GATE - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll

[lubczyk]

My biggest problem with the story so far is that there is no conflict that pushes the characters. The Empire, Rebels, America, China, Russia are cartoon villains that can't challenge the protagonists. Itami and his squad mates are really, really bland. The Elf, Mage, Princess and death goddess come off as schoolgirls form the developing world visiting Japan rather than people separated by centuries in technology, customs and culture. If the most powerful characters from the Other World (ie Rory) join the SDF, and a small patrol can defeat a great dragon and the special forces of the world's 3 most powerful militaries single-handily, what conflict can there possibly arise?

I mean what if Rory was leading a resistance movement against the SDF invaders (Rory slicing a SDF Humvee in half comes to mind) and Leilei using magic to shoot down SDF helos and airplanes with magic would lead to some awesome battle scenes. Instead, we get platitudes of how the leaders of the Other World are all stupid, evil and ineffective.

Look at the peasant population praising the SDF at every turn. Medieval, and even modern, people were very wary of outsiders. The narrative also does not address the fact that in the offenses on Ginza and Arnus Hill, the Other world lost tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of young men. Think about it. A medieval world like the one displayed looks like it has a much smaller population than the modern world. We see small villages, larger trade hub cities and the still larger capitol. With all those losses, nearly every family would have lost at least one if not multiple family, friends and acquaintances. The locals would be showing distrust and outright hatred of the SDF,not embracing them.

This show and franchise comes off as wish-fulfillment patriot fiction.

[Kakurin]

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

This is a bit offtopic, but how saying asians (and by asians i'm referring specifically to people from China, Korea and Japan) possess a characteristic phenotype is making an unsupported correlation? And how is that an insult?

Because it is very often, if not mostly, used to ridicule people of Asian descent. Just because it is not as such an insult doesn't mean that it can't be meant or taken as an insult. It's like a German neo-nazi calling someone "you stupid Jew".

Ok, some soldiers from the Japanese force should have died. That would be expected. But probably GATE story is like Fairy Tail or One Piece where the heroes never die..lol. I'm with you on that. They should have had some casualties!

Sorry, but are you deliberately mocking me or is your comprehension of the English language just that bad? This is not the first time now that you are taking what I'm saying, spinning it ten times until the original meaning is lost and then answering in a mocking tone. Oh right, you admit yourself that you have trouble comprehending your own native language, but then please refrain from answering in provocative tones. Thanks, much appreciated.

To spell it out for you: Nowhere have I stated that the Japanese should have suffered casualties. Nor did I complain that nobody died in Gate. What I ask for is simply that the supposed elite opponents not act like complete retards. It first of all asking for a huge leap in suspension of belief, second of all it makes the "action" look like some form of a bad joke.

[SakurazukaJames]

Originally Posted by lubczyk

My biggest problem with the story so far is that there is no conflict that pushes the characters. The Empire, Rebels, America, China, Russia are cartoon villains that can't challenge the protagonists. Itami and his squad mates are really, really bland. The Elf, Mage, Princess and death goddess come off as schoolgirls form the developing world visiting Japan rather than people separated by centuries in technology, customs and culture. If the most powerful characters from the Other World (ie Rory) join the SDF, and a small patrol can defeat a great dragon and the special forces of the world's 3 most powerful militaries single-handily, what conflict can there possibly arise?

I mean what if Rory was leading a resistance movement against the SDF invaders (Rory slicing a SDF Humvee in half comes to mind) and Leilei using magic to shoot down SDF helos and airplanes with magic would lead to some awesome battle scenes. Instead, we get platitudes of how the leaders of the Other World are all stupid, evil and ineffective.

Look at the peasant population praising the SDF at every turn. Medieval, and even modern, people were very wary of outsiders. The narrative also does not address the fact that in the offenses on Ginza and Arnus Hill, the Other world lost tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of young men. Think about it. A medieval world like the one displayed looks like it has a much smaller population than the modern world. We see small villages, larger trade hub cities and the still larger capitol. With all those losses, nearly every family would have lost at least one if not multiple family, friends and acquaintances. The locals would be showing distrust and outright hatred of the SDF,not embracing them.

This show and franchise comes off as wish-fulfillment patriot fiction.

I can already foresee the replies to this "What did you expect, the JSDF are the heroes in this show, America does things like this all the time, it's just a show, chill.
Not that I don't agree with you but if you've read the earlier pages, then you should already how this is going to play out.

[Sheba]

Why are you even watching the show then? It's clearly a torture for you. This episode was pretty much the nadir of this arc, but I stick around Gate for the "culture shock" aspect of the story. And this is speaking as someone intially skeptical after all the hype. Also speaking as someone sick of french historical dramas that ooze with nostalgia for the olde France portrayed in movies since Amelie Poulain, and who chose to laugh along when Emmerich decided to make French the bad guys in his Godzilla movie.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

"hardly limited" being the key words there. It means it's also a possibility right? I can understand people not liking how things were handled in the anime (everyone has their taste and oppinion) but it does not mean it's an impossible scenario tho. If we want to be super realistic, the most probable scenario is that Japan would definitely shared the GATE with the US to begin with. So, since that did not happened, it sparkled chain events that no longer follows the most logic/realistic situations. Plus, once again, its just a fictional story!

There is a big space between unrealistic and utter stupidity - to be fair the latter is usually what you see in most anime, the difference being that everyone falls into the utter stupidity bracket.

If you locked your keys in your car, there are many ways you can get at it - call for roadside service, get a back up key, call for a locksmith, or if you're in some sort of emergency, break a window.

What you're probably not going to do is get a bag of C4 and blow the car up so you can rummage through the wreckage for your now-useless keys, which is what the show was portraying, even though it's technically a "possibility".

This is a bit offtopic, but how saying asians (and by asians i'm referring specifically to people from China, Korea and Japan) possess a characteristic phenotype is making an unsupported correlation? And how is that an insult? That's how things are. I do not have nothing against people from those coutries as a race. So, how am i being racist? Or using the anime case, how assuming the black man was from the US instead of China or Russia is being racist? It was the most probable assumption. And being a black man from the US is not an insult at all... not for me tho :/
This article should explain it better to you. I have some difficulties with words even when i speak in portuguese, now imagine it in english xD

words have histories, insinuations, and implicit meanings beyond their standard dictionary definition. For example, come to the US, go to a black neighborhood and start calling the people you see "negroes" - you'd technically be correct, but good luck avoiding a beatdown, or worse. The same goes when you start talking about asians with "small eyes", or in reverse Japanese with the word "gaijin" and the Chinese equivalents. All carries the baggage of racial stereotypes, and is no less offensive or racist than if you'd seen a person wearing a turban and decides "that guy must be a muslim/from middle east", except the person can just as easly be a Sikh from India.

You may think this a small matter, but let me assure you people have lost their lives over this.

Originally Posted by aohige

You know what really ticks me off?
People who refuse to read, and carry on with their claims.

And I turn that right back at you. People disagreeing with your interpretation doesn't mean they "refuse to read", I'm fairly certain you're not the author himself, not that it actually matters that much even if you are, as authorial intent is not solely the province of the author.

He was expecting China or Russia, but when he saw the white & black operatives, he realized it was likely America.
That's a completely different implication. The pool of usual suspects were limited from the beginning.
It seems some people really really WANT this to be a racist issue, because they're hungry for any material to slam the title no matter what.

Why? Frankly, if an intel analyst had come up with that assertion and that chain of logic, he'd be fired on the spot. Private contractors comes in all size and shapes, this is especially so once you foray into the world of covert intelligence. Besides, have you heard of a continent called Europe? I assure you, they too have whites and blacks in their military, in fact, I have seen them with my own eyes.

The fact that the story have such a limited pool of suspects to begin with is another mark against it. It really is shoddy story telling compounded with what is probably a flash of the author's xenophobia. Good lord, using covert operative's skin color to determine the origin of their employers is about on par to divining the result of the harvest by the stars.

You haven't read the novel, I have. And it really makes me mad that you didn't bother checking a page back.
Do you want me to translate the part in the novel word by word??

I've seen your arguments, and they sound as nebulous now as they did before. No, I haven't read the novels, though I probably will some day, and I highly doubt my perception of this scene will change at all either barring any substantial differences in the LN, which I understand is not the case.

[Iron Maw]

Risa's anime design marks one of the few ones I like better than any of the other adaptations. Maybe because it's she is the least radical, but I like better than manga's version.

As for the this one of arc I never really liked. No it's not because the of SDF beating the 3 separate Covert forces, but the idea of US participating in this at all. US and Japan are allies, if the former just wants diplomatic access they should be to get it able without all of this nonsense. I mean if the US plans succeeded any not only would not able to understand their abductees, they would have put themselves on extremely bad footing with the Empire. It's heavy handed hairy brained scheme that makes little sense.

Rest of episode was pretty nice that aside, particularity dealing with Itami's past and connections.

[Znail]

Originally Posted by kyp275

Why? Frankly, if an intel analyst had come up with that assertion and that chain of logic, he'd be fired on the spot. Private contractors comes in all size and shapes, this is especially so once you foray into the world of covert intelligence. Besides, have you heard of a continent called Europe? I assure you, they too have whites and blacks in their military, in fact, I have seen them with my own eyes.

The fact that the story have such a limited pool of suspects to begin with is another mark against it. It really is shoddy story telling compounded with what is probably a flash of the author's xenophobia. Good lord, using covert operative's skin color to determine the origin of their employers is about on par to divining the result of the harvest by the stars.

Why would he be fired? Because he hurt the feelings of the dead enemy agents?

This may be shocking but there are plenty of nations where black people (or which label you like) is very rare to the point of being insignificant. Japan is also one of those nations. In fact, odds are pretty high that there are exactly zero black people in or have been in the JSDF. So if you meet a black military veteran, then making the educated guess that he was not part of the JSDF is just pure logic.

Another shocking fact! Which are the 3 strongest nations with any interests in the Japanese area? Russia and China are just across the water and so are USA as well, even if it's more water. I have to wonder which nation you think would be much more likely then any of those 3?

[rladls2121]

Pina and Golden Drill will be overwhelmed again that when they learn about China, Russia, and US wants to kidnap them.
Imagine when they see the real world map and how large those three territories compared to Japan.
Then those two might have some impressions about those three countries that a country with a large territories can be aggressive and greedy.
They just discovered very little piece of information such as "Boys Love" in this real world, but I guess they don't have much time to hang around any longer.

If these three enemy countries combined together cannot defeat the Defense Forces, what makes them think they will actually beat the main heroine trio?
And I forgot why do they want to attack them again.
Well, the Prime Minister said to Defense Minister that "take care of Japan", I wonder if something more horrible things will happen.
The president is acting like a drug dealer who is just picking a person's weak points for easy money.
Look at the president face, look at his smiling face, I wonder if face is like a person who can scam someone to buy their defective products?
But in this case, it reminds me of the news about how NSA spied on Japan.
Whether in fiction or reality, the alliance with sincere trust on both sides is out of the question.

[MonkeyDude]

America has blackmail material that can depose and outright dismantle the seat of power in Japan. What do they do? Let's send an "ELITE" strike force team to forcibly abduct the guests for some talks and a batch of freedom fries.

Can't we just chalk up the good part of this episode to the author's own biases, ignorance, and quite possibly the desire to showcase the awesomesauce of the JSDF special forces? They took down an "ELITE" strike force team with no problems whatsoever! They also have FSN call signs! That's so cool! Oh yeah feel free to ignore how absurd the entire sequence of events played out. Nothing to see here...

[rladls2121]

And look at what Rory was doing to Itami while the President's "best agents" were struggling against the Defense Force.
They sure have that much time to spare in the battlefield going on outside, which was pretty much one-sided.
At the time, was Rory devouring the dead US soldier's souls?
And then Itami trying his best not to let Rory involved in battle by "playing along" Rory's seductive play?

[lubczyk]

Let's not forget the Americans did not account for night vision, UAV's, heat signatures and multiple concealed sniper nests. As if Japan and the next 100 wealthy countries didn't have most if not all of those.

Let's say they actually overcame the defenders and hogtied the delegation. What was their exit strategy? Take the bus to the local American base?

This series needs a credible bad guy and not a bunch of beanie wearing wannabees.

[DemonneoPT]

Originally Posted by MonkeyDude

America has blackmail material that can depose and outright dismantle the seat of power in Japan. What do they do? Let's send an "ELITE" strike force team to forcibly abduct the guests for some talks and a batch of freedom fries.

US tried to get the guests without being noticed and failed. Only then they used the blackmail material as last resort. Arguing they could use the blackmail material first is a legit though (and the most probable to happen), but by doing that, you would'nt have had the actual confrontation between the two elites forces. If you are writing a story, you have to create some tense situations to keep the audience interested. I agree, the combat was not that good, because the japanese forces completely dominated the battlefield making an equal powerfull enemy, not that powerfull. But that's it...

Originally Posted by Kakurin-san

Sorry, but are you deliberately mocking me or is your comprehension of the English language just that bad? This is not the first time now that you are taking what I'm saying, spinning it ten times until the original meaning is lost and then answering in a mocking tone. Oh right, you admit yourself that you have trouble comprehending your own native language, but then please refrain from answering in provocative tones. Thanks, much appreciated.

To spell it out for you: Nowhere have I stated that the Japanese should have suffered casualties. Nor did I complain that nobody died in Gate. What I ask for is simply that the supposed elite opponents not act like complete retards. It first of all asking for a huge leap in suspension of belief, second of all it makes the "action" look like some form of a bad joke.

Provocative tones? The culture clash is real..lol. I assure you i'm not "mocking" you in any way. First of all, if you want the opposite elite to not act as retards, means they would also be capable to put up a decent fight, right? And therefore, they should be able to kill some of the japanese forces making those action scenes less of a joke! I agree, and thats what i was trying to say to you. And i forgot to quote the other guy who actually mentioned the lack of casualties in the japanese side along with your post. My bad. I was replying with to many people at the same time :/
That's why i'm bad with words, specially in a foreign language. Perhaps i used the wrong ones making it somehow provocative to you? When i translate that to portuguese it looks fine tho. Sorry if i offended you in any way!

Originally Posted by Kakurin-san

Because it is very often, if not mostly, used to ridicule people of Asian descent. Just because it is not as such an insult doesn't mean that it can't be meant or taken as an insult. It's like a German neo-nazi calling someone "you stupid Jew".

But that was not what happened in the anime at all. It's just like this guy said:

Originally Posted by Znail

This may be shocking but there are plenty of nations where black people (or which label you like) is very rare to the point of being insignificant. Japan is also one of those nations. In fact, odds are pretty high that there are exactly zero black people in or have been in the JSDF. So if you meet a black military veteran, then making the educated guess that he was not part of the JSDF is just pure logic.

[Tri-ring]

Originally Posted by Magewolf

The thing is all the useful part of those can be done without anybody from the gate. The Japanese claim of owning another planet has no legal backing. They are also carrying out military actions with no oversight and refuse to let UN observers in. Those two things alone are enough to get them put under sanctions that would grind their economy to a halt in a few months.

Present UN Charter doe not have any authority within a nation's sovereign territory. Basically Japan can argue that since it is connected within Japanese territory and no nation had made any prior claim, Japan can claim it is Japan's sovereign territory.
It's one of the loop holes within the charter if you could call it that since they no one would anticipate this kind of incident.
As for JSDF's military action it had also been justified by the televised government debate, in order to override this UN would need to gain witnesses from the special region which they have no access.
UN also does not have authority to sanction against Japan without any evidence either.

[Magewolf]

Originally Posted by Tri-ring

Present UN Charter doe not have any authority within a nation's sovereign territory. Basically Japan can argue that since it is connected within Japanese territory and no nation had made any prior claim, Japan can claim it is Japan's sovereign territory.
It's one of the loop holes within the charter if you could call it that since they no one would anticipate this kind of incident.
As for JSDF's military action it had also been justified by the televised government debate, in order to override this UN would need to gain witnesses from the special region which they have no access.
UN also does not have authority to sanction against Japan without any evidence either.

Sure they do, the UN can put any sanction on anybody for any reason that they can get a vote on. There are lots of rules but they are so vague or so narrowly defined that they are almost useless .

And Japan can argue all it wants but who would vote for them? They have really pissed off China, Russia, and the U.S.A. and it does no other nation in the world any good to let Japan control the gate. The U.N. knows that they moved an army thought the gate and have been using a lot of ammo. So the U.N. says we want to know what you are doing? Japan says no. The U.N. says we do not accept your claim on an entire other planet. Japan says we do not care. The U.N. say we are putting you under sanction to shut down your armed forces until you abide by U.N. requests. Japan says that's not legal. The U.N. says bite me.

[Tri-ring]

Originally Posted by Magewolf

Sure they do, the UN can put any sanction on anybody for any reason that they can get a vote on. There are lots of rules but they are so vague or so narrowly defined that they are almost useless .

And Japan can argue all it wants but who would vote for them? They have really pissed off China, Russia, and the U.S.A. and it does no other nation in the world any good to let Japan control the gate. The U.N. knows that they moved an army thought the gate and have been using a lot of ammo. So the U.N. says we want to know what you are doing? Japan says no. The U.N. says we do not accept your claim on an entire other planet. Japan says we do not care. The U.N. say we are putting you under sanction to shut down your armed forces until you abide by U.N. requests. Japan says that's not legal. The U.N. says bite me.

Placing a sanction would require a vote at the general assembly meaning each nation gains one vote. Japan can easily buy votes to lesser nations that they will grant some controlled access to the special region.
You are completely over estimating that US, Russia and the PRC has complete power over everything. Britain and/or France both having a veto within the Security council and would easily be persuaded even with a junior partnership for access.

[rladls2121]

No this anime is only the beginning.
It will be not complete, but somehow resolute to more friendly relations between countries.
It is not like Japan will prevent foreigners other than maybe politicians that might harm to access to Special Region, like for business purposes.
Not until things has settled down though.
More people in the real world should be more interested in Japan right now because of the GATE appearance itself.
I forgot about the Ginza incident, foreigner might think it might not be safe to go anywhere near.
But still, it is weird that not many foreigner mentioned about taking photos at the door of the GATE.
It is rather strange that only three "so-so" strong countries will get tangled with all these plot, while some grouped of armed organizations like terrorsits, criminal-syndicate, others to combine their forces to raid Itami and the others.

To me, the way I'm talking about this country and that country doing this and that is really sensitive.
Me myself, I don't if im really offending the series or defending the series anymore.
Actually, I'm kind of doing both I guess.
Isn't there anyway to talk things about more freely without being too harmful?
I admit I really did talk harsh things.
And sometimes it is really difficult to talk in a neutral way.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Znail

Why would he be fired? Because he hurt the feelings of the dead enemy agents?

No, fired for being incompetent to the point of stupidity.

This may be shocking but there are plenty of nations where black people (or which label you like) is very rare to the point of being insignificant.

Please do not ever presume to know things about me that you obviously do not know.

Japan is also one of those nations. In fact, odds are pretty high that there are exactly zero black people in or have been in the JSDF. So if you meet a black military veteran, then making the educated guess that he was not part of the JSDF is just pure logic.

Your unsupported assumptions aside, you should also put that goal post back in the ground - the link in question has NEVER been about black people > JSDF, it was black people > US.

Another shocking fact! Which are the 3 strongest nations with any interests in the Japanese area? Russia and China are just across the water and so are USA as well, even if it's more water. I have to wonder which nation you think would be much more likely then any of those 3?

Countries "with any interest in the Japanese area" in this case would be "EVERY SINGLE ONE". Your question is inherently flawed anyway for the following reasons:

1. You make the assumptions that the 3 teams MUST be from the "3 strongest nations", with nothing to back up your assertion, when in fact a great multitude of various powers and interests can field that kind of team, especially considering what a joke they were.

2. Your train of though apparently only reaches this far, without making even the simplest cost/benefit analysis of your list of potential adversaries. But then again, this story didn't either. Seriously, this level of analysis would be embarrassing for basic police work, much less from intelligence agencies.


Frankly, a more interesting angle to explore would be Japan's claim on the SAR to begin with. While they have a much more legitimate claim on the gate itself, the SAR is in fact another planet, of which neither Japan nor any other countries that is a signatories of the Outer Space Treaty can lay legal claims of sovereignty on.

[Brother Coa]

Can't we all just enjoying the show. Yeah some things are illogical and poorly represented but this is fiction after all with some real-life aspects and it;s ok it is like this.
I am personally enjoying the show and I am also personally intrigued with small details they drop in the show here and there.

Originally Posted by rladls2121

It is rather strange that only three "so-so" strong countries will get tangled with all these plot, while some grouped of armed organizations like terrorsits, criminal-syndicate, others to combine their forces to raid Itami and the others.

I am in agreement with your points but did you just called USA, Russia and China "so-so" strong countries? LOL xD

[Hmm....]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Look, let's take the Gate out of the equation for a bit. Imagine that somewhere in a barely explored corner of the Amazon, or maybe an island in the Pacific, there exists a source of enormous wealth. And that a tribe of stone age people is sitting on it.

Now, that would certainly be the jackpot for whichever country claims that bit of land, but even so, those stone age people would still have some protection under international law. And if that country imposes a total information blackout, and refuses to share the wealth, other countries will be a lot more motivated than usual to ensure the stone age guys' human rights aren't being violated.

We have the same thing here. (Except with medieval rather than stone age.) In fact, an argument could easily be made that the Gate is a boundary, and that the land on the other side isn't Japan at all. Since no Japanese citizen set foot there before the Gate appeared, but there was a rather obvious polity already in place.

So if they feel like pushing, and Gate Japan is making them feel like pushing for some reason, the US and company can push.

I completely agree with you example. It's exactly the same thing here. Let's see how motivated we have been so far. As far as I know, China do that all the time, back out any information within its border. So does Burma and any country with many minorities. Actually, majority of African countries has such tribal people within their border. There's even evidence of human right abused there. However, we didn't invade them or put them all into sanctioned. Not so motivated I guess. I'm pretty sure there are more natural resource discovered in those untapped land than what is discovered in special region currently as well.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

If they play ball, sure. But it's not what they're doing, is it? Or the US wouldn't be so desperate.

No, Japan don't. What will US do then ? Put them into sanctioned and let UN involved ? Or try more underhanded politic to eventually persuade them....alone ?

Originally Posted by kyp275

No, fired for being incompetent to the point of stupidity.

I guess if, for example, a Navy SEAL has encountered hostile agents. He found out that they have black-hair, narrow-eyed (or rather looked Asian). He reported that they are likely Chinese. He will be fired as well ?

Originally Posted by kyp275

Please do not ever presume to know things about me that you obviously do not know.

Your unsupported assumptions aside, you should also put that goal post back in the ground - the link in question has NEVER been about black people > JSDF, it was black people > US.

I would love to see your supported argument as well that US military doesn't have significantly more black people AND white people working side by side than the rest of the world. (So no African nation)

[Kakurin]

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

But that was not what happened in the anime at all. It's just like this guy said:

Again, for god's sake, you lose track of what the issue was, that was being talked about. The issue wasn't what was said in the anime, but the "small eyes" thing. Please try to remember what the issue at hand is before answering.

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

Provocative tones? The culture clash is real..lol. I assure you i'm not "mocking" you in any way. First of all, if you want the opposite elite to not act as retards, means they would also be capable to put up a decent fight, right? And therefore, they should be able to kill some of the japanese forces making those action scenes less of a joke!

The problem is not culture related, but rather your tendency to swing out in extremes. No, not being retarded doesn't necessitate killing Japanese, you completely ignore the inherent problems of this so-called "elite operation". That being the cumulation of:

- Unnecessary with the blackmail stuff at hand
- Extremely bad planning, lack of equipment suited for the location, lack of intel, lack of mental preparation
- Bad execution, instead of acting like some experienced personnel they don't guard themselves against danger at all, don't cover themselves, but allow themselves to get shot out of world while standing there admiring how great the Japanese are

Each of these problems by themselves is not that serious, but mixed together it makes the whole sequence look like bad writing.