Valvrave the Liberator - General Anime Discussion

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by mangakid95

L-Elf isn't dying anytime soon. If we pay attention to his role in the series, he's actually more relevant to the series than the actual protagonist. Haruto's only got a complicated love life & vampire status going for him. His personality is flat & as a character he's not outstanding.

While in L-Elf's case, his personality is the most complex, he's the reason why MC & his people have lasted this long, the overall plot of the series is his plan to bring revolution to his homeland. He also possesses mysterious elements that aren't explored (probably on purpose). He may be the deuteragonist, but most times he feels more like he's the protagonist.

He trumps the main cast in their defining aspects, In fighting he (can waste Yamada with no effort) trumps Yamada(Thunder), In intelligence/hacking he (hacked the entire school) trumps Akira, in determination he trumps Haruto (Ep1, little speech about ham & eggs), in political strategy he trumps Shoko. Saki & Kyuuma, haven't really shown any key abilities or traits, so I can't make a comparison.

Though, I have to admit that the only one who is keeping up with him at this point is Shoko. Her unorthodox methods are keeping her on par with him, they also think similarly in terms of political strategy (They had the same plan to hold the VVV hostage).

In military strategy, he's the only one in New Jior that can provide this. Not counting the Physics teacher who purposely stays out of everything.

I can safely assume that he's the one that shaped the third galactic reich into what it is now(In the future).

If he had a Valvrave as well than he wouldn't even need Haruto or the such, he would only need Shoko due to her position and ability to rally the students behind her even craziest of ideas. L-Elf, earlier, still doesn't understand why his plan was initially rejected, when he first gave it over to Shoko as he correctly guessed she was a natural leader to the students, as it was the most logical.

Since Shoko doesn't work off Logic and he works strictly with Logic they even each other out towards a functioning Government that cares for the people but also is realistic.

So I agree with you that so far only Shoko has kept up with because he simply cannot read her and she offers skills he simply lacks because he isn't a peoples person and thinks only through cold logic.

[Fjoergyn]

He has always been the protagonist, unfortunately Haruto enters the generic MC list that abound on the screen. I'm eager to know the past of L-11 and what their true relationship with the princess.

[Destined_Fate]

From what I'm guessing it cannot be love as the interview did say that if L-Elf must fall in love than Shoko is the best choice. Thus I would guess that L-Elf isn't in love yet and hasn't been "in love" before.

[Key Board]

I believe that

He was 7 years old when he met Lieselotte and since then has never met her again

He is devoted and loves Lieselotte, but I don't think he is "in love" with her

which is the context here

[Kurohane]

Love is stronger than being "in love".

[Destined_Fate]

Not really.

If you're in love than there's also love. It's why if people are given a choice between your beloved wife/husband or your best friend many will quickly pick the beloved wife no matter how much they love their best friend without a second thought.

[shalala]

Lieselotte did save his life. Soo I guess that he feels in debt to her for doing so. Plus the fact that her life may not be all that good soo he is starting that war to save her. Like she did to him.

[Destined_Fate]

L-Elf does seem like the person that doesn't like leaving things unpaid or something. So debt to the Princess means that he may feel like he owes it to her and himself to save her from her current situation.

Makes me wonder. Think L-Elf may use the secret he has with Shoko to blackmail her at one point? Such as her trying to stop him from going alone to save the Princess and he forces her to allow him by saying he'll tell Haruto the truth if she doesn't keep it hush hush?

[MK-95-]

Sorry for the really long Multi-quote...Wasn't here for a while.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

If he had a Valvrave as well than he wouldn't even need Haruto or the such, he would only need Shoko due to her position and ability to rally the students behind her even craziest of ideas. L-Elf, earlier, still doesn't understand why his plan was initially rejected, when he first gave it over to Shoko as he correctly guessed she was a natural leader to the students, as it was the most logical.

Since Shoko doesn't work off Logic and he works strictly with Logic they even each other out towards a functioning Government that cares for the people but also is realistic.

So I agree with you that so far only Shoko has kept up with because he simply cannot read her and she offers skills he simply lacks because he isn't a peoples person and thinks only through cold logic.

Originally Posted by Fjoergyn

He has always been the protagonist, unfortunately Haruto enters the generic MC list that abound on the screen. I'm eager to know the past of L-11 and what their true relationship with the princess.

Agreed.

Actually, for me, L-Elf is the character that makes Valvrave interesting. If it weren't for him, I'd probably never get passed episode 1. I'm generally interested in his past, his relationships (A-Drei, Haruto, Shoko, Liesolette & Cain) are dynamic & also interesting.

He is also the most entertaining character IMO. Seeing his plans unfold, seeing him fight & his interactions with the other characters, never disappoint me.

It may sound as though I'm fanboying L-Elf, but believe me, I'm being 100% honest here.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

From what I'm guessing it cannot be love as the interview did say that if L-Elf must fall in love than Shoko is the best choice. Thus I would guess that L-Elf isn't in love yet and hasn't been "in love" before.

Originally Posted by Key Board

I believe that

He was 7 years old when he met Lieselotte and since then has never met her again

He is devoted and loves Lieselotte, but I don't think he is "in love" with her

which is the context here

Originally Posted by Kurohane

Love is stronger than being "in love".

Yes, I also think he loves Liesolette, but not in the context of "in love," but rather the love you'd have for the person who you idolize. She saved his life, so out of obligation he will be absolutely loyal to her. This can be interpreted as love but not "romantic love."

One example of this is Guilford's loyalty to Cornelia (Code Geass). His level of loyalty can be easily mistaken as love, look back at all their interactions in CG, they interacted somewhat like a couple.

L-elf has yet to be truly be "in love" & as said in that interview, Shoko is the likely candidate for him to fall for. So all eyes on the L-11 x Shoko ship for now.

Originally Posted by shalala

Lieselotte did save his life. Soo I guess that he feels in debt to her for doing so. Plus the fact that her life may not be all that good soo he is starting that war to save her. Like she did to him.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

L-Elf does seem like the person that doesn't like leaving things unpaid or something. So debt to the Princess means that he may feel like he owes it to her and himself to save her from her current situation.

Makes me wonder. Think L-Elf may use the secret he has with Shoko to blackmail her at one point? Such as her trying to stop him from going alone to save the Princess and he forces her to allow him by saying he'll tell Haruto the truth if she doesn't keep it hush hush?

Yea, he seems the type that follows everything to the letter. If he becomes indebted to someone, he'd do everything in his power to repay it. Evidenced by his determination to bring revolution to Dorssia. He's willing to align with the enemy if it means his plan is realized a few years earlier. (He told Haruto that the VVV contract subtracts 5 yrs from his revolution plan.)

So, I also agree that he's doing all this just to repay his debt to Liesolette.

[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Not really.

If you're in love than there's also love. It's why if people are given a choice between your beloved wife/husband or your best friend many will quickly pick the beloved wife no matter how much they love their best friend without a second thought.

No offense, but that's messed up. I use this example to commonly remember that both people are important. It's a situation you never want to find yourself in, because it really is an impossible choice. You can argue that the lover has a closer relationship with the chooser than the best friend, but to just choose the lover without a second thought, proves in the end, the best friend never meant anything at all, and that shouldn't be true. It's synonymous with choosing a family member or five strangers from a fire. Only in this case, both people are important to the chooser. Even though, the person may have a stronger bond with one than the other, the other person is still important too. You can't simply choose one or the other based on a scale of importance.

What I mean by love being stronger is that a person chooses to spend their life with a partner, not swayed by feelings of infatuation. "In love" is being swayed by emotions. Love and "in love" are commonly interchanged, but its a misconception. This is most likely Haruto and Shoko's case. They are "in love" with each other than actually love each other.

[Key Board]

I don't think you should be with/marry someone who you are not in love with.
because that will always cause regret and make you look back in the end, no matter how many years have passed.
Kimi no Iru Machi is an example of this.

You do NOT marry someone out of duty, responsibility or familiarity.

But I know arranged marriages follow a reverse philosophy. Ie: strangers now, fall in love later.

I think Saki believes in the former, which is why she refused the proposal. She wants Haruto to at least look at her as a woman he can yearn for. I believe she mentioned it once, a love that is not returned will not last.

as for Haruto and Shoko. I think the issue is that Haruto is becoming a different person that the boy she fell in love with. Not just physically, either.

[iCK]

Originally Posted by Key Board

I don't think you should be with/marry someone who you are not in love with.
because that will always cause regret and make you look back in the end, no matter how many years have passed.
Kimi no Iru Machi is an example of this.

You do NOT marry someone out of duty, responsibility or familiarity.

But I know arranged marriages follow a reverse philosophy. Ie: strangers now, fall in love later.

I think Saki believes in the former, which is why she refused the proposal. She wants Haruto to at least look at her as a woman he can yearn for. I believe she mentioned it once, a love that is not returned will not last.

as for Haruto and Shoko. I think the issue is that Haruto is becoming a different person that the boy she fell in love with. Not just physically, either.

I think if Haruto didn't say take responsibility, she would have said yes. She defintely wants Haruto to look at her more than a teammate and someone he should feel responsible for because of that fiasco.

But, the quote you typed is wrong. The quote Saki actually said to Haruto was "a love with nothing to gain will never last". Meaning since Haruto and Saki are vampires and Shoko is human, it will never work out. She is implying that she is a more fit to be with Haruto and really does want to be with him.

The only reason why actor's don't tell us a complete answer, like how her VA dodged the question about how she loves Haruto was because she isn't allowed to spoil anything about the series before it airs. It would contradict the contract and get themselves in a shit load of trouble.

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by Kurohane

No offense, but that's messed up. I use this example to commonly remember that both people are important. It's a situation you never want to find yourself in, because it really is an impossible choice. You can argue that the lover has a closer relationship with the chooser than the best friend, but to just choose the lover without a second thought, proves in the end, the best friend never meant anything at all, and that shouldn't be true. It's synonymous with choosing a family member or five strangers from a fire. Only in this case, both people are important to the chooser. Even though, the person may have a stronger bond with one than the other, the other person is still important too. You can't simply choose one or the other based on a scale of importance.

What I mean by love being stronger is that a person chooses to spend their life with a partner, not swayed by feelings of infatuation. "In love" is being swayed by emotions. Love and "in love" are commonly interchanged, but its a misconception. This is most likely Haruto and Shoko's case. They are "in love" with each other than actually love each other.

How is it messed up exactly? It's human nature. You may love your friends a great deal but if it's between your beloved friend or your beloved wife/husband/lover the choice is pretty obvious. So no, it isn't impossible. It's a cruddy situation but the choice isn't impossible at all.

That's not true at all, choosing the lover over the best friend doesn't mean they're pointless or meaningless. Fact of the matter is that no matter how much you love your best friend you can never grow to love them as much as the person you share your most intimate and vulnerable moments with.

Scale is your word, not mine. Also, it's a far more even situation than your Family Memnber vs 5 Strangers.

I see your point on that regard. Shoko and Haruto are "In Love" but they've never sorted out how far that goes towards "Love Love".

That and I really want Saki x Haruto to happen so I can get my "Love Love Combo Attack" when Valvrave gets in Super Robot Wars and get my Love Bonus!

[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by Key Board

I don't think you should be with/marry someone who you are not in love with.
because that will always cause regret and make you look back in the end, no matter how many years have passed.
Kimi no Iru Machi is an example of this.

You do NOT marry someone out of duty, responsibility or familiarity.

But I know arranged marriages follow a reverse philosophy. Ie: strangers now, fall in love later.

I think Saki believes in the former, which is why she refused the proposal. She wants Haruto to at least look at her as a woman he can yearn for. I believe she mentioned it once, a love that is not returned will not last.

as for Haruto and Shoko. I think the issue is that Haruto is becoming a different person that the boy she fell in love with. Not just physically, either.

If this about my post, I didn't mean to say there's no affection at all with love itself, just that the drive isn't affection itself. Look at episode 10, with how Haruto wanted to leave to look for Shoko's father. It's a clear example of being driven by the moment that would have ultimately led to disaster. That's the culminations of what being "in love" is. You're acting on your emotions, mainly. You'd do anything to make the feeling last.

However, loving someone is different in that you feel affection yes, but you're not driven by it. You have far more control over yourself, and it isn't all "rainbows and sunshine". It develops from knowing this person, understanding this person, and wanting to make that person happy. A selfless love. I can argue Saki's actions was a true display of love, because when it came down to the important moments, she put Haruto's happiness and well-being above her own.

I'm not saying "in love" doesn't turn into true love, but that's only after the feelings die down, and you start to think "do I truly want to be with this person?"

[Destined_Fate]

So what I'm getting from all that is that the love between Shoko and Haruto isn't stable and is more of the moment thing. Neither character actually understands the other person truly.

So that's an issue... Funny enough Saki knows more about what makes Haruto tick then Shoko and L-Elf knows more of Shoko than Haruto does.

[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by iCK

I think if Haruto didn't say take responsibility, she would have said yes. She defintely wants Haruto to look at her more than a teammate and someone he should feel responsible for because of that fiasco.

If she wanted him to feel responsible, she wouldn't have taken her current choice of actions.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

How is it messed up exactly? It's human nature. You may love your friends a great deal but if it's between your beloved friend or your beloved wife/husband/lover the choice is pretty obvious. So no, it isn't impossible. It's a cruddy situation but the choice isn't impossible at all.

That's not true at all, choosing the lover over the best friend doesn't mean they're pointless or meaningless. Fact of the matter is that no matter how much you love your best friend you can never grow to love them as much as the person you share your most intimate and vulnerable moments with.

Scale is your word, not mine. Also, it's a far more even situation than your Family Memnber vs 5 Strangers.

I see your point on that regard. Shoko and Haruto are "In Love" but they've never sorted out how far that goes towards "Love Love".

That and I really want Saki x Haruto to happen so I can get my "Love Love Combo Attack" when Valvrave gets in Super Robot Wars and get my Love Bonus!

So, in Naruto episode 5, in Kakashi's example, Sakura obviously should have killed Naruto to save Sasuke, because she loved him.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

So what I'm getting from all that is that the love between Shoko and Haruto isn't stable and is more of the moment thing. Neither character actually understands the other person truly.

So that's an issue... Funny enough Saki knows more about what makes Haruto tick then Shoko and L-Elf knows more of Shoko than Haruto does.

Well, if they truly understood one another, they wouldn't need to keep their current secrets, would they? Plus, I used that example of Haruto, because it's similar to being in love, not that it is one. With both, you're being driven by emotions.

[Destined_Fate]

Haven't watched early Naruto in forever so I can't answer that.

That is true, they do'nt really understand or trust each other. Shoko seems to trust L-Elf more than Haruto with secrets.

[Fjoergyn]

There are truths that better shut them up because they only bring pain. I do not think Shoko rely more on L-11. She intends to prevent further suffering to Haruto, her love is unconditional.

To Shoko L-Elf is a stranger who is helping them. It confuses me quite that kind of relationship can have, L-elf did not give me a good feeling in loving relationship.

[iCK]

Originally Posted by Kurohane

If she wanted him to feel responsible, she wouldn't have taken her current choice of actions.



So, in Naruto episode 5, in Kakashi's example, Sakura obviously should have killed Naruto to save Sasuke, because she loved him.
.

Well, if they truly understood one another, they wouldn't need to keep their current secrets, would they? Plus, I used that example of Haruto, because it's similar to being in love, not that it is one. With both, you're being driven by emotions.

What I don't get is why can't people read correctly on this forum in general. They're reading way too fast to actually comprehend what I am typing.

I said "I think if Haruto didn't say take responsibility, she would have said yes".
This means if Haruto didn't tell Saki that he wants to take responsibility for what happened at the end of episode, she would have said yes if he just asked her to marry him. She was obviously happy when he asked and became so flustered that she had to turn her back to him and hide her blushing face. But when he said "I want to take responsibility for what happened" she sighed and turned around to begin to spout out lies saying that it happens all the time. He noticed she was lying and confronted her, but Saki interrupted him saying, I know you were being controlled by the spirit, it's not your fault. Go rescue Shoko.

I also typed that She definitely wants Haruto to look at her more than a teammate and someone he should feel responsible for because of that fiasco.
Translates into
Saki wants Haruto to look at her as a lover because he loves her and not as someone he would take responsibility for raping or as a teammate.

[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by iCK

What I don't get is why can't people read correctly on this forum in general. They're reading way too fast to actually comprehend what I am typing.

I said "I think if Haruto didn't say take responsibility, she would have said yes".
This means if Haruto didn't tell Saki that he wants to take responsibility for what happened at the end of episode, she would have said yes if he just asked her to marry him. She was obviously happy when he asked and became so flustered that she had to turn her back to him and hide her blushing face. But when he said "I want to take responsibility for what happened" she sighed and turned around to begin to spout out lies saying that it happens all the time. He noticed she was lying and confronted her, but Saki interrupted him saying, I know you were being controlled by the spirit, it's not your fault. Go rescue Shoko.

I also typed that She definitely wants Haruto to look at her more than a teammate and someone he should feel responsible for because of that fiasco.
Translates into
Saki wants Haruto to look at her as a lover because he loves her and not as someone he would take responsibility for raping or as a teammate.

I'm sorry, that I couldn't understand you. I noticed you said that, but it was contradicted by what I believe is a typo, now that you're clear. Here is what you said:

I think if Haruto didn't say take responsibility, she would have said yes. She defintely wants Haruto to look at her more than a teammate and someone he should feel responsible for because of that fiasco.

I couldn't understand your point, because you appear to have gone both ways. So yes, I looked over your post enough to notice this.