as trying to empathize with the emotions behind said actions. Battler's attempts at "chessboard thinking" all through the initial arcs failed because he was unable to be sympathetic to Beato. Likewise, Kyrie has some of the most off-base ideas about the reasons for Yasu's actions through the initial four arcs.

In ep1, literally the first episode, Battler is warned to be careful and pay attention to a woman's emotions by Kyrie. It's not her fault Battler screwed up implementing her ideas. She's never demonstrated a turn toward sociopathy except in the ep7 Tea Party, which is why it's so obviously uncharacteristic.

And again you've completely failed to address that Kyrie took 12 years to resolve to murder a single person she had every reason to despise as much as humanly possible due to a series of what she believed to be ridiculously unfortunate coincidences in her disfavor... but in fifteen minutes can conclude that murdering her husband's entire extended family and their employees is a perfectly palatable idea.

Originally Posted by musouka

Again, Kyrie was the person I had settled on as being the culprit long before Chiru. I just couldn't figure out how, because it seemed like she always died before any of the events could take place. EP7 answered any questions I had as to the logistics just fine.

So you decided she did it and then tried to make it fit. You sound like someone. Someone in this story. Someone who is not supposed to be seen as admirable.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Renall

Kyrie's motives just don't make any sense. If she's actually responsible, there's a giant gaping hole in her motivation that money alone cannot fill if this resolution is to have any meaningful credibility. When you build up an entire thematic construction of the strength and importance of family in the overall story and within ep8 itself, you are not allowed to just go "lol and then becuz mony kirie kilt dem."

Well, you seem to be forgetting the aspect that there are already 2 dead bodies in the room that Kyrie and Rudolph did not kill, so the whole set of events is already set into motion. It would have been a big step if it was actually as you said, but a person dying actually severely changes the whole game around again.
Even killing Rosa can be explained down to a necessary sacrifice under the law of a battlefield...since you can imagine both Eva (who just killed a woman and had her husband kill another man) and Rosa (who has the additional pressure of her personal life, her husband's return...basically everything depending on getting money FAST) just loosing their shit and endangering any kind of reasonable conversation.
I believe that Kyrie would not have done anything if not somebody had died by accident.

Her behavior in front of Eva is quite easily also explained as being under pressure. She didn't KNOW that Eva was still alive. In her calculation all the risks had been put aside as soon as all the adults were dead.

I do wonder though were you saw the message about the strength and importance of family being central to EP8? That's not what I read from it at all...
I rather read it as being, you have to find something for yourself to believe in in order to keep on living, because as soon as you give up hope you die. But sometimes the problem is that the evidence is so strong that even the strongest believe can't fight against it, and that is what leads to tragedy.

And it... kinda makes the villains right, which does not make any sense at all.

I have to say, I normally think you are an extremely clever guy, but I do not see any necessity for such a simplistic good and evil/black and white pattern to be applied to Umineko. Yes, Bernkastel is a bitch and she deserved to be punched in the face at the end, but she is doing it because she lost all touch with reality. Once they "taught her pain" they let her off the hook.
You can say a lot about Ryukishi's writing being flawed, but he does have a consistent style of not portraying anything or anyone as downright evil just for evil's sake. He portrays ignorance, arrogance, hybris.

Of course Bernkastel, Erika, and Featherine are kinda right. Ange was always spouting out lines about being ready and never being held back by anything, but she fooled herself.

Spoiler for EP8 Chapter 24:

Do you really have...the resolve to know the truth?
*snicker*
You didn't have it after all...resolve
What a foolish bunch. Do they think that you could jump from such a height and be alright?
A safety-net?
Do you really think that a safety-net that thin could actually save a human?

I, the witch of miracles, Bernkastel guarantee, a miracle like that would definitely not occur!
Ushiromiya Ange definitely dies in 1998
Ushiromiya Ange, in '98, sets off on a journey to know the truth, triggered by the death of Eva.
And definitely dies in 98!
Battler fought so much in order to bring the unhappy future you were heading towards down. But that was a useless struggle.

Bernkastel is technically just realistic with what she is saying...it's the emotional baggage that makes it hurt and her forgetting about it what makes her evil in our eyes.

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

You mean, Yasu deliberately under-watered a specific rose to make it sickly and hoped that Maria took the most likely path through the garden and happened to see it, in order for the bottle stories to match reality?

I suppose it's technically possible, given that Kanon was supposed to be in charge of the garden.

I think that is likely to be a plot that she can have concocted up even one year before, together with Maria. Maria seemed to know quite well why she had to be at the rose at certain points in time...
But yeah...you could also see Kanon's first appearance as "the gardener" already hinting towards his connection to the state of the rose.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Renall

Again though, you end up trading one vague motivation for another. Battler vanishes for six years, comes back and kills his family? He had no beef with the servants or Jessica/George that we know of. I mean the only motivation you end up on is his promise, and I somehow don't think he meant "If you're ever in trouble, I'll come riding on a white horse and bust a cap in my parents and cousins and everyone who works here."

Technically there are reasons given due to which Battler might resent his family. As Kyrie waited years before she build up the determination to kill Asumu he could have waited years to build up the determination to kill them.
But I'm not really trading vagues motivations, just culprits.
It had been discussed ab nauseam as Eva's diary doesn't give us motivations either.

We know the culprit in Prime had his/her own motivations be it gold, hate or love or whatever but they don't get developed at all.

It's all about Yasu's heart.

Though if Battler committed even only 1 murder this might explain better why Tohya loathed so much the idea he might be Battler and why Will disliked Battler and pushed the blame on him. Battler, in Tohya's perspective, would be a quite horrible person and it would be really scary to 'turn into Battler'.
It also would make sense how, if Ikuko is Yasu, she would try to keep him hidden from the rest of the world.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Renall

In ep1, literally the first episode, Battler is warned to be careful and pay attention to a woman's emotions by Kyrie. It's not her fault Battler screwed up implementing her ideas. She's never demonstrated a turn toward sociopathy except in the ep7 Tea Party, which is why it's so obviously uncharacteristic.

And you think she said that out of the goodness of her heart, because Kyrie feels bad for all the women who have had to deal with cheating husbands and lies about love? No, she was referring to herself as being dangerous. The quote is ironic.

Originally Posted by Renall

And again you've completely failed to address that Kyrie took 12 years to resolve to murder a single person she had every reason to despise as much as humanly possible due to a series of what she believed to be ridiculously unfortunate coincidences in her disfavor... but in fifteen minutes can conclude that murdering her husband's entire extended family and their employees is a perfectly palatable idea.

Let me ask you this. Do you think it would have taken Kyrie twelve years to "work up" the resolve to kill Asumu if she knew for a fact she wouldn't be implicated in the murder? If it was just as simple as flipping a switch and all the evidence would be erased? If you really do know Kyrie as well as you're claiming, I think you already know the answer. From there, it's only a small step as to why Kyrie would be willing to murder in the circumstances on Rokkenjima and would be less inclined to do it under other circumstances, and it has absolutely nothing to do with her being a good person.

[AuraTwilight]

Actually, it isn't. Trying to figure out the triggers for people's actions isn't the same as trying to empathize with the emotions behind said actions. Battler's attempts at "chessboard thinking" all through the initial arcs failed because he was unable to be sympathetic to Beato. Likewise, Kyrie has some of the most off-base ideas about the reasons for Yasu's actions through the initial four arcs.

Lol Kyrie has no idea who Yasu IS, how can she even begin to accurately predict anything about her? Ditto Battler. Beatrice presented herself as a murderous psychopath and that's what Battler attempted to understand. It's not Kyrie's or Battler's fault that Yasu sent the wrong message.

You know, communicating. It's kind of her fatal shortcoming on a thematic level.

Which is the point. It's need for money AND ruthlessness. Kyrie wasn't the only person that killed someone in the EP7 Tea Party. She is, however, the only one that kept her head and figured out the easiest, most logical way out of the mess once the first shot was fired (aka, "kill everyone") because she's been characterized as someone ruthless and willing to kill in order to get her way.

What about the fact that money was addressed to Rudolf meaning that Kyrie and her husband were almost certainly brought in as Yasu's accomplices and thus have absolutely nothing to gain from shooting people up and everything to lose, including their own lives?

Isn't Kyrie supposed to be smart?

Again, Kyrie was the person I had settled on as being the culprit long before Chiru. I just couldn't figure out how, because it seemed like she always died before any of the events could take place. EP7 answered any questions I had as to the logistics just fine.

Holy confirmation bias, Batman! Your methodology and thought process is identical to a certain Chiru character who is demonstrated to be absolutely off-base and doing to wrong on every point and thus your opinions and how you reached them are utterly worthless to the conversation!

Again, this line of thinking borders on almost surreal absurdity to me. In the real world, Kyrie had no bomb to erase the evidence and a motive tying her directly to the crime.

The bomb wouldn't do anything. You don't think Kyrie would figure out that MERELY SURVIVING would make her the top suspect in everything and that a GODDAMN BOMB will erase any doubt that it was an accident and she just INNOCENTLY happened to survive?

Isn't Kyrie supposed to be smart or something?

People are putting forth this idea like Kyrie was working herself up to murder when it's really the opposite. Kyrie was always willing to murder Asumu from the very beginning, she just wasn't most likely willing to throw her life away in order to do it. The situation on Rokkenjima provides the perfect cover. It's the age old question, "what would you do if you knew you couldn't be caught?"

It's like you didn't read Episode 6 at all.

Then again, you're the same person who said that the culprit is a literal goddamn sociopath. What's the answer to this novel about understanding others, seeing the heart, and realizing that no one is a fundamentally good or bad person and things are complicated?

Amoral ruthless sociopaths completely unable and unwilling to feel anything for others and are fundamentally unrealistically bad people! YEA, that makes sense.

Let me ask you this. Do you think it would have taken Kyrie twelve years to "work up" the resolve to kill Asumu if she knew for a fact she wouldn't be implicated in the murder? If it was just as simple as flipping a switch and all the evidence would be erased? If you really do know Kyrie as well as you're claiming, I think you already know the answer.

Rudolf could always SUSPECT AND RESENT her for it on the mere possibility, hate her all his life, and never get with her as she desired.

You know, Kyrie tries to like....HAVE things when she contemplates doing bad stuff.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

What about the fact that money was addressed to Rudolf meaning that Kyrie and her husband were almost certainly brought in as Yasu's accomplices and thus have absolutely nothing to gain from shooting people up and everything to lose, including their own lives?

The money was sent to everyone, not just Rudolf. Gee, I guess EP5 was right all along!

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

The bomb wouldn't do anything. You don't think Kyrie would figure out that MERELY SURVIVING would make her the top suspect in everything and that a GODDAMN BOMB will erase any doubt that it was an accident and she just INNOCENTLY happened to survive?

It sure must have been hard for Eva, taking care of Ange, running the family business, and spending the rest of her life in jail.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Well, you seem to be forgetting the aspect that there are already 2 dead bodies in the room that Kyrie and Rudolph did not kill, so the whole set of events is already set into motion. It would have been a big step if it was actually as you said, but a person dying actually severely changes the whole game around again.
Even killing Rosa can be explained down to a necessary sacrifice under the law of a battlefield...since you can imagine both Eva (who just killed a woman and had her husband kill another man) and Rosa (who has the additional pressure of her personal life, her husband's return...basically everything depending on getting money FAST) just loosing their shit and endangering any kind of reasonable conversation.
I believe that Kyrie would not have done anything if not somebody had died by accident.

While the 2 dead bodies can be an incentive it's not like Kyrie had killed them. As Rosa said they could push the blame on Eva. Kyrie, at least in the Teaparty, plans on having the gold destroyed so she'll be fine with the police discovering it and taking it away.

I would understand the scene more if Rosa, Eva or Hideyoshi had looked threatening. Eva (and possibly Hideyoshi) killed already 2 people so in the excitation of the moment one can think they're willing to murder more but, apparently, the one that gets shot first is Rosa. Unless Rosa too was also an incident, and got shoot in an attempt to aim at Hideyoshi and Eva (it's said there's a gun whose aim is slightly off but can it be so off?) that looked threatening.

It still seems a little bit forced but it can work. Eva might have written in her diary it was an incident and she didn't aim to kill anyone but Kyrie and Rudolf might have thought differently... only as Eva was sure she didn't aim at killing anyone she couldn't figure they suspected she was a threat.

Then... we a huge stack of corpses to deal with and maybe not so cool as we might though, they decided to get rid of whoever could testify against them... namely the Rokkenjima residents.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Of course Bernkastel, Erika, and Featherine are kinda right. Ange was always spouting out lines about being ready and never being held back by anything, but she fooled herself.

Spoiler for EP8 Chapter 24:

Do you really have...the resolve to know the truth?
*snicker*
You didn't have it after all...resolve
What a foolish bunch. Do they think that you could jump from such a height and be alright?
A safety-net?
Do you really think that a safety-net that thin could actually save a human?

I, the witch of miracles, Bernkastel guarantee, a miracle like that would definitely not occur!
Ushiromiya Ange definitely dies in 1998
Ushiromiya Ange, in '98, sets off on a journey to know the truth, triggered by the death of Eva.
And definitely dies in 98!
Battler fought so much in order to bring the unhappy future you were heading towards down. But that was a useless struggle.

Bernkastel is technically just realistic with what she is saying...it's the emotional baggage that makes it hurt and her forgetting about it what makes her evil in our eyes.

Well, yes, one of the keypoints is that although Battler might seem overprotective he too is actually right in thinking Ange can't handle the truth as she is.
Bern, giving her what she demanded claiming she could handle it, only made this more obvious.

[Leafsnail]

I'm pretty sure Battler did not kill anyone, except possibly in defense of someone else (Yasu?). In every single episode he rails against the senselessness of killing even people he does not particularly know or care about. You would have to completely ignore his personality as presented in order to make him the culprit, which is why Black Battler exists.

Originally Posted by Renall

What about anything would lead to the assumption that Eva would survive, though? They've been told about the bomb, but do they know how it's set? Does Kyrie expect it to go off or not go off? Is she expecting it to be set? Was she planning to do it herself? Assuming Kyrie is smart enough here to consider all these possible outcomes also runs counter to the idea that Kyrie was dumb enough to think she could get away with needless mass murder. Which one is it?

According to the ep7 Tea Party, yeah they do both know how the bomb is set. Kyrie presumably set the bomb to go off in order to cover her crimes, but Eva could survive by simply turning it off after she wins the duel. Therefore a chance of Eva surviving clearly existed, and Kyrie should prepare for that contigency when she's talking.

Kyrie did almost get away with mass murder. The one factor she didn't consider was Eva surviving a shot to the face. Once it became clear that she had made a miscalculation (ie she saw that Eva was still alive and had a gun) she recalculated and realized there was at least a chance of Eva surviving and her being killed.

Originally Posted by Renall

Kyrie's motives just don't make any sense. If she's actually responsible, there's a giant gaping hole in her motivation that money alone cannot fill if this resolution is to have any meaningful credibility.

Sure - that's why we hear about the mind-blowing secret that Rudolf's been keeping from her for 18 years and the fact that she's capable of committing murder if she's pushed to the edge.

Originally Posted by Renall

When you build up an entire thematic construction of the strength and importance of family in the overall story and within ep8 itself, you are not allowed to just go "lol and then becuz mony kirie kilt dem." What about all that other stuff?

Who does Kyrie consider to be her family, though? I would say the answer is "her children and her husband". Not her in-laws who look down on her and put her dead last in the family ranking. Not the servants and doctor hanging around on the island. Everything she does in the episode 7 Tea Party is consistent with her loving her immediate family in her own twisted way. She furthers her bond with Rudolf by becoming a partner in crime. She protects Ange by obtaining the money she needs to pay back her debts. The Battler part is vague, but we know she doesn't kill him.

Originally Posted by Renall

It puts Battler right back squarely in the position of being a patronizing ass about things and excusing away the actions of ruthless murderers to spare Ange's feelings because she supposedly can't handle it. And it... kinda makes the villains right, which does not make any sense at all.

I know your personal feelings on this matter, and I agree that the conclusion of Umineko is difficult to accept, but I think it makes clear thematic sense. Part of Umineko's message is that often people in difficult situations require "magic" (or self delusion, if you prefer) in order to be happy, and that ripping down their illusions is not productive in any way. We see this in Maria, Yasu and Natsuhi most clearly.

I guess the hard part is the families of the other victims, and I'm really not sure how to justify that. Hideyoshi is explicitly stated to not have any family and Kyrie was estranged from hers, but we know for a fact that Nanjo and Kumasawa had kids and there's nothing stopping Natsuhi or Gohda from having surviving family members too. Maybe we're supposed to come to the conclusion that Nanjo and Kumasawa's families would be upset to learn about their relative's part in the tragedy and that Natsuhi and Gohda just coincidentally have no-one outside the island who cares about them? Or maybe Ange could offer them the opportunity to learn the truth. In any case, I hope the ep8 manga talks about the other 1998 survivors.

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

You mean, Yasu deliberately under-watered a specific rose to make it sickly and hoped that Maria took the most likely path through the garden and happened to see it, in order for the bottle stories to match reality?

I suppose it's technically possible, given that Kanon was supposed to be in charge of the garden.

Yeah, I'm not an expert on roses but you could probably make one sickly just by applying some chemical or putting a bag over it or something.

Originally Posted by Renall

Okay, how did you gather that from ep1-4 again? How do you get from Kyrie's "Man it took me twelve years to get the gumption to murder one person I hated more than anything, and I was doing it entirely for love" to "Y'know what, I'm just gonna murder everyone I see because CASH MONEYS."

How about if she learnt that the 12 years of building up murderous feelings were inflicted upon her by the man she loves? The terrible rage she felt then would likely return, only far stronger.

Originally Posted by Renall

I'm... not sure where you draw the conclusion that Kyrie, a person who strongly influenced Battler to think like the other person is thinking, lacks empathy. Chessboard thinking is, quite literally, empathizing with someone in order to try to figure out how they would act in the same situation. Kyrie's lies to Eva in the very Tea Party you're referencing further show how clever she is at reading people emotionally, as disowning Ange is a specific ploy to elicit sympathy with Eva so that Eva will be kind to Ange in the future.

There's a difference between being able to emphasize with someone's feelings and having a moral code that compels you to not trample over them. Kyrie was raised to be the leader of a mafia group - do you think they would have taught her to respect the feelings of non-family members? She did leave them, but that aspect of her upbringing would surely remain.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by musouka

The money was sent to everyone, not just Rudolf. Gee, I guess EP5 was right all along!

That's something we don't know. Actually Eva was in need of money short after the tragedy and had to sell the library. Though of couse she might have not felt like touching THAT money.