Aldnoah.Zero - Episode 19 Discussion / Poll

[Raviel]

Originally Posted by noobita

So, the scene where Slaine ditched the blue rose indicated he is jealous?

I don't know, the popular (and of course more fun) opinion is that he was jealous.

Personally, I think it's more about Slaine thinking he has no right to be acting like her friend after all he's done.

Honestly, I'd really like it if they never played the whole jealousy thing seriously with Slaine. I always thought it was something that the fans themselves like to interpret from the show rather than it being an actual part of Slaine's character.

I know logic and sense aren't exactly the strong points of this series but if jealousy is actually going to be a serious driving force for Slaine later on..........then that would just seem a bit too shallow a choice from the directors (for me anyway).

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by monster

I'm not saying they're mere puppets of the royalty, but outright disobedience has not been shown. And even with Saazbaum's betrayal, no matter how many allies he has, he obviously doesn't have enough if he keeps it a secret. So I think there is still genuine loyalty to the royals among the counts.

And as far as their desire to conquer Earth, remember that it was the royals that urged them on to do that in the first place. Their actual desire is to gain resources for themselves. If Asseylum can provide another way to do it without conquering Earth, then I don't think they would all rebel as long as they still get those resources.

I think there would be a danger of outright rebellion if they were to know of Slaine's plan to overthrow the current hierarchy. I don't remember that part. I thought they have trouble with transportation because the gate was destroyed.

The question is, how do they get resources for their people and improve living conditions in a peaceful way? And how can she convince the counts who are mostly still under the sway of her father's words?

The part about the knights refusing orders is in the timeline and other supplementary material. Unfortunately, one of the the things that I hate about this show is that the writers and creators didn't want to "bog down" the series by including too many details and so stuck a whole lot of important information in the supplementary material and side manga, that if included might have painted a different picture. This includes stuff that happened before the first war and how the UFE isn't so blameless as the show paints them. It shows Slaine and Inaho's past and Slaine's full relationship with Asseylum and Inaho's with Yuki. It tells you even the major theory as to who and what the aliens were that had all this Aldnoah technology and why it responds to humans. I think they should have included a lot more that what they did, as it could have given a lot more development to the situation and the characters.

For example if everyone had seen examples or flashbacks of Yuki and Inaho's childhood and how she had to basically take care of him on her own when their parents died not long after he was born, and that basically he is as much son to her as brother, people might have understood more about her concerns for him and why she was so anxious to get him off the battlefield.

The same with Slaine and Asseylum, if they had shown a little more in depth, the closeness of their friendship that they had those three years that he was on Mars, and that she actually literally went into a depression when Cruhteo took him away, they might not be so quick to think that Asseylum's just going to toss him aside and leave him, in spite of what he's done. It's not in her nature to leave a friend, especially one that has lost his way. She will help him as much as she can, even if it kills her. If she was willing to die by Rayet's hands, a girl she barely knew, who she though she had wronged, do you think that she would really abandon her best and first friend that she was with for more than three years, when he's lost his way? I really don't think so.

I honestly don't care about ships or anything like that. I really don't think that Asseylum will wind up with either boy. But if I had to chose one, I'd say that she would be with Inaho, romantically, but Slaine would always still be her friend. I've grown to like Slaine/Lemrina. Lemrina just needs to let go of her grudge and her hatred and jealousy. I think that is what's really standing in the way of anything developing between them.

Originally Posted by Raviel

I don't know, the popular (and of course more fun) opinion is that he was jealous.

Personally, I think it's more about Slaine thinking he has no right to be acting like her friend after all he's done.

Honestly, I'd really like it if they never played the whole jealousy thing seriously with Slaine. I always thought it was something that the fans themselves like to interpret from the show rather than it being an actual part of Slaine's character.

I know logic and sense aren't exactly the strong points of this series but if jealousy is actually going to be a serious driving force for Slaine later on..........then that would just seem a bit too shallow a choice from the directors (for me anyway).

I don't think it was jealousy, even though that's what everyone's running with. If the roses were going to be a romantic gesture, he would have brought red roses (he just went over flower language with Eddelrittuo). Instead he brought blue roses, probably considering the miracle of her awaking which he though would never happen. However, I think that when she said Inaho's name it basically brought back the fact that he's fighting a war out there, and doing things that will probably make her sad. So, he left without seeing her. Honestly, right now, considering her speech patterns and behavior, I don't think Asseylum is altogether yet and probably couldn't handle any kind of info dump from anybody. Another reason why he probably doesn't want Lemrina to know. So, it's a good thing that she takes it slow. Eddelrittuo knew he left them there and is worried for him.

Also, blue roses were important enough that it was the hidden object of the week:

[setsunafseiei]

Originally Posted by Raviel

I don't know, the popular (and of course more fun) opinion is that he was jealous.

Personally, I think it's more about Slaine thinking he has no right to be acting like her friend after all he's done.

Honestly, I'd really like it if they never played the whole jealousy thing seriously with Slaine. I always thought it was something that the fans themselves like to interpret from the show rather than it being an actual part of Slaine's character.

I know logic and sense aren't exactly the strong points of this series but if jealousy is actually going to be a serious driving force for Slaine later on..........then that would just seem a bit too shallow a choice from the directors (for me anyway).

If he think's he has no right to acting like her friend he would not have thrown away the flower after hearing her recalling Inaho . Even Slaine not denying Lemrina that he loves her sister . Those who said its more of a devotion/admiration I disagree , it might be before but now the feeling have grown into love more than just a friend .

The obvious would happen he is going to get friendzone like it or not . Girls are complicated they like someone that being ass to them instead those who threat them with care . Being shallow ? Nah just adding love triangle

Adding Lemrina as consolation for Slaine aint that bad. She can always cosplay as her sister looks the same sound the same

[monster]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

The question is, how do they get resources for their people and improve living conditions in a peaceful way? And how can she convince the counts who are mostly still under the sway of her father's words?

Yes, I think Japan's use of multiple media can get annoying because you sometimes can miss things. As far as getting resources peacefully, I still think that's what Asseylum was hoping for with her visit to Earth. And since Earth welcomed her, there was still a possibility of that happening.

But with the current situation of the war and the growing hate Earth has come to have of Mars, it would be difficult. So we'll see what the next few episodes will show.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by monster

Yes, I think Japan's use of multiple media can get annoying because you sometimes can miss things. As far as getting resources peacefully, I still think that's what Asseylum was hoping for with her visit to Earth. And since Earth welcomed her, there was still a possibility of that happening.

But with the current situation of the war and the growing hate Earth has come to have of Mars, it would be difficult. So we'll see what the next few episodes will show.

I wish I could see this hate you speak of the Earth has. No Terran we have seen, other than Calm, way back in the beginning of the series, hates Martians, in fact they don't even seem to care really. They listen to the broadcasts but don't seem to have much emotion to them, the UFE command doesn't even take the Martians seriously at this point. And other than calling Rayet "Martian" there's not been any prejudice towards her. I've always felt that the Earth side has been severely underdeveloped and that we SHOULD be seeing some hatred or some urgency, or some civilians scrounging and trying to survive. But I see or hear none of that, and I can't honestly care if they really win or lose. How am I supposed to believe that they are struggling and angry when they don't show it to me? I'm seeing guys who want to see girls with their sweats off, or women worrying about getting a date and dieting, or people sunbathing on a beach eating caviar. I know all about trying to maintain normalcy, but I think that with the UFE, they've done it to the point that I don't really care about them. They say they have a plight, and they should, but they don't ACT like they do.

I've only kind of had a connection to Marito, Yuki, Rayet, and Inaho on that side, and one of those 4, is a Martian!

As for Asseylum, I wish I was optimistic as you are, but the problem was that Asseylum didn't even know that Vers had any problems in terms of resources until she had spent time with Rayet and Inaho. Asseylum (again in the manga) never left her castle except either under escort or on this one trip to Earth. She knew nothing of the true problem of why her people hated humans. In fact she states she doesn't understand why to Eddelrittuo in the first episode, and to Inaho in the 12th. She lived in a bubble, a pitiful caged bird.
She wanted to help relations with Earth, not realizing that the problem wasn't with Earth. It was with her own people and her own planet. Even her warmonger father and Saazbaum knew where the true problem lied. I think that if she had tried to make peace without knowing what the real problem was, she would't have really made any progress. It would have been a nice PR stunt, but that was it.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

I wish I could see this hate you speak of the Earth has. No Terran we have seen, other than Clam, way back in the beginning of the series, hates Martians, in fact they don't even seem to care really. They listen to the broadcasts but don't seem to have much emotion to them, the UFE command doesn't even take the Martians seriously at this point. And other than calling Rayet "Martian" there's not been any prejudice towards her. I've always felt that the Earth side has been severely underdeveloped and that we SHOULD be seeing some hatred or some urgency, or some civilians scrounging and trying to survive. But I see or hear none of that, and I can't honestly care if they really win or lose. How am I supposed to believe that they are struggling and angry when they don't show it to me? I'm seeing guys who want to see girls with their sweats off, or women worrying about getting a date and dieting, or people sunbathing on a beach eating caviar. I know all about trying to maintain normalcy, but I think that with the UFE, they've done it to the point that I don't really care about them. They say they have a plight, and they should, but they don't ACT like they do.

I've only kind of had a connection to Marito, Yuki, Rayet, and Inaho on that side, and one of those 4, is a Martian!

Well, if not hate, then certainly distrust, as shown by their attitude toward the Deucalion. As for their lack of urgency, I'd say it's probably due to the slow pace of the Martians themselves. For a people who are supposedly in desparate need, they sure do take their time.

As for Asseylum, I wish I was optimistic as you are, but the problem was that Asseylum didn't even know that Vers had any problems in terms of resources until she had spent time with Rayet and Inaho. Asseylum (again in the manga) never left her castle except either under escort or on this one trip to Earth. She knew nothing of the true problem of why her people hated humans. In fact she states she doesn't understand why to Eddelrittuo in the first episode, and to Inaho in the 12th. She lived in a bubble, a pitiful caged bird.
She wanted to help relations with Earth, not realizing that the problem wasn't with Earth. It was with her own people and her own planet. Even her warmonger father and Saazbaum knew where the true problem lied. I think that if she had tried to make peace without knowing what the real problem was, she would't have really made any progress. It would have been a nice PR stunt, but that was it.

Well, even if she doesn't know it then, communication is always a good starting point. And if she doesn't address Mars's problem, that's why the counts were supposed to inform her. Like I said, the Martians themselves do not act like they need to win for survival. If it's not something they feel is important to tell Asseylum, then one can see why Asseylum wouldn't address it.

[PreSage]

Heh, I knew when Slaine laid out his plan to create a kingdom on Earth that he meant to destroy and conquer the whole populace; he wasn't thinking of merely forging out a niche for Vers. As of now, Slaine has become what he disliked in the first season - he has become just like those Vers he disliked. (And why do I get the vibe that his assistant Martian, whatever his name is, will betray him later? Or maybe I'm just being overly suspicious of assistants in anime. )

I suppose Slaine's idea of stopping the war was to choose one side and conquer the other. With a defined winner then the war will stop - that's probably his logic.

I don't think Slaine is jealous of Inaho in the romantic sense but he is certainly disgruntled with Inaho. Slaine probably believes that Inaho is the white knight in Asseylum's eyes, while he has become the fallen dark knight forever vying for the Princess' attention.

Okay, Inaho seriously needs a mecha upgrade in order to defeat the Orbital Knights now that they've teamed up. Orange-mech will not work in this situation unless he pulls an A-bomb from his behind or something. There's still the kataphrakt that they captured. Or better, switch the A-drive of that into the kataphrakt that was hidden in the first season.

...and Lemrina is such a pitiful girl...it's right for Slaine to be conflicted for what he's dragging that poor girl through.

Originally Posted by lubczyk

I got a feeling that Slaine is conflicted and that he will save Mustang squad by turning on the other counts. Just a feeling. I've seen this in anime many times. The bad guy feels conflicted and assists the good guys in the heat of battle.

Slaine isn't feeling conflicted because he's attacking Earth but he's feeling conflicted because he knows he's going against Asseylum's wishes.

Originally Posted by DevilHighDxD

Unless Asseylum intervene through a live broadcast, I find it difficult for Inaho and Co to get out of this no scratch.

Inaho did say, and probably right too, that at this point Asseylum has very little power over Vers and its army. Also, Slaine definitely would not let her anywhere near a microphone because that will blow up his plan. He's obsessed with her and devoted to her but I don't think, at this point, that he will submit to her like he did before. He has now struggled to gain the ultimate position in Vers and he's not going to let that go.

[Zoel]

Am I feeling like this show is heading towards the same path as Final Fantasy Tactics?

Like Slaine is Delita, Inaho is Ramza and Lemira is Ovelia.

Either way, if it goes something similar, it can't end well for any of the characters.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by monster

Well, if not hate, then certainly distrust, as shown by their attitude toward the Deucalion. As for their lack of urgency, I'd say it's probably due to the slow pace of the Martians themselves. For a people who are supposedly in desperate need, they sure do take their time. Well, even if she doesn't know it then, communication is always a good starting point. And if she doesn't address Mars's problem, that's why the counts were supposed to inform her. Like I said, the Martians themselves do not act like they need to win for survival. If it's not something they feel is important to tell Asseylum, then one can see why Asseylum wouldn't address it.

I think that the Martians lack of urgency is because a lot of them in such chaos of vying for power and infighting between each other, and just hating humans because of that's the thing to do, that they many of them don't even think of the resources, it's kind of a footnote. And even if they do realize it, they are really just trying to get more land for their own glory.

Remember that these counts are basically feudal lords and they act like medieval nobles( where back in the day, there was only really two classes: the upper class with the aristocrats and the church, and the really lower class with the serfs and peons), with no care for anyone but themselves and their close underlings. Saazbaum was actually unique in that he figured out the truth behind what the royals had done and that it was the lower classes that were suffering the most. All the other nobles don't even care to even think about the lower classes. That's why Slaine said that even if they do get resources, the nobles monopoly on Aldnoah would still allow them hold the power and keep all the resources for themselves. Since he specifically mentions this issue, I think that he's got to have something planned to take out this monopoly on Aldnoah and make sure that the resources get to everyone and not just the first class elite.

[SineMora]

Is it just me, or why should we just let VERS take over some of our places that has nukes in them, evacuate people and Kats, then remotely detonate the nuke once they take over...

After all, their Kat is still a Kat... still gets crushed by a battleship.

[kk2extreme]

I wonder what kind of magic will Inaho bring to counter all the new enemies...

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by kk2extreme

I wonder what kind of magic will Inaho bring to counter all the new enemies...

I'm thinking that he's going to expand his eye to the max in order to handle all three opponents, but that Chekhov's gun from before is going to come back in, and it's going to do some irreparable damage to his brain.

Spoiler for relation to next week's episode title:

It'll be the price that is mentioned in next week's title: "Price of Honor(or Glory)"

[Polarpew]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

Well, I'll be the first to say that that was a really good intermediary episode, and that Slaine has begun going down a path of darkness that even he can't find a way out of.

In his efforts to gather support and power in Vers, things have begun to spin a little out of his control. His morality has been skewed and while in his heart he does not wish to do these things, he sees no way out of it but by continuing on no matter the doubts. It's almost like the infection that is Vers politics have begun to infect him because he has had to embrace it wholeheartedly. I can't help but think a tragic end is in store for him unless he can be pulled back from the abyss, and I truly hope that someone can.

Asseylum has awakened, and is now in a wheelchair, however, she seems to have lost some of her memories, but they don't seem to be all gone. She is happy now, but I fear that she will be saddened at what Slaine has done, though unlike others, I doubt she will abandon him or even yell at him. She will try to save and help him as best as she knows how.

As for Lemrina, that is a tragic figure right there, a girl that loves Slaine, but knows that he will never love her back, who is angry at her sister but still cares for her. I don't know what she will do.

Slaine is organizing the counts under one flag, and is having them fight together, which should have been their game plan all along as Inaho and team can't fight well multiple kataphrachts that are fighting all at once. So, Slaine has gained control of Vers and sadly seems to be trying to bring Earth to heel as well. He knows this will hurt Asseylum, but at this point he's gone too far to go back now.

Well, on a good note, he does want the war to end, and it will probably end a lot faster with the counts actually working together rather than apart. Unfortunately, that won't be such a good end for the Terrans, unless Slaine has some other plan up his sleeve.

What shall this mean for Inaho and the gang as well as Mazuurek who's finally gotten back to his castle? I don't know? I wish I saw a good ending here, but I'm honestly not sure how this will end. While many say that Slaine should die or suffer for his actions, anti-heroes like L-elf and Lelouch did much worse things than he and somehow they are still well loved, and L-elf (and some say Lelouch too ) actually survived their perspective series. I'll be interested in seeing where this will end for Slaine, but for now things don't look good for the Earth.

eh, personally, I think Slaine knows what's he's doing. Like Code Geass R2 where Lelouch initially started the rebellion for Nunnally, he realizes when she goes against him that it isn't about her anymore, the cause has evolved to mean something much more to the world at large and that he needs to go through with what he started. Slaine in this case is trying to eliminate the corrupt Vers government/ royalty and to do this, he needs to gather all the Orbital Knights behind him in one banner and move up the ladder to become Emperor so that he can make the changes. This may have began with him trying to support his princess and his infatuation with her, but I predict by the end of the series, it will more about changing the world for the better by getting his hands dirty in the process

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by Polarpew

eh, personally, I think Slaine knows what's he's doing. Like Code Geass R2 where Lelouch initially started the rebellion for Nunnally, he realizes when she goes against him that it isn't about her anymore, the cause has evolved to mean something much more to the world at large and that he needs to go through with what he started. Slaine in this case is trying to eliminate the corrupt Vers government/ royalty and to do this, he needs to gather all the Orbital Knights behind him in one banner and move up the ladder to become Emperor so that he can make the changes. This may have began with him trying to support his princess and his infatuation with her, but I predict by the end of the series, it will more about changing the world for the better by getting his hands dirty in the process

Agree with you, and have been saying that really since this season started. However, I think that Slaine is willing to go down with it just as Lelouch did(?) for the greater good, and Lelouch also did a whole lot more darker and horrible things than even Slaine. It's like what Harklight was alluding to when he said that Slaine seemed to be preparing for the worst. However, I don't think Asseylum or Lemrina or Eddelrittuo or Harklight will let him get swallowed by darkness either. Unlike the first season, where Slaine was totally alone in his fight, he's now got people that care about him. This could still have a tragic end, but the more I'm thinking about it, the less and less I think it'll happen.

[FrejaOne]

Told you so.
He has romantic feelings for the princess.

I feel bad for Slaine. He never has anything handed to him. He can lose or he can choose underhanded tainted methods in order to win, and then the story punishes him for wanting to win. While Inaho keeps winning at life without having to face any sort of moral dilemma or effort whatsoever because he's just that perfect.

[lubczyk]

Originally Posted by IllegalGoddess

Told you so.
He has romantic feelings for the princess.

I feel bad for Slaine. He never has anything handed to him. He can lose or he can choose underhanded tainted methods in order to win, and then the story punishes him for wanting to win. While Inaho keeps winning at life without having to face any sort of moral dilemma or effort whatsoever because he's just that perfect.

You summed up my problem with this show in a nutshell. Inaho has no internal conflict. All he has to do is be a good UFE soldier and protect his family/friends and by doing so he will defeat Vers and rescue his girl. Slaine on the other hand, had to choose between the place his birth, Earth, who rejected him when he tried to join them and shot at him, or choose the side of his upbringing, Vers, whom he was reliant upon to save the girl he loves, looks down upon him and tortured/abused him. Inaho didn't need to be underhanded to rise through the ranks of the UFE, however corrupt it is. Inaho has his friends' and family's support every step of the way. Slaine has none of that.

Let's look at it this. Even if Asseylum died in episode 12, what was Slaine to do, go to UFE HQ and say "Hey, I'm a defector!!! Let me fight with you guys?" He could just as easily been shot in the face by UFE soldiers the moment he stepped out of his mech. Slaine needed Sazzbaum and the Princess just not to be killed by Vers.

Slaine's trying to kill counts and create a resource rich homeland for Martians from the inside with little support while being NTR'd by the girl he loves while trying to end an interplanetary war of genocide. All Inaho has to do is defeat the Martians. That's the gulf between the two characters.

There's no conflict for Inaho. It's all black and white and simple. Slaine doesn't have simple choices and the show is punishing him for it. The writers of this show should have made a parallel between Rayet and Slaine and being accepted by the other side. Instead, they brushed aside the fact that Rayet's family rekindled the whole war that killed billions and tried to kill the Princess again and the whole matter was brushed aside like it didn't happen.

That's the most hypocritical message of this show "Hurr Durr!!! I hate Martians!!! I am the Martian largely responsible for restarting the whole war, but I fight for Earth now because Martians backstabbed me!!! It's all good and all is forgiven."

To criticize Slaine for fighting for Vers while ignoring Rayet's whole backstory is preposterous. I can't believe the writers overlooked that. I guess the director and writers' think no one would notice.

[ReddyRedWolf]

And Slaine goes for murder the hypotenuse!

Inaho is far too OP that Slaine emphasized the knights better work together or he'll kill them one by one.

[monster]

Originally Posted by lubczyk

Earth, who rejected him when he tried to join them and shot at him

That never happened.

The writers of this show should have made a parallel between Rayet and Slaine and being accepted by the other side. Instead, they brushed aside the fact that Rayet's family rekindled the whole war that killed billions and tried to kill the Princess again and the whole matter was brushed aside like it didn't happen.

That's the most hypocritical message of this show "Hurr Durr!!! I hate Martians!!! I am the Martian largely responsible for restarting the whole war, but I fight for Earth now because Martians backstabbed me!!! It's all good and all is forgiven."

To criticize Slaine for fighting for Vers while ignoring Rayet's whole backstory is preposterous. I can't believe the writers overlooked that. I guess the director and writers' think no one would notice.

This comparison is wrong. The Martians do not like Slaine while the Earthlings do not hate Rayet to begin with. And while Slaine is getting power and having a plan in mind for Mars against those in power, Rayet is helping Earth against Mars with no ulterior motive against those in charge.

So of course Rayet would be accepted more easily than Slaine. There is nothing hypocritical or preposterous about it. It is actually because their situations are different that that they got different treatments.

[Pegasai]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

I don't think it was jealousy, even though that's what everyone's running with. If the roses were going to be a romantic gesture, he would have brought red roses (he just went over flower language with Eddelrittuo). Instead he brought blue roses, probably considering the miracle of her awaking which he though would never happen. However, I think that when she said Inaho's name it basically brought back the fact that he's fighting a war out there, and doing things that will probably make her sad. So, he left without seeing her. Honestly, right now, considering her speech patterns and behavior, I don't think Asseylum is altogether yet and probably couldn't handle any kind of info dump from anybody. Another reason why he probably doesn't want Lemrina to know. So, it's a good thing that she takes it slow. Eddelrittuo knew he left them there and is worried for him.

Actually, in Eastern dramas and shows, dropping flowers after overhearing comments about another person from a romantic interest is a sign of jealousy...or at the least, a sign of shock. Like you said, in a vacuum, I don't think the flowers themselves were a romantic gesture--I don't think Slaine has the guts yet to openly make that kind of gesture to Asseylum just yet--but Slaine dropping them is a sign of jealousy, shock, and/or displeasure that Asseylum was talking/thinking about Inaho.

[Tormenk]

Well someone's going to die next episode with this sort of adverse battle conditions against the Terran crew.