[Manga] Chapter 344 Discussion

[gibits]

Originally Posted by Mists

I am truly disappointed in Kishi's story telling as of late. Last chapter there was some redemption...But come on!

First:

Why did Oro teach Sasuke enough be such a difficult threat (don't give me Oro is injured BS, he should've realized the sickness way before!)

For all I know, Oro could've easily bounded up Sasuke for 3 years.

And wtf, Sasuke uses the curse seal against Oro? Wasn't the curse seal used to control people? We probably will find out next chapter, but maybe Sasuke figured out the curse seal was tied to whichever body Oro created it with? Perhaps, because he did have to bite the person to create it....

I'm surprised he never considered kidnapping Tsunade to figure out medical jutsus for immortality.....especially when she has a similar special power as well.

I agree, Kishi's storytelling has been ass as of late. Well I should say for a while now if it takes how this long to work around the huge plot hole of "why even train Sasuke at all?". I'm hoping Kishi will surprise us and stop changing things around to cater to fans.

Last I checked Anko's cursed seal completely paralyzed her on Oro's command, why is it not doing that now?

Oro convienently loses his instant regeneration against Sasuke?


Oro did try to kidnap Tsunade but she ended up kicking his ass. Now that i think about it Oro has lost every fight since the 3rd. Tsunade one hit KO'd him. Naruto
was tearing him up and would've won if Sakura didn't get in the way. Now Sasuke, the runt that he trained, is going to beat him yet again..... Oro really is kind of a joke now that I think about.

Bad storytelling aside I'm glad Oro is going to get his ass kicked (prolly kicked) his character is just way too one demensional for my taste. Sasori and Diedria are villians I can appreciate, but Oro is so meh. Besides I like the idea that Sasuke is getting revenge for the 3rd. Wish it was done better though....

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Hunter

So? Manda doesn't have hands contrary to Gamabunta but that didn't seem to be a problem for him. "Taijutsu" skills in the other hand seems rather highly unlimited since his entire body is a weapon. Countless weapons actually.
When you take a look at Oro vs. Kyubi Naruto you can see Oro vomiting snakes, himself back, regenerating, using his Kusanagi and summoning big gates.

Using snakes as part of a long list of techniques is different than relying only on snakes. It is like,a ninjutsu using version of Lee fighting using only taijutsu skills. At the moment, he feels a big threat, he has the choice of changing methods, whereas Oro has to rely on what he has (more like Lee against Gaara).

I have also considered mentioning Manda's name previously, but I really don't think they are at comparable levels (even at the miniaturized level). Also, you are saying unlimited taijutsu skills, but, if I have to compare Oro to a taijutsu specialist, I wouldn't normally put Oro in that state as the stronger. Cause someone who has good taijutsu skills and who is able to combine them with ninjutsu skills will be able to overpower a mere taijutsu specialist, if Oro will be considered that way.

It's like saying that Yamato (and Konoha behind him) are similar to Orochimaru because they use abilities obtained thanks to Orochimaru's experiments.
Orochimaru killed at least 59 children to obtain Yamato, do you think he shouldn't use Mokuton because of that? Of course not, it's stupid.

Sasuke had the choice of not upgrading to cursed seal level 2, when he chose that. He, willingfully, accepted that upgrade, as a present, without paying a single concern to how it might have been established the first time.

Yamato wasn't given that choice. He was born with that.

Maybe, a good question to separate both cases would be, if Sasuke would be given that choice right now, after reaching the max level with his own abilities, and couldn't see a way to go beyond that, and still feel considerably weaker compared to Itachi, what do you think he would choose after giving that speech? In my opinion, he would say, "go ahead and make me stronger".

Sasuke despises Itachi and Oro because they play with people's lives for ridiculous reasons (namely measuring his ability and knowing the truth blahblah). Well he's right about what they does and as of now he has never done that.
This has nothing to do with using the CS.

To me it has something to do with it. It is like earning drug money to buy/improve weapons and spending drug money to buy/improve weapons or using those weapons bought with drug money. If I am not mistaken, you do not consider the indirect way as something to oppose Sasuke's ideals, but, I just cannot ignore that.

I'm not saying he's particulary concerned with others, Sasuke seems a little too self centered on his own rage for that. I'm saying he hates people like Itachi and Oro which explains what he's saying now and why he's trying to take Oro down. Being disgusted by the culprits isn't the same as being concerned by the victims you know, it's not like Sasuke ever tried to pass as a saint either. He's just no Itachi, Orochimaru and the like.

Sasuke gave the (false) impression of not having the desire to waste other people's lives to become stronger - this is something Oro and Itachi does. But, he doesn't seem to mind walking along the path opened by those methods. Both cases are both different and similar, and Sasuke seems to see only the different point of view and ignore the similar part.

And this is Oro we're talking about : threatening to leave wouldn't have made Orochimaru stopping being who he is, that would have made him being who he is with Sasuke.

If Sasuke had thought about trying to get rid of Oro the moment he joined him, it might have prevented what Sasuke criticized according to him. Even, if it wouldn't have prevented what Oro likes to do permanently, Sasuke could at least not have felt the guilt of being trained by someone who does what he hates the most when also with him. Still, not good, but, better than not doing anything.

Since my mind currently has a strong tendency to criticize Sasuke, here, another possible twisted logic in Sasuke came to my mind to prevent the above from happening, such as, "it seems to be a win-or-loss situation, changing the way Oro operated might affect my training negatively, so either I should avoid that hated situation and become stronger at a slower pace, or ignore it completely and become stronger at a faster pace". Considering Sasuke's mindset, the moment he left Konoha, the choice he would make seems to be obvious, which is the second one.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by gibits

I agree, Kishi's storytelling has been ass as of late. Well I should say for a while now if it takes how this long to work around the huge plot hole of "why even train Sasuke at all?". I'm hoping Kishi will surprise us and stop changing things around to cater to fans.

Last I checked Anko's cursed seal completely paralyzed her on Oro's command, why is it not doing that now?

Oro convienently loses his instant regeneration against Sasuke?


Oro did try to kidnap Tsunade but she ended up kicking his ass. Now that i think about it Oro has lost every fight since the 3rd. Tsunade one hit KO'd him. Naruto
was tearing him up and would've won if Sakura didn't get in the way. Now Sasuke, the runt that he trained, is going to beat him yet again..... Oro really is kind of a joke now that I think about.

Bad storytelling aside I'm glad Oro is going to get his ass kicked (prolly kicked) his character is just way too one demensional for my taste. Sasori and Diedria are villians I can appreciate, but Oro is so meh. Besides I like the idea that Sasuke is getting revenge for the 3rd. Wish it was done better though....

If Oro could just get whatever he wants then there would be no story now would there?

He's never been beaten in a straight up duel.

He defeated, who was at the time as far as we knew, the strongest ninja alive as well as another Kage and brought Konoha to its knees.

That was a nice introduction to a villain. He took on Jiraiya and Tsunade despite being crippled and still escaped alive.

And presently Sasuke has not defeated him. He attacked a bed ridden Oro and has managed to get his attention. The next chapter could result in a complete 180° turn finding Sasuke in a compromising position.

Oro would have calculated Sasuke's betrayl and come up with an insurance policy to keep him at his side. If you ask me I think Sasuke is being niave in thinking that he can use the Curse Seal against Oro. If that doesn't come into play then Kishimoto's storyline really is going into the shitter.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Suna no tate

Probably trying to just test his own power. In reality, sasuke's never brought anyone significant on his own. This could be in his mind, a final real test (to defeat his master and thus prove he has truly surpassed him)before going after Itachi who he is probably believes will be no joke (as sharingan cancels sharingan).

No half the chapter is about Sasuke showing he despises Orochimaru and how he thinks the old snake is similar to his brother. There is obviously more than just testing his power. Sasuke hates Oro's guts.

Originally Posted by gibits

Last I checked Anko's cursed seal completely paralyzed her on Oro's command, why is it not doing that now?

Oro just had to activate Anko's seal to take her down. Something that would be meaningless on someone purposely using the CS. Now it's possible that Oro can desactivate the CS but with the prevision at the end of this chapter it becomes less and less probable.
The question is rather about the free will stuff that Sakon talked about.

Oro convienently loses his instant regeneration against Sasuke?

Like I said above his regeneration would have healed his wound but that the fact that his body was rejecting his true self. He needed a strong body to fight Sasuke and that meant his true form.

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

Using snakes as part of a long list of techniques is different than relying only on snakes. It is like,a ninjutsu using version of Lee fighting using only taijutsu skills. At the moment, he feels a big threat, he has the choice of changing methods, whereas Oro has to rely on what he has (more like Lee against Gaara).

I have also considered mentioning Manda's name previously, but I really don't think they are at comparable levels (even at the miniaturized level). Also, you are saying unlimited taijutsu skills, but, if I have to compare Oro to a taijutsu specialist, I wouldn't normally put Oro in that state as the stronger. Cause someone who has good taijutsu skills and who is able to combine them with ninjutsu skills will be able to overpower a mere taijutsu specialist, if Oro will be considered that way.

The situation you are talking about would be correct if you were talking about armless Orochimaru without jutsu which isn't the case now.
Oro's true form is something different entirely, I'm not only talking physically -and Oro seems to be quite more dangerous physically wise under this form- because we still haven't seen what he can do with all these snakes.

Sasuke had the choice of not upgrading to cursed seal level 2, when he chose that. He, willingfully, accepted that upgrade, as a present, without paying a single concern to how it might have been established the first time.

Yamato wasn't given that choice. He was born with that.

Yamato isn't born with that and he made the choice to use Mokuton jutsu. He could have used Doton and Suiton jutsu only. But since he is not stupid he learned to use to its maximum the ability he was granted even though it was due to a madman, how is that any different?
Naruto uses the chakra of a terrible demon that killed countless people, should he have firmly refused any training using it and asked Yamato to supress the chakra indefinitively because it would be the rightfull thing to do?
Not using the CS wouldn't save any life, why Sasuke should avoid using it if he can control it? I'm not saying there isn't moral issues about the CS (it brought out inner evil for example) but not the one you are talking about.

Maybe, a good question to separate both cases would be, if Sasuke would be given that choice right now, after reaching the max level with his own abilities, and couldn't see a way to go beyond that, and still feel considerably weaker compared to Itachi, what do you think he would choose after giving that speech? In my opinion, he would say, "go ahead and make me stronger".

Maybe (even thought Sasuke seems to thinks he's not strong enough yet to take on Itachi) but that's completely beside the point Sasuke was making.
Only if he was ready to kill bystanders for his goal -or worse just because he feels like it- then Sasuke would be talking out of his ass.

Sasuke gave the (false) impression of not having the desire to waste other people's lives to become stronger - this is something Oro and Itachi does. But, he doesn't seem to mind walking along the path opened by those methods. Both cases are both different and similar, and Sasuke seems to see only the different point of view and ignore the similar part.

Sasuke does mind since he doesn't do that.

If Sasuke had thought about trying to get rid of Oro the moment he joined him, it might have prevented what Sasuke criticized according to him. Even, if it wouldn't have prevented what Oro likes to do permanently, Sasuke could at least not have felt the guilt of being trained by someone who does what he hates the most when also with him. Still, not good, but, better than not doing anything.

If Sasuke had thought about that he would be a complete morron because he had no chance of success whatsoever. It wouldn't have prevented anything except maybe his growth and his chance to take Orochimaru out later.
Actually I find that worse than not doing anything until he has the capacity to stop Oro for good.

You seem to thing that Sasuke is passing himself as some kind of hero. It's not the case, Naruto is the hero of the story. Naruto os the good guy who feels compassion, etc.
Sasuke is at best now an anti-hero in shade of grey, which meant he hates the vilains, the way they are acting and try to take them out but he isn't neccessarily compassionate or always use righteous ways.
But that doesn't make him similar to Itachi & co. That's the whole point of his character and why he finally didn't kill Naruto and spared these redshirt.

Since my mind currently has a strong tendency to criticize Sasuke, here, another possible twisted logic in Sasuke came to my mind to prevent the above from happening, such as, "it seems to be a win-or-loss situation, changing the way Oro operated might affect my training negatively, so either I should avoid that hated situation and become stronger at a slower pace, or ignore it completely and become stronger at a faster pace". Considering Sasuke's mindset, the moment he left Konoha, the choice he would make seems to be obvious, which is the second one.

It seems to be a win-or-loss situation, changing the way Oro operated might affect my training negatively, so either I should avoid that hated situation and become stronger at a slower pace and be taken over by Orochimaru ultimately, or ignore it completely and become stronger at a faster pace and kill him when I will be able to.
Indeed it seems the second one is obvious.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Why not? It's not like Sasuke has moral issues about using the CS and he is fighting one of the strongest person in the show. Sasuke's growth is already unbelievable, if he wasn't using the CS it would be downright insane.
I don't get what you mean by "not really strong".

The same reason as Naruto, i mean all the speech from Yamato and Kakashi about the situation. We see how strong ninja who are actually human can destroy monsters all the way in Naruto:
- sound 5 destroyed after they went CS2
- Gaara losing against Naruto
- demon containers losing agains akatsuki
- puppet-Sasori losing against Chiyo
- Naruto not transforming defeats an akatsukian

The other reason is more simple, in such shonen manga the more human looking people somehow become stronger than the ones who give up their humanity and become monster in order to be stronger. That's the moral of the story, and i think Kishimoto is also writing the story with this in mind. It's still true that Sasuke is in darkness and Naruto in the light, just as it was when Kishimoto finished the first part of the manga. And that logic is so strong that it can make Kakuzu suddenly stupid when he meets the "strong" Naruto

Originally Posted by Hunter

I have a hard time seeing that happening since this chapter.
Before I saw Orochimaru's jutsu as a spiritual one but now it seems Oro is a kind of parasite that consume his host from the inside. That seems too gross to happen to mister Sas"look at my chest"uke.

Since you pointed out that Orochimaru probably switches bodies by leaving the original host and going into another, and that probably he cannot survive in his real parasitic snake form without a host i was thinking that for Orochimaru's survival now the only chance is that he successfully gets into Sasuke's body.
So i was thinking if it could happen somehow, because that would be a major plot twist in my eyes. I was always thinking that Sasuke will be saved from Orochimaru by Naruto. However if what you say is true than there's no time left for such a save, Oro cannot return to the destroyed host and he cannot survive on his own, so he desperately needs Sasuke's body right now. As for Kabuto, i think that he is that kind of smart guy who is an opportunist and not a beliver like Kimimaro, so he will help the one who wins this battle, and will never give his body to Oro. Of course Kishimoto could pull out a ninja from nowhere, but i think that would be too lame because Oro would have nothing more to offer us as a villain if he fails with Sasuke. So the only solution for both Sasuke's and Oro's survival could be that crazy idea of Oro becoming Sasuke's parasite while Sasuke's soul erodes so slowly that it can be still reversed and Sasuke somehow saved.

But as you wrote, Oro's death is much more probable after his flashback. And i have one more reason: Oro killed his sensei, it would perfectly fit the story if he gets killed the same way. And for Sasuke to prove how ruthless he can be with Itachi he could either summon Oro's parents to fight him or make a sharingan genjutsu to mess up Oro's mind with his parents

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by Hunter

I have a hard time seeing that happening since this chapter.
Before I saw Orochimaru's jutsu as a spiritual one but now it seems Oro is a kind of parasite that consume his host from the inside. That seems too gross to happen to mister Sas"look at my chest"uke.

Yeah, I don't like it personally. That snake apparition that was seen in front of his last host was cool and I thought that Oro transforms into a snake spirit and possesses the host, delivering his mind and soul into the body.

Kishimoto seems to enjoy the snake shedding theme which I thought was cool with Orochimaru's kawamiri and body regeneration abilities but the thought of him being a snake parasite is rather disgusting.

He's just a freak of nature all around.

[Mists]

What do you guys think should/would happen?

Oro can't die here, it'll be more poor than giving crap to Kazu and Hidan! He's the closest character we know to having been involved with Akatsuki!

But possibly, Sasuke escapes...Zentsu find Oro and finishes him, takes the ring...


and

in the overall sight of things, what do you think?

Naruto vs Sasuke then vs AL? Or the other way around.

I certainly have a feeling AL is someone related to Konoha, maybe like the 4th's brother or something? Maybe Tsunade's guy?

It feels like Kishi is rushing to get the manga done, maybe so he can start a new manga, or maybe he's satisfied enough and doesn't want to run into the HxH ways

Pt 2 had a lot of hope, but perhaps it is a breakdown because there are just too many characters...

It's hard to see what will happen, will Sas fight Itachi (can we even imagine Sas defeating Itachi?) Or will Naruto fight sense into Sas? Or will Sas win in some cheap-o way...

Perhaps the best thing is that there is a twist and the reason behind Itachi telling Sas to get stronger is some other reason besides fighting him...

Argh it's frustrating, Pt 2 can be so good, but so far not that great....then again not that many fights for the main character because there are too many characters. The only fair fight it seemed was Gaara vs Deidera or Asuma vs Hidan. All the other times we're thrown an injured opponent as some sort of excuse.

Imagine if Itachi uses Mangekyuo, Sasuke screams, and then Sasuke is like 'Tricked ya! I'm immune now...' Yet Itachi would be weaker..........and he would've sealed a demon so he would be even more weaker..........................

bleh
this manga needs to improve!

The anime only makes it more frustrating...

[A.N.B.U]

if you really think abput it the only true way for naruto to get sasuke back would be to defeat itachi for him. maybe after sasuke tries and fails. It may seem harsh and sasuke would be really mad and we wouldn't see him really fight itachi and win but if naruto really wanted sasuke o come back he would have to take away his revenge.

[Jehuty]

I don't know how I should feel about this chapter.

While it's nice that we found out about Orochimaru's true form, it all just seems so anti-climatic. Maybe Sasuke is stronger than Orochimaru, but I really expected a much more epic fight between the two. I mean, granted, Orochimaru isn't done for yet, but the way it's looking it seems that his future is rather bleak.

As for Orochimaru's status as a villian, I don't know... He seeks the meaning of existence, and notice that most of his forbidden jutsus revolve around immortality, and a way to bring back the dead. He probably just wanted to meet his parents again... But somewhere along the way he simply became mad with his ambitions. Even when Sandaime died, he did so with a smile, still loving his "stupid pupil".

So, I can view Orochimaru as someone that must be destroyed, but not necesarily an evil person. Just deranged.

At least, that's the impression his flashback has given me thus far.

(also, it was awesome to have finally seen sandaime again)

[ffantasy]

Kishi's been giving all of us bullshits ever since the Rescue Gaara Arc ended (Sasori and Deidara's fight's brilliant, but there wasn't much explanation about Sasori's past!)
There are just so many plot holes and meaningless death.
Asuma for one, died for no particular important reason.
And Shikamaru defeating Hidan with such ease and with no help at all? (Sakura and Sai aid was of no meaning)? Plain stupid-ness and bullshit. It seems that Kishi is more interested with impressing his fan girls and boys rather than making an interesting plot. (Such a waste of interesting characters that he created: Hidan, Sakura and Sai) Or probably he's just out of ideas and just trying to give us some shit to make the story seems longer.
Wtf is with the Rasen-Shuriken bullshit? Isn't Naruto supposed to be the main character. He deserves to have a way cooler jutsu like the Mangekyou Sharingan or even Raikiri! And the way the ended Kakuzu story was again major lameness. Come on, just suddenly he stopped using elemental jutsus and waited for Naruto to come close with his bushins? If I remembered correctly, he was able to level such a wide area just with Katon: Zukokku. Pathetic. Nope, I take that back, utter stupid-ness! And again, such a waste of characters like Kakuzu, Ino and Chouji (The latter 2s were just sitting ducks).
I concluded that arc as the Shikamaru Arc with other characters doing nothing or worst, making themselves look stupid (Remember Rasen-shuriken?) just so that our dear 'Chuunin' Shikamaru looks good.
Wtf, this manga is call Naruto for goodness sake! lol
And I was expecting something interesting for the next arc and apparently again, Kishi is going to kill off one of the most interesting villians around, Orochimaru for what, you say? Of course to impress Sasuke's fan girls and boys again!
But if and I mean IF (I hope not) Orochimaru is angry, I hope there's an interesting fight. I'll be damn disappointed if he died the way Hidan and Kakuzu did.
And now plot holes! Oh well, it's not like no one were asking themselves why the hell did Orichimaru train Sasuke in the first place or did anyone notices the curse seal? lol! The holes are deep and so damn freaking obvious that there isn't a reason for me to even mention it here.
But knowing Kishi, he'll probably just give a few lame excuses just to make Sasuke shines and dig more plot holes!
I'm seriously doubting whether the first part and 2nd part of Naruto's plot were plan by the same person? lol
Major disappointments for weeks and weeks. Sigh...

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

The same reason as Naruto, i mean all the speech from Yamato and Kakashi about the situation. We see how strong ninja who are actually human can destroy monsters all the way in Naruto:
- sound 5 destroyed after they went CS2
- Gaara losing against Naruto
- demon containers losing agains akatsuki
- puppet-Sasori losing against Chiyo
- Naruto not transforming defeats an akatsukian

The other reason is more simple, in such shonen manga the more human looking people somehow become stronger than the ones who give up their humanity and become monster in order to be stronger. That's the moral of the story, and i think Kishimoto is also writing the story with this in mind. It's still true that Sasuke is in darkness and Naruto in the light, just as it was when Kishimoto finished the first part of the manga. And that logic is so strong that it can make Kakuzu suddenly stupid when he meets the "strong" Naruto

Yamato's speech doesn't make 4tailed Naruto weak. Too dangerous yes, but still insanely powerful even as a mindless beast.
Most of your examples are monster against monster anyway, Jinchuuriki against Jinchuuriki or Jinchuuriki against freaks. And here again this is a fight against two monsters.
After this childhood flashback I could still see Orochimaru coming on top if that was the beginning of a longer part about Oro's past but it seems that's the whole of it.
The chapter ends with the line : "[I]Good fortune, rebirth… and immortality. The monster that was born from such a twisted wish, is now the prey of an even greater monster… Next issue, the showdown!!"
Next Chap Preview: The master and student know each other well… The result of the clash between them is!? Next issue: “New Era”!!"

Prey of an even greater monster? New Era?
Honestly it really doesn't sound too good for Orochimaru.

[-HyugaNeji-]

Originally Posted by ffantasy

Kishi's been giving all of us bullshits ever since the Rescue Gaara Arc ended (Sasori and Deidara's fight's brilliant, but there wasn't much explanation about Sasori's past!)
There are just so many plot holes and meaningless death.
Asuma for one, died for no particular important reason.
And Shikamaru defeating Hidan with such ease and with no help at all? (Sakura and Sai aid was of no meaning)? Plain stupid-ness and bullshit. It seems that Kishi is more interested with impressing his fan girls and boys rather than making an interesting plot. (Such a waste of interesting characters that he created: Hidan, Sakura and Sai) Or probably he's just out of ideas and just trying to give us some shit to make the story seems longer.
Wtf is with the Rasen-Shuriken bullshit? Isn't Naruto supposed to be the main character. He deserves to have a way cooler jutsu like the Mangekyou Sharingan or even Raikiri! And the way the ended Kakuzu story was again major lameness. Come on, just suddenly he stopped using elemental jutsus and waited for Naruto to come close with his bushins? If I remembered correctly, he was able to level such a wide area just with Katon: Zukokku. Pathetic. Nope, I take that back, utter stupid-ness! And again, such a waste of characters like Kakuzu, Ino and Chouji (The latter 2s were just sitting ducks).
I concluded that arc as the Shikamaru Arc with other characters doing nothing or worst, making themselves look stupid (Remember Rasen-shuriken?) just so that our dear 'Chuunin' Shikamaru looks good.
Wtf, this manga is call Naruto for goodness sake! lol
And I was expecting something interesting for the next arc and apparently again, Kishi is going to kill off one of the most interesting villians around, Orochimaru for what, you say? Of course to impress Sasuke's fan girls and boys again!
But if and I mean IF (I hope not) Orochimaru is angry, I hope there's an interesting fight. I'll be damn disappointed if he died the way Hidan and Kakuzu did.
And now plot holes! Oh well, it's not like no one were asking themselves why the hell did Orichimaru train Sasuke in the first place or did anyone notices the curse seal? lol! The holes are deep and so damn freaking obvious that there isn't a reason for me to even mention it here.
But knowing Kishi, he'll probably just give a few lame excuses just to make Sasuke shines and dig more plot holes!
I'm seriously doubting whether the first part and 2nd part of Naruto's plot were plan by the same person? lol
Major disappointments for weeks and weeks. Sigh...

Damn right man. You can CLEARLY see, that kishimoto is no professionel storyteller. He has no real concept behind all this. On the contrary. For me, it seems, he just creates the story, while drawing the chapters, without any major ideas behind it, pulling stuff out of his ass, contradicting himself countless times.

I don't even want to argue and debate, because this is a manga, a created story, there is nothing to interpret, and there's no need to write PAGES of analysis and explications. You just have to look at what's there and you come to the conclusion, that the whole story is just a mess of plotholes and deus ex machinas. No logic after all. And by logic i don't mean scientific logic. This is a fantasy story, no need for Real life logic there. BUT. I can ask for a logic storyline.

I'm just curious how he wants to end this whole manga someday. I bet, it will be one HELL of an anticlimatic and stuipd ending. This happens always, when you write your whole story around "stupid mysteries" and "maybe's". A good story has to be kind of obvious with a coherent plot, to be able to surprise you at the end. Naruto's ending will be extremly anti climatc. I promise.

[Ori]

Well... titles have been misleading before, I wouldn't be surprised this is another one of those, and the battle actually goes on for many chapters after this.

Having said that, like I said before, things at this point really doesn't look good for Oro regardless of general "shounen laws" especially since Oro just had a flashback.

[Zu Ra]

I found Rasen-Shuriken really stupid . It was a modification of an old Jutsu I was expecting something better while what we got was a rehashed version of Rasengam . Its high time Kishi put his thinking cap on and wrote something creative .

[f00l]

Originally Posted by Mists

I am truly disappointed in Kishi's story telling as of late. Last chapter there was some redemption...But come on!

First:

Why did Oro teach Sasuke enough be such a difficult threat (don't give me Oro is injured BS, he should've realized the sickness way before!)

I am guessing that since Oro did not realize whose chakra blade attacked him maybe sasuke held himself back a bit and didn't show Oro much of his abilities so that Oro would not be "worried" about his strength.

[-HyugaNeji-]

Originally Posted by Geta Boshi

I found Rasen-Shuriken really stupid . It was a modification of an old Jutsu I was expecting something better while what we got was a rehashed version of Rasengam . Its high time Kishi put his thinking cap on and wrote something creative .

He better not tries to be creative. He should better get himself some books about good storytelling and learn to be a bit more coherent. I think we already got TOO much creativity from him. Now he should get to the basics.

[Negro_Naruto]

I liked this chapter. One question that i see being asked so many times is why did orochimaru train sasuke? i think he needed to give sasuke a reason to stay around for 3 years. That's the reason why sasuke came to him in the first place. Some people need to realize that not everything has to or will be explained in a manga. just like when hayate died, it could seem like he died too quickly and that there should have been more background info on him but in later in the series you can see that it doesn't matter that much.
Hidan and Kakuzu didn't die stupidly: they just happened to face the one kind of opponent they couldn't deal with: a smart guy and an unpredictable ninja with basic fighting techniques. As for kakuzu, his fight is just like when an expert a fighting game loses to a beginner. the expert has lots of experience and knows intricate ways of defeating someone but the begginner uses such simple tactics that the expert just doesn't anticipate.(trust me, that happened to me a couple of times)

Anyways, i liked the way this chapter relates to their first confrontation during the chuunin exam, when oro was talking smack. at that time sasuke was shown as an egg in a nest and oro as a snake about to aet the eggs. now sasuke talks about how oro will be in the talons of a hawk.

[MobiuS]

Well now.

Its obvious the filler staff was assigned this chapter to write.

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Oro is in a do or die situation not because Sasuke is kicking his ass (well not only that) but because he already abandoned his host. If Oro isn't able to take over Sasuke's body he better find someone else's body very quicky or he's a dead snake.

Aren't there a thousand beat up but still alive ninja close to here? If he can find that many ninja for Sasuke to defeat . . .

Seriously though, Orochimaru has Kabuto who is very close by. If he didn't feel like he had a chance, he would already be headed towards the backup plan. Besides, even with his arms pinned, one "skin shedding" regeneration jutsu and he's back to full use of his arms. Either he thinks he's good enough to take Sasuke's body, or its another example of IQ dropping to move the plot.

[Zu Ra]

Originally Posted by MobiuS

Well now.

Its obvious the filler staff was assigned this chapter to write.

Strangely I am starting to belive in this conspiracy theory . Its either that or Kishi's not so talented twin brother who needs to learn basics as -HyugaNeji- pointed out Right from Asuma Revenge arc till now Kishi's writing has gone downhill . This little fights which the good guys had with Akatsuki were meant to showcase the awesome powers of Akatsuki . But frankly speaking its doing the contratire