US Elections 2012 Part II: The Conventions, Debates and Election results

[Rahan]

The european dream is gone, as far as am concerned. There is no project anymore. The Brussels technocracy is already the most hated organization on the continent. No one wants more Europe, and the national links to EU will start declining once the far right politicians get in power locally, which won't take more than a decade.

Northern and Southern Europe won't hold together,nor will East and West
On a national level, Belgium is going to split and Catalonia will secede from Spain. ETA and IRA will come back stronger than ever while the rift between the rich North of Italy and the poor South will keep widening.

~pessimist, me ?~

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by Jinto

The EU-nations are not as dependent as you think yet. But thats not really the issue here, its just a strawman - you clearly are against the RIAA/MPAA and the attempts to make supranational law. US law is not applicaple to other nations. The only thing that makes other nations follow US law is powerful US-embargos.

It is two sides of the same coin. I am against of the usa practice of making other nations adopt their laws (the riia/mpaa example is one of many) and the only reason they do it to countries in europe is because no nation in europe is equal (mostly economically) to the usa. If the EU did not exist I would just say "though luck" but there is an EU that if truly unified would stand to the usa on equal terms if only they weren't stalling into creating a true union. I am a believer that concentration of power (political, economical, military) is bad for the common man, we lived half of the 20th century with two superpowers, atm there is only one, china will become a second one in a few years, but a world with three superpowers (if the EU became a true union) would be even better, the less concentration the better balance.

[Ithekro]

Originally Posted by GDB

They're trying to break away from the country. They don't give a damn about whether it's legal or not.

It means if they try to break away illegally, they are not recognized as countries, but as rebels and will be put down as such via military force.

I doubt they want that.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by ogon_bat

I am not saying they do not have some pretty nice hardware and very profesional personnel, but do tell me how strong the USA military would be if we divide them into division tied to every state and controlled by each governor.

They'd find it harder to get into illegal wars. That'd be about it.

I have heard that "sovereignty" speech in my own country so many times my ears could bleed, here and there it is just an excuse for politicians to keep their power cliques instead of doing the greater good. Britain, France, Germany, Spain, etc. will not loose their national identities if their economies, their laws and their governments merge, they have their own language, culture and history. But raising the sovereignty flag is just an excuse to keep living in the 20th century.

Actually, our politicians are generally more pro-Europe than the general population. The sovereignist talk comes from leaders of minority parties. I guess people who actually govern would prefer to govern the whole of Europe rather than the particular country they're in.

Originally Posted by ogon_bat

That is the problem, you still have a nationalist mentality that prevents you from seeing the bigger picture, the true potential of the EU is not being attained because of that,do you think that China is an homogeneous country with only one language or one culture? or are you going to tell me the USA is homogeneous, has one official language? or the you even believe that Mexico has an homogeneous culture, ethnicity and language and therefore the military should be divided? Stop drinking the sovereignty kool-aid and you might start seeing the bigger picture.

You might as well ask why Mexico isn't part of the United States of Latin America. Or why the UN isn't an actual world government. In the fullness of time, all of that may come to pass, but not today or tomorrow. For one simple reason: we don't want to.


And frankly, the military reason is the least of our concerns. Our respective armies serve our interests adequately enough. If there's a theater we want to get to, we can, and we have no ambition to become the new World Police.

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

You may not have noticed, but most people only care about the stock market when it seriously messes up. The DOW losing 5 points doesn't quite inflame passions the way death, destruction and war does. I'm not saying no one cares, but the man on the street (who doesn't read financial newspapers ) can take it or leave it. I don't think I've met many Irish people who really care what way the fiscal cliff is resolved, because we have little skin in the game regarding taxes.

Indeed. And the fiscal cliff fear is exaggerated in the first place, especially from the POV of foreigners. (End of Bush tax cuts and military spending cuts? Why didn't they jump years ago?)

I think you'll find that there are equivalents of the MPAA and RIAA around the world with just as much influence. America doesn't control the world as much as you think...

Indeed. We've got our own lobbies and interests. The USA could get sucked down a hole tomorrow, piracy would still be illegal, and so would cocaine.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by ogon_bat

I am well aware of the examples (except belgium) at hand but I would suggest that of instead another layer on top of that, simply dissolve and let the top layer be the EU, not the goverment at london, madrid or rome. In the past it has already been done with the roman empire and it worked for centuries, nowadays with the advances in telecommunications it would be even easier.

I don't think it's a good idea to compare modern Europe to a millenias old empire that was held together by military force alone, and where slavery was routine.

Sadly these 70 years of peace have been the result of the menace that represented the USSR and the warsaw pact (and I am not talking about communism, I am talking about a the clear and present danger of a military invasion if they lowered their guard) than of some real advancement of the human being. It saddens me that people like to think "we have advanced so much since then, we are beyond that kind of barbaric behavior" because that line of thought lends to repeating the errors of the past, we haven't really changed, if anything we have technology which makes easier than ever to kill people with efficiency unheard off 70 years ago.

The USA may not have changed much in terms of bloodthirstyness, but Europe has. The kind of Jingoistic rhetoric that used to be routine in Europe is now unheard of. We may as well be hippy peaceniks. Europeans aren't so keen on killing each other anymore.

Originally Posted by Rahan

Northern and Southern Europe won't hold together,nor will East and West
On a national level, Belgium is going to split and Catalonia will secede from Spain. ETA and IRA will come back stronger than ever while the rift between the rich North of Italy and the poor South will keep widening.

The IRA is a joke. Ever talked a young Northern Irish Catholic? Fervent dreams of a 32 county Ireland are not foremost on their minds, I can assure you.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

And frankly, the military reason is the least of our concerns. Our respective armies serve our interests adequately enough. If there's a theater we want to get to, we can, and we have no ambition to become the new World Police.

Indeed. Where it has counted (Balkans, Libya), European Militaries were more then up to the task. In terms of Russia, well we do have nukes...

Indeed. We've got our own lobbies and interests. The USA could get sucked down a hole tomorrow, piracy would still be illegal, and so would cocaine.

People seem to forget that we invented Western Capitalism. America isn't our corporate overlord, we've got plenty of our own fortune 500 companies.

[Irenicus]

Maybe ogon_bat is just really, really pissed at the TPP?

Ironically enough one of the European Union's good points is that it allows the collective multitude of European nations to blithely dismiss the USA on such matters.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Indeed. And the fiscal cliff fear is exaggerated in the first place, especially from the POV of foreigners. (End of Bush tax cuts and military spending cuts? Why didn't they jump years ago?)

The Obama payroll tax cuts to "the middle class" (American rhetoric for everybody not part of the filthy rich, we never admit we have an actual, and vast, working class) will also end, since it was a compromise extension made with the intention to end after the election. It will be an austerity shock not unlike, but much milder, to something imposed on Greece and Spain, once next year's taxes come around, but that's actually a few months after January. Less consumer spending to run the consumer machine and all.

But the overall effects are certainly being exaggerated by politicians with pants on fire and their Wall Street lemming allies, who will crash the US economy just out of utter lemming-ness because ohmigodtheskyisfalling. That's one of the reason your politicians and economists may worry about another US lapse into recession, since even if the actual markets and goods transactions are relatively sheltered, the lemming mentality and incredible fragility of the modern financial world (I imagine this will be the greatest joke of our epoch, if we ever make out of it alive) ensures that you *will* suffer the effects, like in 2008, though again not remotely as severe.

And the military-industrial complex can piss off anyway. The cuts will not "trickle down" (haha) that harshly upon the rest of the economy, though it will hurt some industry-dependent localities, and it'll make them stop wasting...or wasting less. The United States can run a world class military just fine on a budget that's, oh, three times of China's as opposed to five.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Irenicus

But the overall effects are certainly being exaggerated by politicians with pants on fire and their Wall Street lemming allies, who will crash the US economy just out of utter lemming-ness because ohmigodtheskyisfalling. That's one of the reason your politicians and economists may worry about another US lapse into recession, since even if the actual markets and goods transactions are relatively sheltered, the lemming mentality and incredible fragility of the modern financial world (I imagine this will be the greatest joke of our epoch, if we ever make out of it alive) ensures that you *will* suffer the effects, like in 2008, though again not remotely as severe.

We're already in the middle of a shit shower. What's one more flying cow?

Originally Posted by Ithekro

It means if they try to break away illegally, they are not recognized as countries, but as rebels and will be put down as such via military force.

I doubt they want that.

They can always try to convince the 36 other states to let them go. The ones who cost money might have a shot...

By the way, any idea what the "reasoning" behind the North Dakotan petition to have New York secede?

[Ithekro]

If that is a viable procedure, and the US government agrees to release them, they can go.

The North Dakotan was either trolling, or thinks New York is the source of the "problems" as New York politically seems to have sway in the US. Or more accurately the wealthy of New York have sway. (Wall Street for one, but also much of the Old Money is in New York.) Add to this the Jewish vote, various older ethnic groups that came over in the 1800s (Irish, Italians, and such) and you get New York (or probably more specifically New York City).

In terms of influance in media, it is divided between New York and California (Hollywood) for the most part. Two of the largest populated states in the Union.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Irenicus

Maybe ogon_bat is just really, really pissed at the TPP?

I think ogon_bat just want a one world government because... well, I don't know why, since he seems to think the Roman (and why not throw the Mongol Empire in while we're at it), two of the most bloodthristy expansionist empire in human history is what we should emulate today for world peace.

[Netto Azure]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

It means if they try to break away illegally, they are not recognized as countries, but as rebels and will be put down as such via military force.

I doubt they want that.

I seriously find it apt, that the movie Lincoln is out in theaters for people to watch with all of this Post-2012 Election secession bruhaha talk.

Maybe people need to brush up on their US Civil War histories?

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by kyp275

I think ogon_bat just want a one world government because... well, I don't know why, since he seems to think the Roman (and why not throw the Mongol Empire in while we're at it), two of the most bloodthristy expansionist empire in human history is what we should emulate today for world peace.

While at the same time suspecting there already is a world government, run from Washington, DC. Because the rest of us are clearly unable to come up with our own laws.

Originally Posted by Netto Azure

I seriously find it apt, that the movie Lincoln is out in theaters for people to watch with all of this Post-2012 Election secession bruhaha talk.

Maybe people need to brush up on their US Civil War histories?

Meh. I already saw the one with the vampires. Close enough.

[Netto Azure]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Meh. I already saw the one with the vampires. Close enough.

I actually found the political horse trading and cajoling for the passage of the 13th Amendment more fun than the Vampire-hunting.

[Anh_Minh]

Why? Did he use an ax?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Netto Azure

I actually found the political horse trading and cajoling for the passage of the 13th Amendment more fun than the Vampire-hunting.

That's only because there were no women in skimpy clothing making silly puns while killing vampires. Instead Lincoln got Gidget...shudder...

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by james0246

That's only because there were no women in skimpy clothing making silly puns while killing vampires. Instead Lincoln got Gidget...shudder...

The surfing Flying Nun ... or ... something ... heh.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Vexx

The surfing Flying Nun ... or ... something ... heh.

sounds like a great idea for a movie.

Nun joins Para-Surfing contested to raise money to bail out convent being foreclose by bank.

[mangamuscle]

I am too tired to remove all the words people place in my mouth, seems to me people are very fond of the status quo.

Going back to the thread origins, I am surprised nobody has posted this: Arizona gun dealer tells Obama voters, 'Turn around and leave!'. At least I am surprised because one thing is to fire your employees, another thing is to tell people "We do not want your money". I thought knee jerk reactions would be limited to selling bad ammunition to Obama supporters. Will the wonders never cease?

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by ogon_bat

I am too tired to remove all the words people place in my mouth, seems to me people are very fond of the status quo.

Going back to the thread origins, I am surprised nobody has posted this: Arizona gun dealer tells Obama voters, 'Turn around and leave!'. At least I am surprised because one thing is to fire your employees, another thing is to tell people "We do not want your money". I thought knee jerk reactions would be limited to selling bad ammunition to Obama supporters. Will the wonders never cease?

What surprise me is than it's in Arizona, the state than have the reputation (probably deserved) to be the easiest place to get a gun

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by ogon_bat

I am too tired to remove all the words people place in my mouth, seems to me people are very fond of the status quo.

Going back to the thread origins, I am surprised nobody has posted this: Arizona gun dealer tells Obama voters, 'Turn around and leave!'. At least I am surprised because one thing is to fire your employees, another thing is to tell people "We do not want your money". I thought knee jerk reactions would be limited to selling bad ammunition to Obama supporters. Will the wonders never cease?

Now see, that's not right.
I would never have done that as an FFL holder, even if I thought they were stupid for voting for Obama.

The 2nd Amendment and the right to own weapons isn't a "right-wing" inalienable right, it's a universal right that all people have simply by being human.
The fact that the US constitution prohibits the government from infringing on that right in no way makes the right a conservative one.
While I understand the dealer's anger over Obama getting elected, I'll be willing to wager he/she voted for Romney.
Since Romney actually has a worse record than Obama for banning guns (though Fast and Furious is pretty damn bad), Romney is at least no different than Obama is/was on the issue.

Bad move on this dealer's part.
He/she should keep in mind that it was Liberals like Thomas Jefferson that pushed for the protection of the right to keep and bear arms and therefore this gun dealer should have known better than to discriminate simply over the poor election choice of these people.

I disapprove of his actions vehemently, and dub him an asshat.

[monir]

Just saw this:

YouTube

https://youtu.be/pBK2rfZt32g

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

He isn't a stone after all!