Hyouka - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll

[Gohan78]

Tomoe is the Mycroft to Houtaro's Sherlock. She probably bought "A corpse by evening" at last year's Kanya Festival (she is an alumni of that school after all). However it was a bit too convenient that she had the doujinshi with her.

As for Mayaka's situation, I think the bullying will stop. The Vocaloid cosplayers are just Kouchi's cronies. If sempai tells them that she made peace with Mayaka, they won't bully her anymore. I'd love to see the manga club again in a future episode.

I also like to believe that Kugayama got the message from Tanabe. The president said "Good job" specifically to Tanabe after mentioning the Juumoji incident to the crowd. At the very least he guessed the "culprit".

Anyway, a really fantastic conclusion to the best arc in Hyouka. I loved how all the various subplots came together under the common theme of "expectations". Not a single scene in this arc was wasted. Bravo KyoAni!

[MUAHAHAHAHAHA]

A very satisfying conclusion to this arc. I almost cried at Mayaka's scene. I didn't expect that.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Qilin

Actually, I meant exactly what I said.

I never wrote, or implied, that you didn't.

I wrote that I think that you might be putting it too strongly. In other words, I don't think that I fully agree with you.

Wherever people gather together, a pressure to conform will naturally arise. As the gathering steadily becomes larger, the need for conformity grows stronger along with it.

I would put it differently. Whenever people gather together in sufficiently large numbers a desire (if not need) for there to be a leader of the group manifests itself. In having such a leader, inequality is not merely tolerated, but downright codified.

These leaders are entrusted with powers and responsibilities that the average person doesn't have. Hierarchies (which have inherent inequality) often, if not typically, also come into play. The leader is expected to generally reflect the norms and traditions of the society that s/he arises within, but s/he's also entrusted in shaping/evolving those norms and traditions to at least some degree. Leaders are somewhat limited by cultural norms, traditions, and laws, but not entirely so.

Such is what I believe to be the birth of society as we know it, so I don't think it's too much to say that society is founded on principles of egalitarianism, but I digress.

Well, then I disagree with you. Society is founded on the principle of entrusting leaders to help guide society and represent its collective will, be those leaders Kings, Queens, Presidents, Prime Ministers, Premiers, Governors, Mayors, Priests, Police Chiefs, CEOs, Managers, etc..

Society is not founded on egalitarianism, imo. It respects egalitarianism to a degree, just like it respects individualism to a degree, but that is all.

I didn't mean to undermine the idea of individualism, but I honestly interpreted the show's take on the whole talent inequality thing as predominantly pessimistic, which was probably enhanced the melancholic feel of the entire episode.

While I respect that interpretation, my own is different. I think this episode is bittersweet, in the way that I already described in a previous post.

Did Mayaka and Satoshi seem all that unhappy in the final scene of this episode? Sure, there's some sadness there, but I don't think I'd call it melancholic.

[~Yami~]

so..... this 'expectation arc' finally get its conclusion....

this inferiority's feeling between the players are very huge....
Chitanda - Iris
Fukube - Houtarou
Ibara's senpai - Anjou Haruna
Vice president Tanabe - President Kugayama

Mayaka and Satoshi also have some development in their relationship.... I think I can imagine some scene after Mayaka try to comfort Fukube.. xD

and Houtarou... you're awesome... xD
I just can't believe all of this stuffs are started because they want to sell overprinted anthologies
neatly done!

[GalacticPulsar]

Actually looking back at the previous episodes, this was not the first time Oreki manipulated someone. In ep 3,he manipulated Tōgaito(the guy who was smoking in the classroom) into returning the anthologies to the Classics Club .

[Reckoner]

This was a very disappointing conclusion to the arc.

They really wanted to push out this idea about the genius who us common people always have to look up to and feel inadequate to in comparison, and that sometimes this genius may not even like using their talents that much for a specific task.

The arc came down to this same realization on three different fronts: Oreki with the student council President who wanted his friend to keep working on the manga, Mayaka's senpai who could never make as good as manga as her friend, and of course Satoshi with the fact that he feels he could never match Oreki.

Sorry but really? We waited all these episodes for this? On a narrative level I just find this a tad underwhelming.

I appreciated the development of Satoshi in this arc very much, it was lovely seeing his outer exterior crack a little bit in the face of his jealousy. However, having the entire arc be about the same thing to me was just a bit too redundant for my own liking.

I also have a sense of being led around by the nose by Mayaka's character arc. She gets treated like crap, and then it ends like that? I don't really see any meaningful growth on her front when initially I thought it might be going somewhere more interesting. Just not a terribly interesting turn of events.

Not going to even get started on how stupid the conclusion to Chitanda's little character arc was either.

Yeah mark Kanya festival as the second worst arc after EBA.

[Snuffle]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I also have a sense of being led around by the nose by Mayaka's character arc. She gets treated like crap, and then it ends like that? I don't really see any meaningful growth on her front when initially I thought it might be going somewhere more interesting. Just not a terribly interesting turn of events.

Not going to even get started on how stupid the conclusion to Chitanda's little character arc was either.

Yeah mark Kanya festival as the second worst arc after EBA.

I would question whether this was the worst arc in the series considering there aren't many happy and fun events like the cooking contest or the quiz show (aside from the hot springs). However, I would have to concur with pretty much everything else you've said.

Mayaka's arc had some interesting happenings but felt cut short. I'm hoping there would be some sort of continuation to conclude her character development (even if it's only her by herself thinking), otherwise, it would just look like some sort of filler.

But um ya... Chitanda... What was the point in all that? It probably could've had some meaning, but maybe it was just executed poorly? She doesn't need to know how to persuade people like Irisu... She already has her own effective way of doing that _without_ making the other party feel like shit.

[Julio C]

Can somebody explain Mayaka's situation and why she cried at the end? I was left confused. Was the girl she was talking to, the one who did the manga? I just go the impression that it was that, but I am unsure. Still pretty emotional.

[vansonbee]

Originally Posted by Julio C

Can somebody explain Mayaka's situation and why she cried at the end? I was left confused. Was the girl she was talking to, the one who did the manga? I just go the impression that it was that, but I am unsure. Still pretty emotional.

That short hair girl was Mayaka senpai, the one being a huge bitch throughout this arc. Do you recall Mayaka looking for "A corpse by evening", to bring to her senpai? Well instead of that manga, she found another "Body Talks", but that manga was not on the same level as "A corpse by evening" (but it was still good). Well the irony was, that manga belong to this senpai, that Mayaka is feuding with. She only figure it out, thanks to the cat drawing, because it was the icon of that manga as well (back of book). My memory bit fuzzy, but I recall it thanks to the flashback.

Mayaka x Fuka-chan!

[GMT]

Originally Posted by Julio C

Can somebody explain Mayaka's situation and why she cried at the end? I was left confused. Was the girl she was talking to, the one who did the manga? I just go the impression that it was that, but I am unsure. Still pretty emotional.

The girl she was talking to was one of the cosplayers (and one of her seniors) at the start of the arc, Ayako Kouchi. The one with the Vocaloid cosplayer hangers-on. Mayaka gets into a debate with Kouchi about whether or not "masterpieces" exist, and if it's possible for a work to be born a "masterpiece." She mentions a one-off work called A Corpse By Evening and says she'll bring it the next day, so that the other girl can see what she's talking about.

As it turns out, Mayaka can't find A Corpse By Evening, but does find another one called Body Talk, which she thinks is good as well, and still many levels above hers.

When she tells Kouchi that she couldn't find A Corpse By Evening, Kouchi's friends suggest that Mayaka was just doing an ass-pull to get them off her back. Kouchi tells her friends that if they hadn't heard of the work, then they should kindly STFU.

At the end of the arc, Mayaka ends up borrowing Oreki's copy of A Corpse By Evening, and she brings it to Kouchi. As it turns out, she already had a copy of the work, and she kindof agrees with Mayaka about the nature of masterpieces . . . so much so that she stopped reading A Corpse By Evening halfway through and buried it at the back of her closet so she'd never have to see it again, and so she could be in denial about the nature of masterpieces.

Kouchi reveals that she knew the writer of A Corpse By Evening, and felt a substantial inferiority complex toward the writer . . . since the writer was not a big fan of manga . . . and yet, the writer came up with a masterpiece manga as her very first (and as far as she knew only) entry in the field. While doing this, she sketches some graffiti on the rail.

Kouchi, obviously distraught, tells Mayaka that she refuses to read A Corpse By Evening, because then she'd be overwhelmed by how OMG AWESOME it is, and she'd be eagerly awaiting more work from the writer . . . which isn't going to ever happen.

After Kouchi leaves, Mayaka looks at the doodle on the rail, and realizes that it's the logo from the back of Body Talk. The same manga that she'd previously asserted that, while not the masterpiece that A Corpse By Evening was, it was still "a hundred levels" above her work.

It then hits her that she'd been debating about masterpieces with a girl whose own work was significantly better than her's . . . a girl so crushed by a non-fan manga genius that she's retreated to the safety of denial. In other words, she'd fought with a girl who'd already fought the same battle over masterpieces, talents, innate talents, and expectations that those of lesser talent hold of those of greater talent, lost miserably, and was still light-years ahead of where Mayaka was. It's a realization that does bad things to her feelings of self-worth.

[Hyper]

Originally Posted by Craxuan

And about the whole 'difference in talent' thing, I really never bothered about it quite much. It wasn't really something one should mull over too deeply. I'm good at writing, he's good at doing maths, she can draw, he can drive, she's good at fighting - once you really think about it, what is the point comparing your weakness against the another person's strength? Perhaps it's because the characters portrayed are very young, but it may have been slightly exaggerated in my opinion. We are unique the way we are. Even if I'm supposedly 'talentless' compared to him in let's say, deduction, there WILL be something along the same path that I can do better than the genius.

I like this one by Einstein:

Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.

Of course, he is a genius. So he get to say that.

That's a large part of why I took one point off from this episode actually. I think the talent theme was not really wrapped up. The show presented the issue but didn't present a solution. OK, life is unfair, but now how are they going to live with it?

It is likely that it was intentional though. From this arc which is from Satoshi's point of view, Houtarou looks like he is at the top of the food chain. However, Houtarou has seen the higher sky himself in the form of his sister. We only have a couple episodes left so I don't have much hope, but I do want to see this get explore more.

The way I see this issue in real life is that people are different. While there are exceptions, they are not superior or inferior to one another, just different. What we (and the education system) should try is to find the thing that the individual is good at and develop it.

[MartianMage]

@Reckoner

While I would agree with you that the ending was actually pretty meh(you have to admit the whole Juumonji thing was silly and it's no wonder it failed making the entire thing pointless) I won't say that this arc was outright bad. The middle parts were fun to watch IMO but yeah the end wasn't that good.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Snuffle

I would question whether this was the worst arc in the series considering there aren't many happy and fun events like the cooking contest or the quiz show (aside from the hot springs). However, I would have to concur with pretty much everything else you've said.

Mayaka's arc had some interesting happenings but felt cut short. I'm hoping there would be some sort of continuation to conclude her character development (even if it's only her by herself thinking), otherwise, it would just look like some sort of filler.

But um ya... Chitanda... What was the point in all that? It probably could've had some meaning, but maybe it was just executed poorly? She doesn't need to know how to persuade people like Irisu... She already has her own effective way of doing that _without_ making the other party feel like shit.

I really don't get where you people get the idea that Chitanda's good at persuasion. She nags. It works when the other party has too much goodwill for her not to oppose a firm refusal and run away from her. It didn't work against the newspaper guy, or Tanabe.

And while Irisu's method made Houtarou feel like shit, it was mostly due to circumstances and Houtarou being a freak. In most cases, a girl having "expectations" of a guy will make him feel good, whether she overstates or understates some things or not.

[ellessarr]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I really don't get where you people get the idea that Chitanda's good at persuasion. She nags. It works when the other party has too much goodwill for her not to oppose a firm refusal and run away from her. It didn't work against the newspaper guy, or Tanabe.

And while Irisu's method made Houtarou feel like shit, it was mostly due to circumstances and Houtarou being a freak. In most cases, a girl having "expectations" of a guy will make him feel good, whether she overstates or understates some things or not.

if u look right on scene u gona see her eyes no bright when she talks this means she dont used the hypnos bright eyes, she just tried irisu's metod but failed miserable

i give 9/10 on this for the same reason of some guys(the unsolved bulling problem), and for the "houtaro hates" i think us are not looking to him on all directions, houtaro personality is a basico MC shell personalite(a variety of tsundere), he have obvious inferiority complex problems toward him big sister, this make him believe he's a "normal gray person who have almost no special life", this make him on this way toward othes person and for this come chitanda the person who he falls in love but is unable to accept this because accept her love gona make him totally break the "shell" who is the think he dont want for now, and for the ppls who claims "he only sexual interest on her" this not totally true infact he loves her the hints already showed:

ep 1 when he first get caught by her hypnos eyes the scene showing the flowers and her hair growing, and first time he was not able to deny a request to someone

ep2 again he was unable to say no to her and get grabed to all places by her easy

ep 6 when chitanda play about saying "want to save energy" he see her like finaly find her angel/soulmate(just to be crushed when she says "was just kidding")

ep7 is really more about "sexual interest"

ep 11.5 was the most big hint of him love: when they get alone on the lunch time after satoshi and mayaka leaves, when him and chitanda start to talk and him talk about being important(because houtaro is the type of person who demands attention because he sister problem overshadowing him) and when she replay "who him need be important only to her(only she, the person that matters) he started to make a really good expression before she completed the sentence saying that others are also important after this his expression goes to normal, but she again say he is important to her, and after they ears the crying baby He speaks softly this can be really important for him(her happy).

ep 15 when he get alone with mayaka and he confess who he can't say no to chitanda and mayaka notices houtaro feellings for chitanda

the problem with houtaro is he is the type of person who need the others "to force him to goes out the shell", and about confession for now looks likes he "wants her does the first confession rater than him" because like the shell characters he's afraid of confesse to her and get broken or think he under her level's of expectation(and get rejected by the love person is even worse than be used) some of the times i pointed was clearly shown who whe wanted her really saying "i love you", this dont means who in the end he gona get the courage to confess first but for now he just trying to shine to the person whos care to trying to make her confess first.

that is mine point

ps srry for some bad english errors( at last not mine native language)

[joeboygo]

Just to be clear, are there people here that think Chitanda's googly eye effect was meant to literally depict some sort of supernatural power? I was under the impression that it was just a visual gag to make patent her earnestness and sincerity. All this time I thought people were kidding around with the hypno-toad references, but I'm not so sure anymore.

[ellessarr]

Originally Posted by joeboygo

Just to be clear, are there people here that think Chitanda's googly eye effect was meant to literally depict some sort of supernatural power? I was under the impression that it was just a visual gag to make patent her earnestness and sincerity. All this time I thought people were kidding around with the hypno-toad references, but I'm not so sure anymore.

well at last everyone who trully crossed with her eyes was unable to say "no" to her(houtaru The most on they are "SUPER EFFECTIVE", irisu and mayaka).

edit: and on the first ep when houtaro made a "case" about the spider club just to check how her "eyes powers works", was agood hint and she alse have almost superhuman(almost dogs levels) senses(ear the man working o the floor above then, smell the ink in the book and too afar from the painting club

[alarmadadna hadi]

That's a large part of why I took one point off from this episode actually. I think the talent theme was not really wrapped up. The show presented the issue but didn't present a solution. OK, life is unfair, but now how are they going to live with it?

It is likely that it was intentional though. From this arc which is from Satoshi's point of view, Houtarou looks like he is at the top of the food chain. However, Houtarou has seen the higher sky himself in the form of his sister. We only have a couple episodes left so I don't have much hope, but I do want to see this get explore more.

The way I see this issue in real life is that people are different. While there are exceptions, they are not superior or inferior to one another, just different. What we (and the education system) should try is to find the thing that the individual is good at and develop it.

Spoiler for For The sake of dear dear space:

I prefer the approach they've been using so far, adding petty post hoc rationalizations and "You may fail at x...BUT [insert moralism]", "it's okay", "love yourself" crap would take away the whole meaning. I understand that hollywood feel good approach demands all stories end with such cute winks, but this matter of the fact take on it feels appropriate for hyouka.

Spoiler for pool episode:

I didn't see the pool episode, but from what I read about it, it attempts at such a "closure" for the eba arc, which is why I suspect it might be filler (or canon, etc).

I remember when I was in high school, if I met someone like satoshi I'd be envious of his high social intelligence and insight, but none of that matters, if he wants to be able to do what houtaro does (Which is not even something educational systems put so much focus on as memorizing) and doesn't want to settle for what he has, then that's that.

I think, rather than a direct solution, we will get a more indirect one, such as the talented (ie: houtaro) stop taking their powers for granted.

If you think about it, the only one to get over this "expectations" thingy stronger was probably chitanda, "stay true to yourself" is all it comes down to...But we cannot say that makes chitanda a more mature person than satoshi, or etc just like how a person who doesn't care about you is, morally, no better or worse than someone who hates or loves you.
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My respect for oreki's intelligence also increased a lot, the way he turned the situation around in an obvious win-win situaton was downright brilliant. I also defend his morality from claims decrying his "black mail", as the deal benefited both parties I see it as a grey solution that is better than its black/white alternative, I doubt Chitanda's earnestness would do much for Juumonji.

Although I would have preferred juumonji case to have a less "deliberate" cause than a single mastermind, it was explained very solidly mystery wise. From the beggining, Tanabe gave me the impression of someone who redirects his frustrations from direct expressions to indirect ones, his "crime" was not practical at all (which surprised me given hyouka's "mundane" history), but that's what you'd expect from a poetic expression. (It seems, judging by how his conversation started with houtaro, that he rationalized it to himself as a fun contribution to the festival)

Another thing I was hoping for was a change in the four friends status quo, I thought the intense and great build-up was a perfect chance and timing for it, although it might be either too early for the story, or too much to expect from this type of story.

The arc came down to this same realization on three different fronts: Oreki with the student council President who wanted his friend to keep working on the manga, Mayaka's senpai who could never make as good as manga as her friend, and of course Satoshi with the fact that he feels he could never match Oreki.

Sorry but really? We waited all these episodes for this? On a narrative level I just find this a tad underwhelming.

It wasn't just a narrative and thematic thing, but a part of the mystery, it functioned as a hint as some of us guessed the motive of juumonji through reading between the lines of the different characters conflicts.

And, is it just me, or did houtaro show us his very first "real" smile?

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Hyper

IThat's a large part of why I took one point off from this episode actually. I think the talent theme was not really wrapped up. The show presented the issue but didn't present a solution. OK, life is unfair, but now how are they going to live with it?

That was exactly the point of the episode for me actually.

The solution here is that there is no solution. The only thing they can possibly do is to just suck it up and accept the reality. I could even view it as a sort of "rite of passage" that most aspiring youths undergo as they slowly become integrated into the clockwork of society. Life simply goes on from there, as each individual remains powerless against nature's fickle roulette wheel.

That is the single realization I found in the episode that struck me as melancholic and somewhat bittersweet.

[winhlp32]

This isn't the first arc they've dealt with the whole talent/expectations stuff, and there are still four more episodes left. The series may have more to say on the matter yet, so I think it's a bit early to jump to conclusions with what Hyouka is trying to convey on this subject.

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by winhlp32

This isn't the first arc they've dealt with the whole talent/expectations stuff, and there are still four more episodes left. The series may have more to say on the matter yet, so I think it's a bit early to jump to conclusions with what Hyouka is trying to convey.

I'd argue that this arc is the first one to address the issue of talent from the perspective of the common man. The earlier arcs were much too focused on Houtarou's internal struggle to accept himself to give much attention to the perspective of everyone else.

The fact remains that this episode marks the end of a major arc and the final image it conveys goes a long way towards its interpretation as an arc. I'm not "jumping to conclusions" here. I'm looking at the entire arc as a whole and what it might have meant.