Morality in Code Geass? Do the ends justify the means?

[HunterRequiem]

Ironically, Suzuku and Euhpie would not have had the chance to do what they did if Lulouch hadn't started a serious rebellion. In a sense, if things aren't destroyed, society starts to bloat, which makes it all the easier to destroy things. It is just like the forest, which needs a fire to burn it from time to time to avoid crowding. Is destruction and pain moral? No, its not. Sadly, its part of the world, though. Destruction can be done in a non-destructive () way, but thats rare. As long as our world works the way it does, we can't really avoid this.

[WhiteWings]

One problem that exists is that though total sweeping of the status quo is necessary it often sweeps away the people and resources needed for the rebuilding. Isn't something like that kinda happening in the series? Euphemia would have been an excellent leader in the process of rebuilding after Lelouch brought everything down (a BIG 'IF').

[Juvyniled]

The problem is, this isn't physical reconstruction/destruction; these are abstract ideals. "Destroying" the empire doesn't actually mean destroying it as in blowing things up. And construction doesn't refer to physically building things. You can replace physical structures or people, but it's not so easy to "replace" a mindset.

....
The difference between society and the forest is that one can be destroyed by natural causes. Society can really only be destroyed by physical actions (sure you can have instances of natural disasters, but people have learned how to construct objects, so anything can be replaced with the exception of people).

Technically, that is true that Lelouch allowed room for Euphemia to make that proposal, but likewise, had Suzaku not killed his father, that wouldn't have set the stage as it is now. So those are really irrelevant; they're just a series of events.
....

Once the bonds of peace are broken, they are difficult to mend. Euphemia would've been an excellent leader of what? If and when Lelouch does suceeed, and supposing Euphemia is still alive, the Japanese people will run themselves (through a political system of course). Euphemia is going to lead what? Like the Britannian people would automatically accept her simply because she holds the title of princess. If the empire is "destroyed", the heirarchy won't have any significance.

[WhiteWings]

One of the contradictions of people is that they want change and everything to remain the same AT THE SAME TIME. People often are forced to face changes under circumstances often beyond their control for the better or worse. But I also know that if people are placed where everything is the same with nothing changing whatsoever then many would opt to kill themselves rather than face a never changing world.

The destruction of the world we know isn't something anyone should take upon themselves to make it happen. This process of destruction and construction often goes in ways beyond anyone's control and expectations.

To leave everything as it is and to change everything from what it is. Both are so volatile and unpredictably harmful in so many ways. Maybe that's why Lelouch is one of the greatest fool in the series.

[HunterRequiem]

Meh, this is getting circular. I'll start posting again if someone brings somthing up that isn't so convoluted and abstract that I start spouting BS. (thats Bad Sardines, if you happen to be 13 years of age or younger).

[WhiteWings]

This topic by itself is circular and convoluted. No way around that.

Anyway, bedtime for me. Good night.

[Juvyniled]

Lelouch is no fool; he is responding to the situation as he feels necessary. He knows there are problems in the system of the empire and they would be more than difficult to change without completely eliminating them.

Likewise, Suzaku is not so much of a fool either. He is promoting peaceful coexistence. But he doesn't know what Lelouch knows and that is why Lelouch's methods are more favorable in the light of doing things.

The problem I have is with people critiquing the whole matter as "only Lelouch is right and Suzaku is wrong". It is in the realm of reasonability and time constraint that Lelouch is right and Suzaku is wrong. People aren't going to live long enough to see the changes, and therefore, it is in their best interest to get what they can, now. But overall, Lelouch and Suzaku are both correct, to an extent.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by HunterRequiem

No. Suzuku ALMOST succeeded. He ALMOST was able to get Britania to give the Japanese people their freedoms back, somewhat. If Lulouch hadn't fouled everything up, Suzuku and Euphie would have been remembered as saints by the Japanese people. After all, the "Japanese" regeon would probably expand over time.

No. Had Lelouch stayed home, Schneizel (if he stuck around) or Cornelia would have waited a bit for the Zone to play its part in destroying the resistance from the ground up, and then, thorugh military or economic means, would have either destroyed it or emptied it of meaning. There is absolutely no reason to believe they'd have let the region expand, against the wishes of the emperor at that.

[Juvyniled]

The region would've collapsed because Euphemia renounced her position (hence, nobody to run it, despite the fact she is a lower ranking authority). Even if Cornelia objected to it, there would be no reason for them to renounce the proposal. Their objective is cease all fighting, and possibly recover the Gawain. What bothers me most is that whole "and I hope Zero will come and support this" catch phrase. I'm not exactly sure if Euphemia proposed it herself or it was something that Schneizel wanted, but that was the key issue. Other than that, it was probably in their best interest to stop all the fighting.

The region wasn't designed to give everything back to the Elevens. It was a small step on Euphemia's part.

[vblaze101]

Hmm.....I've only seen up to episode ten. All I can say is that Code Geass reminds so much of MSG...from the parallel between Clovis's state funeral and Garma's state funeral to how Lelouch's character strikingly reminds me of Char.

But do the ends justify the means. I guess the correct, "logical" thing to say would be no....but then again, if you experienced what Lelouch did at the age of nine, I doubt you'd be dying to serve your enemies milk and cookies, too.

[HunterRequiem]

Euphemia does indeed have a concern for elevens. After all, her dying words were asking Suzuku if they were all right. I don't think we can say that Euphie's actions were just to stop the fighting and remove Zero's support base. When I talk about Suzuku succeeding, I mean that he actually convinced somone to do somthing in favor of the elevens. Also, historically, institutions like this have worked quite well. Take a look at the Romans. They pretty much set their whole empire up like that, allowing each area to retain self rule, and simply imposing small taxes (which were more then paid back in infrastucture improvement) and a millitary tax (you send your millitary far away so you can't revolt). Set ups like that actually make a long-standing empire viable.

[Juvyniled]

The difference between the Romans and the Britannian empire: technology. Given the choices, the Romans would've likely preferred to dominate their opponents and have full control over them, but they don't have the technology or the mobility to do so. The Britannian empire can in fact maintain itself, but their obstacle is a supernatural factor of which they have no understanding of (except maybe the emperor) and Zero.

Institutions like that COULD have worked if there was full-fledged support for it but... the rebels still have the capability to retaliate and Euphemia had little control over the matter and even went as far as renouncing her title which gave her the least bit of authority.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by HunterRequiem

Euphemia does indeed have a concern for elevens. After all, her dying words were asking Suzuku if they were all right. I don't think we can say that Euphie's actions were just to stop the fighting and remove Zero's support base. When I talk about Suzuku succeeding, I mean that he actually convinced somone to do somthing in favor of the elevens. Also, historically, institutions like this have worked quite well. Take a look at the Romans. They pretty much set their whole empire up like that, allowing each area to retain self rule, and simply imposing small taxes (which were more then paid back in infrastucture improvement) and a millitary tax (you send your millitary far away so you can't revolt). Set ups like that actually make a long-standing empire viable.

Viable... if she was the emperor. Which she wasn't. And if the entire empire is set up like that; which it isn't.
The current Britannia isn't like any Empire we know in history. It is on a knife's edge, balancing between organised brutality and absolute chaos. What you propose is not possible; Britannia want absolute control, not just some taxes.

The special area is just a playpen. There is absolutely nothing to gain for Britannia in spreading this method of government to other places, because their policy is there is no such thing as human rights. You take what you want, and if they can't stop you, what you take is yours. This is what the entire Britannian society is built on. You can't change that without fighting a civil war, just as what can happen if Romans suddenly lost their colosseums.

[ZombieSheep]

Originally Posted by HunterRequiem

Euphemia does indeed have a concern for elevens. After all, her dying words were asking Suzuku if they were all right. I don't think we can say that Euphie's actions were just to stop the fighting and remove Zero's support base. When I talk about Suzuku succeeding, I mean that he actually convinced somone to do somthing in favor of the elevens. Also, historically, institutions like this have worked quite well. Take a look at the Romans. They pretty much set their whole empire up like that, allowing each area to retain self rule, and simply imposing small taxes (which were more then paid back in infrastucture improvement) and a millitary tax (you send your millitary far away so you can't revolt). Set ups like that actually make a long-standing empire viable.

convinced? Euphie was like that already before she meet Suzaku, her big motivation (granted that her kindness counts too) behind the whole project was to return back to the days where Lulu, Nanali and her were happy together. Suzaku didn't have anything to do with it, it was Euphie's idea, Euphie's will. It's more like Euphie drag Suzaku along rather than the other way around.

[Witacume]

where to start? Ok I start by saying that thier is no right side. Both sides killed people. Both sides caused massacres. Inadvertly for one.
Do ends justify the means. The brit government is terrible. If you can't agree to that then there is other things we need to talk about then. The choice is then how do we change this terrible government we are in. We can have rebellion(lelouch) or we can change it from the inside Revolution (Suzuku).

To be quite honest Suzuku should have had the easy mode if he were to make his argument. HE has done a terrible job of doing what he represents. First off he killed his father thus commiting a crime he was not punish for. If he were really repentive of what he had done then he would turn himself in and serve time. Obviously this is no the case. Even if were to turn himself in it was brit law so we don't know what would have happen. Nevertheless it seems to me that Suzuku is just trying to self justify himself and just being a mindless robot trying to find a way to releave himself of the guilt he has. Am i suppose to feel pity? I'm not sure. But this is certain he has done a grave injustice and has yet to fess up to the country he has betrayed. Suzuku has to lean on the power of others to do anything. Whether he likes or not he is part of the people who massacre people in the beginning. By staying with that side he is a mindless robot. Now (since ep 23) he is no longer a mindless robot. He is filled with vengence. Go doing a path that destroyed what little virtue he had.

Lelouch well he start off with two objectives Vengence and creating a world that Nunnally can live in. As we see Lelouch is far from a Savior and not only that be he uses immoral means to get what he wants. He killed the people that wanted his help. He uses everything to his advantage. He is a Mindful Human. This now makes things interesting.

Suzuku should have been the winner of this but now that his end is terrible. The question now lies does the means justfy the end? NOT ANYMORE! Suzuku end brings chaos in already chaotic world. "there is no Virtue/Justice in Vengence" If suzuku sticks with the path of vengence he is in the wrong and there is no way around it. Same thing goes Lelouch. But heres the kicker. Lelocuh plan is now a fork in the road. Lelouch end is not closed yet in the sense that he is not just in it for vengence. He is in it for a world that Nunnally can live in. This being a Virtueous "Equal" world. So his question is now Does the end justify the means? the answer is now maybe. This i simply maybe now because the other end is just terrible. This Can change! as of ep 23 I believe this is the state that they are in.

[Juvyniled]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

There is absolutely nothing to gain for Britannia in spreading this method of government to other places, because their policy is there is no such thing as human rights.

Is that so? It doesn't matter what the supremacists want, the Emperor is in charge, and he has quite a bit to gain from ceasing all the fighting. Even if the emperor doesn't bother with "foreign policy" in Japan, Schneizel is there, and he has developed a curiosity of the "ruins". Stop the fighting, and Schneizel gains time to investigate into the mystery, and the Emperor can move on to other territories.

--------
Suzaku has implicitly acknowledged that he is stepping into the world of hatred. But that doesn't mean anything because he was already bound to fall into that path. At this point, he is really only focused on revenge, irrational as it is.

Is "creating" this world "for Nunally" justified? How many more lives must he ruin to achieve it? While it allows room for people to continue living on with their lives without the shackles of oppression, there will be no room for people to coexist; nobody will overlook this event in history and hatred will reign. As we see the plot progress, Lelouch has fallen more and more to his ambitions of revenge than his originally stated goal. For example, he almost went berserk when talking with Euphemia. At this point, it's not the morality of matters or the justified means; it's all about the results and that is what Lelouch will inevitably produce.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Juvyniled

Is that so? It doesn't matter what the supremacists want, the Emperor is in charge, and he has quite a bit to gain from ceasing all the fighting. Even if the emperor doesn't bother with "foreign policy" in Japan, Schneizel is there, and he has developed a curiosity of the "ruins". Stop the fighting, and Schneizel gains time to investigate into the mystery, and the Emperor can move on to other territories.

If that's what they want, they would have already done that years ago instead of waiting for the current situation. Schneitzel has far more political power than Euphie ever had, and perhaps even more than Cornelia. It should have been a breeze for him to force a change in foreign policy, especially if as you suggested, it is to the Emperor's advantage and as such he would greenlight it.

The fact that Britannia as a nation hasn't gone for the more classical Roman or British form of colonial government, but instead aimed for the Darth Sidious style of domination, should give you plenty of hints; they like things the way they are.

And what happens if the next ruin they want is under the Forbidden City? Or Saint Basil's Cathedral?
Exactly how could the Emperor keep the nobles' support in the war effort? By promising lands and titles in the conquered nations. Riches beyond imagining. Not "some taxes."

Oh, did you also realise that giving rights to the Numbers means taking privileges away from the powerful? Since when is that part of Emperor's speech about supporting inequality?
Don't forget, the entire Britannian Knightmare force is composed of Aristocrats.

[Juvyniled]

But the situation has progressed beyond merely dominating the conquered peoples. They no longer have as much control over the situation as they did before. That is recognizeable in Lelouch's successes. There was no reason before for them to act in the manner that Euphemia did. Even beyond the emperor's desire to attain these ruins, what good is it to the nobles if the "lowly scum" is rampaging all over their goods? Even in possessing all those riches, they're not going to have the security they want/need to protect their valuables.

At this point, I'm not going to make an assumption on how the emperor would respond to this matter since he's been passive on matters.

Given how bloodthirsty the sharks at the top of the food pyramid are and how they are oh so trigger happy... who of all people would oppose the king mako shark? (the sharks are royalty and top-tier nobles ).

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Juvyniled

But the situation has progressed beyond merely dominating the conquered peoples. They no longer have as much control over the situation as they did before. That is recognizeable in Lelouch's successes. There was no reason before for them to act in the manner that Euphemia did. Even beyond the emperor's desire to attain these ruins, what good is it to the nobles if the "lowly scum" is rampaging all over their goods? Even in possessing all those riches, they're not going to have the security they want/need to protect their valuables.

At this point, I'm not going to make an assumption on how the emperor would respond to this matter since he's been passive on matters.

Under the current situation, Britannian culture demands only one solution; punish those who oppose them. They will kill as many people as they need to in order to "keep the peace". The riches were obtained by killing innocent people to begin with, there isn't anything different in killing more to keep the wealth they have.

This is how Britannia got to be where they were, as is how they managed to defeat Caesar and created a nation. Brute force is what they use. As long as they have more force than the opposition, they will still win. Only the poor and disadvantaged will suffer out of it all, and it's not like those in power would care.

And as long as Area 11 is made an example of, the other Areas will not rebel. Only full-scale revolt can truly threaten Britannia.

[Juvyniled]

What "Britannia" wants and what the emperor wants are different. Is he going to go out of his way to allocate all the forces required to suppress Area 11? This is no small feat. The rebels have shown promise with the arrival of Zero, and it seems even that the army has trouble dealing with them.

Ah, but now they have incorporated 11s into their empire as economic tools. Oh sure killing a few hundred may not have much of an effect, but it could very well lead to widespread chaos if it is no controlled. It's not beneficial to give reason to the numbers to revolt. Otherwise, they'll lose their standing (financially).

But hey...

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Only full-scale revolt can truly threaten Britannia.

... too late for that one.