AnimeSuki Forums

Reckoner · 2010-12-17, 03:13

Lots of recent animes have been bringing up the topic of romance between siblings, whether they are blood related or not, and it is yet uncertain, at least to me, what they are trying to accomplish by doing so.

For example, the currently ongoing Yosuga no Sora (an omnibus style anime) features a sibling romance as its main arc.

So I ask you forum members of Animesuki, what does incest in anime mean to you?

Do you find it an appealing topic to approach in anime? Would you mind if it became a staple of the anime industry?

Is the taboo of such a "forbidden romance" expired? Meaning, are the worries about it grounded on nothing? Should we care if anime leisurely explores this topic?

Lastly, has anime, more often than not, done the topic of sibling romance justice? Has it been portrayed well?

JUST SOME GENERAL RULES

Absolutely, ABSOLUTELY no flaming of any kind.
If you cannot support your posts with logic, please refrain from posting.
Lets try to keep this a civil and academic discussion.
[Mod Added] Please use properly-marked spoiler tags around the entire section when referring to any specific show that others may not have seen.

The mods will remind us that if any such flaming behavior occurs, this thread will be locked immediately. Thank you.

Ushima · 2010-12-17, 03:27

Personally, sibling relationships like that... disgust me D:

(like i said, personally) anyways, I don't have a sister, but if i did (no matter how cute she was) she's blood! I can't do that!

Spoiler for True Tears:

Spoiler for Tsukihime:

idk what anime is trying to throw at us here...maybe people like this kinda thing? Again, me personally, i dont care for it..but hey, if some people like that stuff, that's cool. Im glad they get something they enjoy, i'll just stay away from it.

that's my 2 cents anyways

MeoTwister5 · 2010-12-17, 03:32

It's hard to qualify and quantify the feelings of sibling romance (incest ehem) if you haven't, you know, experienced that sort of feeling, so that's an issue that extends to what I assume is the vast majority of posters on this board.

It's still mostly a medical and moral issue to me more than anything anyway.

***relentlessflame*** · 2010-12-17, 03:40

I would just start off by saying that this topic is interesting for fictional writers because it is taboo/forbidden, and because of that it creates the potential for romantic situations rife with drama and both internal and external conflict right out the gate. Beyond this particular factor (siblings), building romantic stories around "star-crossed lovers" is a staple of the genre that dates back pretty much as far as you can go. It presents the potential for a situation where the audience is cheering for a romance to succeed despite the fact that they may not normally approve of such a thing in real life, and it may cause them to question their personal beliefs in the process. The resulting stories, at least when treated quasi-realistically, tend to be bittersweet and not without some sense of compromise since a romance based on such a premise can't normally be allowed to succeed without some sort of price to be paid (at least that is the general narrative rule you might observe). And besides all that, there's a certain portion of the audience who find the "little sister" concept appealing just on the surface of it, so that alone can be a marketing factor for the show.

So I don't think it's very uncertain to me what they're trying to accomplish here: to create compelling characters and drama that appeal to the audience they're marketing to. More often than not, I would say anime has done the topic justice, with limited examples across the spectrum (both in comedies, serious dramas, and a few "in betweens"). I don't think it will ever become a "staple of the anime industry", and I don't see what there is to be "worried" about... but that's just me I guess. Fiction is fiction.

Edit: I should also say, although the OP chooses to make no distinction regarding blood-relation, I think a fairly big distinction is made within the medium. Stories that try to portray this topic quasi-realistically tend to come up with a reason why the couple didn't bond normally as siblings, whether this reason is illness, or adoption, or divorce, or whatever. This is to again highlight to the viewer/reader that the situation presented is different than any sibling relationship they might have in real life (in other words, most of these romances are either "siblings in name only" or "siblings by blood only" or some other such distinction). This further accentuates the "fiction is fiction" point; anyone who has siblings will know instinctively that this is not a normal sibling relationship, and hence it reduces the risk of being "grossed out".

Dr. Casey · 2010-12-17, 04:04

I don't mind sibling relationships at all in anime, and it honestly confuses me that some people have such strong feelings against that kind of relationship that they're angered or offended by them. Disgust I can understand, but nothing worse than that. I personally could not possibly care less. Of course, my views might be tainted because I've never watched an incestual romance without knowing about it from the start.

With that said, I don't have any particular inclination towards them, either, and I don't relate with those who think it's "wincest" and that brother/sister relationships are awesome by default. I view incestual relationships the same as I view any other kind of pairing: if I think the characters have a nice chemistry together, I'll like it.

I think that sibling relationships have been portrayed well the few times I've seen them, though I definitely don't want them to become a staple of anime. It's a very specific subject, not the kind of thing you insert into every other anime around.

Spoiler for Marmalade Boy:

Archon_Wing · 2010-12-17, 04:04

MM, "not blood siblings" or "siblings in name only" makes me amused the most. I mean especially if they didn't know at first; is it like "Oh we're not really related, let's fuck!"

Does it suddenly become ok?

edit: Will come up with a more serious response in a bit.

0utf0xZer0 · 2010-12-17, 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I would just start off by saying that this topic is interesting for fictional writers because it is taboo/forbidden, and because of that it creates the potential for romantic situations rife with drama and both internal and external conflict right out the gate. Beyond this particular factor (siblings), building romantic stories around "star-crossed lovers" is a staple of the genre that dates back pretty much as far as you can go. It presents the potential for a situation where the audience is cheering for a romance to succeed despite the fact that they may not normally approve of such a thing in real life, and it may cause them to question their personal beliefs in the process. The resulting stories, at least when treated quasi-realistically, tend to be bittersweet and not without some sense of compromise since a romance based on such a premise can't normally be allowed to succeed without some sort of price to be paid (at least that is the general narrative rule you might observe).

Mmm... I think this is especially applicable to Yosuga no Sora, actually. The show struck me as very similar in a lot of ways to shows like EF, Sola, True Tears, and Hanbun no Tsuki, all of which take the bittersweet romance approach.

As for the whole "onii-chan" thing, I have to wonder if it was originally meant mainly for guys who actually just genuinely thought it would be fun to have a cute little sister and aren't much for incest - but which then proceeded to be warped by the anime fandom's sometimes wildly inappropriate sense of humour until it mutated to what we have today. Frankly, it's a gag in and of itself to me... I didn't reverse psychology my girlfirend into calling my onii-chan because of a fetish, I did it for the lulz.

(Actually, anime's capacity for self-flanderizing all of its archetypes is one of my biggest beefs with the industry. And I'll admit I'm not helping things by actually finding it kind of amusing on occassion.)

christinemarie · 2010-12-17, 05:30

Incest is bad, and if ever won't affect their child, their grandchild, great grandchild and so on definitely gets affected drastically as shown in studies over the past decades.

Da Capo 1 (2004), Myself; Yourself (2007), Yosuga no Sora (2010)

Spoiler for Da Capo:

Spoiler for Myself; Yourself:

Spoiler for Yosuga no Sora:

Reckoner · 2010-12-17, 06:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arbitres

I'm stuck on the medical issue, don't mind me.

I'm going to probe a question. What if they vow not to have children?

Triple_R · 2010-12-17, 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

As for the whole "onii-chan" thing, I have to wonder if it was originally meant mainly for guys who actually just genuinely thought it would be fun to have a cute little sister and aren't much for incest - but which then proceeded to be warped by the anime fandom's sometimes wildly inappropriate sense of humour until it mutated to what we have today. Frankly, it's a gag in and of itself to me... I didn't reverse psychology my girlfirend into calling my onii-chan because of a fetish, I did it for the lulz.

(Actually, anime's capacity for self-flanderizing all of its archetypes is one of my biggest beefs with the industry. And I'll admit I'm not helping things by actually finding it kind of amusing on occassion.)

Self-flanderizing an archetype... brilliant way of putting it, 0utf0xZer0, and I have to agree with this as well as it pertains to the "onii-chan" joke. I also agree that the "onii-chan" joke probably had that same original meaning that you're referring too.

As far as actual incest (and not just an "onii-chan" joke) being in a narrative is concerned, I think that RelentlessFlame is right about the potential that such a "taboo love story" can have in the hands of a skilled writer. That's a key factor to me - if the narrative treats the sibling romance with the seriousness that it deserves, and as something that brings a realistic degree of conflict and struggle with it, then it can make for good drama and suspense. If sibling romance is treated too leisurely, though, then that can be something that disappoints me, because it can come across as a big "Yyyeah, I'm not really buying this" moment to me.

I also very much liked how True Tears dealt with incest...

Spoiler for Major and lengthy True Tears spoilers:

You could tell that Jun was very uncomfortable with his romantic feelings for Noe, and hence was desperately trying to set her up with Shinichiro so that would cut himself off from her romantically and basically force himself to suppress his romantic feelings for her.

At the same time, Noe was just an outstanding little sister, and openly adored Jun as her dear brother, and you can kind of see how that might make his heart and mind go places he'd rather they not.

But eventually, he couldn't bring himself to keep hiding his romantic feelings for her, and he revealed them to her in a way that I felt was importantly clear but not particularly disturbing.

Noe was genuinely stunned and taken aback by it, and later on in the series you see her talking to her brother in this very atypical, very low monotone, and you can tell that she's still struggling with the realization of Jun's romantic feelings for her... but at the same time, she still loves him as her dear brother, and doesn't want him to get hurt. It's good that she doesn't just write him off as a pervert, because her doing so would absolutely destroy him emotionally, and he definitely doesn't deserve that. Also, he has been a great brother to her, and their sibling bond is truly worth maintaining, imo.

I felt that this was a splendidly handled execution of one sibling having romantic feelings for another. It is a romantic affection that is borne out of a great deal of platonic sibling affection, with the two being very close to begin with, and being great siblings to one another. Very realistic, and very poignant, and it really brought added emotional involvement from me as it left me feeling quite sorry for both siblings (this wasn't the main reason I felt sorry for Noe, though, as anybody who read my True Tears reviews knows).

Jun probably handled the situation as well as anybody in his situation and with his feelings could, in my opinion. I'm not going to hold a man's heart against him, because it's how he acts upon those feelings that's the key, imo.

Yosuga no Sora's handling of this topic I'm a bit divided on.

Spoiler for Yosuga no Sora spoiler:

Vexx · 2010-12-17, 09:05

I'll bet ... most of the strong responses against incest can't *really* explain why they feel that way. These days most wave their arms about "genetics" (which really doesn't fly well if you know genetics - the percentage difference is barely noise level in problems with offspring - it takes generations of repeated inbreeding before serious problems *might* arise. You're in more trouble if you smoke or drink excessively, iow).
But basically, you've been raised with a "social taboo" that lives under your 'rational self'. The taboo does not arise from genetic worries as much as cultural and religious practice. Cousin-marriage was the norm for humanity for thousands of years and still is in much of the world - because you live in a small tribe or a small village and those are the girls available. All of the Industrial Age taboo against cousin-marriage comes purely from the fear of being labeled "country folk bumpkins" by city dwellers during the Migration to the Cities.

So just realize your reaction has little basis in rationality/science. That said, since incest is a taboo, that drives a lot of the fantasy fiction in romance novels. A lot of people find what other people find exciting "disgusting" (s&m, sexual cosplay, shoe fetishes, doing it any way other than "traditional", doing it at all, etc) - but those are all irrational responses. They lack any gravitas as a law of nature.

A story like Yosuga no Sora or Koi Kaze presents basic real incest in a *relatively* explainable light (different reasons for each). Much of the rest of the series I can think qualify the "incest"... meaning it isn't really incest. I don't care what the legal thoughts are in various jurisdictions - biologically, making it with your step-sister, sister-by-marriage, first cousin, second cousin, or girl-just-raised-with-you-or-next-door isn't really incest even if she calls you 'oni-chan'. Making it with a young aunt is on some murky thick boundary line. Closer than that and you have a match. Personally, if 'incest' is part of the story - I prefer that the author take a lot of care in presenting the motivations and history that lead up to it. But that's true of everything I like in storytelling - work hard on the 'suspension of disbelief'.
With the KissSis series, they do qualify that the boy and the 2 girls are not actually related (Hey, Brady Bunch...) but I have a tough time thinking giving they've spent most of their childhood together that they would be very attracted to each other. You just have to assume this is one of the exceptions, I suppose.

Random note: our DNA research tells us that we're all pretty damn close on the family mark to each other (<10,000 yrs separate everyone on the planet), a blink in the evolutionary scale. But for the record, I couldn't even date girls I grew up with (preschool-elem) on my street. We all tried a date or two but it was a mutually agreed "I feel like I'm on an outing with my sibling, meh". OTOH, cousins I rarely saw but once every few years at reunions were often quite exciting to see as a young teen. So it goes...

Triple_R · 2010-12-17, 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexx

So just realize your reaction has little basis in rationality/science.

I respectfully disagree.

I've heard and read some fairly strong arguments against incest that seem reasonably rational to me. In other words, even if you don't agree with the arguments in question, they are not rooted in emotions but in understandable concerns.

To lightly touch on one argument I read, it's important for people to be able to distinguish between the various types of love, and that if incest was to become commonplace, then people might find it increasingly difficult to differentiate between familial love and romantic love (or romantic love might begin to overly override other types of love in the minds of people, and in society as a whole).

But I don't want to drag this thread off-topic by delving too deeply into that.

Vexx · 2010-12-17, 09:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I respectfully disagree.

I've heard and read some fairly strong arguments against incest that seem reasonably rational to me. In other words, even if you don't agree with the arguments in question, they are not rooted in emotions but in understandable concerns.

To lightly touch on one argument I read, it's important for people to be able to distinguish between the various types of love, and that if incest was to become commonplace, then people might find it increasingly difficult to differentiate between familial love and romantic love (or romantic love might begin to overly override other types of love in the minds of people, and in society as a whole).

But I don't want to drag this thread off-topic by delving too deeply into that.

Ah now that's an entirely different set of discussions on the pros and cons of incest than what we see posted the vast majority of the time (and sounds interesting, PM me some links if you think it'll pull this thread off topic). And to be honest, I was focusing on the *usual* objections which are 1) Idunnoitsbad, 2) religionsaysitsbad and 2) genetics,eh? - and I've not seen anyone objecting here at AS on the grounds you cite as example.

@Arbitres, not quite sure what you are asking for. You're asking for validation of... what?? Some links to statistical comparisons of incest to other risk factors?

Caveat: I like to be able to adequate discuss topics from both sides (something debate teams must be able to do) so I'd love good arguments against the idea. As far as pros and cons of whether entertainment should be able to portray incest in a fictional tale... that may be more on-topic.

Triple_R · 2010-12-17, 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexx

Ah now that's an entirely different set of discussions on the pros and cons of incest than what we see posted the vast majority of the time (and sounds interesting, PM me some links if you think it'll pull this off topic). And to be honest, I was focusing on the *usual* objections which are 1) Idunnoitsbad, 2) religionsaysitsbad and 2) genetics,eh? - and I've not seen anyone objecting here at AS on the grounds you cite as example.

@Arbitres, not quite sure what you are asking for. You're asking for validation of... what?? Some links to statistical comparisons of incest to other risk factors?

No problem. You're right that a lot of the more substantive arguments on this issue tend to not be heard a lot, unfortunately.

Anyway, PM sent.

SgCloud · 2010-12-17, 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ushima

Spoiler for Tsukihime:

Morally, I don't have any real problem with incest other than the potential risk of having a retarted child.
However, even if two siblings would raise a healthy child, I don't think society would ever be so tolerant of it that it could live a life without discrimination.

Since I haven't really watched any anime about incest before, I can't really tell how the aforementioned series really deal with it.

~~Pocari_Sweat~~ · 2010-12-17, 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

As for the whole "onii-chan" thing, I have to wonder if it was originally meant mainly for guys who actually just genuinely thought it would be fun to have a cute little sister and aren't much for incest - but which then proceeded to be warped by the anime fandom's sometimes wildly inappropriate sense of humour until it mutated to what we have today. Frankly, it's a gag in and of itself to me... I didn't reverse psychology my girlfirend into calling my onii-chan because of a fetish, I did it for the lulz.

A bit offtopic, but in Korean culture, when a couple are in a relationship, the female (if younger in age than the male) usually calls their boyfriend "oop-pa", which translates into "older brother" or "onii-chan" for the Japanese equivalent.

The reverse can happen, that is where the female is older than the male, they call their girlfriend "nu-na", which translates into "older sister" or "onee-chan" for the Japanese equivalent. This however is a lot rarer as most relationships have the male as the older person.

SilverSyko · 2010-12-17, 16:46

I see incest as more as very rare form of romantic love between family members. Even if it's looked down upon by society they shouldn't be forced to go against what their feelings desire.

My views depend on the the family members who are in the relationship. If it's siblings then it's a little more easier to accept. They've grown up together for all or most of their lives and know almost everything about one-another.

Parent & child incest is a little bit more drastic, especially if the mother/father is already in married relationship, which could destroy the entire family from the inside. Though you still need to look at the couple's side of things, and the fact they're being honest with themselves is a good quality.

All-in-all, it may be considered a taboo, but it's the same as any other kind of love between two people if you ask me.

christinemarie · 2010-12-17, 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

I see incest as more as very rare form of romantic love between family members. Even if it's looked down upon by society they shouldn't be forced to go against what their feelings desire.

My views depend on the the family members who are in the relationship. If it's siblings then it's a little more easier to accept. They've grown up together for all or most of their lives and know almost everything about one-another.

Parent & children incest is a little bit more drastic, especially if the mother/father is already in married relationship, which could destroy the entire family from the inside. Though you still need to look at the couple's side of things, and the fact they're being honest with themselves is a good quality.

All-in-all, it may be considered a taboo, but it's the same as any other kind of love between two people if you ask me.

Most of the time the child involved in forced incest with parent is adopted. In our country, Incest happens (some are untold cause of fear that the public will be disgusted therefore ruins the child's future. Even the broadcasters censor the victim, some neighbors and other people would find out about it), and those poor young girls gets violated by their own drunkard/drugged/out of his mind/ father. It has something to do with rapid increase of population, people's mind set regarding family planning, as the birth rate is 3 times more faster than other countries. (China "despite the one-child policy" and India leads the way...)

Our government doesn't deal with such matters seriously, as the religious groups and other more opposes laws to prevent such things to ever happen again. Scary thing is the schools are too crowded, house don't have enough rooms to separate boys and girls which gives more risk on incest. There are not enough jobs or most of the people are unqualified or have no experience for the work.

Bottom line, Incest most of the time happens in developing or corrupt countries.

Sex Education is necessary. and how a child should respond in case of sexual abuse, what to call, what to do, how to plan things out should be taught very early as in prep school. Like when a stranger talks to a young girl, that girl should shout for help.

70% 3rd world countries
20% 2nd world
10% 1st world countries like Japan.

MikeyGrey · 2010-12-17, 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reckoner

What if they vow not to have children?

then its all fine. doesnt matter what the relation... so long as they are true to each other and not hurting anyone else, its perfectly ok. society wont accept it? outside views dont matter. bothered by it regardless? move. world is a big place to live.

as for anime? i have maybe seen 2 or 3 that handle this issue so cannot say if the industry in general has done a good job but one thing is for certain: it needs to be shown in an unbiased view across multiple mediums. this is real and its happening. the greater the awareness, the better decisions audience can make for themselves. i dont mean to make it staple though; there are plenty other issues to deal with as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by christinemarie

Like when a stranger talks to a young girl, that girl should shout for help.

maybe listening to the stranger for a bit first wouldnt be such a bad thing. everyone isnt the same. i would much prefer self-defense training; screaming sometimes doesnt help.

Seitsuki · 2010-12-17, 19:08

I think that the problem is anime simplifies the issue too much.

I've recently played two games, Yosuga no Sora and Natsu no Ame (which feature the whole true incest thing not just as a "play a game with sibsex!" card but actually try and explore the issue) and what struck me was how easily the matter was simply shrugged off. Basically there were some token misgivings about "you're siblings" etc but then essentially it came down to well if you really love each other then it's ok. Their friends and community were either supportive, initially resistive but then relenting, or not represented. However there are a myriad of problems which do exist; and not just genetically and socially.

Quote:

then its all fine. doesnt matter what the relation... so long as they are true to each other and not hurting anyone else, its perfectly ok. society wont accept it? outside views dont matter. bothered by it regardless? move. world is a big place to live.

Seems to be the general attitude, both in the medium and among quite a few people here. However that's exactly the problem. You can't cut yourself off from the rest of the world. Even if both of you don't mind, it's not fair to your children. And if you don't have children, the only solution I can see is to either isolate yourself from society, live on regardless of the stigmatisation or do something such as change names- all of which are unfair and unjust but representative of the world we live in and it's views. Even something now widely recognised such as homosexuality still has many detractors and areas where there is outright hostility to it- can you imagine what it would be like in the case of incest? And yet, these problems are dumbed down in favor of a nice simple story with a happy ending. Still, nice. Sora~~ *happy face*

2010-12-17, 03:27	Link #2
Ushima Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The computer :p	Personally, sibling relationships like that... disgust me D: (like i said, personally) anyways, I don't have a sister, but if i did (no matter how cute she was) she's blood! I can't do that! Spoiler for True Tears: .like in the anime True tears, i was like "wah! noooO!!!" Spoiler for Tsukihime: or in tsukihime; There's no way im going to hook up with my sister, maybe one of the maids, and DEFINITELY Arcueid, but NOT my sister.. idk what anime is trying to throw at us here...maybe people like this kinda thing? Again, me personally, i dont care for it..but hey, if some people like that stuff, that's cool. Im glad they get something they enjoy, i'll just stay away from it. that's my 2 cents anyways __________________ Last edited by Ushima; 2010-12-17 at 04:19. Reason: Please use spoiler tags

2010-12-17, 03:32	Link #3
MeoTwister5 Komrades of Kitamura Kou Join Date: Jul 2004 Age: 39	It's hard to qualify and quantify the feelings of sibling romance (incest ehem) if you haven't, you know, experienced that sort of feeling, so that's an issue that extends to what I assume is the vast majority of posters on this board. It's still mostly a medical and moral issue to me more than anything anyway. __________________ Medical Student vs. Anime Last Exile - Fam the Silver Wing -

2010-12-17, 03:40	Link #4
*relentlessflame* 　 Administrator Join Date: Dec 2003 Age: 41	I would just start off by saying that this topic is interesting for fictional writers because it is taboo/forbidden, and because of that it creates the potential for romantic situations rife with drama and both internal and external conflict right out the gate. Beyond this particular factor (siblings), building romantic stories around "star-crossed lovers" is a staple of the genre that dates back pretty much as far as you can go. It presents the potential for a situation where the audience is cheering for a romance to succeed despite the fact that they may not normally approve of such a thing in real life, and it may cause them to question their personal beliefs in the process. The resulting stories, at least when treated quasi-realistically, tend to be bittersweet and not without some sense of compromise since a romance based on such a premise can't normally be allowed to succeed without some sort of price to be paid (at least that is the general narrative rule you might observe). And besides all that, there's a certain portion of the audience who find the "little sister" concept appealing just on the surface of it, so that alone can be a marketing factor for the show. So I don't think it's very uncertain to me what they're trying to accomplish here: to create compelling characters and drama that appeal to the audience they're marketing to. More often than not, I would say anime has done the topic justice, with limited examples across the spectrum (both in comedies, serious dramas, and a few "in betweens"). I don't think it will ever become a "staple of the anime industry", and I don't see what there is to be "worried" about... but that's just me I guess. Fiction is fiction. Edit: I should also say, although the OP chooses to make no distinction regarding blood-relation, I think a fairly big distinction is made within the medium. Stories that try to portray this topic quasi-realistically tend to come up with a reason why the couple didn't bond normally as siblings, whether this reason is illness, or adoption, or divorce, or whatever. This is to again highlight to the viewer/reader that the situation presented is different than any sibling relationship they might have in real life (in other words, most of these romances are either "siblings in name only" or "siblings by blood only" or some other such distinction). This further accentuates the "fiction is fiction" point; anyone who has siblings will know instinctively that this is not a normal sibling relationship, and hence it reduces the risk of being "grossed out". __________________ [...] Last edited by relentlessflame; 2010-12-17 at 03:52.

2010-12-17, 04:04	Link #5
Dr. Casey Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Tennessee Age: 36	I don't mind sibling relationships at all in anime, and it honestly confuses me that some people have such strong feelings against that kind of relationship that they're angered or offended by them. Disgust I can understand, but nothing worse than that. I personally could not possibly care less. Of course, my views might be tainted because I've never watched an incestual romance without knowing about it from the start. With that said, I don't have any particular inclination towards them, either, and I don't relate with those who think it's "wincest" and that brother/sister relationships are awesome by default. I view incestual relationships the same as I view any other kind of pairing: if I think the characters have a nice chemistry together, I'll like it. I think that sibling relationships have been portrayed well the few times I've seen them, though I definitely don't want them to become a staple of anime. It's a very specific subject, not the kind of thing you insert into every other anime around. Spoiler for Marmalade Boy: The oldest anime I can think of that tackles the subject of incest is Marmalade Boy, as an aside, with the scare about Yuu and Miki being siblings towards the very end. This was from around August 1995... can anyone think of any examples older than this? I'm guessing there's plenty. Yeah, it's 3 AM and I took some sleeping medicine so I think that's all I can write now, good night

2010-12-17, 05:30	Link #8
christinemarie Crazy One Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Crimson Demon's Realm Age: 40	Incest is bad, and if ever won't affect their child, their grandchild, great grandchild and so on definitely gets affected drastically as shown in studies over the past decades. Da Capo 1 (2004), Myself; Yourself (2007), Yosuga no Sora (2010) Spoiler for Da Capo: At least in Da Capo 1 (well its okay they are not blood related), there are no ecchi scenes involved when Junichi and Nemu did it. Weird thing is, why Nemu didn't get pregnant (Anime twists logic) between the time of first season and second season before they get married at the end. Spoiler for Myself; Yourself: In Myself; Yourself, it was highly implied that the two goes for the incest route, holding hands, and in the time skip together shown. So its a very fact that siblings without parents or they abandoned their own parents on their own accord draws closer. Spoiler for Yosuga no Sora: Yosuga no Sora goes for the direct approach and no more explanations needed. (Anime twists logic once again, what if his sister gets pregnant? He didn't think about the consequence.) Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2010-12-17 at 13:16. Reason: Remember the spoiler tags!

2010-12-17, 09:05	Link #11
Vexx Obey the Darkly Cute ... Author Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ... Age: 66	I'll bet ... most of the strong responses against incest can't really explain why they feel that way. These days most wave their arms about "genetics" (which really doesn't fly well if you know genetics - the percentage difference is barely noise level in problems with offspring - it takes generations of repeated inbreeding before serious problems might arise. You're in more trouble if you smoke or drink excessively, iow). But basically, you've been raised with a "social taboo" that lives under your 'rational self'. The taboo does not arise from genetic worries as much as cultural and religious practice. Cousin-marriage was the norm for humanity for thousands of years and still is in much of the world - because you live in a small tribe or a small village and those are the girls available. All of the Industrial Age taboo against cousin-marriage comes purely from the fear of being labeled "country folk bumpkins" by city dwellers during the Migration to the Cities. So just realize your reaction has little basis in rationality/science. That said, since incest is a taboo, that drives a lot of the fantasy fiction in romance novels. A lot of people find what other people find exciting "disgusting" (s&m, sexual cosplay, shoe fetishes, doing it any way other than "traditional", doing it at all, etc) - but those are all irrational responses. They lack any gravitas as a law of nature. A story like Yosuga no Sora or Koi Kaze presents basic real incest in a relatively explainable light (different reasons for each). Much of the rest of the series I can think qualify the "incest"... meaning it isn't really incest. I don't care what the legal thoughts are in various jurisdictions - biologically, making it with your step-sister, sister-by-marriage, first cousin, second cousin, or girl-just-raised-with-you-or-next-door isn't really incest even if she calls you 'oni-chan'. Making it with a young aunt is on some murky thick boundary line. Closer than that and you have a match. Personally, if 'incest' is part of the story - I prefer that the author take a lot of care in presenting the motivations and history that lead up to it. But that's true of everything I like in storytelling - work hard on the 'suspension of disbelief'. With the KissSis series, they do qualify that the boy and the 2 girls are not actually related (Hey, Brady Bunch...) but I have a tough time thinking giving they've spent most of their childhood together that they would be very attracted to each other. You just have to assume this is one of the exceptions, I suppose. Random note: our DNA research tells us that we're all pretty damn close on the family mark to each other (<10,000 yrs separate everyone on the planet), a blink in the evolutionary scale. But for the record, I couldn't even date girls I grew up with (preschool-elem) on my street. We all tried a date or two but it was a mutually agreed "I feel like I'm on an outing with my sibling, meh". OTOH, cousins I rarely saw but once every few years at reunions were often quite exciting to see as a young teen. So it goes... __________________ "It Really IS Rocket Science", Novel series rough drafts; vol. 1 thru vol. 3 complete Volume 4 in work, Visit the thread for short stories! Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2010-12-17 at 13:18.

2010-12-17, 16:46	Link #17
SilverSyko Okuyasu the Bird Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Alberta, Canada Age: 32	I see incest as more as very rare form of romantic love between family members. Even if it's looked down upon by society they shouldn't be forced to go against what their feelings desire. My views depend on the the family members who are in the relationship. If it's siblings then it's a little more easier to accept. They've grown up together for all or most of their lives and know almost everything about one-another. Parent & child incest is a little bit more drastic, especially if the mother/father is already in married relationship, which could destroy the entire family from the inside. Though you still need to look at the couple's side of things, and the fact they're being honest with themselves is a good quality. All-in-all, it may be considered a taboo, but it's the same as any other kind of love between two people if you ask me. __________________