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chronotrig · 2010-07-26, 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaBackpack

I am legitimately curious about it; I'd recommend you put it up here. After all, if you really do have the answer, then you have bragging rights over all of us when EP8 comes out

If there's a problem, then we can collectively revise it. Of course there might be someone that wants their own personal theory to win, but I believe that "The Answer" will be a bit of a collaboration between ALL of us.

I do want to post it, but I'd rather people think about it first. After all, it's a lot harder to argue for something if the other side is absolutely sure that you're wrong before you've said a single word. I did lay out most of my theory before, but even then, a large number of people on the board tried to deny it without first taking it seriously. Unfortunately, you can't win an argument under those conditions in a game as complex as Umineko.

Plus, I'd like to take some time to lay it out a bit more clearly.

Judoh · 2010-07-26, 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaBackpack

I am legitimately curious about it; I'd recommend you put it up here. After all, if you really do have the answer, then you have bragging rights over all of us when EP8 comes out

If there's a problem, then we can collectively revise it. Of course there might be someone that wants their own personal theory to win, but I believe that "The Answer" will be a bit of a collaboration between ALL of us.

He posted it in detail before. It's either buried under the hundreds of pages here or he deleted it and I think he did delete some parts of it.

Like Oliver has pointed out it's hard to discuss anything about it when he doesn't put it in it's complete stage in his sig. But I can see why he wouldn't want to.

UsagiTenpura · 2010-07-26, 16:51

I'm going to use the cheese from arc 6 as an example.

We're told that yeah, it's possible thanks to twisted logic to come up with the answer 1. Battler himself says that it makes no REAL sense, but in the world of twisted logic it works.
It's funny how the answer is about turning 3 into 1, exactly like Shkanontrice so I'm going to say the following.

When you see that question as a trick question, the answer of 1 is a good answer. However if we were given a scene about how Gohda prepares cheese and he sliced it in Battler's way, I'd find it hard to swallow. No it's not impossible, but only in the world of twisted logic does it make any sense. That's my point about Shkanon. It's not that it doesn't work, but it's too twisted a logic. I personally think this is closer to the answer of love.

Without love Umineko is only a riddle, any twisted logic answer can be used.
With love Umineko is a self respecting story, all twisted logic answers are wrong.

Kylon99 · 2010-07-26, 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judoh

Doesn't recruiting people for faking remove the base of that trial anyway? Wasn't it to prove your willing to kill someone for the person you love? In reality they didn't do that.

This is what my problem was too, with fantasy scenes. Basically some part of it is true but then the rest is a bunch of nonsense pulled out of nowhere and means nothing.

Instead, I'm toying with the idea that the fantasy scenes are made up with what the (in this case) cousins WANTED to say about themselves or the situation. Fantastic or not... they wanted to say they were all willing to go to such extreme lengths for their love...

EDIT: Aww crap.. I'm two pages back or something now...

chronotrig · 2010-07-26, 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kylon99

This is what my problem was too, with fantasy scenes. Basically some part of it is true but then the rest is a bunch of nonsense pulled out of nowhere and means nothing.

Instead, I'm toying with the idea that the fantasy scenes are made up with what the (in this case) cousins WANTED to say about themselves or the situation. Fantastic or not... they wanted to say they were all willing to go to such extreme lengths for their love...

EDIT: Aww crap.. I'm two pages back or something now...

Yeah, sorry...

Well, even in the love trial, the cousins weren't actually killing people. They were just removing them from the game board in their little meta world. Which, by the way, implies that they are all working together to plan the game (i.e. the fake murders). It's still a trial of love, probably, if Sayo has to decide which of the three she feels the most strongly for.

Renall · 2010-07-26, 17:16

We fixate too much on love. I think Usagi's point is valid and worthy of scrutiny, but I don't necessarily agree with his (her?) conclusion that it might make Beatrice (whoever she may be) a person worthy of contempt. After all, there are plenty of theories that Beatrice isn't the murderer.

We should ask ourselves, why can Battler so easily forgive her? Obviously if she isn't even the killer, that would remove one huge obstacle to "forgiving" her, as he would only be forgiving her deceptions and meta-world actions, most of which are "necessary evils" he comes to understand she did not want to portray as her own fault in the first place.

But let's dive head-first into the deep end: Suppose it is true that Beatrice or her associated piece is somehow responsible, or at least culpable, for the deaths. What would Battler have to realize to be able to shine love through that and forgive her? Let us assume Battler is a rational person who is not willing to overlook things easily, as he has demonstrated himself to be quite vindictive at times. Even so, surely we can come up with something that would allow him to judge that Beatrice has either suffered enough or deserves no significant punishment. What would that be?

DaBackpack · 2010-07-26, 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renall

We fixate too much on love. I think Usagi's point is valid and worthy of scrutiny, but I don't necessarily agree with his (her?) conclusion that it might make Beatrice (whoever she may be) a person worthy of contempt. After all, there are plenty of theories that Beatrice isn't the murderer.

We should ask ourselves, why can Battler so easily forgive her? Obviously if she isn't even the killer, that would remove one huge obstacle to "forgiving" her, as he would only be forgiving her deceptions and meta-world actions, most of which are "necessary evils" he comes to understand she did not want to portray as her own fault in the first place.

But let's dive head-first into the deep end: Suppose it is true that Beatrice or her associated piece is somehow responsible, or at least culpable, for the deaths. What would Battler have to realize to be able to shine love through that and forgive her? Let us assume Battler is a rational person who is not willing to overlook things easily, as he has demonstrated himself to be quite vindictive at times. Even so, surely we can come up with something that would allow him to judge that Beatrice has either suffered enough or deserves no significant punishment. What would that be?

If Beatrice is the murderer:
*The murders were done to prevent an even worse fate from reaching them. Not quite sure what this could be, though.
*The people that were truly murdered deserved to die, because of unknown (or known?) reason "X".

If Beatrice is not the murderer:
*She seems to take responsibility for the crimes, even though she didn't actually do them. Maybe she was so bold as to take responsibility for the crimes but she was actually trying to prevent them?

(Those possibilities are just random thoughts, not necessarily connected to any particular culprit.)

Judoh · 2010-07-26, 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaBackpack

*The people that were truly murdered deserved to die, because of unknown (or known?) reason "X".

Then It's like And then there were none. Every one of them is responsible for someone's death. Whether it be indirectly because they could've prevented it or directly by actually killing them, but the culprit has a justice complex and can't find a way to see them as innocent. We already have at least two of those stories in Umineko. Three if you count Kyrie and Asumu's story.

Quote:

If Beatrice is not the murderer:
*She seems to take responsibility for the crimes, even though she didn't actually do them. Maybe she was so bold as to take responsibility for the crimes but she was actually trying to prevent them?

This would be exactly the case if we take all the reds Virgilia gives about her motive as to how the Ghost story of Beato wouldn't go about killing people instead of an actual human.

UsagiTenpura · 2010-07-26, 17:49

Thank you Renall.

No amount of suffering can truly excuse causing pain unto others. That's LD's and Bern's world, using their own tragic past as excuses to be cruel. Battler hates them, especially Bern. If that was it then he'd change his view on them as well.

So unless she's not the culprit (which I mostly believe anyway) I can think of two categories of "reasons why killing is acceptable".
- To protect someone else (or possibly yourself)
- To ease their sufferings

The later one is also wrong if you make that decision by yourself. However it can be argued it's sorta what Kanon did to Rosa in arc 6 (so there's antecedants/hints for it)
The former would likely only work if the "protected ones" were Battler and/or Maria I think? Many parents said they'd become demons/kills for their child's sake.

There's also insanely crazy theories why we're at it. Let's say Beato is a hitman that everyone hired to kill everyone one else for instance (without knowing the rest of them did so). That way it's theorically not really her fault that way that everyone dies.

Still I find it very hard to believe Beatrice is the culprit. That feeling isn't new either. In a general way it's the goal of the game. It's like proving Oyashiro-sama innocent in Higurashi.

DaBackpack · 2010-07-26, 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judoh

This would be exactly the case if we take all the reds Virgilia gives about her motive as to how the Ghost story of Beato wouldn't go about killing people instead of an actual human.

Let's say, hypothetically, George did it. Now if Shannon is "Beatrice" (just as an example) her love for George might make her confess to his crime to spare George!

That would be one example of how Battler forgave Beatrice (especially if "George" in this case is actually "Battler").

...But I don't really see anyone placing the blame on anyone else (save for Natsuhi); they seem to want to escape the murders more than find the culprit.

Judoh · 2010-07-26, 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaBackpack

That would be one example of how Battler forgave Beatrice (especially if "George" in this case is actually "Battler").

Are you suggesting George might be the other Battler? Or that our Battler is the culprit?

DaBackpack · 2010-07-26, 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judoh

Are you suggesting George might be the other Battler? Or that our Battler is the culprit?

Neither; as I said, I was just using a random example using a popular suspect.

The point is, if "Beatrice" took the blame for her loved one (just for the purpose of this idea, Shannon took George's responsibility, or if Jessica took Kanon's responsibility) then Battler would respect Beatrice instead of thinking of her negatively.

It doesn't say that finding Beato's motive in EP5 makes him happy about everything; I think he just forgave Beato.

So he might have directed his enmity away from Beato and just to the real culprit.
If "Beatrice" is not the real culprit (but takes blame for it anyway) then Battler forgave her because what she did was noble. Instead, he hates the real culprit for his crimes. After all, Battler's opinions about his other family members are not mentioned that much after the end of EP5.

Edit: This especially works if Jessica is Beatrice because of Jessica's actions in EP4: she was willing to kill herself to save Kanon. Not that Jessica is Beatrice for real, just pointing out a cool tidbit

Judoh · 2010-07-26, 18:18

I understand that too. What I'm saying though is that an actual human person called Beatrice doesn't need to take the blame for it for this to work. Just the legend of Beatrice does. And that's exactly what the witch hunters in 1998 do with the legend. It serves as a truth that covers up the real truth. Hence why I explained it originally as the "Ghost story of Beato".

Renall · 2010-07-26, 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judoh

I understand that too. What I'm saying though is that an actual human person called Beatrice doesn't need to take the blame for it for this to work. Just the legend of Beatrice does. And that's exactly what the witch hunters in 1998 do with the legend. It serves as a truth that covers up the real truth. Hence why I explained it originally as the "Ghost story of Beato".

Per Author Theory, if "Beatrice" authors the witch legend that obscures the truth of Rokkenjima, she is essentially "taking the blame" for it by willingly becoming the person who confuses the issue and, perhaps, makes the truth unknowable for all time.

musouka · 2010-07-26, 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaBackpack

It doesn't say that finding Beato's motive in EP5 makes him happy about everything; I think he just forgave Beato.

Battler didn't forgive Beato, he begged her forgiveness.

Judoh · 2010-07-26, 19:04

Battler might not be looking for Beato's motive either. He just said he'd finally turn the chess board over in that episode. That doesn't immediately mean that she's the culprit and she has a motive. It's been ingrained in our thoughts since the beginning to think that she does.

If you remember at the very beginning of that episode Battler was trying to repeat her moves on a chessboard and he couldn't figure out why she made the moves she did. None of them made sense to him because they were full of contradictions and disadvantages. Turning the chess board over on her might just mean to figure out how the witch's side works.

zRyuu · 2010-07-26, 20:01

The whole EP5 and 6 was focused on figuring out what the hell Beato was thinking when doing all those moves which left openings and stuffs like that. In the end, i think that Battler figured it out. Now that he understood Beato, he was able to turn the chessboard over on her and solve most or possibly every riddle in the gameboard, well at least he figured out the core truth. If what my understanding of the gold is correct, then the fact that Battler used the gold is proof that he certainly understood Beato, thus understood her game. It has never been stated in red that Beatrice = culprit. In fact red texts such as, "I will keep my promise" and then EP3 could lead us to think that it's someone else's plan to kill every1. And if we consider EP6, Beatrice = roulette which chose Kanon, the 0 = miracle that revived her, and Kanon = rescuer, then it's even possible to say that Beatrice = rescuer. The whole thing of Kanon and the promise he had with Beatrice can also be interpreted as a hint telling us that he was Beatrice in that episode.

Judoh · 2010-07-26, 20:04

The roulette thing is interesting by the way. Is the roulette game the french type or the American type? Because the American type has two zero pockets.

zRyuu · 2010-07-26, 20:07

I speculate that it will become the American type and Battler will be the double 00

. Battler being the 00 and Beatrice choosing him in the roulette = him keeping his promise = happy ending?

Battler made a promise with Kanon. The happy ending is related to Kanon's happy ending? Hmmmmm. Kanon's happy ending = becoming a human to love Jessica. So again we can make a relation with everything that is happening and Jessica here

And i guess that's the only way for Battler to keep his promises anyway

So this is how I think EP7 or 8 might be and the end of everything. Of course, i could be wrong and Battler's promise with Kanon might be something far less important. But, we all know Kanon is one of those strange characters in the game. It's hard to say that he doesnt have a big role in the whole solution of the game.

Edit: Now that I think about it the problem about Battler's promise is that if we take the love trial literally it's either Kanon or Shannon (or Battler) who will have a happy ending with the ones they love (and I still cant think of a good reason why only Shannon or Kanon can achieve love other than Shkanon theory). So George will have a bad ending and Battler, too. Battler's bad ending is to be expected though, Beatrice will be denied on HIS WORLD. Unless there is some trick around the whole love trial. This might be related to whoever the culprit is. After all if Battler's promise is really important for the happy ending like I think it is, then George (the culprit?) is the only one who will have a bad ending.

UsagiTenpura · 2010-07-26, 20:07

There's been analogies in arc 6 that it's... a russian roulette...
Heh thinking of it, let's say everyone plays russian roulette until 6 people are dead.
What kind of weird red could be said about it...
Does it really count as killing yourself?
Does it really count as accidental?
Does it really count as murder?

Somehow it feels it could evade all three...
I'm not thinking this theory makes sense btw, I'm more amused at the possible red it could gives.

2010-07-26, 17:16	Link #14626
Renall BUY MY BOOK!!! Join Date: May 2009	We fixate too much on love. I think Usagi's point is valid and worthy of scrutiny, but I don't necessarily agree with his (her?) conclusion that it might make Beatrice (whoever she may be) a person worthy of contempt. After all, there are plenty of theories that Beatrice isn't the murderer. We should ask ourselves, why can Battler so easily forgive her? Obviously if she isn't even the killer, that would remove one huge obstacle to "forgiving" her, as he would only be forgiving her deceptions and meta-world actions, most of which are "necessary evils" he comes to understand she did not want to portray as her own fault in the first place. But let's dive head-first into the deep end: Suppose it is true that Beatrice or her associated piece is somehow responsible, or at least culpable, for the deaths. What would Battler have to realize to be able to shine love through that and forgive her? Let us assume Battler is a rational person who is not willing to overlook things easily, as he has demonstrated himself to be quite vindictive at times. Even so, surely we can come up with something that would allow him to judge that Beatrice has either suffered enough or deserves no significant punishment. What would that be? __________________ Redaction of the Golden Witch I submit that a murder was committed in 1996. This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986. This story is a redacted confession. Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists Battler Solves The Logic Error

2010-07-26, 18:18	Link #14633
Judoh Mystery buff Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Gone Fishin!	I understand that too. What I'm saying though is that an actual human person called Beatrice doesn't need to take the blame for it for this to work. Just the legend of Beatrice does. And that's exactly what the witch hunters in 1998 do with the legend. It serves as a truth that covers up the real truth. Hence why I explained it originally as the "Ghost story of Beato". __________________ Judoh's George Culprit Analysis George steals candy from kids! Archive of Ryukishi interviews Gold truth theories:" Last edited by Judoh; 2010-07-26 at 19:01.

2010-07-26, 19:04	Link #14636
Judoh Mystery buff Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Gone Fishin!	Battler might not be looking for Beato's motive either. He just said he'd finally turn the chess board over in that episode. That doesn't immediately mean that she's the culprit and she has a motive. It's been ingrained in our thoughts since the beginning to think that she does. If you remember at the very beginning of that episode Battler was trying to repeat her moves on a chessboard and he couldn't figure out why she made the moves she did. None of them made sense to him because they were full of contradictions and disadvantages. Turning the chess board over on her might just mean to figure out how the witch's side works. __________________ Judoh's George Culprit Analysis George steals candy from kids! Archive of Ryukishi interviews Gold truth theories:" Last edited by Judoh; 2010-07-26 at 19:19.

2010-07-26, 20:04	Link #14638
Judoh Mystery buff Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Gone Fishin!	The roulette thing is interesting by the way. Is the roulette game the french type or the American type? Because the American type has two zero pockets. __________________ Judoh's George Culprit Analysis George steals candy from kids! Archive of Ryukishi interviews Gold truth theories:"

2010-07-26, 20:07	Link #14639
zRyuu Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010	I speculate that it will become the American type and Battler will be the double 00 . Battler being the 00 and Beatrice choosing him in the roulette = him keeping his promise = happy ending? Battler made a promise with Kanon. The happy ending is related to Kanon's happy ending? Hmmmmm. Kanon's happy ending = becoming a human to love Jessica. So again we can make a relation with everything that is happening and Jessica here And i guess that's the only way for Battler to keep his promises anyway So this is how I think EP7 or 8 might be and the end of everything. Of course, i could be wrong and Battler's promise with Kanon might be something far less important. But, we all know Kanon is one of those strange characters in the game. It's hard to say that he doesnt have a big role in the whole solution of the game. Edit: Now that I think about it the problem about Battler's promise is that if we take the love trial literally it's either Kanon or Shannon (or Battler) who will have a happy ending with the ones they love (and I still cant think of a good reason why only Shannon or Kanon can achieve love other than Shkanon theory). So George will have a bad ending and Battler, too. Battler's bad ending is to be expected though, Beatrice will be denied on HIS WORLD. Unless there is some trick around the whole love trial. This might be related to whoever the culprit is. After all if Battler's promise is really important for the happy ending like I think it is, then George (the culprit?) is the only one who will have a bad ending. Last edited by zRyuu; 2010-07-26 at 20:31.

2010-07-26, 16:51	Link #14623
UsagiTenpura Artist Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Yesterday!	I'm going to use the cheese from arc 6 as an example. We're told that yeah, it's possible thanks to twisted logic to come up with the answer 1. Battler himself says that it makes no REAL sense, but in the world of twisted logic it works. It's funny how the answer is about turning 3 into 1, exactly like Shkanontrice so I'm going to say the following. When you see that question as a trick question, the answer of 1 is a good answer. However if we were given a scene about how Gohda prepares cheese and he sliced it in Battler's way, I'd find it hard to swallow. No it's not impossible, but only in the world of twisted logic does it make any sense. That's my point about Shkanon. It's not that it doesn't work, but it's too twisted a logic. I personally think this is closer to the answer of love. Without love Umineko is only a riddle, any twisted logic answer can be used. With love Umineko is a self respecting story, all twisted logic answers are wrong.

2010-07-26, 17:49	Link #14629
UsagiTenpura Artist Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Yesterday!	Thank you Renall. No amount of suffering can truly excuse causing pain unto others. That's LD's and Bern's world, using their own tragic past as excuses to be cruel. Battler hates them, especially Bern. If that was it then he'd change his view on them as well. So unless she's not the culprit (which I mostly believe anyway) I can think of two categories of "reasons why killing is acceptable". - To protect someone else (or possibly yourself) - To ease their sufferings The later one is also wrong if you make that decision by yourself. However it can be argued it's sorta what Kanon did to Rosa in arc 6 (so there's antecedants/hints for it) The former would likely only work if the "protected ones" were Battler and/or Maria I think? Many parents said they'd become demons/kills for their child's sake. There's also insanely crazy theories why we're at it. Let's say Beato is a hitman that everyone hired to kill everyone one else for instance (without knowing the rest of them did so). That way it's theorically not really her fault that way that everyone dies. Still I find it very hard to believe Beatrice is the culprit. That feeling isn't new either. In a general way it's the goal of the game. It's like proving Oyashiro-sama innocent in Higurashi.

2010-07-26, 20:01	Link #14637
zRyuu Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010	The whole EP5 and 6 was focused on figuring out what the hell Beato was thinking when doing all those moves which left openings and stuffs like that. In the end, i think that Battler figured it out. Now that he understood Beato, he was able to turn the chessboard over on her and solve most or possibly every riddle in the gameboard, well at least he figured out the core truth. If what my understanding of the gold is correct, then the fact that Battler used the gold is proof that he certainly understood Beato, thus understood her game. It has never been stated in red that Beatrice = culprit. In fact red texts such as, "I will keep my promise" and then EP3 could lead us to think that it's someone else's plan to kill every1. And if we consider EP6, Beatrice = roulette which chose Kanon, the 0 = miracle that revived her, and Kanon = rescuer, then it's even possible to say that Beatrice = rescuer. The whole thing of Kanon and the promise he had with Beatrice can also be interpreted as a hint telling us that he was Beatrice in that episode.

2010-07-26, 20:07	Link #14640
UsagiTenpura Artist Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Yesterday!	There's been analogies in arc 6 that it's... a russian roulette... Heh thinking of it, let's say everyone plays russian roulette until 6 people are dead. What kind of weird red could be said about it... Does it really count as killing yourself? Does it really count as accidental? Does it really count as murder? Somehow it feels it could evade all three... I'm not thinking this theory makes sense btw, I'm more amused at the possible red it could gives.